Venlo
Quoted from Shredso:I think it's weird that there is no skill shot on an extra ball.
Always wondered about that too.
(Topic ID: 65010)
Linked Games
Jurassic Park
Data East, 1993-
Star Wars
Data East, 1992
Topic Gallery
Somers Point, NJ
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Very nice project!!
I don't like the very Low Bonus on the game.
It would be nice if any* full successful beaten Mode would feeds the Bonus.
For example:
1st FULL successful beaten Mode adds: 5.000.000
2nd: 10.000.000
3rd and any further adds: 15.000.000 within the same Ball.
...also i like the idea (youtube comment) to lock / unlock the mode useing the gun trigger.
Edit:
* I talk about the Modes: Spitter Attack, System Boot, Feed T-Rex, Escape Isla Nublar, Electric Fence & Bone Buster. So there would be a total Bonus of 75.000.000 if the player gets all possible (14 minimum) shots within ONE ball in all these modes i listed.^
The other Modes are all Time/Ball based with no Shot limits or Extra Ball and dosn't make sence to feed the Bonus. Or add Stanpede and Raptors Pit to the list if a player gets over 30 Hits/10 Jackpots!?
Talking about List(s): A extra Highscore List for T-Rex, Egg, Raptors Pit Jackpots and/or Upper Loop would be very cool too.
^^
Actually, this was something that I had thought about a while ago and forgot. It would be cool if for each successfully completed mode you got an extra bonus for the System Failure mode. My thinking is that you would have 1,000,000 per target plus an additional 1,000,000 for the modes that can be completed - Spitter Attack, System Boot, Feed T-Rex, Escape (which is the one that has the bad scoring, NOT System boot, sorry), Electric Fence and Bone Buster. You could have a target hit be worth up to 7,000,000 instead of just 1,000,000.
And I have no idea how hard this is to do, but I'm *always* someone who wishes that my games had much bigger high score charts and gave me data about how good I played compared to average. "You scored 125,000,000, 10% less than average!" or whatever. I'd *LOVE* to know that stuff and I do not understand why no game to date has been made to do that in a home setting.
A random first mode instead of automatic Stampede would be great.
Saving the T-rex ball-eating action until you actually get all 4 T-rex pit shots would be cool. However, that might detract from newbies' enjoyment of the game. Personally I would rather be rewarded with the action through skilled play.
Tweaking the T-rex side-to-side motion to roughly follow the ball sounds like a very cool idea.
Quoted from RonB:Would it be possible to have a separate high score for when the buy-in is used? I think that's a great feature on games that implement it. ( TZ comes to mind )
Is there a buy-in on JP?
Melbourne
Quoted from ChadH:If things go as I have planned... you guys are in for a treat soon.
Man, this is just great! I regretted selling my SW after seeing the great work done on it by Chad, now I'm excited waiting to play my JP that doesn't start on Stampede.
Well done Chad!
Quoted from jayhawkai:Is there a buy-in on JP?
Yes. There's no buy-in button, but you can "continue" your game for one credit.
Any way you could change the tri ball target spots in the difficulty settings. I kind like how tri ball is ready after ball 2 or 3 for my son who loves this game, but would be cool to adjust it for more skilled players. Random mode is great though. Great work.
Essex, ON
Quoted from Lethal_Inc:Any way you could change the tri ball target spots in the difficulty settings. I kind like how tri ball is ready after ball 2 or 3 for my son who loves this game, but would be cool to adjust it for more skilled players. Random mode is great though. Great work.
Yep, already implemented. Check my first post in this thread.
Just watched the video, looks great so far!
I love that multiball will actually take skill to achieve now. On a related note, I think the T-Rex ball-eating motion should only happen after completing the four T-Rex lights. It really would feel like a reward for skilled play instead of just eye-candy.
OT: Does anyone have a link for buying the Williams pop bumper 'spoons'? Sounds like a mod I need lol. Also think I might need to get a powerball for the captive ball. 
Quoted from Trace_on:Just watched the video, looks great so far!
I love that multiball will actually take skill to achieve now. On a related note, I think the T-Rex ball-eating motion should only happen after completing the four T-Rex lights. It really would feel like a reward for skilled play instead of just eye-candy.
OT: Does anyone have a link for buying the Williams pop bumper 'spoons'? Sounds like a mod I need lol. Also think I might need to get a powerball for the captive ball.
Keep it for multiball as well.
Quoted from Trace_on:OT: Does anyone have a link for buying the Williams pop bumper 'spoons'? Sounds like a mod I need lol.
I'd be curious, too. I see these at Marco, but which one?
http://www.marcospecialties.com/control/keywordsearch;jsessionid=347307CAB58CE3C4DA9C274C667E1ACC.jvm1?SEARCH_STRING=spoons
I also see this one at Pinball Life:
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=350
I haven't even combed through this thread yet but just wanted to say THANK YOU CHAD!!!
JP was my first pin and it's never leaving, can't WAIT to see how this thing fleshes out.
Now if you'll excuse me I have to go catch up with the rest of the thread and start re-learning the ruleset at home so I can make good valid suggestions 
I have a concern about the way this "fix" is implemented. The monitors should randomly re-select with each pop bumper hit. There is some strategy to this, in theory someone can hit the bumpers until the monitor they want is lit, and then they hit the scoop (it's probably pretty rare that people play this way though). In the video it looks like it is frozen to whatever monitor it randomly started with, which is not a fix.
Quoted from ChadH:Excellent suggestions! You and I think alike.
I didn't talk about it in the video but I already have implemented your #13. The same thing would happen to me, the ball kicks out of the Raptor Pit, go SDTM, and bounce around for a while and then drain after the timer ended. I have added a couple seconds to the timer so instead of being about 3 seconds, now it's about 5 seconds. Play testing will fine tune this one.
Keep them coming!
In addition to the extra time it should kill the ball saver as soon as a switch is hit other than the outlanes (I think it may already be doing that but not sure).
Quoted from tjsynkral:I have a concern about the way this "fix" is implemented. The monitors should randomly re-select with each pop bumper hit. There is some strategy to this, in theory someone can hit the bumpers until the monitor they want is lit, and then they hit the scoop (it's probably pretty rare that people play this way though). In the video it looks like it is frozen to whatever monitor it randomly started with, which is not a fix.
The only change is instead of the game starting with Stampede lit (and frozen) always, it picks one at random. All other rules around the pop bumpers changing them are still in place.
Fire up your Jurassic Park right now, launch a ball, and notice that Stampede is lit. Hit the pop bumpers, Stampede does not change as it is locked. Collect Stampede and now when you hit the pops it will rotate through the modes until you lock it with the upper right scoop.
All balls start with the lit mode being locked. This is not changed.
Again, the only change is that the start of the game will randomly pick the first mode instead of ALWAYS Stampede.
Quoted from NFK:Don't you think to add a lock / unlock for the mode useing the gun trigger would be a nice "secret" strategy option?
The same way it works on TFTC
Quoted from fattrain:The same way it works on TFTC
Does TFTC have any other way to lock a mode? Or is it just trigger?
Quoted from tjsynkral:There is some strategy to this, in theory someone can hit the bumpers until the monitor they want is lit, and then they hit the scoop (it's probably pretty rare that people play this way though)
I do.
Quoted from NFK:Don't you think to add a lock / unlock for the mode useing the gun trigger would be a nice "secret" strategy option?
Please no. That is one of the things that I really like about JP is that it forces you with the above strategy to have to hit the correct shot,whether that is the scoop that locks it or the scoop after an inlane roll over. Changing it essentially eliminates the entire use of the S-hole, and that is one of the toughest shots in the game. It gives you an option to lock it, it's just you've got to be good enough to hit that shot.
Oh, and one thought - NEVER allow Extra Ball to be lit first. That seems super cheap. I should need to hit the pops to cycle through stuff to "lock" that shot.
Quoted from goatdan:I do.
So do I. This will not be changing.
Quoted from goatdan:Please no. That is one of the things that I really like about JP is that it forces you with the above strategy to have to hit the correct shot,whether that is the scoop that locks it or the scoop after an inlane roll over. Changing it essentially eliminates the entire use of the S-hole, and that is one of the toughest shots in the game. It gives you an option to lock it, it's just you've got to be good enough to hit that shot.
I agree. This is why I asked if in TftC there was any other way to lock other than the door handle trigger. I like in JP that you have to hit the S-hole to lock it and adding the simple trigger pull would remove that important shot from the game.
Quoted from goatdan:Oh, and one thought - NEVER allow Extra Ball to be lit first. That seems super cheap. I should need to hit the pops to cycle through stuff to "lock" that shot.
Good point. Again, I agree and I will make sure it functions this way.
UPDATES:
1) Ball Launch Ball Save timer increased
Normally in JP, just like DESW, if the ball hits ONE switch then ball save turns off. But JP also has a MINIMUM ball time... meaning, if ball is launched and hits 10 switches and drains within the MINIMUM time, then you get ball save. The MINIMUM time in JP is really only like 4 seconds.
I have increased the MINIMUM ball time to about 10 seconds.
So now when you launch ball, it goes into the pops, bounces around, comes out and immediately drains. If that happens in 10 seconds, you get ball back. Again, it used to be 4 seconds which I think was way too low and probably almost impossible for the ball to make it to the drain that quickly.
Also, if the ball never hits a single switch AND it drains, it will activate ball save regardless of time.
2) Right Return Lane Timer slightly shortened
When the ball goes down the right return lane, both the scoops on the left side will light up (if they are not already) to collect their award for approximately 7.5 seconds. This timer has been slightly shortened to approximately 6 seconds.
7.5 seconds just felt a little bit too long to me since this is feature is supposed to be an award for an immediate shot to those scoops from the right return lane. Many times you could have the ball go down the right return lane, miss the scoops shots, have the ball bounce around and then finally make it in the scoop on another shot and collect. Also, 6 seconds closer matches the same scenario on other Data East games such as Star Wars where the left return lane lights Jabba's Bounty scoop for 6 seconds.
3) End Of Ball Bonus scoring increased
Original EOB Bonus logic:
Starts at 500,000 points.
7,500 points per switch.
Limit 2,000,000 points.
9X is max multiplier (18,000,000 absolute max bonus).
With this logic you have to hit 200 switches to max out bonus.
New EOB Bonus logic:
Starts at 500,000 points.
25,000 points per switch.
Limit 10,000,000 points.
9X is max multiplier (90,000,000 absolute max bonus)
With this logic you have to hit 380 switches to max out bonus.
I think this new logic helps make the End Of Ball Bonus actually make a difference and awards the player for a long ball time.
Just played mine a bit (thanks for helping distract me from my real world right now, yay pinball!) and I had two things that I remembered:
1) Auto ball save for a ramp shot that is directed to the right flipper that drains without hitting anything other than perhaps right outlane switch. I've never seen a JP that gets the ball over the ramp 100% of the time, and it seems like 1 of 10 times it dumps the ball off it goes down the right outlane without any chance to save it. Clearly, not the intention and makes the ramp shot silly and dangerous for now reason.
2) That dinosaur walking across the screen where you use the trigger to shoot it, a few things with that:
- I'd love to just know the logic behind it. What in the heck triggers it anyway? I got it twice in about 45 seconds (over two balls) in one game, and zero times in the next. Wha?
- How about adding that to the bonus? Whatever it's value is could be shown in the bonus under something like, "Dinos Contained" or whatever.
- It could also have a speed element contained to it. Shoot him faster, get more points.
3) I feel like the EOB bonus that you outlined above is now equally out of whack in the opposite way. What about making the ramp shots worth something (100k?) per shot and the Raptor Kickbacks worth something (6 Raptor Pit Kickbacks, 100k per!) and Egg shots (100k!) but keeping the switch bonus the same or similar? An average game on my machine - which admittedly is set up HARD - is about 150,000,000, but on the third ball you can constantly get really good bonuses thanks to multiball if you can hit the multiplier shots, which I usually can. A bonus of 10,000,000 which is about what I can get in the final one isn't so bad, a bonus of 45,000,000 will be game breaking as "just flail" will be worth a ton.
4) Egg shots / Raptor Shots / Ramp shots should do something in multiball. It's partially why I suggested them above, I realized just how I do dislike that in multiball you have only really two shots open (jackpots) and then 5 shots open (CHAOS). It would be really nice to have those other things count for something minor at least.
Quoted from ChadH:UPDATES:
1) Ball Launch Ball Save timer increased
Normally in JP, just like DESW, if the ball hits ONE switch then ball save turns off. But JP also has a MINIMUM ball time... meaning, if ball is launched and hits 10 switches and drains within the MINIMUM time, then you get ball save. The MINIMUM time in JP is really only like 4 seconds.
I have increased the MINIMUM ball time to about 10 seconds.
So now when you launch ball, it goes into the pops, bounces around, comes out and immediately drains. If that happens in 10 seconds, you get ball back. Again, it used to be 4 seconds which I think was way too low and probably almost impossible for the ball to make it to the drain that quickly.
Also, if the ball never hits a single switch AND it drains, it will activate ball save regardless of time.
if the ball never hits a single switch AND it drains, it will activate ball save regardless of time. should be a valet(sp?) playfield save and not count as even putting the ball into play. (most games even let you make a few slingshots as well) (on some games this lets you try for skill shots over and over)
Now a lot of the DE and Sega games had it some kind of MINIMUM ball time + they added time if you hit an outline.
Can it be set to give you the ball save if you hit the outline right at the end of the time?
Quoted from goatdan:3) I feel like the EOB bonus that you outlined above is now equally out of whack in the opposite way. What about making the ramp shots worth something (100k?) per shot and the Raptor Kickbacks worth something (6 Raptor Pit Kickbacks, 100k per!) and Egg shots (100k!) but keeping the switch bonus the same or similar? An average game on my machine - which admittedly is set up HARD - is about 150,000,000, but on the third ball you can constantly get really good bonuses thanks to multiball if you can hit the multiplier shots, which I usually can. A bonus of 10,000,000 which is about what I can get in the final one isn't so bad, a bonus of 45,000,000 will be game breaking as "just flail" will be worth a ton.
Are you sure about your EOB bonus? If you are getting a 10,000,000 EOB bonus, then under the new rules (considering the Bonus climbs at 3.3x the old rate) then you'd end up with approximately a 33,000,000 EOB bonus.
Do me a favor and play a bunch of games and jot down your actual EOB Bonus after every ball and if you can note the multiplier you got on them that would be cool.
These numbers aren't written in stone. I can tweak them as needed and will probably be with extensive play-testing.
Quoted from ChadH:Are you sure about your EOB bonus? If you are getting a 10,000,000 EOB bonus, then under the new rules (considering the Bonus climbs at 3.3x the old rate) then you'd end up with approximately a 33,000,000 EOB bonus.
Do me a favor and play a bunch of games and jot down your actual EOB Bonus after every ball and if you can note the multiplier you got on them that would be cool.
These numbers aren't written in stone. I can tweak them as needed and will probably be with extensive play-testing.
I just played a dozen games and maxed out the 2 million bonus exactly half the time on the balls I had multiball, multiplied to either 3X or 6X generally (admittedly, I was *trying* for those shots, which I don't always do, but this change would definitely make me try those shots a lot more often). After thinking about it while playing, here's the issue that I do see with it...
JP is *very* multiball centric in score. In general, you score over 50% of your points there. By giving these bonus points the same way it's essentially giving the multiball *another* bonus on top of the others. Thinking about it, my suggestion is if you keep it at these same points, make it so that multiball switch hits don't count for anything. The other bonuses that I get range from low to not much.
Played it a few more times, similar results - LOW bonuses on non-multiball balls, high ones on multiball balls. One other thing that I thought about with this - If the bonuses can be so much higher, I think that the bonus multiplier should only be + 1X each shot. Right now it 3X first shot, 6X second and 9X third. It's really not hard to max (when you don't have a rubber breaking near it blocking shots).
Hope that helps The other thing is my machine is set up NASTY like mentioned. I know people who have told me that they sell JP because they get to System Failure once every two or three games. Mine is no where near that, to put it into context mine still has the 500,000,000 machine score, and three or four top 10 IFPA players have played it basically as is.
How easy will this be to implement to other machines? Is it just a matter of changing EPROM's? If so when do you think you will have this available for others? Price? Thanks Chad, this is good stuff!
This game is all about getting multiball...that's where more than 50% of the points are...unless you make System Failure, then it is 50% of the points. Needs more balance in points!
Quoted from goatdan:Oh, and one thought - NEVER allow Extra Ball to be lit first. That seems super cheap. I should need to hit the pops to cycle through stuff to "lock" that shot.
This is now implemented.
Quoted from goatdan:I just played a dozen games and maxed out the 2 million bonus exactly half the time on the balls I had multiball, multiplied to either 3X or 6X generally (admittedly, I was *trying* for those shots, which I don't always do, but this change would definitely make me try those shots a lot more often).
You are obviously a MUCH better player than I am. Alright, we'll tone the EOB Bonus back.
Quoted from Pimp77:This game is all about getting multiball...that's where more than 50% of the points are...unless you make System Failure, then it is 50% of the points. Needs more balance in points!
Yes. I am hoping someone will analyze the scoring of all the modes and multiballs and offer up tweaks that will help balance them all. The goal is to make all the modes worth it. I don't want to have any throw away modes.
If someone could please do some points analysis, that would be great. Please keep it as simple as possible. There is very little room to add anything in the JP ROM. But scoring adjustments don't take up any space.
For example, in Star Wars I adjusted the initial Tri-ball jackpot shot from 10 million to 25 million. That was a simple change and it completely made Tri-ball now worth fighting for relative to the rest of the modes. These are the simple kinds of scoring adjustments I am hoping can be made. Need over all balance.
I still like the idea to awarded a player with higher bonus when all possible (most 3) shots in one mode are reached. I would even like to increase the X bonus number with the modes you collect within one ball (+3X for each mode).
This way i would shoot a lot more for the Bonus Multiplayer (which i never do).
Would it be possible to update the skill shot animations? Right now there is a distinctive pattern for each ball:
Ball 1: Dino moves right and left without stopping
Ball 2: Dino pauses while moving right, but moves left without stopping
Ball 3: Dino pauses in both left and right directions
Extra Balls: No animation
The ideal solution would be to chain together different patterns so it doesn't repeat. In other words, every time the dino moves left or right there would be a random pattern. For example:
Any Ball: Dino moves right w/ pause, left w/o pause, right w/o pause, left w/ pause, etc.
With that solution there would only need to be one skill shot programmed and it would be available for any ball, even extra balls. Now implementation of that is probably quite difficult if not impossible, but figured I would throw it out there.
Oh, and in case it isn't obvious, I will be picking up the updated software chip as soon as it is available. 
Quoted from goatdan:Chad, do you have Williams spoons on your pops? My guess is that between that and usually being able to start Chaos thanks to the Smart Missile, that is where that maxed bonus comes from.
I do not have Williams spoons in my pops.
I lowered the pops needed on Star Wars to complete AT-AT mode from 20 to 15 and the feedback I got was 100% positive. No one even brought up the spoons swap from what I can recall.
An update on my earlier suggestion on T-Rex ball-eating.
IMO the only times the T-Rex should to eat the ball are:
1. Completing the four "T-REX" letters
2. Starting Tri-Ball through the T-Rex Pit
What is everyone's opinion on Tri-Ball start? Would it be preferable to only start Tri-Ball through the T-Rex Pit, that way the T-Rex gets to show off its ball-eating ability? The Raptor Pit is already used for starting the Raptor 2-Ball mode. I feel like the T-Rex Pit provides a much more dramatic Tri-Ball start, allowing the player to watch the DMD animation. If you currently start it through the Raptor Pit, you don't get the full experience.
Man, I am getting excited about Chad's new code. I was considering trading off JP at some point but now it is off limits.
Quoted from NFK:I agree on 1. point, but I think Tri-Ball start with Raptors Pit should be like it is. It brings a lot more action to the gameplay than T-Rex only.
I agree. Besides with second Tri-ball you actually have to hit the raptor pit 3 times, right? Not that I'm good enough to get there yet... 
Quoted from ChadH:I do not have Williams spoons in my pops. I totally get that it brings those pops to life and I would like to do it to my JP. But I worry about making rules decisions around a physical modification to the game that probably 99% of the games do not have applied to them. I'm not sure how to handle this one.
I just changed the spoons on mine this week
Quoted from rad:I just changed the spoons on mine this week
Do you have a source for the Williams spoons?
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