(Topic ID: 294482)

Jumping Jack startup issues

By Sea_Wolf

2 years ago


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  • 49 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by Sea_Wolf
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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#1 2 years ago

Just picked up a 1973 Gottlieb Jumping Jack with known issues but I love the pin.

Here’s what it does on startup: GI lights come on along with the tilt light in the backbox. It’s set on free play so when you hit the start button the score motor continually runs and nothing resets including the score reels. The only thing that moves is the score motor.

You can stop the score motor by activating the U relay for the control bank relay reset. The bank resets but nothing else happens. If you manually activate the Ball Count/Player unit and it moves freely and will go to ball 1 player 1 and the flippers activate. Playfield is active but hitting targets or rollovers and no score added and no chimes although the score motor turns once and stops like it should. Score reels don’t move at all and the drop targets do not reset either.

Ball Count/Player unit does not reset by itself.

I cleaned the switches and checked the gaps on the Ball Count/Player unit but that’s it so far. I’ve double checked and reseated all the Jones plugs but still need to clean them up.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Danny

#2 2 years ago

Here's the reset sequence from the manual. How far through the list does it get? Does the SB2 relay trip (step 4)?
Jumping Jack reset sequence (resized).jpgJumping Jack reset sequence (resized).jpg
/Mark

#3 2 years ago

Mark, it gets through step 4 and then that’s it’s. The SB2 relay pulls in but that bank does not reset, nor does anything else and the score motor runs continuously.

You can stop it by manually tripping the ‘U’ relay but neither the score reels move nor does the Player Unit reset.

I can take a more detailed look for loose or broken off wires on that relay bank later.

Thanks for the response.

#4 2 years ago

I also should have mentioned that when you manually trip the ‘U’ relay, the relay bank with the huge solenoid where the SB2 relay, Game Over relay etc are resets.

#5 2 years ago

Once the SB2 relay fires the U relay should follow.
Jumping Jack U relay 2 (resized).jpgJumping Jack U relay 2 (resized).jpg
Check the SB2 relay switch in the U relay path, and the other two switches in red.

#6 2 years ago

Looking forward to checking those switches.

Will report back soon. Thanks Mark

#7 2 years ago

Following so I can find tgis later. Mine is doing something very similar.

#8 2 years ago
Quoted from Tomass:

Following so I can find tgis later. Mine is doing something very similar.

Thank goodness for all the smart people on here.

Me, not so much. My Pinball IQ is less than my weight and I’m a pretty skinny guy.

#9 2 years ago

Well, I checked and cleaned the P5A switch on the Player Unit as well as the 4B score motor switch. Both are opening and closing as they should when manually stepping up the Player Unit stepper and the Score motor cam.

When the game is on and the Score motor is running you can manually step up the Player Unit and eventually it will activate the U relay which then resets the relay bank but the score motor continues to run and nothing changes.

#10 2 years ago
Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

Both are opening and closing as they should when manually stepping up the Player Unit stepper and the Score motor cam.

They're working mechanically but you don't know if they're working electrically. Also check the SB1/2 switches and probably the jones plug between the cabinet and backbox.

There are just three switches in the U relay path. You should be able to verify that they're making good electrical contact with jumpers, a bulb tester or a multimeter.

#11 2 years ago

Thanks Mark. Will check within an hour or so.

So if I’m understanding correctly the P5A switch with the Orange-Green wire is responsible for resetting the Player Unit to Ball 1 Player 1 and therefore resetting the score reels to zero?

#12 2 years ago

Never mind my last question. I see in the manual that the score reels reset through a switch in the the P3 stack of the Player Unit.

#13 2 years ago

Mark, I Checked continuity of the switches we discussed and one of them shows no continuity after multiple tests with the DMM. It is the P5A switch on the player unit. The others all measure between .2 and .6. The P5A didn’t register anything. Im guessing that it must stem from the Orange-Green wire because the white wire on the same switch with the jumper tests fine to the other switch it’s jumpered to.

Any thoughts on the next step? Jumper wires and DMM are ready.
Thanks
B0BD3054-F785-4280-8091-372F461351E5 (resized).jpegB0BD3054-F785-4280-8091-372F461351E5 (resized).jpeg

#14 2 years ago

Does the U relay fire if you jumper around that switch? Either way you'll need to get the closed resistance of that switch down to an ohm or less. It could be dirty, or there could be a cold solder joint, or the contacts may be loose/oxidized/not making good contact with the leaf, etc.

Note that the P5A and P5B switches are both connected to the red-white wire (at 15I and 12I on the schematic).

#15 2 years ago
Quoted from MarkG:

Does the U relay fire if you jumper around that switch? Either way you'll need to get the closed resistance of that switch down to an ohm or less. It could be dirty, or there could be a cold solder joint, or the contacts may be loose/oxidized/not making good contact with the leaf, etc.
Note that the P5A and P5B switches are both connected to the red-white wire (at 15I and 12I on the schematic).

Yes the U relay fires when I jumper the P5A switch but the score motor still runs and the score reels don’t reset nor does anything else.

Curious Why is it that when I test the switch where the Orange White wire comes into the U relay it reads high (15.5 ohms)?

I’ll go over the solder joints and contacts again.

#16 2 years ago
Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

Why is it that when I test the switch where the Orange White wire comes into the U relay it reads high (15.5 ohms)?

I don't know what you're measuring (where are the two meter probes?). But often when you observe a resistance of 10-30 ohms it's because you're measuring the resistance not through a switch you're interested in, but in the path through the solenoid or relay coil and the transformer, or the long way around through the circuit. That's why you measure resistance instead of continuity.

#17 2 years ago
Quoted from MarkG:

I don't know what you're measuring (where are the two meter probes?). But often when you observe a resistance of 10-30 ohms it's because you're measuring the resistance not through a switch you're interested in, but in the path through the solenoid or relay coil and the transformer, or the long way around through the circuit. That's why you measure resistance instead of continuity.

Gotcha. The two probes were on the wire near the solder tabs of the switch on the U relay where the Orange Green wire comes in and the other Purple-Green wire on that switch.

Does the Green-White-Red wire and the Orange-Green wire come together on a switch on the SB1 relay? I can’t tell without taking more apart. If so they don’t register on the Ohm meter.

What do you think?

#18 2 years ago
Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

Does the Green-White-Red wire and the Orange-Green wire come together on a switch on the SB1 relay?

Yes. It's shown on the schematic in reply #5 above. It's in parallel with the switch on the SB2 relay.

#19 2 years ago
Quoted from MarkG:Yes. It's shown on the schematic in reply #5 above. It's in parallel with the switch on the SB2 relay.

I thought so but when I measured ohms between the 2 it didn’t register anything just like the P5A switch on the Player Unit.

What do you think the reason is that the score motor continually runs and the Score reels won’t reset even when we jumpered the P5A switch and got the U Relay to fire?

Is it that we are still not getting power to the Player Unit to get it to reset on its own?

#20 2 years ago

Once the S/Start relay fires (step 1 in reply #2) and the SB1/SB2/Reset Control relays fire (step 4 in reply #2) the first two switches on the right side below should close and the Player Unit should start advancing as pulses from Score Motor switch 1A (in red) reach the Add Player Unit solenoid through normally closed switches P3F and P4E (also on the Player Unit):
Jumping Jack Add Player Unit (resized).jpgJumping Jack Add Player Unit (resized).jpg
After a few Player Unit steps the P3F switch will open to prevent the Player Unit from stepping further until the Player 1 Score Reels reset and their four Runout switches all close. Then the Player Unit should take one more step where the P3F switch closes, but the P4E switch opens to force the Player 2 Score Reels to reset. Once Player 2 has reset the Player Unit can continue stepping which will close the P4E switch.

#21 2 years ago

Went to clean and check switches on Score Motor 1a and then watched the switches as I powered up the machine again and noticed that the 1a switches are never actuated nor are the switches on 1c, 2c, 3c and 4c.

What’s up with that? Here’s a short video. The last 5 seconds shows 1c and 1a not engaging.

#22 2 years ago

Score motor cam set screw came loose and the cams are riding too low. Adjust cams and tighten set screw.

#23 2 years ago
Quoted from pinballdaveh:

Score motor cam set screw came loose and the cams are riding too low. Adjust cams and tighten set screw.

I’m assuming the set screw you are referring to is the one directly in the center of the cam. Just wondering what’s the best way to tighten it. Thanks a bunch for pointing that out. I completely overlooked it.

Like a noob I paid more attention to everything else other than the score motor.

Disregard the picture. I though I was missing a metal post where the arrow points.

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#24 2 years ago

Never mind I found the screw. Thanks again and thanks to Mark G and his time I wasted. I did learn things though.

Hoping to mark this thread closed soon.

#25 2 years ago

Well that did the trick. Score motor cams where they are supposed to be thanks to pinballdaveh and the score reels reset. Now the score motor runs because the drop target bank tries to reset but it doesn’t. Don’t want to burn up that big solenoid but here’s a video.

#26 2 years ago

Turns out that one of the 2 screws that keep the reset arm for the drop target bank had gotten in front of the arm and blocked it from resetting the targets. Now it resets fully and the big solenoid fires like it should but it keep on firing now and won’t stop

I need to figure out what triggers that solenoid. Looks like a switch on the U relay and a switch on Score motor 1b possibly?

This is what I’m dealing with now. Checked and cleaned the 2 switches mentioned and nothing changed.

#27 2 years ago

The switches on U and Motor 1B are the ones that reset the drop target bank coils during game reset.
Be careful because this circuit runs on 120 volts

If it's not You can use Alligator clip jumper wires to diagnose this kind of problem.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-big-shot-repair#post-6305153
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features
Example of a pinsider actually doing this https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/red-baron-tech-question#post-5858156

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png
#28 2 years ago

Looks like I had it backwards. The drop target reset solenoid keeps firing because the score motor keeps running. I blocked the 3rd switch on Score Motor 4B and that stopped the solenoid continually firing.

Now just need to figure out what’s keeping the score motor running. Back to MarkG last post.

#29 2 years ago
Quoted from HowardR:

The switches on U and Motor 1B are the ones that reset the drop target bank coils during game reset.
Be careful because this circuit runs on 120 volts
If it's not You can use Alligator clip jumper wires to diagnose this kind of problem.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-big-shot-repair#post-6305153
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features
Example of a pinsider actually doing this https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/red-baron-tech-question#post-5858156
[quoted image]

Thanks Howard. Before I do that, I want you to read my last post and tell me if that makes any difference to your post.

I should have said that when I blocked the 3rd switch on score motor 4B, that stopped the firing of the U relay which in turn stopped the solenoid on the drop target reset to stop firing.
Danny

#30 2 years ago
Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

Thanks Howard. Before I do that, I want you to read my last post and tell me if that makes any difference to your post.
I should have said that when I blocked the 3rd switch on score motor 4B, that stopped the firing of the U relay which in turn stopped the solenoid on the drop target reset to stop firing.
Danny

My post would apply to you only if the target bank was failing to reset.

#31 2 years ago
Quoted from HowardR:

My post would apply to you only if the target bank was failing to reset.

No it resets fine but what’s happening is that the score motor is continually running. We got the score reels and targets to reset properly but the last thing is finding out why the motor still runs.

#32 2 years ago

Even though the Player Unit stepper tries to reset on startup, I’m guessing that’s not reaching its home position and keeping it on Game Over and the score motor running.

Not sure where the Player Unit home position is on this pin.

#33 2 years ago
Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

Not sure where the Player Unit home position is on this pin.

when the cam 5 switch stack is being lifted by the cam lobe.

#34 2 years ago
Quoted from baldtwit:

when the cam 5 switch stack is being lifted by the cam lobe.

Thanks for that. So the player unit stepper IS resetting to the proper home position. Score reels reset fine but the game stays in Game Over mode and the score motor still won’t stop running.

#35 2 years ago

If your score motor runs when it shouldn't, one or more of these switches/relays is keeping it running. Which one(s)?
Or, how far is it getting in the startup sequence that MarkG posted?
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/jumping-jack-startup-issues#post-6316517

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png
#36 2 years ago
Quoted from HowardR:

If your score motor runs when it shouldn't, one or more of these switches/relays is keeping it running. Which one(s)?
Or, how far is it getting in the startup sequence that MarkG posted?
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/jumping-jack-startup-issues#post-6316517
[quoted image]

Thanks Howard. We are now through step 6. Player Unit resets to home position and score reels reset properly to zero but the score motor keeps running.

As a result of it running it never starts a game and the drop target bank keeps resetting so I have to turn the power off so not to burn up the big coils on that bank.

#37 2 years ago
Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

We are now through step 6

Step 6 is "The control bank is reset by a switch on motor 3C through a switch on U relay"

By "through step 6", do you mean that the control bank resets or not?

#38 2 years ago
Quoted from HowardR:

Step 6 is "The control bank is reset by a switch on motor 3C through a switch on U relay"
By "through step 6", do you mean that the control bank resets or not?

Yes. I’m going to post a quick video of what it’s doing.

#39 2 years ago

Here’s what’s happening Howard:

You can hear the player unit and score reels reset before the Drop target reset coils going off. The U relay fires as the big drop target reset solenoids fire. I assume that’s from the 3rd switch on Score Motor 4B being activated with every turn of the score motor.

#41 2 years ago

Thanks Howard, I may have to talk to you on the phone sometime in the next few days to make sure I don’t mess this up jumpering.

#42 2 years ago

The problem could be as simple as the control bank reset coil fuse is bad.

#43 2 years ago
Quoted from pinballdaveh:

The problem could be as simple as the control bank reset coil fuse is bad.

That would be nice. I’ll check that out when I get home. Thanks

#44 2 years ago

Assuming it’s the one circled in my pic. The fuse is good and the fuse holders are tight and look good.

2180EE40-A8B2-4C6A-9A0F-5B0E918C0F78 (resized).jpeg2180EE40-A8B2-4C6A-9A0F-5B0E918C0F78 (resized).jpeg
#45 2 years ago

From PM:

Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

I can understand schematics to a certain point but I’m not 100% sure where to put the clips from the diagram you posted.

Did you read the links I posted in https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/jumping-jack-startup-issues#post-6320131

#46 2 years ago

Yes, that’s what I was referring to in the Private message that you quoted.

FWIW if you manually reset the control bank you can play a game but there are multiple issues on this pin. Random scoring, bonuses prematurely lit, kick out holes at the top not ejecting. 10 point relay locking on etc...

I’m sure the first order of business is getting the control bank to reset. Maybe that will take care of some of the issues. I’ve checked for N.O. Switches that look like they are gapped too close and other possible causes to no avail so far. I’m sure I’ll eventually get it figured out. Thanks

#47 2 years ago
Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

Yes, that’s what I was referring to in the Private message that you quoted.

Fair enough. If you'd like to try a phone call (and you have a paper copy of the schematic), send me your cellphone number in a private message and I'll make a first reply with a text message.

#48 2 years ago
Quoted from HowardR:

Fair enough. If you'd like to try a phone call (and you have a paper copy of the schematic), send me your cellphone number in a private message and I'll make a first reply with a text message.

Will do

#49 2 years ago

Thanks to a phone call from HowardR i can now mark this resolved.

Turns out that after Howard had me test everything in the circuit it came down to the last thing we tested, Score Motor 3C 2nd switch. The middle switch had an extra wide gap along with the actuator plate being a hair misaligned causing those switches to not fully open and close.

Thanks a bunch to Everyone who weighed in on this. I learned a lot. Now just some weird scoring issues to fix.

Danny

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