I don't see why Stern would want to get involved in this. They seem to have a stable model in place and there are tons of themes to work from.

There is no doubt JPOP is a talented designer and a creative person. But this whole thing feels like funding someone's personal art hobby and not an actual business venture. Hope I'm wrong but even under the best case scenario, machines in the hands of customers is many years away.

The saddest thing about this and Skit-B is there is well over a million dollars that could have gone to good pinball companies. Imagine what that could do for the manufacturers who are actually making games, part suppliers, even modders.

https://w3.courtlink.lexisnexis.com/cookcounty/FindDock.asp?NCase=&SearchType=2&Database=1&case_no=&Year=&div=&caseno=&PLtype=2&sname=popadiuk&CDate=

Why is this investor such a huge secret? You want someone to sign a legal document limiting your legal options, commit to more money, but you can't even state who you are?

If you're a legitimate business with a legitimate business proposal, you don't hide in the shadows.

Him being at the show makes it easier for a process server.

If this mystery investor has all this money and the ability to produce the machines, why do they need all this money upfront? Why not just make the machines and sell them to the public when they're done?

This is one of the worst deals I've ever seen and I've seen some really bad ones.

To be clear, Pintasia is a third party, and is not a part of Zidware the company or their liabilities.

If this is the case, why was the first e-mail insistent on not suing Zidware? I mean you're just a third party that is not a part of Zidware as you say. Just a licensee who worked out an agreement with Zidware. Why make it a condition of the agreement that you can't sue a company that you are not a part of? Stern doesn't care if I sue Marvel over a dispute.

And who exactly gets their machines first if they are built? It appears there is an overlap between the members of this new company and current customers of Zidware. Are these going out in order of who paid first, or do the employees of Pintasia get first crack? I think it's a fair question if the money runs out before the run is finished.

It sounds like the machine is very close from yours and Pintasia's earlier posts. And John is not involved in any business decisions as was stated in the e-mail which should free up his plate quite a bit.

If fielding lawsuits requires every waking minute of his day, perhaps he's not the right choice as a consultant. Or perhaps the timeline should be based on when he has the free time to consult.

It just seems like playing both sides of the fence. On one hand you're this 3rd party licensee with no interest in Zidware and who John has no control over because it shields you from his liabilities. On the other hand, there was an agreement sent out requiring people to give up their right to sue this company that you state has no interest in your own. I feel those two things contradict one another a bit.

My feelings are that this proposal would receive a much warmer reception if that language was removed from the agreement. Since it was stated that Zidware has no interest in Pintasia, it should be of no consequence.

So why are you demanding people not sue Zidware? You keep saying their accounting is not your problem and their business is completely separate from yours. Yet you seem to be really invested in protecting them.

If this is about the license, you know that as a licensee, you are given certain protections under today's bankruptcy law. And if that is still an issue, just buy the IP directly from him right now.

If part of the agreement states you can't sue John or Zidware, he is tying himself to him. You can't claim to be this wholly independent company when you put stuff like that in the agreement.

Worth mentioning that if the amount is under $10,000, you can file in small claims in Illinois. You don't need an attorney for that.

Also you can file a complaint with the Illinois Attorney General at the link below. They are surprisingly good at following up on things.

https://ccformsubmission.ilattorneygeneral.net/

"Needlessly distracted"? That's disgusting.

There are laws that protect creditors in these situations. You can't just give away your assets to avoid a liability.

No one here knows the details of the arrangement and it definitely is a gray area. It'll likely come up in the upcoming lawsuits and potential bankruptcy.

It's one of the reasons I think a clean break from John would be more beneficial. Either buying the assets in bankruptcy or just creating an entirely new IP with people like ZombieYeti who in my opinion is the talent in this game.

I believe that was the local police and the reason was that no one in the State of Michigan had filed a complaint. The FBI would handle the out-of-state claims.

There is no harm in filing a complaint with the Illinois Attorney General (https://ccformsubmission.ilattorneygeneral.net/). Enough complaints would spark an investigation and for Illinois' many flaws, they are decent at going after consumer fraud. This does not cost anything but perhaps some time.

Also many of the people who are out money are out under $10,000. They can file in small claims court and don't really need a lawyer for that.

It will take someone who is in it for the right reasons with a ton of money to risk. As it stands, most of the boutique companies that have come along seem to love to create concepts but don't care much for the part in bringing them to fruition. They love soaking in the adulation from the community when they post a potential feature but don't like having to answer to customers who want to know why their game is a year late. They basically want to turn their personal hobby into a business with other people taking the financial risk.

I know it's a pretty pessimistic outlook, but I think boutique pinball is just about dead. You'll get an occasional company like Spooky that puts together the right team and makes it work, but that's going to be the exception. The financials and logistics just don't make sense most of the time.

Take a look at these recent JPop events. Assuming the new company's intentions are pure, does anyone really think a new business with no prior experience in mass pinball manufacturing is not only going to produce hundreds of high quality games, but also turn such a profit that they can make buyers and vendors whole? Stern has decades of experience in this field and I doubt they've ever earned a cool million in profit off one of their titles.

Why is your company so passionate about people not suing John and Zidware? Your company seems awfully concerned about liabilities you claim you're not responsible for.

They could still keep the license. The royalty fees would help satisfy outstanding creditors.

So is that really the person in those stories/videos because the Pintasia person seemed to imply it was not?

I think everyone is being a little too hard on it it. The comparison to Wizard Blocks was spot-on. If someone brought that to a show I don't think it'd receive the same criticism.

Are you talking a finished game I can have shipped right away? Because I would consider just about any game that I can go out and actually buy.

I know making a pinball machine is expensive, but I am really confused as to where the money went. If this prototype was filled with a bunch of unique features and toys, I could undertand how you'd blow through all that money. But it's pretty bare bones.

Then throw in the fact that he wasn't paying for the programming, wasn't paying for the artwork, and wasn't paying other vendors. Was he just paying himself a 6-figure salary to sit around and play arts and crafts a few hours a week?

The word plausible is the issue. The idea that a brand new company is going to produce hundreds, if not thousands of high quality pinball machines that are more complex than most of what we're seeing today is a stretch. On top of that, they are going to be so profitable that they can pay down almost a million dollars in outstanding JPop debt. Mind you, I don't think there has been a single game made in well over a decade that turned over a million dollars in profit.

You're new and want to be optimistic about this. But the financial stuff is just reality. Barring some dramatic changes to the cost of parts, labor, and the technology that runs these machines, there is nothing plausible in this.

And that's not a knock on the new company. The fact they got the machine to the show and even got it running is cool. I don't know how anyone can blame them for the status of a machine that they've barely touched. But I think most of the negativity is more toward John and what the heck he was doing the past 4 years if this is all he has.

That would be good news for people trying to pierce the corporate veil.

I know some people believe that he's just bad at business. But in my opinion, I think it's much more nefarious.

John isn't as stupid as people make him out to be. He convinced a lot of people to give him a lot of money. He convinced a lot of highly skilled people to work for him for free (didn't Bill mention he paid his overdue rent too?). He convinced a lot of intelligent people to sign ludicrous NDAs to keep them silent. He convinced a lot of people to rush out and defend him any time someone asked a reasonable question on the project. And finally, he paid himself a hefty salary while producing little in return. The fact is that everyone got screwed on this project but him. He's the guy who made a lot of money over the last few years. While I don't believe this was some long con, I do think he's a lot more Keyser Soze than Verbal Kint.

My belief changed when the game was put out at the show. There is no way a man with his experience in the pinball industry could put in 40 hour weeks for 4 years with a large cash reserve and produce so little. We have hobbyists on this board who have built fully functioning games in their basement on weekends in far less time. That's not bad business, it's lack of effort.

He paid himself a lot of money to rent out some space, buy some cool toys, and play arts and crafts for 4 years. Tough to claim he lacks business sense when he's the guy who holds the bag of money at the end.

The crazy thing about that rant is he wants everyone to feel sorry for the only guy in the whole deal who made money. Everyone else involved is out money. From those who placed orders on machines to vendors that were stiffed to contractors that weren't fully paid. Heck don't forget the hours and hours of time people put into trying to salvage the project at the end.

But apparently those are the bad guys. The good guy is the one who was making a substantial salary over the years who didn't produce anything of value. Who misled paying customers and was such a coward that he refused to call people back and give them accurate information on the status of the project and their money. The mental gymnastics needed to turn JPop into the victim is mind-boggling.

I still think a concerted group effort to get the DA involved would be beneficial. Sporadic complaints probably doesn't get them interested. But 50-100 people all contacting the DA in short order might get at least a cursory investigation.