RAZA1.jpg

RAZA2.jpg

RAZA3.jpg

I get the feeling that RAZA is going to have a CV feel to it.

Zidware pop bumper.png

I disagree.

Heard of Coulrophobia?

Clowns can be some scary shit!

WITH ALL DUE CREDIT!

Because of the rules. Not the PF design. Johns PF designs are mostly superb. I'd think it's not really his fault that the rules on some of his designs are lacking.

That said: who is doing the programming for RAZA? Is Ben Heck involved in this project at all anymore?

Like I already asked: 1) who is doing the programming? I'm assuming that JPop doesn't do programming, so I don't know if having"total control" is going to help the rules much. 2) Is Ben Heck still involved in this project in any way?

Seems like those 2 questions would be easy to answer, and certainly wouldn't violate any NDA.

So the thread should be locked?

Thanks. What were the circumstances with Ben leaving?

And who is doing the programming?

Yes. So back to it.

My questions are still unanswered regarding who is doing the programming, and what were the circumstances regarding Ben Heck no longer being involved in this project?

Also, like GProtein asked, and I've asked before too, who will be putting these together? It's a small run, so it doesn't make sense to have Stern do it like PPS is with MMr, but 125 pins is still way too many to have just a few guys doing it.

No clue. I don't follow the SkitB threads. So if you want to share, please feel free to tell me. Otherwise, I don't know what that has to do with this particular thread, unless JPop is using the same guys to assemble RAZA as the SkitB guys are using?

We aren't at production stage yet but I'm sure it will be a bunch of hamfisters and idiots doing the job.

Yeah? That's not good for a custom, high end $10k pin, is it?

Good point. And I really don't know who is doing the programming right now, yes it's happening, but most likely a total idiot wouldn't you think?

Why would I think a total idiot is doing the programming?

I ask what should be a damn simple question, and this is the response?

If people don't even know who is doing the programming at this stage of the project, this thread will be even more useless than I thought it would be.

Not sure if you were responding to my questions, but disclosing the name of who is doing the programming is not a violation of the NDA. Nor is disclosing who is going to be assembling the pin.

You say the programming "is happening" but you don't know who is doing it?

Iceman, you gave me a thumbs down for that post?

Does that mean that you disagree? Are you saying that it would be a violation of the NDA to disclose the name of the programmer or who is assembling the pin?

I'm really starting to think that this is a troll thread that you started. Seriously.

I've asked completely legitimate questions that should be easy to answer, and all you do is get personal and super defensive, with answers like

What kind of response is that? Can't you be calm and not take things so personally? Again, these should be EASY QUESTIONS TO ANSWER. Not one's that incite the kind of responses that you are giving.

If you think that our questions are legit, then why did you give some of the responses that you did about the programmer "being an idiot, don't you think" or the pins being assembled by "hamfisted idiots"?

Those don't sound like responses someone would give if they thought the questions were legit.

If you don't know, just say you don't know. Then there wouldn't be all this back and forth nonsense.

If I were still in on RAZA, at this point I would be asking for some very specific answers with regard to a timeline/estimate as to when the pin will be done and ready to ship.

Given that the original estimate for completion was the end of 4th quarter last year, I would think a fairly definitive answer to this question could (or at least *should*) be given by now since we are in the 3rd quarter of the following year.

I understand what you are saying, but this far into the project he should be able to give an estimate without it being pulled "out of his ass".

Me too!

Was wondering if someone else was going to say that. I was thinking the same thing.

I like the artwork on the cab a lot (although I think the alien has far too similarity to another alien), but that backglass doesn't look good to me. Too busy, with little standing out. No "wow" factor.

If he has to re-do it, I think that's a good thing.

Perhaps a dozen revisions too many?

I think showing up at Expo with empty cabinets this late in the game is a major fail. How could that have not been done at last years Expo? Or the year before that? It's an empty cabinet with the side art on it.

What's the point? I mean I know you guys that have preorders in have more info that what JPop showed (empty cabs) so I guess I don't see the point of this.

Yep.

But the entirely new art package he has the year after that will be even better!

Did I miss something?

This thread has exploded.

Looks like the RAZA and MG owners who have been patient as hell are finally getting fed up given the joke of a showing by JPop at Expo. He sure seemed to be proud of those empty RAZA cabinets though!

A lot of this is a real disaster, and some of it I am really having a hard time comprehending. Seriously, some of the original MG owners weren't even aware of the fact that JPop is increasing the production number on that pin?! That's completely inexcusable.

Then the RAZA artwork. WTF? Is it a zombie pin, or an Alien pin? Or a robot pin? Or a Godzilla pin? How can the main focal point on the backglass be an alien, not a zombie?

I seriously hope that you guys that are in on this have a hell of a lot more information than those of us who aren't in have. Because from the outside, things don't look good.

Those empty cabinets at Expo are a perfect metaphor.

Great post, coming from an ardent JPop supporter who has shown a great deal of patience and has been very optimistic about these projects.

Too many other great options coming up to put up with this.

I'm assuming the "other guy" is Ben Heck?

A contract is a two way street. You can't just bind one side to the terms of a contract and not the other.

While the terms of the contact indicated that there would be no refunds allowed after a certain date, there was also a timeline given for certain production milestones, including build dates and delivery of the pin.

Since those dates have come and gone, there is a breach of contract. As such, anyone (ANYONE) who has put money down is entitled to get their money back despite the terms of the contract saying the money isn't refundable.

The obvious caveat would be if there was a new contract agreed on where a new production schedule was set forth, signed by the buyer and Zidware.

I'm not advocating a lawsuit by anyone, but if a buyer were to ask for a refund and they are denied, this would be a very quick and easy Judgment in their favor if it ever had to get to that point.

Huh?

What does the above have to do with anything in terms of a lawsuit? Just because it's a LLC means what? The LLC (Zidware) would be liable. Not JPop personally. So?

What am I missing here?

Exactly.

And that's how it is with any pinball manufacturer. Seriously, who the hell would be stupid enough to start a pinball company without forming an LLC?

Again, the fact that JPop has an LLC has nothing to do with whether or not a suit should be filed. Nothing.

It's the LLC that has the money that was put down. Not JPop himself.

I am confident that we are talking past each other.

Please understand my point, which is the fact that Zidware being LLC has zero to do with anyone considering a lawsuit to recover their deposit having second thoughts because of that fact.

Nobody is talking about insolvency! We are talking about a simple suit to get a deposit back. From the company it was paid to. That's Zidware, which is a LLC.

You are acting as though nobody should file suit simply because it's an LLC. That makes no sense at all. A few people filing suit to get their deposit back isn't going to cause Zidware to be insolvent. If it does, the problems are bigger than we thought. But even then, the fact that it's an LLC has nothing to do with it.

You seem to be implying that if JPop's personal assets were available, only then would a suit make sense? As though JPop is a rich guy or something?

^ Well said.

Again, though, I would say that a few guys asking for a refund of their deposit shouldn't put Zidware into insolvency. If it did, that means the pins were probably never going to be finished anyway.

Obviously if there was a "run on the bank" where everyone started demanding their deposits back, there would be an issue of insolvency.

I'm glad that you guys lit a fire under John's butt, and that he has responded in a way to make you happy.

But from someone who was formerly in on this, and now looking in from the outside, my 2 cents at this point is that you guys should all be getting a new schedule with dates for production milestones to be completed.

This was done in the original packet/contract, and those dates obviously no longer apply. Get a new schedule from JPop. He's almost 3 years in, he should be able to give a much more accurate schedule at this point. This would help keep his feet to the fire, knowing that he has to have certain things accomplished by a certain point.

Otherwise, you guys are all still in the exact same boat that you were before, and we could be having this same conversation again next year.

Maybe he did give a new production schedule in his recent blog posts? If so, that would be great news.

That would be fantastic for all involved.

As one of the original buyers when RAZA (BHZA at the time) was announced, I can tell you that one of the main reasons I got out was due to the complete lack of any information regarding the status of the project. There was no communication at all. If wanted to know something, you had to call or email John. Half the reason I got it is because I wanted to have fun, "enjoy the ride" so to speak, by watching things develop and progress along the way. When it became obvious that this wasn't going to happen, it just didn't make sense for me to stay in.

Things have apparently been a little better since I got out, with John posting some things on the blog etc. but it still doesn't sound like there's a whole lot of info being provided, especially in terms of pictures, which is probably due to his fear of being copied (some might call it paranoia).

That's bad ass!

Well, you JPop preorder guys can at least take some solace in knowing that you aren't the only ones who are having issues:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/predator-a-scam

Thanks! I do my best.

The art with aliens and clowns instead of Zombies?

Aliens and saucers are secondary to the Zombie theme in the flyer. Quite contrary to the side cab art.

What's interesting is that the 2016 quote, as you say, comes in the form of the question, not in JPop's response.

So where did the 2016 date come from?

Jpop didn't correct him though, so.....

If I were still in on this, I would be livid that the only progress made to this point is a basic whitewood. I'm not even sure it's a flippable whitewood at this point?

Either way, a whitewood at this point in the timeline means it is 2 years behind schedule. How the hell does it take 3 years to do a basic whitewood?!? Yes, I know that other things are done as well like the cabinet, but still, this is really further behind schedule than I thought it would be.

The way I see it is that many RAZA owners are going to be watching very closely to see what JPop does with MG and his big "reveal" that is supposed to happen next month (December 2014). If that doesn't happen, the natives are going to get (more) restless.

If MG is revealed as a fully functioning pin and it blows everyone away, it will have a positive impact on what JPop is doing and give RAZA owners some level of confidence as well. Just how much confidence is another issue, since revealing a full working proto of MG is still a long way from producing and shipping RAZA.

Wow. Still another year for MG?

Most annoying poster on Pinside.

Exactly.

If that's what he did (and I have no reason not to believe that's what happened) there is nothing that would prevent him from doing the same thing with RAZA. Nothing!

There has been talk about how it would be a good thing if JPop could hook up with a company like JJP to come in and actually build the pins for JPop, as this would speed things up a lot in terms of getting the pins made and out the door once he is (finally) done designing them. But my fear would be if this is done, it would be easy to feel like he should increase the number of RAZA pins as well in order to recoup more money/increase profit. He probably didn't feel comfortable trying to make more than 125, but if a company like JJP teamed up with him, this would no longer be a limiting factor.

That would suck for the guys who have been in on this since the beginning. Actually it would suck for all who are in, regardless of how long.

Speaking for myself (I was one of the original buyers when this was announced as Ben Heck's Zombie Adventureland), I got in because 1) it was a chance to get a Zombie themed pin, which was my most desired theme; 2) JPop was going to design it, meaning it would have excellent artwork and the pin would shoot great; 3) it would be unique and collectible

You know that you can't prove a negative, right counselor?

Wait. What were the specifics in terms of what JPop said that the "reveal" would entail? Where is it going to take place? I thought this was going to be some type of public reveal at a show or something?

I always assumed a TBL "rug" style reveal would be similar to what DP did at Expo, given how impressed JPop was with that presentation/reveal.

A reveal consisting of nothing more than pictures would be an epic disappointment.

Crock.

So you have an NDA in place even though you aren't working together?

Makes perfect sense!

This is the bottom line, and is why NDA's like those in place with the owners aren't really worth the paper that they are written on. Like you said, the only leverage he would really have would be to issue a refund and say "no pin for you".

I know that the NDA that I signed certainly didn't include a liquidated damages clause.

These timelines are very interesting to watch among all the manufacturers (except Stern). When will TBL be released? Everyone seems so positive that they know what they are doing, can do no wrong, and will deliver the pin on time. Why? They haven't manufactured a pin before.

Nordman just quit Heighway Pinball based on losing sleep over people putting down deposits based on him being the designer and being told Alien would be ready by April 2015, a date that he doesn't see as possible.

SkitB is already far behind schedule, and it remains to be seen when Predator will see the light of day.

MMr was supposed to be shipping by the end of the 2nd quarter, so they are already half a year behind.

It's going to be interesting to see how close to their shipping estimates pins like Alien, TBL, MMr, and even Hobbit will come.

I love the "man up and get the f#%king job done" attitude, but there needs to be some balance as well. I think Andrew Heighway has this attitude, but it may have led to the departure of Dennis Nordman from the company.

Thanks for your valuable contribution to the thread.

I think it should be obvious by now that anyone who is in on any of the JPop pre-orders have to have thick skin and be able to take things in stride.

I'm confused by which post resulted in you suddenly becoming so upset that you feel the need to drain the thread?

As far as I know, the refund policy never changed.

I don't remember the exact amount of time/dates, but the original deposit (made years ago) was fully refundable up to a certain date. After that date elapsed, refunds would no longer be available until that spot was sold. As Frolic said, originally there was a list of people waiting to get in, so even after that date, refunds were still not much of an issue.

As more time has elapsed, with little signs of this pin shipping any time soon (especially with MG nowhere to be found), combined with all the other new offerings coming out (including TBL etc), fewer people are on the wait list (if any) and people find themselves having to sell their spot in line themselves, usually without success.

If JPop was able to come through with an amazing "TBL effect rug reveal" with a fully working protype of MG, you'd probably have more people willing to take a chance on RAZA and buy a few of the spots from people who want refunds.

At some point, though, this is going to come to a head, and if more meaningful information isn't forthcoming in terms of when RAZA will be shipping, you will have more people getting to the point of *demanding* a refund (vs. "requesting" a refund) and that's where things could really start to go bad.

Frankly I think a lot is riding on MG and it's big "reveal" (some photos sent only to MG owners does not constitute a "TBL effect" reveal).

I forgot that he still has to ask for more money from you guys soon.

That's when things are really going to get interesting. The good news is that for anyone to pay up, it means that he has provided some meaningful information to give a certain degree of confidence to make that additional payment. Right?

Please excuse my French, but YOU HAVE GOT TO BE FUCKING KIDDING ME!

So the "reveal" is only to the few owners of MG, and even they don't get to see the actual game at this point?

I don't think the word "reveal" means what he thinks it means.

It's been 4 years for MG.

I think there's a great song in there somewhere!

It was a mistake for Cointaker to get involved in this to begin with. I don't know how much money they were going to make on each CT version, but I doubt it was worth the risk. I assume that CT simply forwarded the deposit money that they received to Zidware? If so, it is highly unlikely that CT will issue any refund until they get the money back from Zidware.

I would think that the people who ordered through Cointaker are in a slightly better position than those who ordered direct from Zidware, as they are a more proven company that would have liability for the refund on top of Zidware.

Those who bought from Cointaker: who did you make the check payable to? Cointaker or Zidware?

I wonder what kind of company Zidware is? LLC?

.

I would like to respectfully nominate these back to back posts by Aurich for the Best Pinside Rant of the Year.

Where do I send my ballot?

This post is a bit ridiculous, off topic, and misses the point. It's amazing to me how so many people on Pinside now get so completely hung up on the word "investment".

It's pretty simple, really. Anyone who paid money into this project (on a pre-order basis as nothing was built yet) is invested in it's success. Whether they intended to make money or not is of zero relevance to this fact. The payoff would be receiving the pin.

He bailed on the thread because of too much negativity.

Seems like you made plenty of statements in your rant.

Carry on.

Expecting to see? Or wanting to see?

Big difference.

I think many were not expecting to see a major kick ass "Lebowski effect" reveal of a completed/fully functioning prototype of MG, but I think we were all really wanting to have those expectations proven wrong.

This thread would have a completely different feel to it if there was a kick ass "reveal" of MG.

If I were still in on BHZA (now RAZA which seems to be a very different pin than the one that I signed up for), I would be agreeing with you on this. Not having any money down on it can certainly result in having a different perspective.

Looking at this from the point of view of still having money in, I certainly agree with you that it is too soon to go the scorched earth route (lawsuit) as that would have a snowball effect (you would certainly wind up with multiple parties/plaintiffs joining in, wanting to save money on attorney fees by splitting the bills) that would doom the project for sure.

Having said that, I would concentrate on nothing other than demanding answers from JPop in terms of getting a new timeline for completion of various aspects of the project being completed, including expected production and delivery dates. (edit: funny, thinking about it, I said the same thing the last time that this thread exploded 2 months ago...)

If he doesn't stick to the new timeline, I would set some personal drop dead date for having enough information to know that the game would be shipping. If that date came and went and there was no indication that shipping was imminent, I would go full blown legal action (with others). You just can't let this go on forever, even if the money is gone, you need to put a stop to the charade.

Discovery in that case would be fun. I'd like to see him try and use his NDA as an excuse to not answer interrogatories!

Do you think there is even a small, tiny, remote possibility that this information would be freely given by JPop?

Not a chance. If you want this info, there is only one way to get it: filing a lawsuit.

Couldn't agree more.

Well said, and my post should not be construed as a recommendation for filing of a lawsuit. I was just saying that there is no way that JPop would ever give out that info on his own free will.

So funny, that Adobe video was the most exciting thing we've seen yet (without being at his shop in person).

Have you even bothered to read the recent posts by owners in this thread?

Your whole post is a bit over the top, not helpful or insightful, and implies that the owners are a bunch of idiots as they aren't thinking "logically".

Thanks, though, for letting everyone know that you are "truly glad" that you don't have any money in on this and never did.

Thanks for the response. I enjoy the vast majority of your posts, so the prior post didn't sound like what I would expect from you, so your explanation above makes a lot more sense to me.

I saw that and thought the same thing.

What is even more important regarding the above is the fact that per Ben Heck, he had already been working on what became AMH for quite some time (I can't remember for sure what he said...but I am pretty sure it was more than 6 months) before Spooky even announced that game.

I know Ben reads this thread occasionally so maybe he can chime in?

I think it's the other way around: I.e., you would have to force Stern or JJP to hire him.

Reading that thread is interesting.

Here is a post that I made...more than 2 years ago (damn time flies!):

So no communication 2 years ago.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Oh, and this was posted more than 2 years ago too:

I thought he was an owner?

I dunno, maybe the lawyers are smart enough to know when filing a lawsuit *isn't* the answer to getting a refund?

It could have a domino effect.

Will JPop even bother responding to emails anymore? Does he respond to anyone who sends him an email asking for a refund? If so, what does he say?

Wow! It used to be that you could call him on his cell phone directly. Or email. Now he doesn't respond to either, and his voicemail has been full since November? And no response on the blog?

I just don't even know how to respond to that. I am sitting here wanting to type out how I would feel and what I would do under these circumstances, but it just seems like it would pale in comparison to what you guys who still have thousands of dollars on the line are actually experiencing.

Seriously, I didn't even realize that it had actually gotten this bad. I definitely empathize for how you feel, even knowing that you didn't want to go that route.

I can't believe that he has bailed on you guys like this.

Agreed.

^ I lol'ed

And this is what the owners will have to think about and decide what they believe in terms of whether the money is gone or not, and whether RAZA can ever be made.

If the owners decide that the money is probably gone and/or that RAZA can not be produced, it would make no sense to be satisfied with a written timeline from JPop.

My concern is that if the money is in fact almost gone, JPop has incentive to come up with a written timeline that he swears that he can and will comply with, which may very well only serve to further delay the inevitable, and eat up even more of the deposit money with it. Meaning that when a lawsuit is filed after he once again fails to comply with a timeline, there will be even less money available in whatever "pot" is left.

I'm sure that the owners will all be discussing these issues in private, hopefully with Doug (Ice).

That's the entire problem. Nobody has to "imagine" anything.

Lame how?

Face it, the only way that people were going to pay this kind of money up front was based on the promise of exclusiveness/rarity of a JPop designed pin. It's a risk/reward calculation. The risk is high (that's even more obvious now) but so is the potential reward. MG is going to be much more rare than RAZA, thus the higher price. The addition of more MG's to the run would piss me off if I was a buyer. I would hope that JPop got the other owners consent to do this, or offered them a refund.

The horror!

The "pinball for all" mantra doesn't work for everyone. JPop isn't Stern...and doesn't want to be.

4 years later and the PF artwork isn't done?

Why is he showing it like it's something new then? Didn't make sense to me. A picture of the PF should be old news by now.

Nobody ever said that it was *only* about Zombies. But that was most obviously the central theme. If it wasn't, I wouldn't have ordered it.

I see nothing in your list about Godzilla or Robby the Robot, or the Mars Attacks alien. And the backglass shown briefly at Expo had the Alien as the main feature, not a zombie. (see post #1700 by Frolic for the pic of the backglass).

The main focal point of RAZA no longer appears to be zombies.

I completely disagree about it being cooler looking because of that.

I thought the backglass shown at Expo was terrible.

Bingo.

Agreed, but I wouldn't be surprised if in JPop's mind he is equating "investors" to "customers".

Wouldn't make much sense in the context of that post though. I'd be asking why he's looking for investors at this late stage of the game? Did he just now come to the realization that he won't have enough capital to make the pins?

I understand completely. Just not sure if he does. I just don't understand where the "investors" thing came from? Is this something new? What kind of investors is he talking about? Bank loan? Equity partners? Is the project in jeopardy if he is not successful in getting investors on board?