I think transformers LE's (at least the Autobots and Decepticons) were upped slightly right after they were announced. Good thing, there were almost not enough of those to go around (that being said everything's obvious in hindsight).

Would it have been any better if the "international edition", or Scooby Red had been announced?

At 10x the price I should hope so

Honestly I was tempted to start a similar thread, but thought it would do more harm than good. What is the "going rate" for one of these spots, given the current climate?

I was tempted to start the bidding at $1000; this seems comically low for a position that is paid up to $6500.

However $6300 also seems really... optimistic.

Yeah, that is a big variable. If John manages to whiff the expected Jan/Feb reveal as bad as he did at expo, 1G might be the going rate...

HOPEFULLY he knocks it out of the park so bad anybody who wants out can unload their positions. If the hype train goes fast enough, who knows they might be able to be sold at a profit (party like its 2012?).

We'll find out soon if John will be a hero... or a pariah.

Even if he comes off well in the next day/week/month he still needs to finish and manufacture the damn games.

If this turns out to be another "secret" reveal... good luck. You will need it.

This was almost worse than having no reveal at all. At least that could be blamed on lack of a plan.

Showing only art today suggests the guns are out of ammo. Probably not the case, but why come out with a whimper when you can knock us out with a bang?

I was pulling for something, anything resembling good news. Please let me know if I missed it.

Teach a yourself to fish, or expect to be fed for the rest of your life?

I have no problem helping people out, but draw the line when it is clear someone expects the other party to do everything. Google is your friend. We can be friends too, but don't expect everybody to spoon feed you everything

"See" them sounds like the operative word. At this point even seeing a fully completed flipping game would be a massive victory.

Consider the only good news I can see from the last while is the leaked vids... give me a break. That was supposed to be a big reveal for March-ish? It seems like these games are nowhere near done if that was the case.

Anybondy thinking these things will be shipping en masse in 2015 has a much more optimistic spirit than I do at this point.

At this time, the odds of another reveal at this years expo without playable games is larger than having something resembling a production ready MG to show off.

I am happy to be proven wrong, but even the diehard faithful are losing their patience...

I am less certain people are paralyzed, than there is just no way out at this point. I remember discussing a lowball amount of say $1K to buy out a position; there is no way I would expect a "patron" at this point to sell at that price. I would probably just ride it out.

But the flip side is with ALL this negative news, and apparently NO positive news regarding these games actually getting done (please let me know if I missed it), even a $1K buyout at this point is probably optimistic.

Several people have stated they would sell spots lately, I haven't seen anybody claim to have a completed deal recently.

I agree; it would also be fiscally irresponsible for me to step in at $1K at this point.

Paralyzed; stuck; in for the long haul. An apt description of the unfortunate benefactors of this project. I am not trying to rub anybody's nose in it. I could even be (gasp!) wrong.

But for me this is how off the rails things seem to have gone...

This will hopefully not come off as being captain hindight-ish, but watching this thread has cause me to to make some different conclusions to some events of the past few years.

Ben being removed from BHZA seems to me like a way to get his name off the project literally. It was explained it was due to "customer demand" or something similar at the time. I thought it might have been due to them parting ways near that time. This seemed more probable than a bunch of people wanting to retheme the game they had already decided to pay for.

Now it seems like it could have just as easily been away to for Ben to get out, and did not want his name associated with this project (he has more inside knowledge than anyone else I would imagine on the true state of Zidware, at least of a year or two ago).

Also with JPop being given second class treatment at shows over the last two years. He shows up, and apparently is not even invited to give talks or whatever. It seemed like he had to fight for a spot at last year's expo? Were the show organizers aware of "this or that" and did not want their show associated with him? Or did he not have it together enough to get invited to the show? And this is coming from someone who thinks the one time I did see him speak at a show, it was one of the best if not THE best pinball seminars I have seen.

Yes I had forgotten Ice was the one who started this thread, to discuss "positive" news only. Positive news is being disussed, but posititive in terms of closing in on JPoP to DEMAND answers, come hell or high water.

I am sure this is part of the truth as well. IF there was zero pressure on Ben's part to get his name off this project, it is a good example of one of my favorite motto's: It is better to be lucky than good.

So many times in my life i have had fortune smile upon me. Often I have helped "make my own luck" but sometimes things just work out in ways better than you would have expected.

I can't even believe the UL testing would even be on the radar at this point, for 17, or 50, or whatever games. That would seriously blow my mind. At least the patent stuff I can sorta see, but that seems like lighting your money on fire.

I think I must be in an awful mood, but I am wondering how much time he spent re-engineering the coin door for this "home" pinball

I am hoping the answer is "none", but after hearing about how everything else has been built from the ground up I have to wonder...

All of the suspect character use seems troubling to me and I like (LOVE!) the idea of a sci-fi greatest hits table.

John is (was?) obsessed with secrecy as he was afraid of others stealing his ideas, yet many of these ideas at least seem borrowed from others? (I am being charitable here, I think).

Also, I like the idea of the ultimate unlicened artist gone wild table, having a bunch of stuff suggestive of licenses on it . It is telling on how hardcore pinball players are about not wanting licensed titles, UNLESS that is the pinball offered for sale

Dangnab all this pinball discussion... on a pinball discussion forum of all places! Someone should write a sternly worded letter.

Yes.

Haters may have to hate, but ostriches...

Yes. But I am not an armchair psychiatrist.

I think someone who still has John's ear should explain the "great harm" he has done, well, ... by not doing anything to get even a funcioning MG prototype together.

As other people have said, even IF you had a hardware complete game that was production ready, you still have the small matter of:
- actually picking a boardset
- coding it, and making it "not crappy"
- video creation/integration, sound / voice effect creation

And actually producing it. I am sure I missed a thousand small details as well.

Honestly, the buyers in this case will likely be lucky to end up with the real doll. Doesn't bring me joy to state that, but that is how far up the brown creek this project appears...

Nice; you have shown more concrete progress on your game in that one pic than I have seen from John. And that is just sad.

I remember a post however many pages back (but not THAT long ago) where someone staggered in here and was wanting to put money down on AIW because it was their "dream theme".

Honestly the only way that would make sense from my perspective was if it was a secondary account of John's. But how many (real) people out there are like that and just have not or would not come across this thread?

Even one at this point is too many IMO... but I am sure it will happen.

I am not sure if at this point "owners" is an accurate term.

If I paid for something years ago, it was not delivered, and after repeated requests for a refund I was ignored I am not sure I would identify myself as an "owner" of anything. I can think of some other words, but owner is not one of them.

It represents a portion of the money sent to JPOP years ago, with at this point no games in sight.

I have read the total amount over the multiple games is over a million.

One big difference is Kevin was able to show off a coded, working prototype pin and dragged it to multiple shows.

Yeah the art was pretty poor and there was no licence and a million other (negative) things could be said about Kevin... but how bad is the JPOP disaster when JPOP is not even able to show off a flippable whitewood aat this point? YEARS into the project(s).

As Stan Lee would say: 'nuff said.

I don't know how harassing JPOP will somehow help. Yeah, it might feel okay to blow off steam but there is no way I would sacrifice the moral high ground for that.

He is currently clearly the jerk in the situation; don't make it confusing by being a jerk too

That being said I would understand the kid gloves coming off to try to get resolution. People stating "this is no Skit B" or "he just needs more time" or "maybe someday" all COULD be right. But all logic points to a much less positive outcome based on available information.

SkitB got away with what they got away with for so long because people without a horse in the race by and large ignored it and people involved generally did not ask the tough questions as the answers can hurt.

It honestly speaks to how generally positive Pinside is that so many red flags can be present for so long without getting caught.

They were. He wasn't.

End of line, Dillenger.

I can't think of a response to this in regards to Kaneda that is not a personal attack. Ha-rumph.

Given all the competent help JPOP has turned down, that he decided to work with Kaneda shows that the only "up" from here is "up in flames". Zing.

Yep. Pretty much sums it up.

Me too; who knows maybe things are not as bad as they seem?

Sounds like a line from a mid grade comedy:
John will be providing two updates per week going forwards: Jack and Squat (and squat just left town...).

Can we just start referring to JPop as JDirt? At least Joe Dirt still brings a smile to my face...

Unfortunately, right now JPop reminds me more of Dean in Fubar: He just goes out and "gives 'er 110%", without any actual plan...

Hopefully that at least puts a smile on someone's face... I apparently have a weak spot for mullet movies.

Million dollar question: How complete is it and does it play well?

I will be unsurprised if you are unable to answer publicly, but I figure it can't hurt to ask...

This is actually some good news

Set emotions to snark:

If you play your cards just right you might be allowed to play the same partially completed game next year!

Given the size of most pinball runs these days, $125 bucks a machine does not seem like much of a payday (I imagine any of the three games shown would be VERY lucky to break 1000 units at current pricing). Especially when you are fending off lawsuits from your initial buyers. More likely you are lucky to say $125 X 600... not nothing, but hardly worth scheming years to collect.

I don't disagree or forget this, just if the grand plan was to sell the games to another manufacturer from the get-go, it was a terrible plan on many fronts (lying to buyers, relying on someone with an actual plan to sweep in and save you etc...).

Honestly, it makes a plan like "just taking a bunch of money and running" seem logical. How messed up is that?

You are a reasonable guy, so I hate to say this, but I can't at all imagine we live in world where AIW would be a bigger seller than TBL, assuming games of reasonably equal quality. Just look at the buzz on this board when each was announced. Heck, there was a preorder list for TBL before the game was even a thing you could order. Many Mad Hatter profile pics on pinside?

Basically... I think you are (gasp!) wrong about this.

I 100% agree with the potential being there regarding AIW. Just time and time again when push has come to shove, unlicenced pins get the cold shoulder when it comes time for people to open their wallets. Heck even BHZA and whatever it morphed into lean heavily on "inspired by license" material.

Ben Heck, licensed brand (I realize no money probably changed hands). Then that did not work so lets just be "inspired" by Toho and Mars Attacks.

People complain they want unlicenced themes, just not any that appear to come up for sale apparently

I am not sure of much, but I am sure JJP is not paying factory workers to stand around all day as a standard part of business. They are building WoZ, or if really not needed they would be laid off temporarily. That's just the way business is.

Everybody agrees with this including JJP; with their current model to date, if they have a dud, they are dead. One pin that does not sell like hot-cakes? Shut 'er down.

BBB is not really my thing, but I figure if a potentially vaporware game that might not be made is going to be worth say a 8K gamble on my part, then I should also be okay forking over $13K for a known quantity (e.g. is the game any good now that it acutally exists?).

My limit is around $5K anyways, and I am out of space, so my opinion is moot as a new buyer...

I think given Chris' commitment to ordering machines (~20-30?) and his role as the LED vendor, "investor" might not be the right word but he is no average customer either.

John seems to be treating eveybody equally though: Like Chumps

Most great games are able to keep the whole playfield interesting most of the time. SM and LOTR are good ezamples of using the whole playfield in an interestint manner across most of the game.

Honestly there is probably mix of people who don't want you to go there to get hypnotized, and another mix of people who are skeptical of how well you could see through the wall of BS that may be thrown at you given "past history".

I have to give JPOP credit for keeping on posting; hard to criticize him for not speaking, or keeping everything secret, then jump on him when he does speak.

Also listening to his voice, and his continued joy/pride was nice, reminded me of listenting to Jpop's talk seemingly forever ago at the NW pinball and gamroom show. It was a terrific, passionate pinball presentation.

That is why it is so hard to hear he was "lucky" with the shooter rod. Looking at it seems to be too high and too far to the right. Not knowing what parts might be missing, I am happy to be wrong. But LUCKY you can get the glass on and off???

WHAAAAAAAT?

Yeah, but this is the thirdish post in the last few weeks?

But this bit of "luck" makes me wonder even more what the odds are of the ramps turning out perfect on the first go. Oh well. If he is hauling his game for the Pacific NW show, I can see in person.

Maybe its a long term stragegy to buy "investment grade" pinball machines NIB and horde them for years, then sell them for the big payoff.

MMR LE, KISS LE... you'd be a fool NOT to invest

I think that is a good summary of my feelings; I like Jpop but he has gone out of his way to ruin himself it seems. Due to some personality disorder or just plain hubris is hard to tell... but it is what it is.

Agree with this; I understand frustration, but seeing multiple posters stating they will walk away from the hobby because of this situation is sad, I don't understand the logic. Just pure emotion I guess.

Heck, even Rarehero stating he will sell out if TBL goes south? This from the guy who always is (was?) saying how he does not care if games go down, because he bought many of them for so damn cheap back in the day?

The warning signs on this have been as large as the Hollywood hills sign for a long time, especially post expo. Sending money for at the moment vaporware games carries big risk. This should not be a newsflash. Take all the risks you take on by buying a sight unseen game from across the country from someone you barely trust (shipping risk, unseen damage risk, is the person even going to ship you the game?), then multiply those risks by a hundred it seems.

New thought that I have not seen brought up:

What are the odds the "licensee" is just a LLC shell type company John has created to transfer his liability from himself to the new entity?

Sounds like madness, but from John's perspective it sounds like a perfect solution. He gets to protect himself, and he gets to keep noodling for another 4 or so years. It also explains the lack of logic in the plan.

Truly a desperation play, but in desperate times what else you gonna do?

Sorry if this was already brought out, it has been hard to keep up.

Forever is a long time, but thank you for the clarification... I must have mis-remembered trying to keep up with this thread.

Honestly this "new deal" seems textbook John:

- secrets!
- budget has not been worked out (doh!)
- crazy timelines!
- vagueness! (e.g. still looking for a production partner?)
- it is everything you want it to be! Stay in on RAZA and AIW? Who knows MAYBE they will be made!
- optimism and happiness!

If I were John and trying to fund myself for more years, and remain in control, why not use a shell company he controls to buy himself out.

The part of the story (that I can remember) that does not add up is the part about the team of people who are proven to be able to build the games; who are these people?

Ouch! Too soon IMO. But hey, I'm like perfect and stuff

Good luck! You're gonna need it!

And seriously, I hope you succeed. It will be like trying to move a mountain I imagine.

Cliff notes version if I understand correctly:

The good:
- have until the end of June to make a choice
- will be able to see a complete or near complete MG in ~ 2 weeks
- games will maybe get made
- the plan will not go forward until John's books can be examined (e.g. is he squirreling away fat cash?)

The bad:
- John might get paid more money
- John does not get personally destroyed in the process (putting this in the negatives based on comments)
- Vendors do not get paid?
- assets might "disappear" over the next month or two
- people might actually make money on this... eventually.
- who in their right mind would pay 16K on a sorta mass produced game? Your resale out the gate would be what, ~10K at best UNLESS it is somehow the next coming of MM.

I am sure I missed some stuff... feel free to add to the lists as you see fit.

This is the big mystery to me, hopefully this will be made more clear with the MG reveal. Maybe these game(s) are near complete physically and play really well.

IF toys/mechs etc. are still not final, and all you have is layout and art, why not just "borrow" (be inspired by!) aspects of existing layout, get new art and start from scratch rather than wade into this mess? Actually complete the game physically and get a BOM before agonizing over the art.

I am a fairly grumpy skeptic, but even I am starting to (even if just a bit)... BELIEVE!

Anybody still defending John at this point though serously needs to stick a boot in it. Unless Rotordave is somehow being strung along, accepting deposits / trying to sell a few games a few (?) weeks ago just reeks. Seriously, there is no excuse for that.

Add this up with all of John's other failings (not taking responsibility for this mess, pissing money apparently into the wind, suggesting the threat of legal action on his critics/customers in a recent letter, worrying about vents rather than software... etc...) and what the heck are you defending?

He is not the worst person on the planet, but given that he has probably lived his dream for at least some of these years (been his own boss, in his own mad scientist lab, working on whatever the heck crossed his brain for the day) he is not the hard done by party in this.

After having said that, I can think of only possibly one person defending John a bit at this point, and even he seems to be wavering a bit...

John has travelled to the NW pinball show for the last 3-4 years IIRC. He has been there at least several times.

Last year I ended up buying a MG framed artwork print, as much as a thank you and contribution towards airfare as anything else. I still thought things were a longshot at that point though, it seemed weird/uncomfortable to be getting even a small piece of the game when owners had nada to show for it at that point.

And to answer the actual question, it is likely John should stay away from the show. Best for his mental and possibly physical health, and for those he has taken money from. Tempers can flare, crimes of passion can be unpredicable.

As it sits, is it impossible to imagine someone trying to make off with the MG proto that is "owed" to them at this point? Is it theft if you paid for the damn thing years ago? (yes, obviously, but if you are out 30K it might be easy to talk yourself into this logic...).

I thought my mind could not be blown any further by this thread.

I was... wrong.

One of the pintasia principals apparnently having a "colorful" set of past connections??? Visual identification after just long enough for pintasia to give some "exceptionally earnest" non-answers?

Mind blown, full on nuclear explosion style...

if this keeps up I might end up joining the lawsuits due to damage to my skull.

Honestly I am still hoping this all works out, but until we see something more than "lots of people could be named..." I can see people wanting to wait until the games are finished, and they can pick up in person, before forking over another 10K.

This is seriously crazy town, either no good deed is going unpunished or what the heck is going on in pinball land? I'd like to think we were not considered easy marks, after Skit P and Jpoop... I might be wrong.

Yes, but IF it follows the track record of many unlicenced pins JJP will go belly up. Not hoping for this, but the reality of only making one game every 3 years or so. Every game better be a BIT hit I would think.

I hope so; considering the hobbit licence is already relatively stale (for location play) a GREAT unlicensed pin would be a nice everygreen earner.

Similar-ish to the band pins like Metallica or AC/DC, they can conceivably be earning and seem fresh to new players even a decade from now (barring advances in tech that make them obviously obsolete compared to a "new" pin 10 years from now...).

Above quote from TaylorVA:

I agree with this. I don't find posting PM's "cool" but if you go off base enough to start threatening me in them you better damn well expect them to be posted to give an unbiased picture of how nutty you are acting.

Unless I have promised specifically to keep them secret ahead of time, why would you expect otherwise?

Really, the only win here is stop treating other people like garbage. Then you don't have to get all pissy over what constitutes a big enough violation to dredge up PM's.

And if you would be embarassed to say it in public, here's a hint: Don't write it in a PM!

From many of the comments, it is not clear that John even figured the above out... sad as that sounds. Its all everybody else's fault you know!

This is too bad, meeting you would have been a highlight of the show. But thank you for the heads up!

And as for the rest... at least somebody got it working? I am looking forward to seeing it in ~2 days.

Doh, edited with ZombieYeti's clarifciation!

I was lucky enough to get a few very short balls on Magic Girl this weekend.

What surprised me in a nice way was the composure the two or three owners I saw come up to the game and talk with Bill.

Getting your first (and possibly last) turn on a game you paid 16K for and will probably never receive... would be a once in a lifetime experience I hope. If I was in their shoes I hope I could maintain at least half a smile looking at the what appears to be the dead end of the road.

IF Pintasia can pull it off, and get games manufactured somehow without money up front AND with John fighting off lawsuits... then great for them. I can't see many people throwing more money up front into this project. And that is not out of spite, the game is REALLY not finished as has been mentioned however many times up to this point.

The good news is if (I believe Ben Heck's?) statement that the largest BOM in pinball was sub 2K, Magic Girl at its worst should be ~$4.5-5K even in smallish quantities? (e.g. a batch of several hundred?). Assuming you have not gone crazy and done "custom everything".

At the end of the day yes magnets and ramps cost money, but it is not like there is a functioning waterfall made of gold and diamonds inside or anything.

So thank you to everybody who busted their butts bringing it to the show.

Here's hoping somone can scrape together a BOM that is not crazy, code can be funded to completion, the game is playtested to see if it works and is somewhat reliable, and maybe is even FUN, a manufacturer can be found... and THEN people will be able to enjoy it someday.

People seem either very forgiving, very forgetful, or very unknowledgable about this to not understand the extent of JPOP's failure. Any one of us if given 4 years and one million dollars could have come up with a flipping prototype, probably several.

The games might have been crap, they might have been great, but at least the prototypes would have been built.

And I wish I could remember the BoM thread... I believe it was in regards to WoZ being super expensive to build (or NOT) if the BOM was sub 2Kish. Given the manual labor needed to convert the pile of parts into a game, costs of running a factory etc. and of designing the game in the first place, this number sounds "about right" to me if you wanted to make any money selling pins approaching reasonable prices.

Now that I've thought about it Ben commenting on that does not make sense! Must have been someone else who seemed knowledgeable? vid1900? Who knows. Maybe my memory is going...

editing fail...

I was always a bit skeptical, but you wouldn't know it from my first post on the matter:

Eh, the man has a dream to make a LE run of 13 games; from the wording
I assume more are possible in the future?

I say good for him.

I am not sure if this is a virtual PIN or a physical pin, or some sort
of hybrid(?) based upon the "realistic ball physics wording" combined
with the kicking rubber parts combined with the LED displays...

This will be an interesting project to see when unveiled. It will
either be the most exclusive and expensive virtual pin ever, or it
will be one of the rarest and possibly very desirable games ever made.

Either way I do not understand the sour grapes.

If there was a reliable way to raffle one off online, I would be down
with that .

I have to hope anybody who had the cash ($70K ish?) to speculate on pinball games has to at least been dimly aware that one of the possible outcomes was "you get nothing". Even if he was doing it "for the good of pinball" rather than to flip for $$$, there is willing support, then there is blind trust.

One of the lessons from the book "smart trust" is don't extend blind trust in situations where if your trust is betrayed you are unwilling to accept the outcome.

And as far as John goes, he is sort of like Willy Wonka, without the surprise gift at the end:

Sad all round, I think the Wonka analogy might be too fitting. Secret shop tours, promising the world, leaving a bunch of devastated forever changed "fans" in his wake...

That is mind blowing if it is even half true. It is fairly easy to make money if you just get a bunch of people to send it to you, then deliver jack squat in return.

Mind blown yet again...

Yes and no. Considering Zidware's activities seemed to have amounted to noodling around not doing any/much of the hard work, $7500 a month of other people's money does seem lavish.

Buyers weren't funding John to have a 4 year sabbatical from the real world, or a really expensive daycare slot complete with arts and crafts for little Johnny P.

Not sure what else to say but that seems like a smart move and a class act not to try to say more. It is nice to know that this issue was "handled" though. Have that as a ? honestly was a conundrum.

You're not allowed to mess with me every other Friday, in between the time my paycheck is deposited and my mortgage payment comes out. Otherwise I am fair game

I think you're wrong and need to...

Seems appropriate, but maybe reserve it for balls that flail around for a suspiciously long period of time before draining without accomplishing anything

This seems accurate. People were stumbling in here wanting to drop cash on AIW even in the middle of this thread. Imagine if it were swept under the rug...

I think we have some idea, and yes it is sad.

I hope this is not an implosion per se, but definitely the end of a pinball era (the "shut up and take my money" era of loose pinball wallets.

Assuming games as interesting as KISS keep coming out, we will be fine.

Yup. He was wrong. I am sure he has figured that out by now, and being one of the last "dupes" defending John probably does not do wonders for ones ego...

Bravo; my biggest surprise is 100 people have not already posted sentiments to this effect on the blog (or wherever John can see) already!

I can understand a bit of what you are feeling, and congratulations for taking action. I am not trying to point fingers at the victims, I am just surprised at how relatively "civil" the direct discussion to John has been to date (not that that is a terrible thing, the lawsuits should be speaking loud and clear).

It is just unfortunate he still seems to think dissatisfied people are in the minority, it probably comes down to "you can't fix delusional".

The department of precrime gaciously accepts your offer

Honestly, I was making that point to try to get people to stop looking themselves or others as "owners" (or heaven forbid investors) after the ship had obviously crashed and burned. Not something I took great pleasure in having to type out, but I felt it was a point that should be made at least once in this billion post thread.

I don't think many people like being a victim. But if it helps a person wake up and realize the dream had burned to the ground, so be it.

Nothing about being superior. But I am witty, thank you for that

If you want to dredge up every post I have ever made in this thread i would be willing to stand trial in the pinside court regarding whether I have been a troll throughout this thread's history.

I can't think of a constructive response back to you without being deliberately hurtful. You seem to be in either the "anger" or "grief" stage in terms of dealing with this crapfest, and that I can understand.

I honestly don't think trying to rub your face in your past posts in this thread would be particularly beneficial, if you choose not to extend me the same courtesy that is on you.

Fair enough; I do not honestly remember antagonizing you or others in this thread to the point of warranting this.

I generally don't shy away from calling BS and foolishness where I see it, granted. IF I had thought I had devolved into "el Trollo", I would happily apologize. At this point it leads to a quote hunt or me delivering a non-sincere apology, neither of which is my style.

I am certainly not above apologizing when I screw up, or admitting I screwed up, I am old enough to have checked my ego and pride long ago. Every once in a while I get my turn at being the guy who has egg on his face, happens to everybody on a long enough timeline.

IF I recall correctly, you are taking legal action against JPOP? I genuinely wish you closure on this in whatever form you are seeking.

This seems like common sense; it sounds good coming from you though, especially in light of the other thread.

Exactly.

IF someone who is well versed in this thread / events over the last year sends $$$ in for JPOP's next game (rumored to be Cat Girl Bible Adventures Bowling with Borrowed Lebowski Inspired Elements) then that person might be stupid.

I don't think that person exists. Or at least the odds of that person existing seems pretty small in relation to the odds John is working on such a game, and will be actively trying to get pre-order money for it.

Yes, going back to the original Magic Girl announcement, I ASSumed that a generally functioning mechanical prototope was in existence prior to JPoP asking for money (based on the high asking price and stories of how he had previously done mechanical protos in between prior pinball jobs).

I was certainly wrong about that. Good luck to all of those who were financially involved to find the closure you are looking for.

I am not sure if it would have mattered, but reading your post above in hindsight would it have made sense to try to get law enforcement involved from the angle of "look, he is not making the games, but taking in new money".

Would an investigator be interested in playing the role of a new customer/victim, and gathering evidence that way and comparing it to John's communications with longtime "customers"?

Not trying to armchair quarterback, but considering all the crap cops will try to set up surveillance to make an arrest on, why not this when it only takes a phone call? The $$$'s involved seem worth it.

Was this explored, and if not I am mainly posting this in case it helps in a future similar case.

Does anybody know if Steven P was a real person, it would make more sense than anything else if he was an alternate John account.

I doubt this, it would just make more sense. Which makes the reality even more depressing.

I thought I remembered people legitimately vouching for Steven P in the past. That just makes everything a bit more sad.

And is the clearest indication just how much of a master manipulator John was. I guess he does have some "legitimate" skills after all. I bet his next "expert level" courses will be how to gain the confidence of others, milk them dry for years, and skate away consequence free.

I can see some big time speaking fees coming his way from various politicians and banks in the future.

I initially read this as "Yet I helped perpetuate this scam..." and was all .

Sorry I should have also kept your clarification you were not blaming Yeti, just saying the quality of his artwork helped keep people in line for years longer than would have otherwise happened.

Pinside confessional time; here are my big sort of eyesores that I have considered taking down/burning etc. for longer than I can remember:

Wall of Shame 1

Wall of Shame 2

Yeah, I should have taken those down. But apparently if you leave crap on your wall long enough there is a small glimmer of hope....

Oh my gawwd! Quit being SUCH a SHILL!

But do you enjoy them because they are rare, or do you enjoy them because you enjoy them. If they were part of a run of 100,000 or something ridiculous would you enjoy them less, or have less of a reason to own them?

I don't feel a ton of pity for the American Pinball investors. If they didn't do their due diligence with this many red flags waving in your face, what (positive) can be said?

IF John had two finished (coded, tested, all mechs in place) games in MG and Houdini, I'd like to think this had a chance. Still lots of difficulties, but a chance. If all they have are two arts and crafts mock up games this seems DOA.

MG has now been in development for what, 5 years and is still not done as far as anybody can tell? Horrible for everybody involved, but if AP jumped in bed with John at this late stage if anything they might deserve each other (horrible risk assessment meets horrible project management).

I just saw that on regular car reviews (and I am sure I saw it years ago on Unsolved Mysteries).

The story really reminded me of JPOP in too many ways...

True, there are a lot of parallels there too... the guy from "The Dale" story wound up hiding in a town called Dale... and Kevin apparently resides in Pinconning. You can't make that stuff up...

I saw "the bet" post from earlier today and though that looks like the easiest $25 bucks someone could make this year. Honestly, I would put up $25 just to hope I am wrong. What's the worst case scenario, I am out 25 bucks and people get their games? I can live with that.

A more likely scenario at this point is John ships some super lame ass zizzle reject (one flipper, made up of parts from kids pinball games on Amazon and stuff he found at the dump) just to say "here is the game, as promised".

That would at least make him updating the warranty page somewhat logical. But logic apparently never entered the picture here.

At this point JPoP is looking pretty lucky when compared to Kevin as he:
- produced fewer actual working PINs (hey, a few Predators are actually coded and exist!, plus the several one-offs they did)
AND
- pre-sold MORE different games... when you are pre-selling game #3 to and haven't even made a flipping game 1... that's pretty egregious

Relatively speaking, this looks worse (neither look good obviously), yet he seems to have come away relatively clean so far?

The game didn't work right AT ALL when it was previously shown, so why ASSUME it does now? Seems like the safe bet is to expect its a jacked up mess until proven otherwise?