Possibly, however, some of Sterns recent (2005+) games aren't even listed in the top 100. So, I regrettably have to disagree. I would like for this to happen since I prefer late 80 to late 90s games.

Gotcha, I didn't read the last of the first one.

I don't, but I would if I had the funds/space to have them.

+1

My collection is only limited because of $$ and space. Now, when my kids go off to college, I'll have more space (but probably a lot less $$).....maybe when I retire?

There's more and more new people getting into this hobby. The supply of older machines is staying the same (going down, actually). You can see this reflected in the price hikes of "affordable" titles lately.

Yes, new machines are having a positive swing on increasing the pool of used ones on the market (home collectors sell off older titles to make room/free up money). However, you won't see the numbers needed to sate the market for a used machine's price to drop.

More Demand = Higher Prices

I'd imagine, even the modern Stern machines will eventually go up in value, even the non top 100. This is primarily just a supply and demand thing. Once the availability of these games goes way down, due to routing, lack of parts, etc, then they will be more collectible. One of the ones I sold recently, Austin Powers isn't a top 100, and many here don't like it, but I'm willing to bet that's one of them that will go up eventually, as will their newer Playboy.

+1

I think in principle what you saying is correct. Timing as ever is the tricky point. That said if you look at the top 10 pins, maybe top 15, it is likely that these will hold value way longer than those beneath them.

Unless of course a new top 10 forms with yet to be made pins......... that would be great but seems unlikely as in the last decade only LOTR and SM have broken the top 10.

I would like to buy a NIB ( the 3rd Elvira please)just once, but I don't ever see me selling off my small collection to get newer pins.

I would also like to buy one NIB just because I would know what has been done to it... But I do love getting an old machine and finding a quarters log (TFTC 40,000 JP 70,000) but I'm not sure I could get rid of one.

No way is there/will there be a higher demand for new machines vs older ones. The average person that's looking for a pinball machine isn't looking to shell out 6 - 8 thousand dollars. They are looking to buy ones for a couple thousand.

Those looking for used machines (a number increasing) and the number of used machines available(a number decreasing), you get the average price increasing.

Thanks. CV is a game I use to love to play on location, but now that I have it at home it isn't holding my attention. I will most likely be selling it sooner rather than later. Actually looking to get something older like a Haunted House, it's more my style and a game I loved as a kid.

I don't think you will see pin prices start to significantly fall until the number of new people getting into the hobby begins to slow. It seems to me like the hobby is currently exploding like never before.

Price and space....every gameroom is different for these reasons. Some people want one pinball machine for the "look" in a gameroom and will only buy one for cheap. I bought an EM just to play around with old school stuff.
If everyone had TZ,CFTBL,STNG,AFM, in the gameroom they would all be the same. They made each machine to play different, that's the reason you just can't have one.
Old machines are not as much fun as new ones, but without an old one there to compare all machines would be rated 10.
Just saying old is not bad to have and not everyone wants the newest one.

What if the market for pinball machines doubles in size? or triples? The new apps that showcase pinball machines are bound to spark interest. Some people will be so interested that they want a TOTAN, or TOM, or whatever. If even a small percentage, tiny, decides they want the real thing, demand goes up. Just sayin...

In regards to new people joining the hobby and prices on older/non-DMD games, I wonder if the modern additions to the hobby (pretty much using myself as an example) will be more married to DMD-only/more "modern" games than people that have been in the hobby for a while. I really don't see, at least around here, any non-DMD pins out on route, and of the places where the operators own their own machines, I think the only non-DMD table I've seen has been BoP (and I think it's fun, even though you can't see 3/4 of the table).

Any other exposure to pinball outside of this is tilted towards modern titles too, though it was good to see on the Williams collection deal for consoles a wide range of tables available. I would like to play a Whirlwind or a Taxi or even a Space Shuttle as a result (and who knows, maybe I did when I was a kid)...but I can't just go to a bar to play them. Obviously different in different locales. Also as other people have mentioned, pushing against this is the fact that a lot of people just don't want to pay more than a couple thousand, which may force them into older titles even if they're not familiar with them.

Does a 2013 Camaro make a 1969 Camaro worth less? People like what they like and collect what they grew up with. Frankly I don't see pinball remaining viable at 7k-10k a pop. That is a complete deal killer for an operator and the home buyer cannot afford more than one or two of those a year.

The fact is the classic games are still the classics. Just because they are new does not mean they are better. The classics will never be made again and therefore their prices will be supported while the newer games will take the same depreciation hit that a new car takes.

Sure JPop got deposits on the 99 games, it will be interesting to see the conversion ratio to fully paid as the economy continues its spiral into the abyss.

as of late the price of 80's pins have been jumping up alot in my area.
im in northern ca. mostly system 11 pins. pinbot,high speed, comet etc. it seems more and more collectors and new pinheads are grabbing them up in my area anyhow. just my 2 cents.

You won't get a nice Fathom or Centaur for much less than $2000 these days. They're both from 1981.

How is market size going to double or triple for a game that is not relevant with the past 2+ generations? As much as I love pinball, this is the reality. After us, this will be as dead as an LP.

There are many many people that still buy and prefer games from the 60's and 70's. There are completely different forums for those folks. Pinside and its members is generally all about DMD games and that is fine, but there is much more to pinball than these games created in this span of time.

I'm still shocked that just because 99 JPop games were sold or maybe 1000 WOZ that this is some major accomplishment. Go through IPDB and look at the production numbers from 91-93. That is what a healthy pinball industry looks like. The one we have now is on life support. I would stake my entire collection on the fact that you will NEVER see TAF production numbers for a single game ever again, let alone for an entire year between Stern, JJP and Jpop combined.

Yes i think time together with the current new crop of pins will drop the price on the late 90's pins.

Luckily for me i collect or buy for the fun,enjoyment of pinball and not as an investment

Among those who still buy physical copies of music, vinyl is the preferred format. Myself included. CD production facilities are closing, while record pressing plants are currently backed up with orders for months.

Agree with the rest of your post, but the LP isn't a valid comparison.

I dunno, to me it seems that the pins from the 60's and 70's are too old and too rare to have market presence. I Think the solid state machines are holding their value or increasing. More players get into this collecting game every day.

And selling out 1000 machines is great, but not enough to "flood the market" with new games. There were what, 17k firepowers made? and it isn't super easy to find.

+1. I'll bite...90% conversion rate for original depositors...100% will be spoken for on release.

If - Two words. Retro gaming. As the apps hit the younger market, more interest in pins is inevitable, it's just numbers. How many dls of the PInball Arcade? Zen? They are playing Pac-Man again of all things! And they love the pinball simulations. If they had the chance to play the real thing, they would love it. My kids do already. I was there at the outset of all video gaming. Clothes and fashion move in cycles, and repeat. Perhaps pins and VGs will also.

If not - Inevitable slow death. Won't affect us though, as long as we can fix em.

I would love for the prices to drop though, because that means it will be easier for me to buy them! I just don't think it's gonna happen soon.

It is a valid comparison because how many 10-18 years today purchase their music on vinyl? Yes I understand those of us who remember how music is supposed to sound before it is digitally compressed into garbage prefer it, especially playing on a nice tube amp. But to those customers of today, its an unknown quantity.

My boys know pinball (ages 10 and 7) but only because of myself and their grandfathers. Their friends have no idea what pinball is and even when they have the opportunity to play they lose interest quickly. Pinball was a generational thing. It stood for rebellion, for "cool", for showing off to girls, for guys to look at sexy artwork. All of those things are gone with games of today. The artwork is a joke, the games aren't masculine or sexy, they are constant rehashes of what set the bar in the 90's or before. I would be embarrassed to have a Wizard of Freakin Oz in my gameroom. I wish things were different. I have loved this game for 30 years now, but its not.

All the "kids" 20 and under that see my machines flip out. They LOVE em. One of my good friends 8 year old son wouldn't get off bride of pinbot. He was begging his mom to get a machine for their house.

The worst thing for pinball is broken machines in the wild. And I almost NEVER see a row of machines where they are all working. This includes new games. The dave and busters near me has tron, rolling stones, and some stern casino game i am forgetting at the moment. Last time i went, 2 of the three were busted.

then practice more

OMG +1000. I was so chagrined to see kids pumping quarters into a SW with apparent broken eos switches among other things. They would play a ball and walk off. Right next to JP with a broken right flipper. No wonder they think pinball is boring.

Advertising. WMS is doing a giant new campaign right now. All over the internet called Pinball Arcade.

Great discussion. Pinball is exploding now like never before with the increase of quality with VP games, people are craving the real thing. As arcade video collecting hit a wall as far as prices go and has dropped, possibly due to people being numb to the "arcade machine experience" due to overexposure of video games everywhere. Pinball is not easily recreated anywhere except standing in front of a machine, the general public is now catching on and prices aren't dropping anytime soon.

I could care less, I don't buy pins as an investment.

Thats what killed it a decade ago. New manufactures have to get casual players back. Another topic though...

Right on, if you can keep that mindset this hobby becomes so much more fun!

Ok using my Pac-Man thinking, and your statement, logically one would conclude that EM games would be more popular since they are even more retro and simpler. oh and cheaper.

But that does not seem to be the case. It's almost as if the late 80's early 90's are the standard which draws new people in(assuming we consider current games similar to those). Maybe, hope against hope, the latest "fresh" batch could reset that. The big LCD monitor could give a lot more info and be easier to read/see/acknowledge than a DMD. It could even be more engaging.

I think you've got a lot of different factors at work here. Do you have new pins coming to the market? Yes. But most of these pins aren't being purchased by operators, they are being purchased by collectors. The existing pins that are out there from B/W for the most part were routed. Those pins were already paid off on route and made money for the purchaser. When the operators sold them off they had made their money off of them and whatever they got from them when sold was an extra. If they bought them at $3500, they weren't going to sell them for $2000. Who would buy them? Plus, the market to own a pinball machine wasn't there like it is now. You could go out on location and play the latest and greatest table for $.50, $.75, whatever, and you didn't have to haul it to your house, pay for the upkeep, learn to work on it, etc.

Fast forward to today. Pins for the most part aren't being purchased to be routed. Collectors are buying them for multiple reasons; you can't hardly find pinball in the wild anymore, kids from the 70's, 80's, and 90's are older and have the disposable income to afford to own pinball machines, plus they want to recapture a little of their youth, etc. For the most part, if you want to play pinball, true pinball, you need to buy a machine, or know someone who owns machines. Stern knows the collector market is where the money is to be made now, and are catering to that crowd. Gone are the days when they could sell a run of 10K machines to operators, they aren't out there anymore. So instead of selling 10K widgets for $50 for example, they are trying to sell 2000 widgets for $200. They've had to raise prices to make money, plus to satisfy the pinball collector rather than the operator, the LE's are sporting more toys, etc. Used NIB pins are not going to be sold like routed pins were, as they haven't made the purchaser any money. Sure, some have depreciated, but some are appreciating in value. If I spend $6K on a NIB pin, as a collector I'm not going to sell it for $1500, it hasn't earned me a dime, and it should be in damn good shape.

As pinball collecting becomes more popular, the demand for the older pins has gone up, and so have the prices. The alternate is a NIB pin. As people above have said, many new hobbyist aren't willing to spend $5K and up for a pin, so they look for the older machines, driving the price higher. The last of the operators for the most part know what the market is for routed games and as they get out of the business or turn over their "fleet", they can get more for their pins selling to hobbyist. It's a catch 22 for them, as it's harder and harder for them to make money on location with new pins due to the costs.

JJP and JPOP/Ben Heck have seen what collectors are willing to shell out and they are getting a piece of the market. JJP has said that they have a plan for their pins to be operated profitably, we'll see. I personally think that pinball in the "wild" is dead, and isn't coming back, but we'll see.

Bottom line is, since the supply of routed "cheap" pins is all but gone, I can't see how pin prices will go down. Pinball is now a boutique hobby market and will be priced accordingly.

Edit: I see as I wrote my book this thread has grown.

Actually, more and more "collectors" (aka, home pin buyers) are putting their pins on location to off-set some of their "hobby" expenditure.

Oh come on! I get sick of people spouting that line every time. You make people who are concerned about the value of their pins sound like they don't care about anything else! Look, if you pay 3 times the going rate for a pin then when you tire of it and want to sell/trade it for a different pin, you'll find your choices will be restricted or you'll have to throw a load more cash in on the deal. Maybe some people here can afford not to think about the value of their collection and just buy what they want but for most of us it is important and we couldn't afford to buy pins if we didn't make sure we bought and sold at the best prices.