When JPop sold some P-ROC and other PDB boards of Gerry's on the other forum, I'm the one who bought them. I can assure you that they work just fine.

What can't be done with the p-roc+PDB boards? We have seen lots of alpha numeric, dmd, and full-color games out there built on the platform. I'd say a pretty good number of games have been made and some (admittedly few) have been sold, but I'd include CCC and BoP2 in the list of titles that prove the P-roc as tried and true.

Since we know there's no technical hardware limitations that really justify not using a p-roc based boardset (and it would be dubious at best for anyone to imply otherwise), the reason not to go with PinballControllers has to be either financial, political, personal, personnel (ie, no one to code in Python (pyprocgame), C++ (libpinproc) or C# (netprocgame)), or some combination of these factors. Since you guys are talking about using MPF, seems a lack of available developers was clearly a factor.

I read Eric's post as: there absolutely is more of a story here, and some of us wish we knew it. You can sure add me to the curious list!

The future is entirely speculation. The past is as close as we can get to something that's "factual" in any given moment.

In truth any of us discussing either the past or the future is probably not terribly productive. That said, I'm pretty sure that's not what the internet is all about

I think it's awesome that everyone is looking out for Brian and Aaron/Fast, but there's a few things worth noting:

1. People do a lot of work for free for the love of the product and the enjoyment of the process. I've been coding Buffy for "free" (payment in parts) and along the way I've coded the HD VGA fork of pyprocgame, the hardware accelerated rewrite of the hd vga framework, the graphical OSC client, Visual Pinball support for pyprocgame, and SkeletonGame. I'm not saying they shouldn't look out for their best interests, but there's a bigger picture here.

2. You can't underestimate the value of not getting paid. Something going wrong? You have the option to walk. It's great.

3. MPF will mature a LOT by partnering with JPop. Whether that partnership or MPF survive that process is anyone's guess, but nothing matures a platform faster than having users with non-standard demands, particularly for a game that's planning to be sold to customers. There's a big difference between a personal project game, a game that we expect others to use/play, those we expect to be on par with a commercial game, and then a crazy ambitious project (like a Jpop title).

Just my 2 cents.

I wish I could thumbs up the moderators

This really isn't required. You can do a lot of software development without the physical machine and then gain access when things are mostly in place (eg, using the keyboard for switch events, or the OSC client, or even visual pinball). The problems here are many, but I think access to the machine is only one piece of the puzzle.

That said, I /think/ I read a quote from Lyman Sheats that was something like "for every playfield there's one great game waiting to be coded, and 500 terrible ones" --giving people a platform to code a game is one thing, and making a fun game with that platform is another. Perhaps the most overlooked benefit of rapid development of the type MPF aims to deliver is that it could make scrapping a crap game and starting over a bit faster

Crazy idea here, BUT...

At this price point he could convert the game to a P3 title. It's $4k on top of the P3 and the majority of the "usual stuff" would be done already. The programming platform is rich and I'd guess that there would possibly be support from miultimorphic just to get a third title on the platform. We've seen plenty of video of traditional style machines running on the platform, but I haven't actually tried to overlay the playfield art on an image of the P3 to see how it fits. I know that, at this point, the P3 isn't available either, but I highly doubt waiting for the release would slow down MG any further.

Then every buyer at $14k would get three titles, LL-GG (a Nordman title), CCR, AND MG (a JPop).

I'd finish his pyprocgame code (for P-ROC) for a free Magic Girl and AIW.

Not even a joke.

I believe he has video assets to show on that screen. From what others are saying I do not think any of that is integrated into any sort of game code at this time.

That is him. I bought his old p-roc and PDBs based on an ad he posted there.

http://www.pinballcontrollers.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=628

My students make about the same at graduation, though the upper end is higher (and should be for the greater Boston area).

There are programmers (and skilled ones at that) who will work in a barter situation, largely for the "fun of it", fwiw. The trouble is that everything coming to light surey taints the idea that it would be as fun as one might hope.

The FAST board is still not for sale yet. MPF is incomplete. What's the rush?

MPF uses pyGame for video. As someone who (co-?)wrote the original HD VGA fork of pyprocgame using Pygame (and recently re-wrote the new hardware accelerated version) allow me to assure you that doing this:

http://pinballinventor.org/games/magicgirl/preview/33/wizardry.html

In Pygame would be rather difficult without some very beefy computer driving the game. There are ways to do FMV in another process (via udp or similar) controlling the graphics and we've seen quite a few variants of this on the pinballcontrollers forums over the years. So, if you want to make good on John's goals for this game, you're not likely to do it easily/soon with fast+MPF.

There's also potentially no need to order new boards if there are enough QPC boards for every machine. Others have stated that the QPC board has been made to run pyprocgame so I assume that means they ported Libpinproc. Since MPF leverages Libpinproc for p-roc support (Brian, do not crucify me for oversimplifying) then the QPC can probably run pyprocgame code OR MPF code.

There's certainly a way to get this done. Flushing what has been done already is almost certainly not the way.

Wait, paying some one to develop one isn't bad if you know that Stern or JJP is going to do the build

Sure. Knowing literally nothing about the contents of the code beyond the fact that it is supposedly far along and written for PyProcgame and needs a separate "graphics engine" (something else to let cool high resolution video/effects happen on the screen). My guess would be either Flash or Unity, since both are mentioned in the job description. Given that the screenshots show mostly 2D graphics and Unity2D is a relatively recent development, my guess is that thing might be Flash, but it could just as easily be a custom OpenGL, SDL, Allegro, whatever graphics engine. I don't think it's PyGame given my experiences with it, but I could be very wrong if the frame rate is low and the updates take place mostly in small regions.

Anyway, you asked for English:

The software can be finished by someone without changing the current hardware (QPC) or the current software platform (PyProcGame). You could probably run some MPF derived game on the QPC hardware if you were so inclined.

As for finishing the game for PyProcGame, I can name about 5+ people who can do it. They all hang out on the pinballcontrollers forum. I'm one of them.

Rob Berry, according to the blog.

https://magicgirldev.wordpress.com/?s=music

I don't want to speak to the specifics of this speculation, and at the risk of delving off-topic, but the reality is that we (the pinball community) lack a real standard pinball development platform and language on which our games are coded. PyProcGame might be as close as we get, as it is the most widely used, but that disregards other established/working low-level approaches like FreeWPC, the Parallax/Heckboard, and probably others.

You and I both know all too well that there's a lack of solutions that enable full motion video of the type that JPop wants to do on this pin (see my prior post linking to areas of the website that show some very pretty HD video content).

Until we, as a pinball programming community, start working together and stop being down on whatever the next/last guy/gal is doing, we're all cursed to be working in little independent little circles and should be resigned to being pretty much being useless as replacements for the next/last guy. Certainly this problem isn't unique to pinball, but we really should all work together and rally around /something/.

Sorry if this sentiment is out of place here.

Sure, and I agree, but if you're letting that be your deciding factor in choosing a language, that's like choosing a sledge hammer over a ball peen because you dislike the color of the handle. Both have their place and their time when appropriate.

There's so much more to Python than the way whitespace is handled. The language includes so much that it should also include an alternate compiler just so people who get hung up on this issue can still get to really appreciate all that the language offers.

It sounds like you're headed into this with your eyes (mostly) open, which is key. Someone I greatly respect once told me, "you're not getting robbed if someone is trying to steal something you're giving away for free." That quote doesn't work perfectly here, but I think the gist applies.

I don't know that letting the pinside masses know about this is necessarily the best idea for any number of reasons (this thread is a pretty volatile place that's rarely supportive), but I wish you the best of luck.

Lockbar receiver may interfere with high/odd placement of the plunger (he holds up the lockdown bar, but there's no receiver).

I also am surprised that he doesn't intend to make a custom piece of lexan to fill the gap between the extended length of the cabinet and where the standard length glass stops. It looks like (but who can tell from these pictures) that you could put I highly ornate (lazer etched, perhaps) piece of plexi that has a glass lip along one edge and put it either at the head or down at the apron and not obscure the view of anything. Then folks could get their standard glass, invisiglass, etc. and it might even look cool..? I can't think how you'd deal with the seam where the glass and lexan meets without it looking visually off though...

I'm sure people will feel the need to respond that there's no machine so it's pointless to be so pragmatic about this. I hear that. fair enough, but at least we have something constructive to discuss for a change.

Just thought it was an interesting topic to discus irrespective of the game ever getting completed. That is, if you had this as a design challenge, what would you do?

But, that's fine. I'm sure there's another meme you can reply to this with

It's not going to be hard to convince these buyers (who have been strung along for four years now), to consider extending for another four years with the promise of not losing their money and getting their games made. Asking new potential buyers who have seen this unravel to sign on will be very tricky. Four years is a long time. It all obviously depends on who the licensee is.

I wonder what this means for the folks who have developed software and hardware components, if the new licensee has their own hardware platforms they are experienced with and probably able to manufacture in bulk for cost savings.

All very interesting.

I hope there's a "the real story of MG" panel at expo this year...

There are a lot of assets that would go for big bucks at auction... That Kiss prototype is probably worth a pretty penny...

Jim is Applejuice. Orange cloud is his company.

What I heard from Jim, as he also posted here, he was doing dev for john for two years, unpaid toward the end and stopped after 3 months of non payment. I really feel for him for needing to remain quiet this long. That NDA sure looks scary.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/jpop-update-thread%e2%80%a6%e2%80%a6%e2%80%a6%e2%80%a6%e2%80%a6mg-raza-and-aiw%e2%80%a6?tu=applejuice

People keep asking "why didn't we see this year's ago?" and seem to be missing the point that it seems not that much has changed over the last six months or so on the development end. Two things:

1. Building a prototype of a game is certainly hard, but ultimately very much an achievable goal. Just walk around the P-ROC area of Expo and you'll see lots of evidence to that fact. What usually stops people is lack of funds, time, or expertise. For the prototype phase John had access to a surplus of each.

2. Manufacturing and ultimately shipping machines in any significant quantity is apparently Very hard, if not borderline impossible. Stern, JJP, Spooky.. If you require flippers I don't know that we can count DayOne . Unless you roll up your sleeves to get it done like Spooky did, or have an amazing relationship with Stern or JJP I don't know how you get it done without being Very creative. That creativity would have to require a lot of funds, flexibility, and strong relationships in the industry. I think by the time it got to this point, these were resources in short supply.

ZY: your work is amazing!

Want to do all the lcd display art for our Buffy the Vampire Slayer pin? At least we're up front about not paying and never shipping a machine to a customer

The display does look too red/purple compared to the source images.

Is that a reflection from colored lamps on the playfield or is that monitor connected via VGA and the cable is loose (or the RGB color balance adjusted)?

I'm as hopeful as the next guy, but "Final production" ? Let's take it one day at a time, shall we?

Seriously, you're responding to Jim/Applejuice: the guy who wrote the code for well over a year (two, I think), has not been payed for the final Three Months of that work, and telling him what's what based on a day or two of effort to assemble the thing? Reign it in there, cowboy

I'll bet that this "updated code" is just an updated yaml to increase the flipper strength... Unless there was a Third developer silo also working on code...

You know what also burns me on this? The unpaid vendors are having their work on display, yet in almost every case the vendors are not being given a fair chance to shine.

- Jim's code has been nerfed with weak flippers and single ball play
- ZombieYeti's gorgeous art is being bombarded with super bright purple and blue LEDs that are distorting how things look (in pictures at least)
- the awesomely bright GLM boards and cointaker LEDs have been set in colors most don't like, and are producing insane glare on the lcd display and the playfield art

Look, it's bad enough these guys didn't get paid in full, but the fact that now, when their work should at least be generating some free publicity, they aren't able to shine as they should? Well, that's a real shame.

Look, I get that you were pressed for time so the switches didn't go in, but the point is that John wasn't pressed for time prior to this. Worse, Jim is owed some 5-figure sum and in this opportunity for him to at least get some possible free press or future business, people see of his code in a situation in which it cannot be it's best.

To Markmon's prior comment about (paraphrasing) "ball search being easy to code" and "magnets being hard to code" --that's totally backwards. Moreover acceleration and hold magnets are literally impossible to code for when many physical switches aren't in place.

I get that you did a lot for the machine to get it to the show, and I don't think there's any sane person who doesn't appreciate that, but you need to stop responding like the machine was built in three days and that there was only three days in which to build it, especially when responding to people who had either worked on it or invested in it literally /years/ ago. OMG, yes, a /million/ times better that the machine made it to the show in any form. Yes, I get that it was incomplete for any number of reasons, but you cannot reasonably expect people to not voice their displeasure at that situation.

If Jim says he had a prototype almost a year ago and asked for those switches to be installed a year ago, what really kept someone over in that palatial zidware facility from making that happen? Perhaps it points to the idea that the end game was a buy out and for someone else to just "finish it up" --not necessarily out of malice or greed-- but whatever the reason, clearly functional details like these weren't a high priority for some reason or another.

This whole situation is sad.

Corrected the post. Entirely my mistake. Sorry!!

I wrote the code for Buffy. I co-wrote the original HD VGA PyProcGame fork, and most recently the SkeletonGame+PyProcGameHD fork. Pinbot 2.0 among other games run on top of my extensions to that framework... I wrote the GUI OSC client for PyProcGame, which a bunch of folks use. I took over maintaining the Visual Pinball-PyProcGame bridge. You can find all of this on GitHub. So... yes? I guess I am.

Have you used the ball search mode? It's far more than a timer, and in all honesty, I recently re-wrote that code in two different ways and I still don't really like either.. I'm going to stick by my statement. Ball search is unpleasant.

Magnets, on the other hand, are very difficult to code. Especially if the magnet is suppose to send the ball somewhere specific. There will be tricky pulse timings and tons of trial and error. In addition, long term holds on magnets will need to be carefuly tuned so that the coil doesn't burn up.

True; there's trial and error in getting the pulse timing right (or pulse/patter for holds or effects), but I rarely think of "guess and check" as "difficult" --just tedious. There's no intellectual challenge in that. I think I got our magnet working in Buffy in about 20 minutes or so, but even still I don't love how it plays, so there's some truth to your sentiment that it needs to be tuned. Oh, and putting a fuse in line will save that coil from burning up

Of course I haven't read through the code so I can't say the state of it. It may be that these features are coded but disabled by flags in the code and lack of switches and magnets.

It wouldn't have to be disabled --without the physical switches present, the events would never fire to trigger said magnets.

As long as they aren't Zizzle mechs...

As vid said, most people /should/ care and what they should want is a standard mech so they know they can easily and inexpensively source rebuild kits.

The playfield owl, on the other hand, seems to not be something people want to be able to source easily and inexpensively.

Send him a PM!

I'd recommend he starts a new thread anyway.

Holy hell. This actually makes some sense. Jim had one, right? But it had no playfield art. No way anyone stripped everything off of it (and I'm sure keeping an original whitewood would have some appeal from a "lookie here" perspective). Perhaps the one everyone saw was actually the whitewood jim had, with art applied via sticker print (hence the ripples) and the other three are still there but far less along?

Hey, how about one of you insiders actually tell us what the deal is so we can stop speculating? I mean, what's the benefit of keeping it a secret anymore? Inquiring minds and what not...

Are you a developer?

I have a bunch of experience getting PyProcGame based games running on Visual Pinball (the updated VPROC bridge here:
https://github.com/mjocean/proc-visual-pinball makes that easier than the original version that Gerry and destruk authored). I've managed to rework VP playfields and get the software running for Buffy, Second Sortie, ES:Aftershock, and several other P-ROC projects that haven't gotten as far yet.

If it's over at Farsight (of the Pinball Arcade), awesome thought, but last I checked their platform doesn't have a mechanism to run pyprocgame based games, let alone the custom display engine or the intermediate communication layer between the pyprocgame based game and said display engine.

If it's with the Fast/MPF guys, I really don't know what to say. I just hope it's not there, for their sake. It's rapidly becoming a cursed object like some kind of monkey idol.

Anyone who has the authority and assets to make this happen who is interested in porting this game to VP should feel free to me PM me when the time comes to get the software working. But, hey, you guys are developers -- I'm sure you've got this all figured out

IANAL, but...

I respectfully disagree.

Okay, team Oregon who secretly has the machine for some vague Visual Pinball plans, let's throw it all on the table. Here's my thinking based on the obfuscated posts thus far:

You plan to make a Visual Pinball recreation of Magic Girl.

To make a VP recreation, you need lots of scans/pictures of the playfields and plastics, right? So right now you're taking the machine apart, taking pictures/scans, to acquire that data. Must be fun...

Maybe you're taking measurements for distances so you can get virtual placement "just right" (let's pretend that you are, because that means you actually think you might recreate this game)?

You're probably also looting the software side for assets...? Game code, animations, audio/sfx..?

No wonder you're doing this in secrecy. If you have John's blessing to do this, that's crazy. If you don't? That's crazy too.

That makes sense. Occam's razor, right?

And yet, that's not at all what they've said. Multiple posts hinting about them trying to make a VP recreation which, as I posted, justifies them in an asset raid for the "greater good" --and by hinting and not making any explicit statements, they aren't admitting that they're doing so and probably trying to shield themselves from an inevitable backlash from others finding out about the asset raid ... not to mention giving some protection when they fail to succeed since porting this game to VP would be fairly hard.

Excellent point.

So if they need the machine for virtualization purposes, I suppose this implies it is being done without his cooperation or knowledge.

Now we finally know who bought the only The Pin ever sold

Back on track.

The purpose of jpop's letters to the mayor are finally known and were clearly fruitful. Trying to address the lack of coders in the area who are able to help him:

http://thehill.com/policy/technology/256385-chicago-mayor-calls-for-national-computer-coding-requirement

So, after a few years this might go into effect, then a few more years for students to graduate..? Ha. Take that haters! No timeline indeed.

That dude already has his own pin. I own one. And while I might be curious to see what jpop brought to a Pennybags Family pin...