Maybe this has been brought up before but...

...as someone from the outside looking in, how would one even know what products are being offered other than seeing a few names of games that don't exist floating around?

It seems like if someone wants to sell something, they would provide some information about the product.

Guess I just don't know what's going on here.

It also seems like we're talking something that you have to pay for before you see it. (Have no idea. Threads like this are confusing). Reading this thread, it reads as if you have to deposit some money and sign an NDA before you get to see what is being offered.

Is there an official place to see public information about these games? Otherwise any posts on the subject are just confusing. At the same time, it seems like if someone wants to sell something they would tell the public about that something.

Putting big money down pre-ordering anyone's initial game offering is a risk that should only be taken with funds you can afford to lose. The risk with IPB for BBB took almost three years but worked out okay. The risk with JJP for WOZ is working out (though some still don't have their WOZLE yet). MMrLE from PPS doesn't seem to be too big a risk (and only required a $1K deposit). On the other hand, those that jumped in on that Australian MM remake didn't fare too well...

If the risk pays off with Jpop then the reward will be having one of the few copies of a very rare and highly sought after pinball game. Owning Magic Girl may be like having one of the nine Capcom Kingpins.

I am confident that we are talking past each other.

Please understand my point, which is the fact that Zidware being LLC has zero to do with anyone considering a lawsuit to recover their deposit having second thoughts because of that fact.

Nobody is talking about insolvency! We are talking about a simple suit to get a deposit back. From the company it was paid to. That's Zidware, which is a LLC.

You are acting as though nobody should file suit simply because it's an LLC. That makes no sense at all. A few people filing suit to get their deposit back isn't going to cause Zidware to be insolvent. If it does, the problems are bigger than we thought. But even then, the fact that it's an LLC has nothing to do with it.

You seem to be implying that if JPop's personal assets were available, only then would a suit make sense? As though JPop is a rich guy or something?

^ Well said.

Again, though, I would say that a few guys asking for a refund of their deposit shouldn't put Zidware into insolvency. If it did, that means the pins were probably never going to be finished anyway.

Obviously if there was a "run on the bank" where everyone started demanding their deposits back, there would be an issue of insolvency.

I agree. We are talking past each other. Also, I again stress this is purely theoretical. That said, i will flesh out my point a bit further as I do not believe either of us disagree with the other's position. I am making assumptions here and have not seen JPop documents regarding the deposit - I am not giving anyone legal advice.

My assumption is Zidware was not capitalized with much, if any, outside capital besides start up costs (incorporation fees, attorneys fees, cpa fees perhaps, a couple other minor matters). My assumption is the deposits were actual capital used in the development of the game (the word deposit can be misleading). My assumption is to the extent there was capital put into the company it was a type of debt that was collateralized with the assets. My assumption is employee fees over the past few years have consumed much of the capital. My assumption is outside fees (possibly attorneys protecting IP and what not) have consumed more capital.

All of the above in mind, I then move to the thought that it is pertinent that JPop is not personally on the hook. If JPop is not on the hook personally he may just walk away and not finish anything if he feels any heat or pressure or is just tired of dealing with things. There may be no meaningful assets to even make it worth obtaining a judgment or collecting a judgment. Also, the person who brings the action ends up carrying the water for others, something that is usually not appealing.

If (and that is a big if, I am expressly not saying there is any problem at all with JPop) there is a problem and deposits are not voluntarily refunded it may not be worth people hiring an attorney (even on a contingent basis, if they could find one willing to take the case) to recover whatever may be around (if anything).

Again, this is purely theoretical. I will bring future discussion on this subject only to PM.

The people who put down a deposit/paid for game in full have to sign an NDA. That isn't really a great marketing strategy to get additional sales..

I have been in on RAZA CT#11 from the first week.

About six months ago I spoke with John about getting on the magic girl waiting list. He told me no problem, and guaranteed me a magic girl, but refused my offer to take any deposit money.

I viewed that is a very good sign because if he were only out to take deposit money, and never deliver a game he would have taken the money on the spot.

I am super impressed with what I have seen on both pins. Hope he is able to execute his announced reveals on time.

Ok, I'm kind of confused, are people paid in full for these game or do you just have a deposit of like $1-$2k? $17k for MG seems RIDICULOUS especially if you're required to pay this far in advance... As for those with some skin in this, have you actually shelled out $17k for a game you've been waiting months for? Or are you $1-$2k in and waiting for the final product before paying in full? Jpop has done some fine things during his career but he's still just a man making pinball machines... What's the deal?

I was in on TBL but cancelled because i'm sick of pre-ordering and want to stop the madness. I will buy one on release. Also got out of Predator last year (thank god).

Besides RAZA, which I'm apparently stuck with since there are no refunds and no takers (not selling for $1k ), I've got a Full Throttle coming but at least that was only $1k deposit and was put in at the end of development, not the start, and I should have it soon.

I'll probably do that with Stern again, knowing I'll have my game 4 weeks later, and if Heighway delivers, do it again for their titles on release, but no more throwing money in based on a fantasy.

I'm still trying to figure out why Skit-B needed more than half from every owner to get the ball rolling and that was more than 6 months ago. What the heck, AMH didn't need half from every owner and they are actually making the games.

At least I think MMR is just a small deposit, but in all honesty they should refund anyone who asks based on their missed timeline. Imo

This will be the interesting point in the future. Right now, john has half of the money for the Raza machines. Given the delays and cost increases that have resulted from the delays, at some point he will either need to pre-sell a fourth or fifth machine or he will need the other $500,000 from the Raza buyers. I can't imagine that many raza buyers are willing to sink in the other $5,000 at this point. Based on posts from two of his vendors, he currently can not pay his bills so I doubt he can afford to pay the bom to produce each machine. Even if he got outside funding, he would have to clear up his debts to and relationships with his vendors.

I already consider my first $5,000 basically lost and I am not going to give him any more. He will either just not produce my machine or he will need to find another buyer. His silence in the face of the questions being posed has eroded my confidence and the confidence of other potential buyers. His bad business practices have cost him many of the 130 loyal raza customers and have likely scared off many others who were considering getting in on a machine in the future.

Will he eventually be stuck with a RAZA that only sells 25 units because no one will send him the rest of the money? He would serve himself well to go above and beyond to provide service to the people who put him into business in the first place. Instead, he has created a loss of confidence that becomes like a bank run. No one is going to deposit more money with him and he will eventually be stuck without some outside financing.

The people I feel bad for are the guys making wooly. They have acted responsibly by setting the price high enough that they can afford to make the machine. They have partnered with spooky which actually produces working machines. They also said they will not produce unless the market will support them selling 100 machines. Unfortunately, their responsible approach has likely stalled given the recent problems with the other boutique pinball companies.

As far as I know, the refund policy never changed.

I don't remember the exact amount of time/dates, but the original deposit (made years ago) was fully refundable up to a certain date. After that date elapsed, refunds would no longer be available until that spot was sold. As Frolic said, originally there was a list of people waiting to get in, so even after that date, refunds were still not much of an issue.

As more time has elapsed, with little signs of this pin shipping any time soon (especially with MG nowhere to be found), combined with all the other new offerings coming out (including TBL etc), fewer people are on the wait list (if any) and people find themselves having to sell their spot in line themselves, usually without success.

If JPop was able to come through with an amazing "TBL effect rug reveal" with a fully working protype of MG, you'd probably have more people willing to take a chance on RAZA and buy a few of the spots from people who want refunds.

At some point, though, this is going to come to a head, and if more meaningful information isn't forthcoming in terms of when RAZA will be shipping, you will have more people getting to the point of *demanding* a refund (vs. "requesting" a refund) and that's where things could really start to go bad.

Frankly I think a lot is riding on MG and it's big "reveal" (some photos sent only to MG owners does not constitute a "TBL effect" reveal).

Got to admit a Pussycats is appealing. I like both themes, should be a slam dunk. Unfortunately does not look feasible with all the other delayed projects. Won't be sending in a deposit though...prepay model has fooled me three times, so must draw the line.

It was a mistake for Cointaker to get involved in this to begin with. I don't know how much money they were going to make on each CT version, but I doubt it was worth the risk. I assume that CT simply forwarded the deposit money that they received to Zidware? If so, it is highly unlikely that CT will issue any refund until they get the money back from Zidware.

I would think that the people who ordered through Cointaker are in a slightly better position than those who ordered direct from Zidware, as they are a more proven company that would have liability for the refund on top of Zidware.

Those who bought from Cointaker: who did you make the check payable to? Cointaker or Zidware?

I wonder what kind of company Zidware is? LLC?

First off, I am on the buyers' side here in the grand scheme of things. But as far as what buyers are entitled to, I think a couple of you are talking and thinking as though you are investors in the company. You aren't, you don't have company stock so you don't have the "right" to information about product development. If JPop received money from you for RAZA, you as a customer simply have nothing to do with MG.

Whatever information is being sent out would fall under customer service, which is obviously very bad in this case. Same with timelines and whatnot.

As a pre-orderer in pinball, as in anything else, you are just paying early for a game so you get "dibs" when it's made. If you pre-ordered a new assassin's creed video game from ubisoft, do you think they would appreciate getting letters and demands from you on how their new game "Santa's Quest: Chimneys of Fire" or whatever game they're working on is doing?

Pinsiders are using their pre-orders as leverage to try and get "inside" John's business. And I fully understand that, I would be trying to get in there too after this long and that much money. I'm just saying John will not let you, and he obviously doesn't think your preorder entitles you to it.

The only real "right" I see is the right to your deposit money back. If you signed an agreement to waive that right, then you don't really have any rights left unless you can show that he has no intention of delivering the game. Then he would be guilty of fraud.

Once you sign away your right to a refund, at that point you are pretty much depending on John to be a decent human being and a responsible businessman who respects and values his customers.

Me too. At this point it almost feels like he's waiting for someone to break it. I bet if you break the NDA he'll try to kick you out and keep the deposit.

With all the warnings on site of NOT TO BE DISTRIBUTED, CONFIDENTIAL, DO NOT RELINK, DIGITAL WATERMARKS for tracing leaked images etc etc etc.... I know it would be a monumental task to individually watermark the images with some kind of user identifiable info, but at this point I'm guessing he's just paranoid enough to actually do it. At which point he'd keep the $ and no longer have to listen to us whine on the blog, so basically a win-win for him and everything to lose for us.

I wish Aurich was in on this project, only so he'd light up the blog. Too many of the owners are still silent.

Phil could refund deposit $$

Yeah, I know. I had seen an earlier post from you saying you put 1895 as your deposit.

The brochure didn't mention the total price, but asks for a $3895 deposit. So I asked him directly and he said it's broken into 4 payments. So unless there's some wacky payment scheme, I assume that means 4 payments of $3895 (ish). Might be time for you to give him a call and please correct me if he says otherwise. I'm going off assumptions here.

Ditto... >=|

Minus having sent a deposit, but we did get an info pack with the seal thingy from him. I'm still not sure I'd sell two great games for it, but if his crap ever coalesces from dookie into diamonds, I might want to get in on AIW..

See, I have a similar page with my brochure but the price has been removed.

Also yours is called Original 10/6 "Mad Hatter Model" Velvet edition

Mine is referred to as Mad Hatter Edition 1/133 in the top left corner. On another page it is referred to as "The Mad Hatter 10/6 edition"

I don't know if you guys got in early enough that there are 2 seperate editions and you got a price break.

But I can directly quote him from an e-mail saying "We do not make an LE, but make just 1 model and load it up as best I can with art, features, ideas, mods, etc. So no "bait and switch" or upsell." So like I say, one of you with a deposit down should probably get it straight from the horse's mouth how much these machines are going to cost you.

I think I read somewhere that it is 5 magna flippers on MG. Also, my deposit on AIW was $1895 and he just asked for an additional $2000 which is why he is asking all new deposits to be $3895 (guessing). The price on my original flyer is the $9865 as well.

I emailed Jpop through the zidware website expressing interest as a potential customer wanting to make a deposit. It took him approx. 6 weeks to finally get back to me with an email saying nothing more than "Give me your full name, mailing address, phone # and ill get in touch with you"

This was months ago and came across a bit stand offish and flaky to me so i decided not to get involved...

Just thought i would share that for what its worth

Sorry you guys are in the house of pain with this guy, fingers crossed for the best!

I'm willing to pay a fee to get help with this. PM me. Thanks! I will also sell my spot for 5500. I have 6250 on deposit willing to take a 750 hit

I called and spoke with him weeks ago about a refund. He said no problem I will send a letter. Well since than I have called and emailed several times with no response. Well finally...
I received a refund letter in the mail the other day. It basically says that he has received a request either by phone or email for a refund. It further says that when he received money from a new owner he will than refund the deposit money. He than asks you to sign the letter and send back all initially packet of information and I guess that will start the process. In the original contract it states that if a new owner if not found a refund less 25% will be given after X date. The issue is he is sticking to his no refund date but that's also the date it was suppose to be basically complete. Omg I'm getting confused just trying to explain this...

Remember when duke nukem forever was released 15 years after announcement? It changed hands, people got sued, the game engine changed like 3-4 times.

Anyone that put down a deposit for pre-order at babbages etc. probably lost it because they went out of business, then got sold to barnes & noble, then split back off as gamestop.

And then big excitement drummed up when they showed a very early PLAYABLE beta game because a small team decided to buy the rights and access to all the files so they could put the nail in the coffin. Then it came out, and it ended up being extremely linear (no exploring), none of the original plotline from the original trailer, no jetpack, and the load times were horrible (45 seconds per level).

This is what I just posted I'm beyond baffled at this

John I want my damn deposit back now! The letter you sent regarding refund is complete bullshit! Your timeline is way off so give me my monies back and find someone on your own to take my spot. Your in breah of contract. Oh that’s right no one wants my spot not even at a $750 discount as I offered on pinside because you have yet to produce one game when your working on 4!! RAZA is one year late and your talking about artwork?? Your contract says you will communicate any delays in a timely manner so what is the complete status of RAZA an when will it come out so I at least will have something to sell because your obviously not giving my $$$ back!! If I would ever get your pin I would sell it in spite of how nonprofessional and disrespectful you are to your loyal customers and everyone that believed in you including vendors and Chris at Cointakers wow I feel bad for him he was your biggest advocate and supporter and your completely shit on him by not paying bills, avoiding questions and advice because you are to much of a ego maniac to humble yourself and comes to terms with where things stand, how to come through on promises to us, How to be a professional businessman and give back to those who are putting food on your table, funding this project and putting dog food in pebbles bowl. I lost my new home deal and Christmas to my family in there new home because you have my money and I couldn’t come up with the 5% down deposit money. Goodluck in 2015 buddy u lost all respect from me.

And this is what the owners will have to think about and decide what they believe in terms of whether the money is gone or not, and whether RAZA can ever be made.

If the owners decide that the money is probably gone and/or that RAZA can not be produced, it would make no sense to be satisfied with a written timeline from JPop.

My concern is that if the money is in fact almost gone, JPop has incentive to come up with a written timeline that he swears that he can and will comply with, which may very well only serve to further delay the inevitable, and eat up even more of the deposit money with it. Meaning that when a lawsuit is filed after he once again fails to comply with a timeline, there will be even less money available in whatever "pot" is left.

I'm sure that the owners will all be discussing these issues in private, hopefully with Doug (Ice).

LOL, I didn't say I was going to pay for it up front. I might put up a deposit, maybe. I am most likely going to buy the PL pin from Jack but AIW is my fantasy theme and I would wait on it if I could see some proof that it will exist in the future. That is why I want to talk to the man. I cant get a email reply nor has he ever answered any of the numbers I can find or have been given.

I have read every one of these posts and again that is why I want to actually speak to the man.

Regarding Nemo: somewhat inaccurate, let me explain:

The initial limit was fixed at 30. Antonio kept "preorders" for Nemo (with no money required!) open for a year. Never reached 30. Around 20 I think.

At one time he had to order parts and asked people who were in for a deposit. 14 stayed in. So he placed orders to manufacture that number (hopefully with some spare parts if necessary).

Now the machine can be consired as "sold out" because he would not make more.
Once the 14 are produced, if people like the game, he would still be allowed to make 16 other games and keep his word. I doubt he wants to make them but if the feedback is good, try petition him to make these extra games... but let him finish the 14 first!

Note that there is still a waiting list according to http://www.quetzalpinball.com/menu/order
I know that at least a few of the 14 have not paid in full - so there is still a possibility that a few would drop out.

By the way, this limit of a few dozen is probably the upper figure you can assemble without a factory. So announcing a low run makes sense. He is building these pins in his home. Mine is expected hopefully soon !

Antonio next game will involve partnership with a game manufacturer. A higher run becomes realistic.
In any case, as you can guess with Nemo priced at €4,400 (without sales tax) Antonio is not making a living out of it. He told me he lost $$, without including any salary for himself and the workers (his wife!). He (they) keeps his regular job and builds games when he finds the time.

The ultimate boutique pin!

For better or worse, like a marriage, I knew what I signed for 32 months ago, and I am still in!

_{Post edited by jlm33: grammar/clarity}

So how do those of us that gave him money, get it back?

I feel we are all going to be out our deposit.

If there are any kool aid drinkers left, I'll sell my $6500.00 spot for $5250.00 cash right now. Or I'll trade it for a game around the $5000-$5500 price range. That's almost a 20% discount for one lucky potential buyer.

Any takers ?

How was Wooly pre-order a disaster or headache? Did not work out, everyone got his deposit back within a few days... Scott handled things as promised.
Failure maybe (but the story may not be over); Disaster or headache : no.

MMr is probably a headache but does not seem a disaster...

Great work ICE, Did you ask him if he had a fully working prototype? And we want to see a video of it ASAP.
And when is he expecting a production date? Or who might do the production?

When is the expected timeframe for this reveal?

How many people owe a remaining deposit? Most people have paid in full I thought.
Again, it's great you contacted him ICE, and will have weekly communication.

So I pulled off the seal on my Queens's Card. Unfortunately, the ink was coming of the the entire card and I couldn't decipher what "secret code" was printed under the seal. That'll keep it a secret If anyone ever figures out the purpose for these cards please let me know.

Yeah, Jpop was nice and timely when I corresponded with him a year or so ago. The fact that the guy was taking time to talk to me every time I contacted Zidware seemed odd. So an "intervention" is/was probably needed. Not sure why so many of you folks in on the games are taking John's "acknowledgement" of the problems as anything other than a stall tactic. I'm not saying that in a mean way.

Disclaimer: nothing but 100% respect for John, even with all that has transpired. I love Jpop games. Not in on a pre-order at this time.

Correct. I'm only representing John in IP matters (and no, he has never spent or 'wasted' a lot of time or money dealing with patents). But I do want to see these games get finished and be great, so I have been trying to help that process along. John is seeing how important that is--opening up the MG and RAZA blogs is a HUGE step for him. And new info should be coming soon.

Maybe I'm sticking my neck out a bit, but I am just trying to get things moving in a positive direction, and countering much misinformation that is presented here. As for refunds, there IS a waitlist and for the most recent request he received, he processed it in a reasonable time, sending paperwork, then sending papers to the waitlister so he could get the new deposit and refund the original buyer. And then the buyer decided he didn't want to cancel. (Someone here could verify this, but it's ok if you don't! )

I can't make up anybody's mind for them, but I would at least suggest waiting a short while to see where things are and how cool they are. John seems to be shifting gears and is back to addressing the various complaints. And the games will be THAT good imo. Just my perspective, having seen the workshop very recently and having asked lots of questions. I know visiting JPOP is not feasible for all customers--would be a lot simpler if it were!

Get money back? haha. I had to bail after my first payment due to Hurricane Sandy and John never sent me my refundable deposit back. I have called and emailed many times. As far as im concerned I’m still on the project bc he has my deposit. Everyone getting their money back? That’s a good one.

Haven't tuned in for a bit..
but is now when we sing along to the Doors "The End"..
apologies ahead of time to owners who can't get their money back.. I was very close to being there.. several emails w/ Jpop... opportunity to get in on a RAZA owner that bailed... make a 1/2 deposit on AIW... waiting list for MG...
I'm disgusted with JPOP!

Correct. After the initial deposit, he moved away from Paypal.

That quote is both hilarious and insulting! When you deliver more than a thousand (approved and signed off on by John) PCB assemblies and you don't get paid for them, we're not talking about "not on board ... understandably unhappy".

I'm in manufacturing. I have lived and breathed it for 20+ years. I know how a typical bidding process works and usually, it's just another day at the office, win or lose.

The fact of the matter is, every project that I worked on and delivered to Zidware has FULL documentation. That is: Zidware requests a part, GLM quotes it, Zidware creates a PO, Zidware sends deposit check, GLM does the design work and sends it to Zidware for approval, Zidware approves the design, GLM produces the part, GLM delivers the part, GLM sends an invoice, Zidware pays invoice.

If the case were: Zidware requests a part, GLM quotes it, Zidware says "No thanks, someone was cheaper.", then I'd have no issues to gripe about. I'd have been more than happy to let someone else take it on (and be in this position). But that isn't how it went down.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think anyone who has money with JPop was able to pay him by credit card or Paypal. We are talking personal checks. At least that's how I paid when I was in, after my initial deposit that was paid by PayPal was refunded due to Zidware not setting up the PayPal account properly.

I made that poll 2 months ago, 75% said they'd rather take their money than stay in the project. (57 people voted, however it's not scientific because people that don't actually have the pins on order could have also voted which would screw up the data).

I wonder if John knows this or cares. The only way for John to know (unless he reads this thread) is for all dissatisfied owner to call him up and say 'give me my refund or make progress to shipping a game in the next 6-10 months'. I mean shipping games not having a prototype. If John is not in a position to begin shipping games in the next 6-10 months (IMO) he should refund all money (maybe keep $1000 deposit) and re-collect money when he is close to shipping.

I think the frustration level has not gone down any in the past 2 months.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/if-you-are-in-on-mg-or-raza

Yes, and if Predator actually had a license, Kevin would be building pins on his mom's kitchen table as we speak.

There is no threat of some outside force, whether that is a movie studio or some Anonymous Group that can kill this. A pretty key difference.

My money is long gone, so all I can do is try and see this through, but I won't be spending one more additional dollar to see it happen. So no money paid to a lawyer to send a letter, no legal action, and no more deposit money sent.

The "hail mary" is John's personal value of his pinball reputation and him gutting through this to the end. Because if he fails and we all lose our money he'll be persona non grata in pinball and I don't think he'd ever live that down.

"Doesn't get along with others"

Nailed it! As I got out in the 1st few months after a 5min phone call with J pop... He was rude and cocky on the phone to me a customer supporting his project. After over a month went by and I couldn't even get a direct response on a confirmation of my deposit I was out. It took over 3 months for me to get my deposit back after requesting it and this was early on.

Do they answer their phone?

People sometimes compare the jpop delays with WOZ, but Jack was always out there and available, taking phone calls, Jen was in the office taking phone calls, they were showing their prototype. They had a different answer for production start every day, but at least they answered. As far as I know anyone with a deposit was also able to get out of it.

Not taking calls, not responding to texts, not returning emails, not treating customers as valued, not managing a crisis.... not going to survive.

Just to go back a while in this thread, someone said Ferrari may have a 2-3 year wait list for it's cars. But that's a whole different story. Ferrari is making cars every day, they are shipping cars and have been for 68 years.

The point, Ferrari likes there to be a wait list (like a good restaurant, they don't want you to be able to get a reservation at all times), it adds to the mystique.

People that pre-order a Ferrari that is 2-3 years out do not pay in advance. They probably put a deposit (I have no idea let's say $20K) which would represent a .05% deposit which would work out to $800 deposit for a $16K item.

How was the deposit money taken? Was it personally received by Jpop, or taken by a corporation hiding behind a LLC?

With that amount of money taken, and no significant assets....the chance of jpop throwing hands in the air a declaring bankruptcy is a real issue.

The fact that this is major cash to most people, heck I do very well but it's still major cash, weeks or more for most people by hard work to actuall earn the deposit money, entrust it to John. It may sound foolish now after all this time, but back 3 years ago most people trusted John and now it's down to a Hail Mary pass to have a chance to save these games or get a refund even.

BTW...I never, never, never have been paid in full for a project before it was completed....customer always holds minimum of 10-20% until I'm done! and customer happy....just how normal bus works...

That's why alien was a reasonable approach for me. Minimal deposit, not a penny more until my machine is being built ( per Andrews terms)....seems reasonable to show commitment to a machine I want....my deposit certainly didn't buy his C&C machine, factory, Staff, materials, engineering, art, etc.

Just my way to show my seriousness/ commitment, and he can gauge production on #s as such...a 180 from what has been displayed in "Boutique" land ( starting to hate that term)....mark

I was never in on Predator ( though title was very appealing), and have never preordered a Pin before Alien. I did do some homework on Heighway before committing, and this is very much an oranges and apples scenario. Want an LE bad ( at least believe I do) and simply secured my spot with a reasonable, refundable deposit, showing my interest ( my take). I've never viewed this position as one to "help" Heighway fund the project......certainly seems he's building these regardless if I'm in or out....I just want one...plain and simple.

I have hired a dozen lawyers over the years to help with simple matters. One thing I've noticed is that they expect to be paid for their services, usually with a good sized amount up front and they'll let you know when to deposit more as you proceed. If you don't pay, you still have the original problem to address but added to the load is a disgruntled attorney with all your personal info and with the full weight of the law behind them.

Given John's track record of not paying vendors, his refusal to refund money as promised and the steady flow of complaints, I don't believe he has the funds to hire an attorney. Adding to the fire - John's refusal to face facts or to provide an honest assessment to buyers, legal action sounds like the only recourse to recovering part of your funds back.

The priority ranking of claims in bankruptcy might surprise you.

Unless those unpaid programmers and artists can establish a secured claim (e.g., mechanics lien for labor and materials, or judgment lien following a successful lawsuit), or they can establish a priority unsecured claim as W-2 employees owed back wages & benefits, then their claims would likely be classified as general unsecured claims, along with the claims of other 3rd-party trade vendors.

Section 507(a)(7) of the Bankruptcy Code actually gives a 7th priority to "allowed unsecured claims of individuals, to the extent of $̶1̶,̶8̶0̶0̶ $2,775 for each such individual, arising from the deposit, before the commencement of the case, of money in connection with the purchase, lease, or rental of property, or the purchase of services, for the personal, family, or household use of such individuals, that were not delivered or provided." [11 U.S.C. §507(a)(7)]

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2011-title11/html/USCODE-2011-title11-chap5-subchapI-sec507.htm

The initial $1,800 dollar amount in the original Bankruptcy Code has been increased numerous times over the years to compensate for inflation, and it was subsequently increased to $2,775 in 2013.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2013-02-21/html/2013-03998.htm

Pre-order customers who paid deposits would likely have their claims "bifurcated" (divided in two) into: (1) a priority unsecured claim of up to $2,775, and (2) a residual claim for the remainder, which would likely be classified as general unsecured. So the priority unsecured claim would likely be paid after all secured claims and some higher priority unsecured claims like administrative claims of lawyers/professionals in the case (Priority 2), and some wage & benefits claims of employees (Priorities 4 & 5), but before lower priority unsecured claims like taxes owed to governing bodies (Priority 8), and before general unsecured claims (e.g., trade vendors).

For a pre-order customer, this might be better than expected under the circumstances, or for a trade vendor, it might be worse than expected.

Disclaimer: I am not an attorney. The above is just my personal opinion and should not be construed as legal advice. Always speak with an attorney for legal advice.

Not the worst idea. Seeing how incomplete Magic Girl is, RAZA would be a complete nightmare, and Alice.... well..... there's some cardboard sitting in the shop.

I personally would move my raza deposit to a MG if offered, just to get off this shit train.

Has there ever been an aluminum ramp before? Seems like it would wear and deposit dirt all over the playfield? That is why stainless steel is used, because it is so hard.

As a business, pre-order money is not to be used as you please. It is a contract with your buyer to supply a product "as advertised" in a reasonable period of time. Presumably that reasonable period is governed by the production schedule put forth at the time of the order plus about 6 months to a year usually, depending on whoever is arbitrating the case. This happens in condominiums etc. where if the product is not to the advertised standard or not delivered within a reasonable time of the production schedule, the developer must return the "deposit" money and allow you to walk away from your contract.

A preorder is not a "true" investment as you describe, because it does not involve a share of the company. People were not "betting" on John. But as a preorder, it is protected by procurement and property laws designed to protect people from fraud and theft by unscrupulous companies.

That's not how it works, if you change the product you are selling you get them to sign an acknowledgement of the changes, or at least e-mail consent so you have documentation.

No, it doesn't have to relate to Predator at all to still be considered fraud. But you can compare it to Predator in that this is another case of Pinheads vs. "fraudulent manufacturer X." The situation is unique but Predator taught the community the warning signs and what needs to be done to protect the defrauded customers.

Making plans that change is fine. However the production schedule was never updated, and assurances of a delivery schedule keep getting made based on "agreements" that the vendors claim had no basis in fact whatsoever. That is fraud, because by not realistically updating the production schedule and instead continually claiming delivery is imminent, it denies the legal right of the customer to demand their deposit money back based on non-delivery.

The only big show I went to last year was Southern Fried Gaming Expo and I saw neither AMH or Wooly. Seeing/Flipping one might of made me a buyer. Obviously for AMH it doesnt matter since its sold out but Wooly might of made their deposit goal if they were at SFGE.

BINGO! Every $1000 spent has to be accounted for. We are all talking now about what John, Skit B is doing with deposit money.

So would you want them spending your deposit money on going to shows all the time, taking off work, adding cost, eating out, paying themselves. OR do you want them spending the money making the game.

We are mad one guy spent money while saying someone else should of spent more. How did it work for John showing up at a show? Would you rather have a game right now or seeing a half made game at a show.

There is little to no money to spend. When your doing it right and starting up every dollar has to be spent you take what little profit there is in the end.

We are going to have to learn to trust some. Apparently we already trust people who show pictures unfinished with 8-$10,000. How much more trust is it to without playing. Know a game others have seen, played, seen flipping, working is AWESOME! The later seems a easier justification in my mind.
Also probably the safer bet one side has shown ability to finish a product.

While I agree John f-ed up big time and lost people's hard earned money, and I appreciate how hard it is to earn a living let alone make sufficient money for these pins, and that money could have been saved, invested, used to buy a different pin, used for a vacation with the family, used to pay bills or college tuitions etc,, a thousand different things.

I'm not defending John but I do feel sorry for him and his family, looking at his FB page it appears he may have children himself. So I do hope it does not lead to great harm like jail like some have suggested.

I think he was out of his element, not trying to screw people and not trying to ruin his legacy. It was unfortunate for himself as well, it's almost likely he has some type of borderline personality. Like people that hoard or shopaholic. Not saying he's one of those but some type of personality disorder would not surprise me. Not excusing him, but there are some mitigating circumstances for sure. I bet if we had payed a small deposit and then waited and saw the final product if/when it was finished this would have gone more easily for all.

Sad result as far as I can tell, I'm still hoping he might pull a rabbit out of the magic hat. It's not over yet, but just looks bleak.

I agree with you for the most part & Yes I don't think he set out to deceive in the beginning , but the dude was glad to take an AIW deposit from me 2 weeks before Expo 2014 right before he showed up with the empty cabinets .... cant help but feel like he saw me as a mark & pounced on it .. who knows maybe that payment help pay the rent for a month or two but I doubt any of it was spent on the game I bought in on

I think they are hoping that people don't. Right now they want everyone to convert their deposit to Magic Girl.

Hmm, another Chicago builder... did have a new company and new game at Midwest gaming classic, right?
There may be people willing to trust the licensee, buy your position, and you are out, other buyers are added. You get out with $, new buyers get the builds, and games get made. Sign the agreement, but insist somebody buy your spot. Under this arrangement, I could see the licensee buying your spot, giving you your deposit, and reselling your spot. If posts start saying I got my money back, I'm out bc someone took over my order, then others may see this project will get done, and new folks might come in.
I don't think its a bad deal for current order holders, and also see bankruptcy without you all signing this agreement as being a true statement, and you seeing zero dollars.

My probability of preorders losing zero dollars is down from 99% to 25%. Sign the agreement, there is nothing to gain by not signing, a likely gain to your current $0 value if you do the agreement. Is not pressure, it's finally a decent plan that makes sense and is viable . If these aren't signed I think it's 100% chance you lose all deposits and would spend more money on a lawyers trying to find $0.

This bugs the crap out of me! So if I sign i may end up getting 1 for 2 "zidware credits" (1/2 value) towards the RAZA that I originally ordered? They need to rewrite that letter to specify if I wait for the game I originally ordered that I will get it for the original price and I won't have my deposit converted to a 1 for 2 scenario!

Oh my lord that letter...I feel so terrible for any of you that put money down on this game, ESPECIALLY RAZA or AIW. The 1/2 value "credits" thing is just insane.

I wonder how the "no refunds" thing really pans out. Was that something you had to agree to when you put the deposit down? The whole "sign this agreement so you can't take legal action against me" is also crazy.

I thought this bit was interesting (hat tip Nate!) in the actual order letter, not the first letter:

"Yes, I would like to convert my order(s) for RAZA and/or AIW to a Magic GirlTM–Classic, at a price range of (USD $9,995 to $11,995). My deposit(s) to Zidware will be converted 1:2 into a Magic GirlTM–Classic."

Note the 1:2 part. Looks like they were hoping to incentivize RAZA and AIW buyers into buying the "cheaper" MG by doubling their money.

Look, I get that people are mad, and this is a weird deal. Lot of unknowns. And obviously the "no sue" stuff isn't gonna make people feel good.

I just wonder, taking emotion out of this for a moment (easy for me to say) – what's the end game?

Because let's say everyone says FU to this deal (it's feeling that way now), then what? John is broke. It's not a rumor, he has no money. What exactly are people hoping to do? Pierce the veil and try and get him and his wife to sell their house and assets or something? It just feels like the possibility of actually getting your money back is really low.

Throwing more money at this probably isn't an awesome idea either, granted, but isn't this kind of what people wanted? Someone to step in, be the big business man, and shove John aside, and take over?

Maybe I read this wrong but I thought he was offering RAZA buyers 1/2 value on their deposit twards Magic Girl Classic?

Hoooolllly shhiiiitt........Jpop, man....you are a vomit's vomit.

While this new deal just seems like a butt-covering scam....let me try to wrap my head around it.

Basically, RAZA and AIW are done. NO ONE will want to wait 4 more years and no one wants HALF-CREDIT toward MG "standard". They're hoping EVERY person with a deposit on these projects will convert to MG"LE". This deal is to strong-arm people into committing to the 199 MG's....money's gone, no refunds, so - no choice, hop on this great new deal!

It's a doozy...maybe Zombieyeti's instincts are right this time and these new guys are legit - however, how on earth could they present this deal and be SECRETIVE!?!? Secrets are what boned this project from the beginning. Whoever this new licensee is - they need to step forward, introduce themselves, layout their credentials and SPECIFICS as to how this thing is going to get finished. I don't believe anyone can stomach more faith at this point.

Aye-yai-yai! ...I don't envy you dudes with money in on this. If this new shit is legit, switching to MG might be the only way you'll get something for your money....but what a kick in the nuts having to trust some other mystery-man *AND* pay more *AND* wait more. Ugh....clusterfuck city.

My condolences and I hope this somehow works out.....but Jpop - you're over. He's so self unaware though, he'll probably still show up at pinball shows thinking people will be happy to see him.

As a nerd, this is actually backwards..

1:2 means that $6,500 deposit = $13,000 credits.
1/2 = 6500 / 13000

2/1 would mean 6500 / 3250.

That line reads '..will be converted one to two..'.

So technically, any lawyer could find a big hole in that 'agreement' letter. (Assuming any of the rest of it is enforceable..)

--Me.

I especially love that, at the end of your 'options' form, where you have to decide where your deposit money goes, you still have to show proof that you sent him money.

How about starting with a personalized statement of account for each buyer? He's never been able to do this and I know several requests for a 'receipt' of any sort have gone unanswered by John.

That simply tells me that there was zero bookeeping and he has no idea how much of our money he has and who has paid what. He was just happy to let it roll in. If he wasn't planning to screw people from the outset, he sure makes it look like he was. If I'm taking thousands of dollars of anyone's money, I am keeping a pretty good paper trail.

IMHO:

THERE IS NO INVESTOR - Just like JJP's "secret investor who loves pinball" and fake press release to joyfully announce his second coming, does anyone really believe that there is an investor?

Investors invest money to make money.

No investor that I've ever spoke to invested money just for the love of the product - I mean, it sounds romantic and all, but so did Pretty Woman (and we know how many billionaires try to marry their hookers in real life).

Investors bring money to invest. This "investor" seems like they are just going to be taking your money.

I predict that the "investor" is just an actor fronting another shell company for Poopaduke, or just another someone from Pinside who thinks they will be able to build a pinball machine.

YOU HAVE 4 DAYS TO SIGN A CONTRACT AGREEING NOT TO SUE ME - anytime you see a contract who's main purpose is to prevent you from seeking legal restitution - RUN YOU STUPID MOTHERFNCKERS!!!!

YOU CAN HAVE 1/2 CREDIT FOR YOUR DEPOSIT TOWARDS THE GAME YOU WANTED - This is so dumb, if you are even thinking about agreeing to this, send me a PM. I'll give you 100% of your Poopaduke credit towards a $16,000 kick in the ass. Best bargain in boutique pinball.

SUE POOPADUKE NOW - don't wait another second. Find a single Chicagoland attorney to represent you guys (to save on fees), and be done with it.

I don't see how this option works for people in on RAZA who still want RAZA and don't want the 50 cents on the dollar conversion to MG.

If you say you want to wait for RAZA, there is no mention of whether your deposit will still apply 100% (not 50 cents on the dollar), nor any discussion of what the eventual RAZA cost might be. Not to mention they state "should you wish to wait for the possible creation of a RAZA..."

Anyway, I guess by "agree to this and you get a pinball machine," you must be describing the MG conversion option.

Ok, I'll bite. How is this investor risking over $1mm? What am I missing here? He/she is not buying any of the assets nor assuming any of the liabilities, correct? I can't imagine the IP costing anything. Buying the customer base? (sure, done all the time when there is a revenue flow but that is not the case and it's not like one couldn't capture that same base for a few bucks). So where is the $1mm being spent? Second, I assume if he/she is risking the $, they expect a return on their investment. If not, if they are simply a philanthropist, why not just make a gift to everyone who has paid a deposit to make them somewhat whole?

Now let me be clear, I have nothing against the 'investor'. In fact, I don't understand the anger towards them. Seems like they see an opportunity to make a few $ and have priced the games accordingly (including the need to cover any credits for previous payments to JPOP. Again, I don't blame them for doing that. If I take my car to a mechanic and they don't fix it so I have to take it to another garage, it's not like the new mechanic is going to give my a discount because I wasted $500 with the first mechanic)

What's wrong is I bought RAZA. I don't want MG, I think it looks like a turd of a game. No interest at any price, and I damn sure am not going to pony up another $10k for it. So my options are pay an ADDITIONAL $10k for a game I don't want, or wait 4-5 MORE YEARS for a game that they admit they might not even make (and if they do, the price is unknown and there is no commitment how much credit I'll get for my deposit).

Head or gut? Forgive me if I'm not jumping for joy.

This sounds great, but it's just unrealistic unless the "investor" wants to bail out the buyers (and unpaid contractors) out of the goodness of his own heart. It simply wouldn't be a sound business decision to pay well north of $1 million in refunds in exchange for the incomplete mess that JPop has thrown together so far.

I see two options:

1) People sue JPop, he goes into bankruptcy, buyers get little or nothing. Maybe someone buys the IP and actually makes the games someday or at least uses portions of the designs. But the current buyers would get no "credit" for the down payment money that Jpop pissed away if/when games are made using IP purchased in the bankruptcy. This is by far the most likely to occur.

2) Some variant of the (admittedly terribly pitched and probably not fully thought out) deal that JPop's currently hawking gets done. Every single buyer (or enough that refunding a few holdouts is not a deal breaker) signs on and agrees not to sue for a refund. Unless Zidware had insane profit margins on all of the games, something's got to give and the current buyers will effectively have to pay more than initially agreed for the pins. Otherwise, the new investor is promising to make the games for original MSRP minus ~ $5k, and that's just not realistic. These are niche market games, they're never going to sell 500+ to amortize away all the lost deposit funds.

Option 2 is unlikely to work out since most buyers understandably want out at this point. But if there's any chance of it working, I agree with you that it's got to be repackaged and repitched. Identify the new manufacturer, disclose all terms of the new deal, clearly disclose JPop's limited role (firm deadlines, penalties for non-performance, no veto power and no further money to be paid -- his compensation is avoiding bankruptcy). Then maybe there's a shot.

Exactly.

===============================

New Investor: OK, everybody step right up. I'll give you 50 cents on the dollar that Poopaduce owes you, for the good of pinball.

Sucker: Thanks Mister! I had $5,000 in.

New Investor: No problem, my fine young man!

Sucker: Wheew...I appreciate you saving our butts.

New Investor: OK, so you get half of $5,000 off the price of the game....hmmmm....that adds up to....$18,500....so with your deposit credit...... you only owe $16,000! Congratulations!

Sucker: (gulp) Sheesh, it's like I threw that $5,000 right in the toilet.

New Investor: Not at all. I'm not libel for any of Poopaduce's debt, but I'm willing to help you out - for the love of pinball.

Sucker: Thanks Mister! Can you explain this all to my wife?

New Investor: Sure! Is she good looking, or blown out from childbirth?

I am not even considering a $16k pin - no way I will put even a $250 deposit on that one.

Now comes the regular version - priced $10-12k.
For me, adding shipping ($1k?) customs and sales tax would put the game in the $13-16k range... something like 13,000€.

I would spend that amount of money on a modular platform (Heighway or Multimorphic) rather than on a single pin. Or I could buy 3 relatively recent Stern Pros.

All ready for a bombshell ...?

A good friend of mine emailed JPOOP 2 weeks ago asking if he could still buy a AIW.

HE HAD A REPLY IN 9 MINUTES.

(The times show an hour but he sent it from eastern time zone ... Reply was 9 minutes)

JPOOP would have known that he was "in the cart" In NZ, that's called "trading while insolvent" and that's a criminal offense. You can't take people's money when there is no chance of delivering. That's fraud.

Here is the email. Names removed to protect the innocent ...

rd.

On 5/5/15 1:01 PM, ******** wrote:
Is alice in wonderland still being made?

How does one order one?
Thanks

On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 2:10 PM, John Popadiuk <[email protected]> wrote:

Hi,

Yes absolutely. main reveal is here for now. Almost sold out. Currently building the whitewood from this design. To order you would send a Paypal deposit of $4750 ([email protected]). A beautiful piece of illustration and pinball it will be.

http://www.alicepinball.org/chapter2/

John

The problem is (IMO) any "plan" would require nearly starting from scratch from a funding standpoint...

I mean, what are the real "assets" that a new investor is even acquiring?

Some pretty artwork?

It doesn't seem there's much that couldn't just be replicated by a new entity- so not much value in "acquiring" anything from John. The flipside is- all the deposit money that was collected appears to have been completely pissed away....

So there's near-zero motivation for someone to come in and clean-up this mess and take ANY of the liability onto themselves... So the best bet is the folks that lost money might get their game for near-cost, or at a slight discount from someone walking in off the street.

Its hard to see ANY happy ending here..... no matter how many times iceman posts into the thread.

I am not in on Zidware pre-orders. I do know several that are, and I feel for them, and all of you in or out of this deal, b/c sad for anyone in pinball.

My add to the conversation is something new (I hope). Converting every one's deposit to a shareholder position, along with the new licensee, and as a group of owners, hire a factory, and start over with vendors, build games.

After reading the letter, and being involved in a few equity positions of small firms, there may be a way out using another approach.

1. Licensee is buying rights to build that title. Not liable for any $ sent or spent by John pre-June 1.
2. There are no assets for a 2nd or 3rd party to buy - prior pinball shutdowns sold remaining parts (hard assets) to one party, and licensing to another (for example PPS, now owns the Williams licensing and IP to be able to produce games, and get royalties on repro parts.)
3. Given #1, there is no money going to JPop, one benefit is that he bails from build commitment,
4. Given there are no assets, except maybe a few parts, Licensee is not buying Zidware, but taking over the license, newly converted deposits > shareholders would join her/him/them. If you don't convert your deposit to equity - the only other option for Zidware is bankruptcy ch 7. Vendors and deposits spend money to chase $0. ZW/JPop remains a debtor to vendors and folks that don't convert to an equity position.
5. Regardless of Zidware and JPop's financial outcome - a Licensee could still do the games on their own nickel.
6. June 1 appears to be a small fraction of signers, based on posts in this thread, and comment from buyers telling me themselves - the letter, in current form, is dead on arrival.
7. Unless Ice and others are correct about the "angel" having a big revival of trust that MG, etc. will get built - I doubt the Licensee will make any second offer that will be accepted.
8. I presume no amount of changing that letter/offer will change minds to sign it.

So what's the last ditch idea?:
A counter offer that Zidware deposit $ become shareholder $, so become equity owners of the License, along with the angel Licensee, with share of ownership equal to the amount deposited. Of course, to be confident as a part owner - you'd want to know who the big "Licensee" co-owner is (perhaps they have money down, and would be a shareholder anyway?).

A conversion does at least 3 things:
A. every body with $ in, gets a share of future games made - if the Licensee is right that 199 MG's can happen, you have the potential for upside. It might still fail, and you get $0, but at least high risk has a potential for high returns, without upside, your high risk has a return of just great harm. Re: rareness being part of the value of the $16k, at least you'd get some $ from new orders for yours being "less limited".
B. The lawsuit threat goes away for the new owners - drop the "no suing for 4 years" clause for the new entity, yet existing claims on Zidware / Jpop remain. In other words, conversions of deposit into equity shares, should prevent ability to sue yourself (as a new owner) or fellow co-owners.
C. Only those with enough energy remain "in" the project, and are cheering on the effort to get games done - some hope of getting your game, + some upside $ for the risk/pain taken.

What it doesn't do:
A. Can't guarantee anything. But your risk now has some $ return, vs. todays almost certain 100% loss.
B. Still leaves a problem of who is the management person/team. That may be the toughest part, but also some of these posts show some smart, savvy business guys that would be good candidates - should be a fellow shareholder who has skin in the game.
C. It isn't free. This new owner group would need to put in capital - a capital share equal to your new ownership - $ to get parts, hire a builder, and someone to manage all that business side.

An owners of GitRDone Pinall, it might look like this for example:
Lets assume 30 MG deposits at $8k , that's 240,000
Lets assume 100 RAZA deposits at $5k thats 500,000
Lets assume 50 AIW depositings at $5 250,000

Let's toss in a 10k rounding to get a $1,000,000 of deposits.
Every 10K in deposits is worth 1% ownership, and participate in future revenue from larger MG and RAZA production runs.

Lets guess MG BoM/labor at $9k per Bheck's estimate and a $1k profit per game. Sell another 100 magic girls and shareholders split 100K, i.e. a 10K original deposit = 1% = $1k per new MG sold.

To me, that's a bet i can think about, that has both up/down sides, and gets me something for my deposit rather than almost certain $0 in bankruptcy, and maybe below $0 if I have to pay someone to collect my claim. Remember, a claim from a judge, doesn't mean you won't have to pursue collection on that judgement.

Thank you to the late and great Frank Zappa. It just seemed to fit... I hope Frank can forgive me.
(My apology if this song is not "family friendly")

"The Illinois Enema Bandit"

"this is a true story
About a famous criminal
From right around Chicago
This is the story of John Popadiuk
A man who's serving time at this very moment
For the crime of pinball deposit robbery

It so happened, that at the time of the robbery
John, decided to give his pinball victims
A little enema
Apparently, there was no law against that
But his name lives on
John Popadiuk
The Illinois enema bandit!"

The Illinois enema bandit
I heard he's on the loose
I heard he's on the loose
Lord, the pitiful screams
Of all them college-educated pinball players...
Boy, he'd just be tyin' 'em up
(they'd be all bound down!)
Just be pumpin' every one of 'em up with all the bag fulla
The Illinois enema bandit juice
He just be pumpin' every one of 'em up with all the bag
Fulla' the Illinois enema bandit juice

He just be pumpin' every one of 'em up with all the bag
Fulla' the Illinois enema bandit juice
He just be pumpin' every one of 'em up with all the bag
Fulla' the Illinois enema bandit juice

The Illinois enema bandit
I heard it on the news
I heard it on the news
Bloomington Illinois...he has caused some alarm
Just sneakin' around there
From farm to farm
Got a rubberized bag
And a hose on his arm
Lookin' for some rustic co-ed rump
That he just might wanna pump
Lookin' for some rustic co-ed rump
That he just might wanna pump
Lookin' for some rustic co-ed rump
That he just might wanna pump

The Illinois enema bandit
One day he'll have to pay
One day he'll have to pay
The police will say, "you're under arrest!"
And the judge would have him for a special guest
The D.A. will order a secret test
And stuff his pudgy little thumbs in the side of his vest
Then they'll put out a call for the jury folks
And the judge would say, "no poo-poo jokes!"
Then they'll drag in the bandit for all to see,
Sayin' "don't nobody have no sympathy...
Hot soap water in the first degree!"
And then the bandit might say, "why is everybody looking' at me? "

Well did you cause this misery?
Well did you cause this kinda misery?
Well did you cause this misery?
Now, one girl shout: "let the bandit be!"

Bandit are you guilty?
Bandit are you guilty? tell me now, what's
Your plea?
Another girl shout: "let the fiend go free!"
Are you guilty? bandit, did you do these deeds?
The bandit say, "it must be just what they all needs..."
"it must be just what they all needs..."
"it must be just what they all needs..."
"it must be just what they all needs..."
"it must be just what they all needs..."
"it must be just what they all needs..."
Etc. repeat

Wanna, wanna, wanna, wanna enema
Enema
Repeat...

Thank you Frank.
Frank Zappa - "The Illinois Enema Bandit"

This is funny, but it was actually over two years ago and JOHN HAS BEEN LYING TO EVERYONE for the past two years. Most third graders could spearhead this project better than JPop. They would know that if you plan to collect half the money on three projects and also expect it to cost the balance of monies to actually manufacture the pins, then all three pins would need to be fully designed before the deposit money was spent. Instead the money is gone and no pin is anywhere close to being production ready. Are we to believe John woke up one day recently, only to discover there was nothing left in the bank? This is BS, pure and simple. Two years ago John may have had half a million dollars left and he knew almost no progress had been made on any of the three pins. He was in trouble and had no way for this to end satisfactory. But instead of fessing up, he started lying to investors. Note - he had been lying to vendors for the first two years - almost from the start. Contracting for their products and services and then not paying invoices. Remember this is back when he had all the deposits.

Blah. blah, blah ... there were delays, patents had to be filed, games were almost done and would be revealed soon. Sh*t flew out of his mouth fast and furiously every time his lips moved. I am sorry but regardless of the deal being offered, this roast is done. Put a fork in it. Under this plan, John is still involved (because he has to complete design of MG as it is maybe 50% done and will require another few years). The other projects are probably about 10% done. Remember the example above using 3rd graders as the project manager, where all pins needed to be designed before the deposits ran out, well money is gone and pins are nowhere to be found. So you would have to be crazy to stay in a project that John is still involved with and in which you are dependent on John to "design real games now". Sheesh, John, you are a P.O.S..

Not knowing identity of "investor" (I don't care who it is, if pin is not designed, it cannot be built), this person better have a lot of specific pinball manufacturing experience, otherwise they are not qualified. Think about all the recent examples of manufacturing delays from people building first time pins. Furthermore, we have heard from ZombiYeti that he hasn't even been approached about signing onto the project. What the hell? His work is the only part of this sham that needed to be locked in before anyone considers moving forward.

So to anyone saying the choices they are being given now are horrible, you are right. You should have been given some choices two years ago. Instead John lied to you, again, again, again, again, again and again. That is inexcusable.

Based upon what I read in some recent posts, they're checking on the cost of manufacturing the games and are calling people to see who's willing to stay in. After that it's pure economics and like you said, either worth doing or it isn't. One thing's for sure, they've got big brass ones to take this on given the huge pre-order deposit deficit and strong emotions on all sides.

Yes - he was still trying to collect. I think outstanding deposits for RAZA as well - although I could be wrong. I believe there were 2 AIW deposit requests over the last six months. At least some of us ignored both.

Can Someone say what type of corporation Zidware is and what type of assets are off limits for a claw back?

How is this fair for people with $2000 towards an AIW (let's say) that they be forced to pay anohter $14k for MG? Is there no walk around for people who have no incentive to take the 'take it or leave it' offer?

If I was in a minority stake deposit situation, the only sensible choice would be court, no sense in letting John off the hook when I could wait and see the games if they ever get made and pay less than $16k (limited edition BS edition).

And while we're around the subject can all future manufactures please drop the LE bull-S. Just make a full function game, especially at 10k plus. I got a laugh from the coast to coast podcast, he said the LE would be $5k more but the standard would have all the same functionality. So he said what would make the LE worth another $5K does it come with a Kiss pro stapled to the side of the box?

Sorry to hear - that sucks.

Wife put her foot down after deposit #1 and said no more until MG ships. And the rest is history...

Thanks for sharing. MG cabinet artwork is gorgeous. It's quite fortunate I do not live closer, because I have to admit I could have felt for it after visiting his shop... No wonder so many of you gave JPop a pass for so long. I would have too.

Could a person like me become a MG / Pintasy customer now? Possibly...but are my conditions:
- no more JPOP, as a consultant or employee.
- priced below $10k (sorry, at $16k the game better come with a rug, Lebowski-style, except this one would be flying!)
- deposit below $1k. No more money until game ships.
- deal with a known manufacturer.
- a long video of gameplay showing code is mature.

I'm curious if he even read my last sentence. The guy did run a sign business, so I'm very skeptical that he is not just a compulsive liar. Kinda reminds me of John Lovitz on SNL. I do believe John knows what he is doing. I think he would take a deposit tomorrow if someone offered him one.

Plus I've heard stories about how the money we gave him, was his money and he could spend it on whatever he wanted. I'm hoping people filled claims and he gets investigated.

There seems to be many conflicting uses of the terms license, asset and liability here. If I understand the last 11500+ posts, it seems Wc and group at Pintasia have bought a license to build games. They are borrowing MG from Zidware to complete a working prototype to be at the NW pinball show to see if there is interest - from pre-order buyers to stay in and from potential new orders to bring the MG production run to 199. A license doesn't not mean Pintasia buys any part of Zidware. Assets would include any physical or virtual parts of the game (hardware and software, including data in design files) - so they get none of that. They don't inherit the IOU's of deposits that have been made (so no liabilities) nor any liabilities to vendors (which seems like there is a lot of open invoices to many/all vendors of programming, parts, art work, etc.). What we are all struggling to understand is that many of the liabilities are outstanding accounts payable - so where is all the cash? - if you didn't pay any invoices, and you only leased space and machines - there should be a lot of cash in paypal.
For simplicity though - lets assume all the cash went to leases and salary - and Zidware has nothing except a shelf of parts and a few cabinets/playfields/boards that appear to total maybe 3 machines in total.

So that would inform everyone with a Zidware accounts payable claim(i.e. unpaid vendors, service providers and customers with deposits) on what decision to make. If there are $0 in assets, except the game going to NW pinball, plus some parts, you could split that by your deposit/total deposits.

All the civil complaints and suing for money back, may win judgements, but I would say if $0 cash to pay you, then Zidware/John will not be able to pay, and collection agencies will need to be hired (by each depositor?). In bankruptcy, there would be large costs of discovery, and net payout to investors after legal and discovery expenses, would be very low or zero.

I think the only logical decision left, is to give Bill and group the 33 days until June 30, before deciding whether or not to transfer your deposit claim to Bill in the form of Pintasia credits. If you don't transfer your deposit claim to Pintasia - you are trying to get $ out of a stone (or you can bet on the chance of there being some $cash - but know that is will be depleted by claims, legal fees, judgements and collection costs) .

If you transfer your deposit claim in exchange for Pintasia credits - then you have to give up your right to sue in order for Pintasia to honor those credits (which MAY worthless). Those credits are the only thing I see that might have value to you as a depositor.

For credits to have value - the NW reveal has to convince depositors and new potential buyers that MG is worth taking to production (by worth = do shots feel right, is the art cool in person, do I think the Pintasia team has a viable manufacturer lined up?). Also, enough depositors have to convert to Pintasia credits (whether in on MG, RAZA or AIW) so that they know if they should proceed or ditch.

Maybe this will help with the use of asset, liability or license. Right now the posts are pretty confusing b/c these words are getting mixed together.

If John had shown those videos two weeks ago, he would have bought himself another year.

But, if he's out of money and can't cover rent (a/c, heat, etc) then he still would have had to do something. I wonder if that's why he was going to try and accept another AIW deposit. To buy himself another month or two.

Really such a shame.

How many of us think that the vendors like GLM, Cointaker, Applesauce, etc. should be made whole by Pintasia?

I do.

But it probably isn't realistic to think that could happen. Pintasia isn't a pinball charity. Do we really think that they are going to come in and just start paying JPop's unpaid vendors when they have no legal responsibility to do so?

The only way they will pay vendors for past due invoices is if it makes business sense to do so. I.e., profit (short term or long term). The same applies to owners who have put money down. How can Pintasia realistically be expected to give everyone 100% credit for their deposits made to Zidware? Lets say there are 100 people who have an average deposit of $5000.00 down on RAZA. That's $500,000.00 in deposits. We think Pintasia can build and sell these pins *and* give a credit of half a million dollars for money paid to someone else?

I don't see how this math can ever work, assuming the goal here is to break even.

How much profit can reasonably be made on each pin sold?

Friend of mine put in $500 as a deposit nearly 4 years ago for position #X in the list of original 13 Magic Girl machines promised. Was told by John Pop that in short order the 'paper work package' was forthcoming and the position was secured. However, JP nearly immediately (within hours or a day) asked if more machines were to be made (a new number of 19 was tossed out, and then again 25) would the $17,000 dollar price tag for the game be OK.

John Pop knew before or shortly after making this initial offer the numbers didn't add up. Anyone with any common sense or ability to discern truth from lies did as well.

The paper work package never did show up, and neither did much else (emails often going unanswered, his 'answers' to questions which had never been asked, reasonable conversations not materializing, details of any kind or even NDAs to look over and sign) during the 3 weeks from where $500 was paid and ultimately a refund from demands to him for the money back. It didn't pass the stink test at all then, and its rather shocking how many folks bought into his growing level of BS during the next four years. There was a reason while designers were being snatched up that Stern, JJP didn't hire him. The industry knew of JPop being nothing more than a prima donna dreamer, not an implementer.

When I met JPop in person in the Fall of 2011 it was clearly apparent a flunky group of folks floated around John Pop trying to maintain a cult of personality. My friend had made the right decision, too bad so many didn't understand what was being presented to the public was an attract mode to a game which ultimately takes more than just your lunch money.

I laughed when Ben signed up, even with the understanding of his habitual drinking. BH did parlay his involvement into games that had a bit more than dead shots found in Lost, so well done.

Hopes and dreams do not make games magically appear. Grit, determination, business acumen, connections, favors, smiles, work ethic, accountability, distribution, design, testing, networks, experience, smarts, luck along with many other things come into play when making games actually appear.

GLWTS

This whole Poopadookie fiasco is really disappointing.

However, on a brighter note, I am getting 12000+ posts worth of entertainment value for myself and fellow Pinsiders from my RAZA deposit. So, I guess it's not a complete loss.

IMHO this is the only chance to get money back to victims. mister Brandes is not prevented from giving deposit credits by bankruptcy.

Things are looking up IMHO . Stuff is coming together, the show is coming up, machine is getting ready . Bankruptcy was always a possibility from the start with mister Brandes and I bet he has that base covered.