Those currently not in on a JPop game and do not have their money on the line right now:

Please do not fan the flames, take a victory lap for getting out previously, or generally troll this thread.

Obviously, there are issues going on with this matter, give it a couple days to see if JPop addresses the obvious criticism he is under from his existing customers. Perhaps he will smooth it out, perhaps he will not - regardless, no reason for those who do not have a vested interest to speculate for the next 48 or so hours.

I'm not saying not to post in this thread or restricting posting to only those with an interest, just post responsibly...

Understood. I'm not trying to protect JPop, just trying to stop people from making a bunch of "I told you so" posts to people when we are not certain exactly what is going on.

I'm just asking people to post respectfully and not flame any flames.

Yea, it is challenging to avoid flame fanning. Everyone wants to comment and provide advice and say what they would do in y'all's situation, which is not really addressing the issue.

Obviously, those suggesting legal recourse of some kind may not have fully evaluated the likelihood that JPop enjoys limited liability through his entity he formed (at least I assume he formed an LLC if he took the time to have NDAs crafted). You guys are in a delicate spot, you want answers and to see progress but your concerned he may walk on the project if pressed on points. I get it and I hope JPop addresses the concerns for everyone and handles the questions in a professional manner.

Insolvency and collectibility. A judgment would only be as strong as the financial feasibility of the company. Not having JPop personally on the line means he could walk away easier.

I'm certainly not saying the above is applicable or giving anyone legal advice, just observing what the concerns of the interested people may be here.

I respectfully disagree. If the LLC has insolvency issues the juice may simply not be worth the squeeze - I guess this depends on whether a potential plaintiff can find someone willing to take the case on a contingent basis which in my view may be unlikely.

How much in salary do you think JPop has taken? Possibly a good amount over the three years (obviously I do not know this but it would lead one to assume that solvency may be an issue if it comes to litigation).

I totally agree. My discussion with Rob above is just theoretical. Thanks.

I agree. We are talking past each other. Also, I again stress this is purely theoretical. That said, i will flesh out my point a bit further as I do not believe either of us disagree with the other's position. I am making assumptions here and have not seen JPop documents regarding the deposit - I am not giving anyone legal advice.

My assumption is Zidware was not capitalized with much, if any, outside capital besides start up costs (incorporation fees, attorneys fees, cpa fees perhaps, a couple other minor matters). My assumption is the deposits were actual capital used in the development of the game (the word deposit can be misleading). My assumption is to the extent there was capital put into the company it was a type of debt that was collateralized with the assets. My assumption is employee fees over the past few years have consumed much of the capital. My assumption is outside fees (possibly attorneys protecting IP and what not) have consumed more capital.

All of the above in mind, I then move to the thought that it is pertinent that JPop is not personally on the hook. If JPop is not on the hook personally he may just walk away and not finish anything if he feels any heat or pressure or is just tired of dealing with things. There may be no meaningful assets to even make it worth obtaining a judgment or collecting a judgment. Also, the person who brings the action ends up carrying the water for others, something that is usually not appealing.

If (and that is a big if, I am expressly not saying there is any problem at all with JPop) there is a problem and deposits are not voluntarily refunded it may not be worth people hiring an attorney (even on a contingent basis, if they could find one willing to take the case) to recover whatever may be around (if anything).

Again, this is purely theoretical. I will bring future discussion on this subject only to PM.

He sent out a payment letter for AIW? I missed that... I thought there would be no payments on that one due till MG actually shipped? I don't remember where I heard that...

I just choked on my diet coke reading that and woke up my fiancé. Funny stuff.

Usually when deals like this with start ups don't pan out there is no money to get back at the end of the line...it has normally all been spent on salaries. Does anyone know what JPop pays himself out of Zidware? After four years that may have added up to a large figure...just in his salary.

All this talk of getting an updated timeline seems misplaced. He can just make up a new timeline, he's learned that missing self imposed deadlines are not that big of a deal...

What you guys really need is a full accounting, inventory and budget (the budget would be tied to some timeline. Here is what I would ask:

1) How much money has he taken in total from customers to date?
2) How much capital did he invest into the company from third parties or himself?
3) What is in the bank account as of today?
4) What is his cash burn rate monthly?
5) How much is his salary (broken down by each year of the project)?
6) What is the outstanding accounts payable not yet paid?
7) How much is left outstanding in pre-order money from people who have signed up (this is his only AR)?
8) Does he intend to contribute capital to the company moving forward and if so how much and when?
9) What are the assets of the company (mostly equipment I would presume)?
10) What is his inventory?
11) How much in parts does he need to build out MG in total? How about Raza?
12) What will the labor costs be?
13) Costs to pursue patents further and other weird intangible costs?

Once all this is answered you guys can decide the next step...and whether JPop is able to build the games even if he is inclined to do so.

Kaneda, stop pm'ing Aurich now please. Only warning. Thanks.

It isn't your business if he can or cannot. Please disengage from Aurich at this time without further comment.

Your self imposed ban from this thread for one week is accepted. Please honor the self imposed ban.

Everyone else, please do not bait kaneda into responding further.

I think the one thing people don't want to see is more art posted. They want a timetable and project budget update for game number one.

I always viewed the NDA as more of a marketing gimmic, maybe not...did it have a forum selection clause in it just out of curiosity?

I'm quoting my own post. It seems like the adobe release calmed the seas for a few days, but an accounting and budget is still needed.

Id be very curious how much money JPop has paid himself in salary from the deposits; surely it is a lot more than was originally budgeted for due to the extra time the project has take.

We all have to make money and live. If his salary is $50,000 per year then after four years he's extracted $200,000...that is a meaningful percentage of the pre-order money.

The fact that nobody knows what his salary is should be a point of discussion give he has gone outside the original time parameters.

I don't think he has anything to update anyone with (good or bad) other than artwork changes. People say he works full time on this...perhaps he does...

It my view it isn't pride but lack of money at this point that is bringing him down. My guess is he paid himself a salary large enough to eat through most of the deposits over the last four years. A demand to see what his money has been spent on to date and what's left is important...

The timeline is totally meaningless. I could make up a timeline of building the next space shuttle. Doesn't mean I have the know how or funding to do it.

I do not believe JPop has the know how or money (left) to build what he has committed to at this time.

I'd be stunned if it meant you are getting a refund. Where would the money come from to refund you?

JPop capitalized his company through the "deposits". The capital from deposits looks to be wearing thin. If he put in any of his own money it likely was negligible. He is not likely going to reach into his personal bank account to refund anyone.

Iceman's approach is the only viable option right now that I see. Waiting for Iceman to do his thing seems to be the best approach.

I think everything that can be said has been said. Doug is on the matter and organizing who he can. Unless JPop does some sort of surprise reveal or opens his books or something else unforeseen I think there will be little say for awhile.

Are you still going to go meet with him Ice?

My guess is he pays himself around 100k-125k per year in his personal salary...that is a half million over 4-5 years in and of itself. Of course, perhaps he is paying himself less...we don't know.

But if less, how much less? He needs to live...he has to be paying himself something and he is in charge of his own salary setting presumably.

No doubt. The underlying issue is no one knows, absent information speculation will continue to run rampant. Ice will solve the information gaps, I am confident.

I don't think it is reasonable for people to expect on the one hand JPop is working 60 hour weeks just on this project for the past 4-5 years but hasn't been taking money out of it to live in. We all have to live...maybe JPop is independently wealthy and doesn't need any money to live on...

I think the artwork looks amazing.

I think it is totally dead. No start up company will ever be able to generate sizable paid up deposits for any title again (at least over the next few years). JJP may be able to mine those individuals who completed two pre orders for WOZ and Hobbit in the past but even that number likely falls with each release and each delay.

Man, that artwork looks awesome! What a cool theme that was.

No one questions the artwork. That is the fun part of all of this and JPop's vision in that department is phenomenal.

That's probably the reason for the narrow color pallet. Good question though.

I think being unlicense is the main thing that held back AMH. I worry about JJP's game from Pat. People say it will sell as an unlicensed theme fine...I just don't think it will but we will find out.

What was the bet?

Ice and StephenP seem to both feel that the money already sent in is not gone and that the remaining payments due will be enough to finish the games. Ice has high levels of financial sophistication and says he will verify this point soon...good enough for me.

I knew there was a reason I didn't trust you.

I love seeing the positive energy and good vibes that are back in this project. Would be great for the community to come together and get MG and RAZA out the door.

I don't think they are writing any letters, they are trying to come together as a group and get the project completed. Is it what they had in mind on the onset? Nope, but it sure is better than hiring lawyers to solve their problems (and get no game and maybe no money).

Also, now many will really ha e the chance to participate in the process of making these games.

Ice has a good amount of financial sophistication and transactional experience. If JPop lets him Ice can help...of this I have no doubt. Will JPop let Ice help him? Who knows but of course Ice is going to be optimistic about it.

Optimism is the only way to approach situations like these with struggling projects if you want them to see the light.

LMAO, what a horrible moment for me to post in here...right after that post. Ha!

Just my personal opinion based on some educated guesses, not a legal opinion on which anyone can rely:

You won't find embezzlement when you do a tracing of his accounts. You'll find he paid himself a salary (my guess is around 100k per year plus expenses). His legal defense basically be he was incompetent to do the task but not in bad faith. He will say he had no contract limiting his salary and based on his crazy hours and experience his salary was reasonable.

I don't see anyone getting criminal charges to stick on JPop, he has too many defenses (the incompetency defense is a good one against a bad faith argument). Just my personal opinion.

I'm curious about this as well. I wonder if you had a machine on rout already and were planning on putting this one on rout if that would change the status . . . (clearly it would be pretty wild to put a 17k machine on rout . . . but who knows, Kingpin is on rout right now and it is a 40k machine).

Vegas. PHOF.

Might not have been on the floor?

You could probably reasonably report it as a theft loss of personal property...but as I recall anyone who makes more than $170,000 would get zero deduction of the 17k game if reported that way. I would recommend each person check with their cpa.

Someone who is a rout operator would seem to be in the best position to deduct the loss here.

I think he meant tied in that they are equally depressing.

I disagree with him, Predator is a full fledged disaster (and Kevin at least appears to be a total thief right now), but JPop (previously one of the most beloved people in the hobby) is the bigger disappointment. The fact that he apparently doesn't know how to build a pin given his past accomplishments is truly shocking.

I edited it out. Ice is just frustrated like so many others. He put some time into trying and salvage the project and Ice's time is a valuable commodity that JPop disregarded.

We all wish you luck. I think the hope is gone that anyone can do this, this is not a question of your ability rather a question of the targets receptiveness.

But would actually be worth even less!!!

That would be amazing. I look forward to seeing yalls stuff in a pin one day.

That is the best news in this thread!

Or the answer is "nobody" and he just didn't want to show up at the show.

ZidwarePR, I'm going to send you a PM in a couple minutes. You are new to this site and claim to be associated with a controversial project. I think it would be best for all of us in this thread if I or another Moderator somehow validate you before you post further...should not take long.

This account is Kaneda - ZidwarePR. Duplicate account. Not a rep of Zidware. Ignore him. Ban will be issued on both this and his other account when I get to my cpu.

To be fair to Kaneda who I've instructed not to post further tonight, he says this is true and has some evidence to support it. He also says via pm he has permission direct from Robin to have this second account I have frozen.

I find this hard to believe but if it is true I will certainly apologize to him tomorrow.

Robin is asleep. No need to speculate further on the matter till he wakes up...

I am in between real life meetings right now so this post will be brief.

It appears kaneda actually was doing some PR work for Zidware and he has submitted evidence of such activities. Also, he and John were granted this zidwarePR handle by Robin to use for limited purposes. It was not intended to become an account that was posting in threads in the manner it was being used last night.

Anyway, I will unfreeze zidwarePR and allow kaneda to make one post in this thread to explain his relationship with JPop, Zidware, and whatever else he reasobaly wants to say. After that one post is done, since kaneda was already banned in this thread once under his personal account, he will be banned again under his zidwarePR account - so if you have questions for him pm him. As others have stated, kaneda was banned so we will not let him back in through this other account.

Finally, I said last night if I was wrong I would come on here, apologize to kaneda and eat crow. I'm exceedingly surprised about this entire situation but I do do owe kaneda an apology. Kaneda, you can make one post with zidwarePR in this thread, then do not post in here again. Thank you.

I checked this Strange guy's IP address and can surprisingly confirm he is not kaneda.

I make this post in jest of course with no offense meant to either Strange or kaneda.

I expect this one to pass it in a less than a month frankly. The Skit-b thread is going to slow down while Kevin K basically hides under his bed not refunding people and the heat dies on him.

I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps JPop is on some type of medication having a negative impact on his cognitive abilities . . .

I think the request for art samples is more indicative of some kind of obsession disorder.

If the project was totally turned over (100%) to competent people I think more buyers could be attracted to both projects (and AIW). JPop needs to be fully out though.

Normally I'd redact that...but it is so pertinent I'm going to let it stay. Another mod may not agree as it does have personal identification info...however im exceedingly curious as this may blow up one major myth...that JPop's spouse is loaded and he does not need to draw a salary...

That's about how I read it as well sadly.

One would expect he would answer the primary questions everyone has:

1) How much money is left?
2) How much money has been spent and on what exactly has it been spent ((ie. how much have you paid yourself in salary and/or consulting fees JPop)?
3) How much money is needed to build out your first game (ie. do you have to steal from Peter [Raza, AIW] to pay Paul [MG])?
4) Can you generate a real timeline set with actual goals along the way? Something other than, "games will start being produced in two months". A real path to manufacturing needs to be laid out.

Pinchili, you do not always need the last word. That was a real update that we were glad to receive.

Everyone knows John needs a solid plan, but people seeing he has a playable game (if he does) is the first bright point in awhile and would open up a couple options...as it would mean he was at least a bit further along than he hitherto appeared to be.

The inevitable of which you speak likely is that John will not be manufacturing these games. That does not mean that the games can't be manufactured at all and the further along he is with everything the more likely it can be finished off by others if JPop will play ball (big if based on history but it could happen).

I do not believe any of us really thought he would start providing two updates per week.

I did fall for Pinsider's playing MG and video will be coming soon thing though...

That is really great news!

OMG! That's hysterical. I need that on a shirt.

It is exceedingly tough to sell a business based on IP alone.

No one wants to assign value to just artwork and patents unless there is revenue to back up the IP and show it has value and I don't think expended pre-order deposits would be considered actual revenue by anyone (I know none of my clients would categorize it as such, it would be categorized as a liability...).

If that was indeed JPop's plan, it was the single worst idea I have heard during the month of April this year (and I hear bad ideas all the time).

If he has spent over $1,000,000 . . . my personal guess is about $600,000 was salary paid to himself over the years; about $150,000 a year sounds about right looking at things now. Could be higher if he wasn't paying vendors and what not.

If so, yes he has received his share of the money.

The word is he stopped drawing a salary three months ago . . . who did he tell that to again? Maybe Ice?

Godzilla with four arms and a horn isn't so bad. Obviously heavily "inspired" by Godzilla but I'm not sure if it is close enough to warrant litigation. The bones (or whatever they are) coming off his back are also very different than how Godzilla has always been portrayed.

Whoever comes in to finish the board set and code will want to start over. Those guys don't like "finishing" someone else's work, they will start from scratch most likely. I wonder if the original guy, whoever that was, could be re-hired?

The real question is when did he stop paying himself? He had to know about 18 months ago he had no path to manufacturing and not enough money to outsource it to JJP or Stern to build.

I think Ben is correct in his view that JPop had been waiting for a buyout and/or job for a long time and that was the only way these games would be made.

Of this I have no doubt. John is now likely scared he will be sued and disgorged of some or all of the salary he paid himself. His personal path forward now will be to make like a turtle and hide out till the heat and anger cools down. His reputation is already shot, his advisors will likely tell him not to make any more statements and he will likely never announce the project is dead.

Expect JPop in two or three years to still be saying he plans to "make these games one day soon"...does that sound familiar to any of you old timers (we all had an Austrialian friend who once pulled this with MM...).

He's stated more than once he was drawing a salary...just never said how much.

$150,000 per year is my guess, the delays helped him to make more money salary wise (as the years turned by) than he ever would have made in profits had he actually made the machines as manufacturing would have ate up the cash he was able to otherwise push to himself in the form of salary.

I don't know if this is true but I believe his IP attorney was not working at market level rates (he posts in this thread by the way, perhaps he would care to share). I don't think JPop will be able to say "the lawyers made all the money"...as his IP guy was working for free or at reduced rates...

This has not reached the level of criminal charges being brought by anyone (at least not that we know of yet). Apparently there have been legal letters sent to JPop that have thus far been ignored.

I agree. It would be hard to make criminal charges on JPop stick.

He will basically rely on the good faith but incompetent defense: "I meant to do what I said I would do, it just turned out I didn't know how to do it after all and by the time I realized it I used up all the money on salary and what not."

Some type of disgorgement action may work but unlike Kevin and Predator my guess is JPop will qualify to get a bankruptcy discharge.

Tried...wouldn't let me do it for some reason. Robin will retire it.

John must emit some type of LSD or other mind altering substance to those he enters communications with, it appears to be possible to transmit it even through phone lines.

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PavBall and I were like....

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I pulled the below off the net in just a few seconds (note I actually don't fully agree with it, for you to deduct money take from a fraud, most likely what this is, the fraud had to be illegal under state law and I'm not sure if that is the case):

A personal casualty loss (including a theft) is deductible if you itemize deductions. The measure of a casualty loss is the fair market value before the casualty, less the fair market value after, less any insurance proceeds. The decrease in market value can be estimated by repair costs that restore the property to it's prior condition.

If deductible, the loss must first be reduced by $100 (in 2009 - $500), and any remainder is deductible to the extent it exceeds 10% of your adjusted gross income. As an example, if your AGI is $50,000 and the personal portion of the loss is $12,000, then the deductible portion in 2010 is $ 6,900 ( $12,000 - $100 - $5,000).

Having real vacuumed formed ramps would be good news. It would show something is actually progressing. Enough to sooth everyone? No, not in and of itself but at least it some progress where there was none.

I respectfully disagree. Ice has some great ideas and is the type of person that gets things done. He is also somewhat of a bull in a china shop, what needs to happen is someone like Ice needs to work with one of the people in John's inner inner circle but not with John directly.

Heck, it wasn't that long ago Ice was even suggesting maybe he would finance the build out of the prototypes...how many people would even consider that?

Originally it was exclusivity...even more exclusivity than BBB.

It will pass Predator soon. Monday or Tuesday at the latest.

Could he (or whoever takes over the project, if anyone) do wire form ramps? I know those are usually more expensive but in small batches perhaps they would be cheaper...totally doesn't go with the art package though so perhaps it is a no starter.

The more I read things like this the more it is sounding to me that criminal charges might have a chance to stick after all. Clearly, that statement above was a straight lie.

And apparently: 6) a pinball designer who understands the engineering of spacing issues.

I'm concerned the "measure three times, cut once" ramps will have issues. I don't think JPop has these games nearly as far along as some seem to feel. Best I can tell, he (at least the last couple of years) did not intend to actually manufacture anything himself (he's been sitting back waiting for a buyout it seems) so he figured the engineering issues would be other people's problems.

Ben, if JPop would just turn these over to Spooky (without charging a royalty...JPop has paid himself MORE than enough for his lackluster efforts) what do you think the total cost would be at this time to actually get these games finished and manufacture them? I'm asking for an educated "best guess" based on what we are actually seeing right now.

My uninformed opinion is about 700k if everyone was switched to Magic Girl.

Thanks for the honest assessment Ben.

From a pure numbers perspective, with the initial "capitalization" (I guess we can call it that) seemingly exhausted by John's personal salary and/or other self dealing actions I just don't see this as salvageable any longer.

At this moment John looks like a straight bozo/buffoon. Nobody with any level of competency or sophistication is going to take him seriously in the investment world, regardless of their affection towards pinball. Just my opinion of course.

I'm going to retire myself from this thread for a few days gang.

I gave myself a week break from this thread, as I just couldn't take it anymore...but the above. Oh my god...someone put JPop in jail please. "Almost sold out"...better hurry and let me steal your money should have been what he said.

Your owned in the past list is kind of funny Ice.

This is totally right. Nothing can sour you to a subject like a scam. I expect several people are out of the hobby due to this, their spouses if nothing else will make them leave it.

True, they are not signing up to send anyone any money. John basically straight stole everyone's money and no one would sign up to send the prepayers any money...there is no reason for them to do that. Zidware has failed, John is a failure, lier and a thief to boot.

What they are doing is signing up to get the games built though. Do they need more money to do this? Yep, there is no flipping prototype and no money available to build one or build any games for anyone. They need more money.

Will they get more money? Remains to be seen. RAZA and AIW owners are rightfully unhappy with the situation more than MG owners (though there is a lot of overlap) as MG owners at least get a dollar for dollar conversion.

Yea, I feel bad for the cointaker gang. Anyone know if they remitted all the money they took in for RAZA to JPop?

My gosh, it let me add the game to my basket still . . . yea, they need to remove that from their website.

Might cause a run on the bank, so to speak. That could cause a delay or future interruption in the Hobbit manufacturing plans.

Maybe, but we are a lot more sensitive as a community to things than we were just a few months ago. While Philgate was bad late last fall, we are in full scale melt down mode right now with Predator and Jpop where people actually have lost a lot of money.

Something that did not overly alarm people four or five months ago is going to have a major impact now...even though it is technically old news we are looking at afresh.

That boiled down to core competency, which he lacks (no reason to pull punches at this stage). He did not have the mechanical aptitude to actually build the machine (*I won't even address the issue of the absence of his path to manufacturing*). Skit-B actually had more mechanical and electrical aptitude than JPop.

I guess we have learned that just because you once worked at NASA it doesn't mean you actually can build a space shuttle. JPop worked on the art because it was easy, he avoided the rest because it was hard.