What exactly is "the whole situation" at this point? From reading the past 3 pages it sounds like
1) Some people have asked for refunds and are being ignored
2) JPop continues to miss deadlines (although still seems to be making progress on games, just slow)
3) There are apparently vendors that JPop owes money to?

Has #3 been confirmed and are we talking about a large amount of money which is the concerning part?

Does this sum it up? Or am I missing other major red flags?

How am I stirring the pot? I spent 45 minutes reading the last 3 pages before posting. I was just asking if I'm missing something else.

Oof. I see. Although, I thought this was the "production facility", no? Things looked organized from these pictures. Per John "Here are some “inside pics” of our massive woodworking factory and auxiliary build space".

https://magicgirldev.wordpress.com/2015/02/06/magic-production-facility/

Maybe it's not "dead" but considering the amount of time that has passed I would have thought the game would be much further along. There still appears to be a ton of work left to do and the money and resources left available to John is questionable. Also, the fact that John appears to be ignoring refund requests is absolutely concerning.

No offense, but Jack has not conquered anything. I'm glad he delivered WOZ's to those who put money on the line years in advance (despite the BS they had to put up with including the 75th Ruby Red edition). However, he still has to deliver a bunch of THLE's as well to a lot of customers who have also put money on the line years in advance.

JJP has to be deep in the red at this point. DEEP. Seriously, if I had money in on a pre-order right now I would be seriously concerned. JJP had enormous startup costs. They endured the board issues and whatever costs were associated. They endured the lengthy delays to getting a game out the door. There is a reason they desperately needed an outside investor to step in. Unfortunately for them (and the new investor) it has been the same story with Hobbit. We're at almost a full year delay from when it was originally targeted for delivery (July 2014.) It costs a lot of money to keep paying for a large factory and for the workers (and everything else.)

Who still believes game #3 from JJP will ship in 2015? Do you really think JJP can afford to manufacture and ship #3 (cutting into Hobbit sales to boot) in 2015? JJP is likely the next major fiasco for pinball on the horizon IMHO.

A bit off topic but not as much as one would think. The topic being pinball startups finding it VERY difficult to turn a profit.

I sincerely hope that if and when JJP's current run ends that you will be revealed as the disgusting shill you have constantly served to be.

The fact is a lot of startups (including JJP) are finding pinball manufacturing to be a VERY difficult business to make a profit in. Sadly, the pattern is showing repeatedly that those who ask questions are shouted down and random buffoons like yourself who think they're such good friends of the various proprietors act out of stupidity as shills despite having zero common sense in regards to financials.

^But this is apparently the problem. This IS why it has likely already failed. I doubt JPop will be so open about what money is left at this point and I see no way he gives up control of so many aspects of this project.

I'm sure you're a great programmer, but this project certainly appears to be well beyond just needing a first class programmer to save it. Although very brave of you to insert yourself into such a heated situation that may very well turn into something criminal.

Just to add to other's comments, this is precisely the kind of secretive BS that gets folks to feel like they're missing out on something and foolishly risking their money. Please look up the definition of "shill". You are playing the role to a tee.

PS - Also, how about none of you pre-order folks come back on Pinside whining about losing your money and basically asking for the larger community here to feel sorry for you and support you. Being selective in the information you decide to share is BS.

Just curious but why is any "marketing plan" needed? I thought the number being made is fixed and now sold out? Or no, that's not true, anyone can still buy any one of the ZidWare games?

So the point of the marketing plan is to raise the exclusivity of owning a Zidware game and games will continue to be very limited in production?

And you're alluding to the point that the game(s) is much further along than anyone has realized, and at some point in the near future they will be revealed to the world? Thus, a "marketing plan" has come together?

It is crazy how serious some folks take posting on Pinside. Let Kaneda post whatever. If you're tired of him use the Ignore feature. To give him so much attention is silly because he probably thrives on it. Tracing IP's and acting like some huge conspiracy is going on is crazy too. It's extremely easy to cloak one's IP address if desired for just a few dollars a year. Better to not push a person to that point and be able to know who they are and just moderate them as need be.

A classic case of "you know you take Pinside too serioius when . ."

My 2 cents.

I think the real joke here is that John would feel the need for a PR person period. He needs less attention on himself right now, not more.

If someone had actually told him his game was not coming until 2017 he may have a heart attack before they could actually surprise him with his game. #PRfail

Given the seriousness of the situation with John not even responding to refund requests (or any request) can you elaborate on what lie you caught him in?

Given John's erratic behavior and inability to make any real progress (not to mention you clearly can't get a refund if you want one) who in their right mind would pre-order a game at this point?

Combine that with the fact that John will never give up control of any of the work to date and this solution is quickly ruled out I think.

Beat me to it.

Seriously Iceman, I can't believe there is any scenario where you would consider loaning more money to John. The best thing you can do is get law enforcement involved and a lawyer. Explain that John has reneged on his agreement to refund and you've sent numerous requests. More pressure needs to be put on John to start being honest and transparent.

Why have the folks involved here not opened a criminal complaint in John's city and have direct contact with a local Detective at this point? What are people waiting for to happen? Are folks not following the Skit-B situation? Every single pre-order should contact the local police and file a complaint (assuming you've requested a refund and he has ignored your request.) Have I missed reading about people taking action? Don't wait another minute.

It's called advice and it is being offered in light of the similarities to the Predator debacle. The only people who have gotten money back on that are those that were still within the window of time for doing a credit card charge back. Thus, I think it's sound advice that people should not be waiting on a miracle to happen here. This also seems to be much more than simply bad business acumen. I see many folks stating they've sent multiple refund requests with zero response from John. If that doesn't bother you then fine. Do nothing.

Pretty much identical to the questions I said Kevin needed to answer. If John doesn't want to be sued, he better have a very accurate accounting of everyone's money to show it all went directly towards producing these game(s). Unfortunately, this will get very complicated because John kept starting new projects before finishing the first. So someone who financed game #1 may suddenly have been financing the development of game #2 (how he splits up his accounting for time spent on each game will be a mess.) Also, unlike Kevin I'm sure John was smart enough to actually incorporate so his personal finances are likely protected.

In the end though, I'm not sure there are any criminal charges here? He wasn't using someone else's IP for free and he didn't misrepresent anything in order to get people's money?

If that was criminal I think Jack could have been sued as well, no? (a few times.)

I certainly agree with you here but the point is when did JPop start ignoring refund requests? Before or after the last "promised date" for something? It's up to the detective(s) to determine criminal intent but I suspect it will be harder in this case than it was in Skit-B's case.

While I certainly feel bad for pre-order people on one hand, they knew the risks (even if they didn't give those risks enough credence.) If you think any manufacturer relying on pre-order money is immune to going bankrupt you're wrong. Accept that you're taking a real risk. The manufacturer obviously does not have to disclose to you how financially healthy they are. When you see red flags don't dismiss them just because the next guy (or gal) does. History will repeat itself as we're seeing here.

Which design are you referring to? There hasn't been a flipping whitewood yet, right? So aside from some cool artwork and theme what else is there? Stern would buy incomplete game designs? And do you think John considered BOM cost in his designs like Stern does? And how do the pre-order folks not feel screwed regardless since they were expecting a game with exclusivity and they paid significantly more than what Stern could sell them for.

No way this option happens despite it being a nice thought that someone would bail John out.

What are the 5 phases of grief again? Oh yes, stage 1, denial.

Given what he has shown, I just cannot imagine where a million dollars would have gone. IMO, he had to be paying himself a large salary. I have to think that opens himself up to damages (personally) if the court does not find that amount of money to be very reasonable.

Also, if John could take another month or two and put each of these games as close to a finished whitewood as possible I could foresee a large auction. Auction off all prototypes, artwork drawings, translights, playfields, etc (everything!) and take all of the money raised from that and distribute it back to the pre-order people. It might bring back a good chunk of the money.

Hey! I've looked over your website and your artwork is incredible! Great stuff!! Welcome to Pinside.

For others:
http://www.zombieyeti.com/

I'm confused what he could possibly sue for? I would have assumed the NDA was only in regards to not revealing game info that he himself did not reveal first? Since when is simply airing frustrations and talking about someone/something else illegal?

I think people were looking for him to communicate the progress he has made (that a few have hinted that they've seen with their own eyes) and an updated project timeline that was realistic to have games built and shipped.

What they weren't expecting him to communicate was that he is basically broke, he has no plan, and he has hired a lawyer. Oh, and Pinside apparently shoulders the blame?

I do not think it would be wise for any pre-order person to sit idly by and simply cross their fingers that this works out. If John is not willing to "open up his books" to you so you know exactly how much money is left I would highly recommend doing what the Skit-B folks did. Contact John's local police department and open a complaint. Allow them to conduct an investigation and determine where the money went, what is left, and if there was any criminal activity involved (either intentional or unintentional).

If John does not have enough money to refund those that had asked then he certainly must not have the money to build X number of games. It does not matter at all how complete any game's design is. Not even if it was 100%. The problem is (apparently) that there is no money to build the games, period. No other manufacturer will touch this with a 10 foot pole.

I love his art but I'm not sure I would buy a pin on that alone. Additionally, I do think JPop has some talent of his own as an art director so some credit due there. But lastly, Zombie Yeti's skills would probably best shine on an unthemed pin (since studios are so picky about their IP) and this would really test what the market is for unthemed pins.

It depends what you bring to the table I think. I look at Gerry and his company Multimorphic. They do not have 3 million dollars invested to date. They do not have a dime of pre-order money right now. They've developed something incredible, new, and unique (whether you're a fan of P3 or not) and they've done it all on their own dime. It is possible. Those taking millions of dollars and "failing" are not excused.

I hear ya, but JPop somehow managed to blow through upwards of 1 million dollars without ever even showing a working whitewood! Gerry has shown a fully working (nearly complete?) P3 prototype without taking pre-order money. He also creatively advertised for investors which will easily allow him to build the first several games to be for sale. The point is he has intentionally tried to find a way to create a successful pinball business without risking hundreds of pinhead's money and hurting the hobby. This is beyond admirable IMO. I look at JPop (who I am a fan of) and I'm bothered by his ego being the contributing factor that caused him to fail and (completely opposite of Gerry) doing serious damage to the hobby in the process. Night and day.

Since we're a little off topic at the moment (and discussing Yeti's talent), some of you may know that I've long been a critic of the character sculpts of a particular manufacturer. Take at a look at this Character Artist (specializing in sculpture.) AMAZING. I don't care what material you choose to make the final product, find an artist like this to design the molds. I realize painting/coloring can only be so detailed due to mass production. However, look at this person's resume and skills. Here is a small sculpt he did of an orc (a "daily speed sculpt" exercise" he says.) WOW. Get him hired too Aurich!!

https://tomparkersartdump.wordpress.com/gallery/speed-sculpts/

orc.jpg

No offense, but I seriously wish people would stop using this same straw man argument that is completely false. It's the material you use that is either tolerable to impact or not. You CAN have great detail and have an incredibly durable figure.

I have the Mezco figures for Breaking Bad. They have a fantastic amount of detail. They could withstand a million pinball shots without a chip. They are mass produced. It's not rocket science or impossible (and reminder, we're not even talking about bash toys here). If it really was an issue of not being able to mass produce something at a rate to which you could profit someone would have solved the problem. That's been the story for the past 150 years.

http://kastorskorner.com/wp/2013/02/09/mezco-jump-2013-pre-toy-fair-showcase/

I agree! But Mezco figures cost about $20 each. Again, mass produced and very durable. When toys are typically the central figures in an 8K+ machine, you might want to "splurge" and go for the $20 (or even $50 in smaller quantity?).

I bet I can destroy any existing pinball "toy" (Williams, Stern, JJP, whatever) before you can destroy or even damage one of the Mezco figures. I'm "trying" to destroy one right now for a custom project and it is absolutely remarkable what it can withstand. Point being, the quality of art (the detail) in a figure and its' ability to withstand the impact from a pinball have no relation.

Too soon.

Whether he can prove there is a working game or not, what is the point? He doesn't have the money to manufacture everyone's games, correct? So until he can provide a solution for how he plans to deliver what he promised for the price paid, who cares? He has clearly mismanaged this from the start and anyone getting false hope from this might want to temper their excitement IMO. Albeit I agree it would be nice to at least see video of how Magic Girl came together.

Easy tiger, I didn't mean to insult you. I was only pointing out that John trying to show progress is just more delaying of the inevitable. Folks are no closer to getting their games. He needs a solid plan right now. What he's showing now should have been shown a year ago.

Just curious but where did the code stand? How many modes, etc did you see?

You're dragging me into this again?? It was ONE comment meant more for JPop than yourself (or anyone else) and you want to continue to blow it out of proportion? Get over it.

AND P.S - YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE A PRE-ORDER PERSON TO BE VERY CONCERNED (EVEN UPSET) ABOUT THE NEGATIVE IMPACT FAILING PINBALL START-UPS HAS ON THIS HOBBY.

Ever feel like you've been hit by a bus only to have the bus back up over you and run you over again and again? Fun stuff.

Do you not find it a little ironic that you're lambasting me for pointing out Concrete's "update" (where is that video again?) changes nothing with the current situation while you are simultaneously asking for clarification on what the update (game differences) actually were?

4) Don't have the resources to build games in this quantity so #Fail

It was just a generalization. I'm confident he meant no offense. I'll admit I was extremely close to pulling the trigger on MG because I really am (was?) a huge JPop fan. Theatre Of Magic was my first love. But I would certainly not consider myself an "elite collector". Just an unwise spender of money.

I get your passion for wanting your game but is it really worth the continued years of frustration at this point? All of the options you've presented so far are seriously flawed. John is not providing accounting information because it's clearly very bad. Have I missed someone actually getting a refund that has been requesting one repeatedly? Major red flag. I think pre-order folks are wasting their own time (and sanity) at this point if they're not pursuing legal avenues for recovering their money. Plain and simple. Otherwise, you'll still be having this exact same conversation a year from now.

I find it curious that your first post about possibly visiting John was flagged by the mods with "Pinside does not condone ever going to someone in person for any reason uninvited". I agree that showing up at another Pinsider's home uninvited is a bad idea but in this case, showing up at a place of business to ask "what the hell is going on?" seems reasonable. Invite or not.

For the majority of a pinball layout I can understand this. However, aren't we talking about a return lane plastic trough here? Where would the ball get hung up? What has to be so right? The ball comes into the trough and gravity does the rest. I must be missing why these are hard to get right.

Ahh I see, thanks for the clarification Rosh.

Just read about the latest 199 MG's at 16k news and cannot stop laughing. It might as well have first appeared on The Onion. Can you say delusional? Still sorry for the folks who were (are) onboard and can't get out. I certainly wouldn't view this "plan" as any glimmer of hope. The only thing JPop can try and do is find an outside investor to fund his business and complete these games as originally promised. Raising more capital from pinheads already disgusted with him is not happening.

Anyone willing to sign legal forms from John that would essentially remove him from all liability of your money would be absolutely insane.

Where are the Pinside lawyers here? Obviously John did not just GIVE the rights to MG, RAZA, etc. to this unnamed licensee? Obviously if they are licensing these titles John must be receiving money? Should existing customers not immediately file a lawsuit against Zidware? How the hell can he claim "to be clear, no refunds will be given to existing customers as I simply don't have the funds"? That just blows me away he would say that while he clearly still hopes to profit from the license?

Please tell me this person's name is not David Richter (AKA SJ1000 on Pinside?). He has claimed to have millions of dollars and to invest in other Pinball companies including most recently trying to bail out JJP (that is his claim, not mine.) Much talk. Little realistic action.

You're stating you know the investor personally and have not just been told a name? Again, I really hope this person's name is not David Richter because that would really be another good laugh.

It's not that I don't believe you but I am curious of what you know so confidently that makes him so legit? A big name in pinball that everyone knows? A close friend of yours that you have intimate knowledge of his finances and business prowess?

It's simply not true that critics are people who want to see failure. While it's noble of Bill to so graciously want to help, he better be prepared for some scrutiny. Get some thick skin. Because some people may just view this as delaying the inevitable and hurting people's chances of recouping their down payments NOW. There are real questions that can and should be asked IMO such as:
What is Bill's experience in manufacturing anything?
What is Bill's personal skill set when it comes to the different aspects of building a pinball game?
Where did the 16k number come from? (How was that determined to be the magic number?)
Beyond getting a half-baked prototype game to NGC what is the timeline thereafter?
Will you have to wait for X number of orders at 16k before deciding to move forward?
DETAILS DETAILS DETAILS.

Because, as I said, the best chance for people to recoup money invested is to start legal action NOW and the longer they wait the harder it will get. As others have noted, the money shouldn't have just disappeared and I believe there is a real opportunity to recover money from John personally if he just paid himself some ridiculous amount of money.

You mean like Jack? Like Kevin? And like JPop? Down to Earth and willing to talk to anyone with a smile on their face means NOTHING. That is a quality of any good con man. Talking. Pointless.

Put forth a highly detailed plan/timeline and the backup plan when something doesn't go according to schedule. Show me why anyone will pay 16K for this game. Tell me why your personal experience is so well suited to being able to manufacture pinball machines when we've watched so many others fail. Tell me what happens when you find no more than 15-20 people who will pay 16k for this game. Show me how you're going to manufacture 199 machines. Show me how you're going to support this expensive machine after it's built.

If Pintasia is so interested in building pinball machines I do not understand why they would start with this half baked and seriously tainted game. Why not just get with Yeti (the artwork on MG is the biggest real wow factor anyway) and create a new game from scratch that you don't have to charge 16k for?

Anyone who cares about pinball has skin in the game. Too many bad things happening to the hobby lately.

Yes, a "few days" will make a world of difference. I suggest you keep your money invested and if you haven't actually paid in full then please do so now. John could probably use some extra spending cash. You clearly have no need being here as you do not want want to hear about any of the concerns and clearly no answers are coming from Pintasia. So what are you expecting to read here? Hopefully the folks with an IQ above 100 who do have money invested are smart enough to seek legal help now and don't continue to drink the Kool Aid of the next pinball startup who can't answer ANY of the hard questions.

Then you must be one of the few with an IQ below 100 if that's what you got out of it.

Stop your whining and quit complaining about the people pointing out the obvious concerns that should be discussed now. If you don't care, fine, but you don't represent all pre-order folks (nor do I) and since someone else started this discussion I guess there are some that DO care.

It is brave of you to take that leap of faith and I assume you are wealthy enough that if you lost 16k it would not impact your life. That's cool and I'm sure Bill certainly appreciates it.

However, convincing others to take that same leap faith without discussing or acknowledging the serious and very real risks involved (and without knowing their own financial condition) is irresponsible IMO.