Were there ever white woods of this game? I don't think so...so these are working protos without code??? Hmm? My guess is that these are going to be orders 1-3 at some point.

Did he offer you 10% of the company?

Guys, I think he NEEDS the Wired article because it will bring in more preorders which, in turn, will bring in more money - from people who have no idea about Pinside. This could be because he wants to make the games OR it could be just to continue his income stream (so he can continue to invent).

He needs to go on Shark Tank.

If I was in on Magic Girl, I would drive over to Zidware with my wife's minivan and take delivery of one of these. You paid for one, you own one. I would ask for all of the parts he has related to the game, and off I would drive, never to allow JPop into my life again. I would figure it out from there. If 5 or 10 partial games are in his shop, that group of owners can figure out where to go next. Maybe for another $3K each, you can get some of the rarest completed games in history. Again, this is what I would do. If he did not cooperate, I would call the police while I was there and show my receipt (It worked with my ex-wife).

386835-i.jpg

Translation:

I am still fiddling around. Pinside has foiled my master plan. I am really broke. I have an attorney. No, I am not kidding; I really need some money. If you know someone with money, bring them to me. Yes, I am serious, I have an attorney. Thanks for the money so far. Let me keep fiddling.

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

Why is it that, in a VERY small way, I feel sorry for this guy?

popadiuk1.jpg

It sounds like he is truly ready for the expensive part...producing them. Getting manufacturers to make all of the toys, gadgets, mechanisms, ramps, playfields, etc...is the most expensive part. Then, he just has to get some kind of assembly line going to put it all together. I'd say he can probably get the next 100 games done for about $400-500K if he doesn't have to hire anyone (just get a bunch of people to do it for the love of pinball). I have my reading glasses on and I still can't see pink. Maybe I am color-blind.

Right, just to make game #1 in any batch for art, engineering, design, whitewoods, etc... before he orders any parts.

It is a wide open field right now. I know that Dirty Donny has been very successful in the last 2 years focusing on the pinball community. He obviously had the inside advantage with Metallica, but the residual effect has been huge. He has sold out his non-pinball art at every single pinball show. He can't create stuff fast enough. If you want to talk to him, send me a PM and I will give you his contact info.

(sorry, I meant to quote the Mondo Posters guy)

It is not that hard to get a license if you are a well-established company with money, AN ATTORNEY and a track record. Those Mondo posters are typically $300+ each and they typically have runs of about 325. I've rarely seen them get re-run. That tells me that they gross about $100K per poster and usually the license will run about $50K. They can net about $50K per poster. Pretty good deal for posters. I hope that helps.

I am talking about the original 325 they print on premium licenses, not reprints or B and C licenses. Check eBay, they regularly sell for $2,000-$10,000 in the resale market.

Sorry, this thread can get back on track AFTER I plug my favorite Mondo Movie Poster Art:JurassicPark-10_1024x1024.jpg
(It's the part where the attorney gets eaten;It always makes me cheer. No offense StevenP)

I think John has already been paid his profit in this endeavor. I think he is the only one who has profited. Just my opinion.

That picture explains a lot as to why the shooter was too high above the playfield. The top ramp will not fit under the glass. Everything about this game is custom.

The center circular ramp sat at least 10" above the play field which explains why the play field has to sit so deep in the back of the cabinet. It really blocked your view of the entire top of the play field. I think the shooter rod will have to sit much lower than on a standard game and that is why it doesn't line up on the video on his website/blog.

PS - ChrisVW; Why can't it be posted again?

It's starting to remind me of another game that had a custom sized play field, custom cabinet and custom glass. Had to put the DMD in a custom location so people could see it.

Pinball Circus.jpg

Too funny. Plus, it did have a clown with a wheel on the backglass:

backglass_sm.jpg

The spikes are the leg bolts. They put a hole in your leg when you nudge (to remind you of all the pain in this project).

Edit- Found a pic (imagine accidentally bumping those suckers):

405701.jpg

"...provided that each customer reaffirm his or her interest in obtaining the ordered

products or converting to other products and providing any outstanding payment upon

finalization of pricing, together with his or her commitment to standstill from bringing any action

related to outstanding orders. The Licensee will be hiring Zidware’s founder as a consultant (in

such capacity, “Consultant”) to assist Licensee in the completion of the design of the games,

and a standstill agreement is important to ensure that Consultant is not needlessly distracted by

demands or litigation during this critical time."

I think it's "all or nothing." If anyone does not sign the Agreement, the new company will not do the deal with John.

Plus, providing a "balance upon finalization of pricing" is absolutely ridiculous. They really expect everyone to send them more money in the next few weeks PLUS "waive their rights" for 4 years.

I'll take over Zidware on that deal.

Recap:

1) Everyone sign the Agreement.
2) Everyone send more money.
3) Everyone waive their rights for 4 years.

And, still NO GUARANTEE you will ever get a game.

UGH!!!

I am curious if you would be willing to share how much you were paid by John over the last 4 years and how much you are still owed at this time. Also, what have you been promised by the new investor? I think that would help everyone here gain a better perspective as to how they "weigh" your opinions on this matter.

Because the new owner needs Raza money to build Magic Girl. See a pattern?

Blue Horseshoe loves Anacott Steel.

That's what this is. Please stop using the word "INVESTOR" here. An investor would come in with a million bucks, build games and sell them. That's what I would do as an investor. They are not, though; They are asking for MORE money. This is a shill to get everyone to release JPOP AND the new owner from any personal liability here. Please do not fall for it.

CLASSIC...PONZI...SCHEME!

FACT: Most ponzi schemes start with good intentions for the first group that invests. When the first plan doesn't work out for the schemer, he/she is convinced that their plan is still good and goes after a second group of investors (usually because they are embarrassed to tell the first group they lost their money). When the second "plan" doesn't work, they go after a third group, etc...

All the while they pay themselves and feel justified in doing so for all the hard work they put in.

When the music (money) finally stops, they always UPGRADE you one last time and blame you if you don't do it.

Does this sound familiar? The letter is win-win for JPOP. You sign his terms and release him of responsibility for "hope" of a return on your investment or, you you don't sign it and it's your fault you lost all the money.

There is one way he can lose. Contact an attorney and go after him civilly. Contact the local police and the Attorney General's office in the state of Illinois.

http://www.illinoisattorneygeneral.gov/consumers/filecomplaint.html

Remember, he does have assets, and, he paid himself for the last 3 years. I am sure geniuses- creating patents and important trademarks like a picture of Zeus holding a pinball- feel they are worth a lot of money and pay themselves very well.

Take a look:

https://tsdrapi.uspto.gov/ts/cd/casedocs/bundle.pdf?sn=85761478&type=FTK&fromdate=2012-10-23&todate=2012-10-23

If the investor is putting in a million bucks and doing it for the love of pinball, he doesn't need signed letters from buyers or money for that matter. He needs to take over for John and start building games. The million bucks should do that with no problem. After they start hitting the streets, he can sell hundreds more and start making a profit.

If the letter today was an announcement that $1 MILLION was being invested in JPOP and games will be built, there would be no onslaught of litigation. There would be hope and a whole new level of patience. Plus, there would probably be a line of people wanting to buy these games, ONCE THEY ARE PRODUCED.

It's the whole "hocus-pocus" of sign this, commit to that, hurry up, or lose it all, that leaves a pit in my stomach.

The other option is not to "just walk away." It is to choose not to sign it and see if games are made.

You are still owed a game or a refund even if you don't check a box on this document. By signing this document, you are waiving your rights and acknowledging that you may get nothing in the future.

As a matter of fact, I feel that checking the box to wait for RAZA/AIW pretty much seals your fate that you will never get anything in the future. No game, no refund, no justice. You signed that you are OK with that.

I am begging all of you to please be careful here. Make you own choices, but consult an attorney and do some research.

Maybe Kaneda became VP after doing such a great job with PR?

There is only one name that comes up this weekend to save the deal - Gary Stern.

Edit: 2 names - Dave Peterson as well.

I am certain the thread will hit 10K once the name is announced - no matter what name it is.

This is my favorite part - because I have created, purchased, and sold many businesses in the last 25 years. And, yes, I have been burned - particularly to the tune of $3 Million in "shareholder loans."

Let me translate how that works:

1) Invest $3 Million in a business with one owner who controls the cash.

2) Forget to include salary restrictions on that owner when you invest.

3) Owner "pays himself" a huge bonus one week, say $2.5 million.

4) A few days later, the owner deposits $2.4 Million back into the corporate account. This is a shareholder loan to the company.

5) Looking at the monthly numbers (just totals), things look in order. I never notice it.

6) Years go by.

7) You have a buyer for the company at $4.5 Million.

You are notified that there are $2.4 Million in outstanding shareholder loans that get paid before you.

9) You learn an expensive lesson.

John is no dummy. He had no restrictions on the money. He paid it all to himself first, and, out of the goodness of his heart, loaned it back to Zidware. That way, he is first in line as a creditor. That is why he is paying nobody! The language of "shareholder loans" was not included accidentally. By signing it, you are acknowledging that "John has outstanding loans and you were made aware of this."

EDIT: = 8.

Sorry, I duplicated myself instead of editing. Jim

Was adding this line - In other words, he can still make claims for any new money deposited towards loans he is owed.

A note to Mr. Brandes:

Bill,

Please take these 30 days to consider distancing yourself from JPOP. I know you are a huge fan and you have heavily invested in theses games. My take is that you became very concerned and finally visited him in the last 30 days. Everybody leaves the Mad Scientist's laboratory feeling like there is a genius at work. I am certain this happened to you as well. The part you forgot is that he pumps ether into that place (it's an expression). It takes at least 60 days to come out of the ether. How many posts have we seen filled with hopes and dreams in the last 3 or 4 years after people have left the laboratory? They always get burned by John in the end.

Many of them actually get the idea to "rescue him from himself."

You are not the first one with this idea. You are just the first one that was willing to do it under "John's terms."

That is my point to you. He is setting you up to burn you as well. I know you are in the ether because no competent businessman puts together a contract that says "Do not sue the genius at work or he will not be able to focus." Every contract you get will protect him just a little bit more. Every contract buys another two years for John to burn you and come up with another plan for himself. He will actually be able to blame you if the games don't get built.

I understand the reasons you have kept him involved. He owns everything and Has control of everything. You will not have access to any of it without him. I am here to tell you that this is a bad thing. 199 games cannot possibly be shipped in the next two years if he is involved. I personally don't think 199 can be delivered if he is not involved. JJP did not make two years, Heighway will not get 200 off in less than two years (it's been 22 months), TBL, MMR, etc...

I am saying this because I like you, but more importantly, I love this hobby. I love your spirit and I would love to see the games get made but nobody else should be burned along the way. I know John and I am certain he let you believe all the ideas in this License deal were yours. I assure you that they were not. Nobody has been able to look at his finances. How will you feel if you help protect him and you later find out that he squirreled away $400k? He is not providing financial transparency here for a very good reason.

Please reconsider your position here. Maybe you can force John's hand a little more and make this deal a little better for yourself and everyone involved. Please don't hesitate to send me a PM if you would like to hear more. I have plenty to share on what I have recently seen.

Kindest regards,

Jim Tracy
[email protected]

A quick Google images search for Sabrina Wei gets some great results. I would post them, but I do not want to turn this into a "boobs" thread.

Crucify you? They should crown you! Great work. It's awesome to see what motivated people can accomplish. I have to applaud Bill here as well.

I think the "license" probably could have been acquired by any person here. I think John would have given it under two conditions:

1) Don't sue me.

2) Make games for people and give them some type of credit so they don't come after me.

Many songs are "licensed" over and over again by TV shows, movies and commercials. I really think any person here could go get a license from John under those conditions.

Here is the thing. Bill acquired the license. That's it, a license to try to make the games. I really don't think he is the bad guy here. Bill IS spending his own money to try to complete the first game. It was the furthest along so it makes sense. My guess is that he is investing about $100K to try to get that done. He is working with about 25 vendors to put a game together for the Northwest show. That's more than John could, or would even think about doing. It makes no sense for Bill to talk about RAZA and AIW yet. Let him try to get game 1 working.

Finally, Bill has to have some contact with John. He can't just cut John off. John has EVERYTHING on his computer, in his shop, and in his head. He needs that stuff to make ANY of the games. We all know John is a little "flaky." Anything could happen.

The following is my opinion - Bill is hoping he can get everything soon even with the risk that "John might go crazy and destroy everything" when all the lawsuits and attorney general letters start to hit. Then, John is bankrupt, and there is no chance that any of these games ever see the light of day. That is why Bill is asking for some kind of "stay of execution" on John. He is hoping to slow the tide over the next month to get everything he can from John. This is to protect all of the buyers. Somebody else will have everything.

Finally, this is a no-win situation for Bill. He did not buy the company. He does not owe anybody anything as such. What if he can make these games and sell them for $10K each? Then, he sends them to the first 15-20 buyers for free. They will still be asking him for $6K refunds from him even though he gave them exactly what they paid for (other than exclusivity). He didn't owe them the games or the $6K each; John is the one who might owe them something. If Bill sells 100 or 150 of them at $10K, the exclusivity is gone, but that is the price to be paid to attempt to move on to games 2 and 3. That will upset even more people.

So, my advice for now, take a deep breath and let Bill do his thing. Leave Bill alone and offer support to him. That's what I am doing. If he asks, I will go to John's shop with six of my guys TODAY and help to put a game together.

On John, I have no advice. Let your conscience, heart and brain guide you towards making the best decision for you.

It's really worth thinking about.

Yes, I will. Name the day & time, and I will be there with a couple of helpers. I am more than happy to do that. I know how much getting this first (prototype) game out means to you. It's everything. PM sent.

I am curious to know what everyone thinks Zidware is worth today?

I know the number is ZERO if you include outstanding debts. What if it went through bankruptcy and the whole thing is up for auction today? The protos, cabinets, toys, art, patents, IP and trademarks.

What do you think it's worth?

Wow! That's a lot of games. How did deepgroot arrive at those numbers? I am sure it was an exhaustive study. Did I miss the Pinside poll?

My guess is that it is still the property of Zidware. It's my speculative belief that Bill acquired only the license to build the games. He did not buy the assets. He mentioned earlier that the game is owned by the 150 owners in the group.

Thanks Bill! That should end that discussion.

I know everyone wants to know what you paid for the license. This is my guess. No money exchanged hands, but you promised to deliver the 15+ Magic Girl's once you can go into production. That would be about 15 games X $15K = $225K

I wonder if anyone else in the world would pay that for the license.

The other option would be to wait for the bankruptcy and buy the IP at auction. I don't think anyone in their right mind would pay more than maybe $25K....pushing it might be $50K, but I don't think so.

If someone did buy the IP at auction for $50K, that would get each owner about $300 back. For $300, I'd rather take a short "wait and see" approach. I am not talking about legal action against John. I am talking about giving you a break, Bill. At least you are protecting the biggest asset that John had.

Plus, you are putting about $100K into this one big asset which I think will benefit everybody by seeing if this game is even worth making.

Why would anybody buy out John's liabilities? They are about $1.3 MILLION. Everything he has is not worth $100K. That's everything.

I don't think he "snaked it out," I think he "saved it" from what John is currently doing...see website...see blog...see walls missing art from a recent visit...

One item is saved and Bill repeatedly states "It belongs to all of the owners."

Sorry, duplicate. Ugh!

I think a set of ramps is at least $3K.

This is a great article in this week's Crain's Chicago Business. It is very relevant to this discussion.

It's called: "Kickstarter's Darker Side."

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20150523/ISSUE01/305239994/when-kickstarter-projects-have-trouble-getting-started

I think he was paid for a while. Then the payments stopped. I believe the same for Zombie Yeti and others.

...or, he was auditioning for a role with a bigger pinball company that would actually get that license.

Yes, he actually mentioned it on the phone with me last year. He was hoping JJP OR Stern would buy him out.

Good thing he did not bring this to shows. He would have collected even more deposits and might have announced another game by now. This show may have gone on another two years before the music finally stopped.

It looks to me like Sabrina might have the money and contacts to get this done.

JPOP looks like Weird Al to me.

weird-al-yankovic-c4535fb7f213b73e.jpg

Blue Horseshoe loves Anacott Steel.

It's worth saying again.

He made the center one as well.

408601-i.jpg

If there was a fire, would the insurance company believe the contents of the shop were worth $1MILLION? Pretty good question.

He'll be waking up pretty soon.

One of the guys at my office just read the thread and swore that ICE's account is operated by two people.

The bottom line is that John NEVER intended to create a pinball manufacturing company. He NEVER thought of the money as money being paid for an actual pinball machine.

John felt he was building a pinball design company. That's why he was so delusional. That's why he felt everything was fine. That's why everything was about the "love of pinball." He felt everyone "got it" that they were giving him money to further develop pinball. Getting a game was not a responsibility, it would be a bonus.

He truly believed that somebody would buy his business or build the games for people as part of a licensing deal. That's what he thinks is happening right now. Bill has licensed the games so Bill should build them. John feels he has done his part. He is shocked that people would actually sue him.

In the meanwhile, John will go back to tinkering in the laboratory "for the love of pinball." He will continue to defend his actions and will blame the community for how they have hurt him. It's really a sad situation.

Same here. My wife had me doing chores.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread. Dirty Donny has been killing it with the pinball community for the last two years. We love to put this stuff in our game rooms. Hopefully, I'll be around next time.

Bill taking on the project is a distraction of the real problem-JPOP. He should have waited for the BK AND PURCHASED THE LICENSE LATER. He then could have offered some credits to all purchasers and would look like a hero.

Agreed, but I really don't think the MG license has a value of more than $25K. I don't think any of the bigger manufacturers would have touched it. I am guessing Bill has spent much more than that already. Just a guess.

Don't forget these valuable trademarks...

ImageAgentProxy.jpg

Titanium_Plate.png

When I started my business 23 years ago, my partner and I used our savings accounts to get started.

We did not take a salary.

A year later, that money ran out so we both took line's of credit on our homes to the tune of $250K.

We did not take a salary.

Another year went by and we were out of money again, but the business showed real promise so we borrowed another $500K.

We did not take a salary.

The fourth year we started making a profit and began to pay the bank back.

We still did not take a salary.

In year 6, we finished paying the bank the $750K plus interest and made a small profit.

Only then did we take a small salary.

How did I live for almost six years without income? I ate Ramen noodles and mac and cheese. We did not go on a single vacation. We lived on the money my wife earned as a dental assistant. We were poor, but I was motivated.

What happened? We were motivated because we put our entire life on the line. We HAD TO MAKE IT WORK. We had no choice. We really did work 7 days a week. I risked my home, my kids college savings, my retirement, etc... I went ALL IN. I still arrive at the office every single morning by 7AM and often work till 9PM (14 hour days sound familiar?).

The problem is that John never had to go ALL IN. He didn't even put the tip in. If he did, his sole focus would have been on the BOM, making games, and getting them out the door SO HE COULD EVENTUALLY MAKE A PROFIT and get paid. If he had taken a $250K line of credit on his home, risked his kid's college fund, and been eating Ramen Noodles instead of Starbucks, we would all have games in our homes. The model certainly could have worked. Look at Ben and Charlie.

I have ZERO respect left for this man. He justified his salary because he was doing the job of 10 men. Listen to his interview again. "It took 3 or 4 guys just to do the cabling." He probably feels that people still owe him all of the remaining money on these games, not for the actual games, but for all of his dedication and hard work. Nobody ever owed me anything in my life. I EARNED every penny by generating a profit.

HERE IS MY OFFER TO ONE PINSIDER:

If you were burned by John, and you cannot afford to hire Zane Smith because the conditions in your life have changed, please send me an email with your purchase contract and proof of payments attached, and I will send $500 to Zane Smith on your behalf. You will be part of the lawsuit and will maximize your position to try to get something back.

If times have really gotten tough (because life happens and much can change in 4 years) and you don't want to go through Zane, send me all of your info, contracts, payments, etc... and I will send the $500 to you personally instead. It is your choice, but again, I can only do this for one person at this time.

Whoever I help, I will keep your information private. I will not share your information on this forum or anywhere else in my life. You have my word.

My contact info:

Jim Tracy
[email protected]

If he was worth more, somebody would have offered him more.

I live in Chicago and my wife and I got by on less than $60K a year. We rented a room in a house when we first got married. I have 50 employees today, and 70% of them make less than $50K right now. Somehow, they get by.

I guess I am insulting all of them.

I am just guessing that some lives have changed in the last 4 years. Divorce, death, loss of job, bad investments, etc... Maybe there is somebody no longer collecting...maybe there is somebody that does not even post on these forums, but reads them. Maybe there is someone who needs a break in their favor right now.

Maybe, just one good deed is what this community needs to turn the tide in a positive direction. Pay it forward, right?

Yep, it's much easier to fail with OPM (Opium) which is OTHER...PEOPLE'S...MONEY.

When you choose a position where there are only 3 dozen positions available in the world, yes, you have to take what you can get because the odds of another one becoming available can be quite low. Or, you may have to take an entry level position doing something else where you will be paid even less.

Last I checked, $60K is better than unemployment. If you have a family and no job, you take what you can get and work your ass off until somebody pays you more.

If that's your only offer, I guess you are better off stealing it from the community that supported you? Is that what you're saying? What does Larry DeMar working for my company have to do with anything?

1) Yep, you busted me.

2) No, I don't build coin op games for a global market. But, when I interview a person for a job, I pay them based on their skill level and market value for the position they are interviewing for. I can't pay somebody based on what they used to make "back in the good old days - the roaring 90's!" I do, however, interview plenty of them that made $150K in their past, but bring $40K of experience in my industry. Some earn their way back to $100K+, some do not. $100K+ talent always rises to the top.

Agreed. It was semantics. I meant qualified people to do the job vs. positions available. If there are 36 total jobs in the world designing games and 35 are filled, and you get offered the only one available, you just might have to take it for whatever they offer. Or, you might have to change careers.

I am tired of arguing with you Flynn. You win the best Pinside fighter of the day. I can't break down the semantics and double entendres of every word the way you can. I have to go back to work here. Peace!

What does Larry DeMar have to do with JPOP? Talk about tea in China? They are 2 totally different human beings. Larry DeMar went to MIT for goodness sake! He was the head of Engineering at Williams for 19 years.

If JPOP was worth $100K+ because he was another Larry DeMar, someone would have scooped him up when he was looking. Please Flynn, you have insulted me, but please don't insult Larry DeMar by comparing his value to JPOP's.

Thank you. Going back to work.

I hate to quote myself, but it was the best way to provide this update:

I am proud to say that 2 people have provided proof of their purchase from Zidware and I have decided to help both of them. I will not say who they are, what they wanted, how they wanted it or even if they participate on Pinside. If they ever want to share any of that information, that will be up to them.

$1000 is honestly a small price to pay for the great things that pinball has brought me. Heck, $1000 is only 1/3rd of the profit I made when I sold my Tron LE. I have lost $1000 in a day at a casino. It will not change the quality of my retirement. I am really happy to have been able give back.

I was told that it was $0. It was an Agreement to include credits to previous buyers and expand availability.

Really? He has suffered enough? I am curious how he has suffered. He got a million bucks and played tinker toys for 4 years. I wish I could suffer that way.