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Quoted from Razorbak86:I like Zombie Yeti's art, too, just like a bunch of people here, but that's no reason to insult Aurich.
Sort of my take too...glad Aurich didn't take it as such, but comment seemed a bit aggressive..... AURICH WILL ROCK ALIEN....PERIOD!!!!....mark
Quoted from rommy:Should we change the thread title now to all about aurich art ? Seems off to be seeing this here. I can't get a refund. No way am I trying some other boutique no matter who does the art.
Sorry if I contributed to the off topic a bit....really can't fathom the disappointment you feel ....it's truly unbelievable that this can actually happen...especially given the time.....I hope there is something good that can be pulled from the embers....mark
I've owned operated a multimedia company for about 18 years....many, many of my Clients provide deposits on approved projects, as I can't afford to play bank on the big ones. Both parties at risk...there has to be an established business ethics approach ( with a legally binding contract) or nothing gets done .
Pay me to pay attention to your project and do my job...it's how I feed my ( and my employees) families. We agree on the terms, and the project is done....some complete before schedule, some on schedule, and some behind...
But never, ever, have I seen a scenario play out like this one without serious consequences. If I ever got substantial ( or full payment) for a job I agreed to, and no real progress in 3 years??? Can't even comprehend that.....30 days behind and Im under the bus. 6 months ( a couple of times w legitimate reasons) Customer at my door. Can't count on one hand Clients that I had to fire.
Enough is enough....end this for the sake of people who were obviously unwilling partners in this fiasco. Just not right....why not make Monday a " come clean" day, and deal with the reality...everyday wasted makes things that much worse....believe that!!!.....
BTW...I never, never, never have been paid in full for a project before it was completed....customer always holds minimum of 10-20% until I'm done! and customer happy....just how normal bus works...
That's why alien was a reasonable approach for me. Minimal deposit, not a penny more until my machine is being built ( per Andrews terms)....seems reasonable to show commitment to a machine I want....my deposit certainly didn't buy his C&C machine, factory, Staff, materials, engineering, art, etc.
Just my way to show my seriousness/ commitment, and he can gauge production on #s as such...a 180 from what has been displayed in "Boutique" land ( starting to hate that term)....mark
Quoted from Roostking:According to some people here, going to Johns door is akin to wanting to kill him or something.
Not implying that in anyway...just similar to anyone going to a place of business to inquire the status of the order, or request a refund....I did it at Home Depot last week....0 confrontation, just part of doing business...
Quoted from jonnyo:Skit-B claimed to do the same, which was the only reason I jumped on-board. It was 250 to reserve a spot, then when your game was on the floor being built, about half, then the rest when it was ready to ship.
About 18 months later, he asked for the half, but there was no evidence he had the means to build machines, nor that mine was being built. That's when I dropped out and got a refund, because I realized if I stayed in at that point it was a pure gamble with several thousand dollars. Nope, too rich for my blood.
Not suggesting this will happend with Andrew but just saying that line has been played before.
I was never in on Predator ( though title was very appealing), and have never preordered a Pin before Alien. I did do some homework on Heighway before committing, and this is very much an oranges and apples scenario. Want an LE bad ( at least believe I do) and simply secured my spot with a reasonable, refundable deposit, showing my interest ( my take). I've never viewed this position as one to "help" Heighway fund the project......certainly seems he's building these regardless if I'm in or out....I just want one...plain and simple.
Quoted from frolic:That ain't gonna happen, unfortunately.
I know....at the end of the day, the only person I have any reasonable control of is myself.....he is the only one who can control his end of the situation...each individual can then control how they deal with it themselves.
A very painful reality.....but to try and make sense of it or justify any reason to continue letting time slip away will only make it worse...I'm truly sorry for all those involved in this.....mark
Quoted from frolic:Being self (or privately) financed always gave me confidence in Heighway. Meant there was a business plan somewhere that made sense to people.
Exactly....I am not a naive business man....look at their business model from day one......they never implied ONCE that they needed our money to build these games, just gauging our commitment level before HE (Andrew) decided how many widgets to buy.
Same way I run my Company.....I'm not buying anything custom ordered until I have a feel of consumer commitment. This approach is very valid and is done all the time.
The preorder model got screwed when " businessmen " ( use that term very loosely) lied, AND pretty much told everyone they needed the " investor" money to build the games....polar opposite of what Andrew is doing....
Quoted from jlm33:Any way, the fact that Heighway pinball will host the next UK pinball party at their place next August is a smart move and very strong positive signal - everyone visiting will be able to check the reality of their factory.
Suspect that's a plane trip I'm going to have to make....
I've read the last several pages when it appeared the game would show up at this event. Did I miss the part as to why it was rushed to this point, last minute, and brought there?
Is there an active marketing push, or just a one- off " look at me" machine?
None of this makes sense...preorder, loyal customers / vendors have lost at least 6 figures, over a period of several years, but the machine can be brought to an event for what purpose? Certainly not to be resold as a proto to new buyers ( that would be major fraud).
What am I missing here? If I preordered and paid in full, that "proto" would be coming home with me, as is. At least some recoup of investment....
Sorry for everyone involved....don't give a shit what the machine looks or plays like, something not right here....mark
I'm curious, alright...Curious why someone that has paid for either of these machines hasn't brought a receipt and law enforcement to claim them. I have nothing financial involved, but view it as a blatant insult to fellow Pinsiders to have paid for a game and have a version " rubbed in their face" at a trade show .
Admit, it is really infuriating to read, as a lot of people invested hard earned money in good faith, and something like this happens.....and it is getting praise? Wtf.....
Quoted from jonnyo:Outside of the art, it hasn't gotten much praise. In fact, it's been a pretty disappointing reveal.
What's more disappointing to me is this was done at all.....tank the " company" ( loosely used in this instance) , liquefy assets ( personal and business...John has to be seen as a personal guarantor , regardless of corp.), move on.
I think it would hurt me more to see ( I'd never touch or play) a machine I believed in and paid for, but couldn't be had for reasons beyond my control. To even have it there further tarnishes the finish on a hobby that had been re surging .
Will drop out for now, as my anger is rising, and that fixes nothing. Just know there are fellow Pinsiders out there that have no " skin" in this game and are hurting for those that do....wrong man, just wrong....peace...mark
Quoted from someoneelse:Because law enforcement would remind you that you would be stealing from all the other prepayers etc. that have money in this. You could force them to sell the proto and evenly divide the proceedings between everyone having money in this....your share will be very small.
How is this kind of thinking - "I want this machine as indemnification for myself" - and not caring the least bit about the others invested in this better than what JPop did?
You really need to open your eyes to business reality. Companies go bankrupt all the time, people lose most of their investments, the IP is bought out and someone else finishes and goes live with the product - in some cases even making a fortune on it.
A big part of the problem is mentioned by yourself: "...invested hard earned money in good faith...". Tell any investor, businessman or non-pinball friends that you invested hard earned money in "good faith" (and not much more than good faith) and be surprised by what they will answer.
You bet on the wrong horse, you invested in the wrong company, you believed in the wrong person. All natural concerns and clear thinking was thrown overboard in the light of a shiny & rare new toy. A lot of this disaster originates in the wrong and somewhat naive belief that an artist and pinball designer must be competent to run an economical challenging business. I think it's safe to say that artists are among the ones to been known to typically have less connection to "hard facts business" than most other professions.
Now it seems that someone with the necessary financial potential and business competence has stepped in and is trying to evaluate if the IP is worth going for, if there is still enough interest in the machine, if it is feasible and what it would take to produce the machine. Thus the presentation & the "offer" to the original prepayers.
And don't be fooled by the emotionally loaded comments about no one wanting this machine due to it's history. If it is released it will be one of the most collectable pins ever made and the value, depending on numbers produced, will probably go through the roof. Not despite but because of it's history. I'm not saying it's a good move, but if a pinhead friend called me saying he just got a MG I'd jump in the car immediately and be there lightning fast.
Whatever, I still feel deeply sorry for anyone invested in this. There really is no "right" solution to this situation, either way it will cost you a lot of money which makes me very sad.
Maybe the single positive effect of this will be that future projects in pinball will have to be approached in a far more professional and thoughtful way leading to more healthy and realistic endeavors. After the pitchforks have been tucked away again, that is.
If a paid in full preorder individual went in with even basic law enforcement, and claimed ( with a receipt) these were the machines they had paid for, there would at least be a question, machines confiscated, and everyone would know where they were ( from my reading, many people doubted they even existed).
Addressing " personal indemnification for myself"....negative. At least one person who paid for the machines would have ownership...goal is to not let these " assets" vanish again.
" opening my eyes to business reality", " investing hard earned money in good faith", and " betting on the wrong horse" explanations would only enrage me more, if I were vested.
My eyes are wide open to business reality, I live it everyday. Didn't see business "ethics" tied into your response in anyway, guess I'm not that intelligent.
And now the " good faith/ betting on the wrong horse" people were idiots for doing so? No way. They bought ( and were sold through good faith tactics, btw.) a bill of goods, that is sitting in their face at the moment. They were grossly misled, lied to, and now "force fed " into whatever this was suppose to accomplish.
I would suspect that there will be a fair amount of people that look in from the outside ( of this hobby)in disbelief.
Slept on this last night, so I would be calmer in my posting/ reading today. I'm just tremendously sorry and feel for the people that have to endure this ( and the other fiasco). I enjoy pinball as a release from my business world, and suspect others do too. Suffice to say just reading this is not a release that would be best for pinball.
If a paid in full owner does not have these at least confiscated until details are crystal clear for all of the current owners, I hope justice is swift.......mark
Quoted from gambit3113:Walking in with a receipt for a paid preorder from a failed business would not entitle you to ownership of the prototype. Stop with the bad advice and hyperbole.
Seems there has been a lot of entitlement and hyperbole already associated with all of this.....thank you for your advice( taken), and keep any of my thoughts that may perpetuate to myself.
Ok.....storms here tonight so pins unplugged...I'll bite.....whatever happened to the machine that was shown at NW awhile back? Wasn't that going back to him?....worth anything?
Quoted from Fulltilt:here it is.jpg
Is that really it?....Or humor ( I can't really see it)?
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