(Topic ID: 92436)

John Popadiuk update thread……MAGIC GIRL, RAZA, AIW…..

By iceman44

9 years ago


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#19551 7 years ago

I am on some incredibly "WHAT IF" proposition.

WHAT IF these pinball machines that people are owed to them get made.

WHAT IF they're actually a lot of fun.

WHAT IF WHAT IF WHAT IF.

I'm actually scared shitless to figure these dudes out.

#19553 7 years ago

I just received a call from American-Pinball regarding my MG and they have a plan in place to try to get these out by the end of the year. The way I look at it is my money is GONE and this is the ONLY idea I've heard about to build this pin in over a year, so we'll see how it goes.

#19554 7 years ago
Quoted from Cornelius:

I am on some incredibly "WHAT IF" proposition.
WHAT IF these pinball machines that people are owed to them get made.
WHAT IF they're actually a lot of fun.
WHAT IF WHAT IF WHAT IF.
I'm actually scared shitless to figure these dudes out.

I just had a pretty in-depth conversation with them. PM Me if you want to discuss

#19555 7 years ago
Quoted from lpeters82:

As long as I get the three machines I preordered I'll be happy.

Not funny to those that are out money for games.

#19556 7 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Not funny to those that are out money for games.

12
#19557 7 years ago

Listen, if by some miracle they made everyone whole, then by all means once that is done they can go be a success with whatever titles they want to release and I doubt they will get too much blow back. They actually would be heroes.

I am confused by this effort to talk to MG owners and not anyone else. That will not rehabilitate John's reputation or set them up for success, leaving the lion's share of burned owners stiffed.

In the end, RAZA and AIW money paid for development of MG. They are all the same thing.

#19558 7 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Not funny to those that are out money for games.

Or parts. Isn't GLM on the hook for purple boards ?

10 people getting games ( which I hope happens ) doesn't cover everything.

LTG : )

#19559 7 years ago

I can't believe people are getting their hopes up. Have we learned nothing?

#19560 7 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

Listen, if by some miracle they made everyone whole, then by all means once that is done they can go be a success with whatever titles they want to release and I doubt they will get too much blow back. They actually would be heroes.
I am confused by this effort to talk to MG owners and not anyone else. That will not rehabilitate John's reputation or set them up for success, leaving the lion's share of burned owners stiffed.
In the end, RAZA and AIW money paid for development of MG. They are all the same thing.

MG is the immediate concern. They are still working on plans for RAZA and AIW. MG was far enough along that they wanted to put it over the finish line.

#19561 7 years ago
Quoted from MinusWorlds:

MG is the immediate concern. They are still working on plans for RAZA and AIW. MG was far enough along that they wanted to put it over the finish line.

Anyone and i mean anyone that gives them even a penny before every single mg, raza, and aiw customer is made whole is a dbag and a disgrace to the hooby you love.

Don't be a dbag!

Aside from the reality it just won't happen. You really are pretty dumb to support this company in any way, even by giving them your attention. I really think the best course of action if they show up to expo is to not let them talk and just continually ask them Where the money is? They don't even deserve any more patience or time for the claim of any development.

Plain and simple, return all the money that was stolen, pay all the parts people, pay your coder and artists...

Then and only then should they be getting yout attention.

#19562 7 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Anyone and i mean anyone that gives them even a penny before every single mg, raza, and aiw customer is made whole is a dbag and a disgrace to the hooby you love.
Don't be a dbag!
Aside from the reality it just won't happen. You really are pretty dumb to support this company in any way, even by giving them your attention. I really think the best course of action if they show up to expo is to not let them talk and just continually ask them Where the money is? They don't even deserve any more patience or time for the claim of any development.
Plain and simple, return all the money that was stolen, pay all the parts people, pay your coder and artists...
Then and only then should they be getting yout attention.

I agree Hilton. I didn't reach out to them. They reached out to me. When I talked to them I asked tough questions. I told them they weren't going to get any money from people until the wrongs are righted. And even then who knows...All I'm saying is they think they have a plan in place that will achieve that.

#19563 7 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

In the end, RAZA and AIW money paid for development of MG. They are all the same thing.

Seems like whoever concocted this scheme didn't think it out too well did they Frolic.

Either way, as far as I'm concerned American Pinball doesn't exist and never will. DOA.

#19564 7 years ago
Quoted from MinusWorlds:

All I'm saying is they think they have a plan in place that will achieve that.

Outlined as what?

#19565 7 years ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

Not defending jpop at all, but if he came on pinside and tried to apologize and explain things (if that's even possible)- his balls would of been cut off and roasted on an open flame.

Jpop had that opportunity about 15,000 posts ago.... Not to mention the last few years.

#19566 7 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Outlined as what?

They wouldn't give me all the details. Cliff notes tho. Make everyone whole, starting with MG.

#19567 7 years ago

If they make MG is it only gonna be for the original pre order people or will they be mass producing it for everyone.

#19568 7 years ago
Quoted from Mitch:

If they make MG is it only gonna be for the original pre order people or will they be mass producing it for everyone.

Flip a coin, if it's made it's a 50/50 shot at these options.

#19569 7 years ago
Quoted from HighProtein:

Flip a coin, if it's made it's a 50/50 shot at these options.

Just make sure jpop isn't around he might grab the coin mid air and run off.

#19570 7 years ago
Quoted from HighProtein:

Flip a coin, if it's made it's a 50/50 shot at these options.

Well the problem then becomes how many more buyers do you have at $16k? There's no way they could sell it for less without refunding whatever the difference would be to the original buyers. Then it becomes a math problem.

10
#19571 7 years ago

The real question is why would an organisation completely unrelated to Jpop/zidware agree to reimbursing all previous customers/suppliers of Zidware? The debts were incurred by Zidware.

The only possible answer to that is they are doing it in return for John Popaduik's time/salary/intellectual property that will be incurred designing future games for American Pinball. And also to build good will amongst collectors that will mean the Jpop name is not toxic going forward.

Assuming the cost of reimbursing everyone is $1-2million. Is it possible Jpop's intellectual property and the goodwill is worth even remotely that figure? What is a Jpop design worth? How many games must he design before American Pinball has returned their investment in taking over Jpop's debts? 5 games? 10 games?

The whole thing sounds really strange to me.

#19572 7 years ago
Quoted from cooked71:

The real question is why would an organisation completely unrelated to Jpop/zidware agree to reimbursing all previous customers/suppliers of Zidware? The debts were incurred by Zidware.
The only possible answer to that is they are doing it in return for John Popaduik's time/salary/intellectual property that will be incurred designing future games for American Pinball. And also to build good will amongst collectors that will mean the Jpop name is not toxic going forward.
Assuming the cost of reimbursing everyone is $1-2million. Is it possible Jpop's intellectual property and the goodwill is worth even remotely that figure? What is a Jpop design worth? How many games must he design before American Pinball has returned their investment in taking over Jpop's debts? 5 games? 10 games?
The whole thing sounds really strange to me.

BINGO and agreed. So strange

#19573 7 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Aside from the reality it just won't happen. You really are pretty dumb to support this company in any way, even by giving them your attention. I really think the best course of action if they show up to expo is to not let them talk and just continually ask them Where the money is? They don't even deserve any more patience or time for the claim of any development.

Plain and simple, return all the money that was stolen, pay all the parts people, pay your coder and artists...

Then and only then should they be getting yout attention

Here's the thing...

I've talked to no one, and I have no skin in the game other than being an interested observer... BUT, I don't know what it would accomplish to constantly shout over someone else when they are going to be answering the questions that you want them to ask. As for them not deserving the patience of time for any development, why not? If they are moving the games forward toward actual completion, I don't know why people would take that as a bad thing. Either way, I'd be very interested in hearing how they are planning on doing everything.

For the pre-order money people keep mentioning, I don't think any pinball company is going to be set up that way any time soon. Spooky didn't take pre-order money to avoid exactly what has happened to those who have. Any businessman looking at it I think would come to the same conclusion - pre-order money is not a safe way to start a business.

As for why this is happening, here's my guess - John spent a lot of time creating and prototyping brand new stuff for his games - boardsets, cabinets, and whatnot. If I had a bunch of money and was starting a new company, having those as potential starting assets might be worth considerable money to me as it allows me to better control my own future. It could be completely reasonable for a new company to assume $1M in "debt" to essentially have their identity established for them. Obviously, it comes with baggage, but if you have a plan in place to come through on that baggage, it doesn't seem that completely insane to me.

My guess is they planned to unveil all of this at Expo and were surprised that people connected the dots beforehand. I have a guess about what they would plan to do to make RAZA / AIW orders right in the future. We'll see. Like I said before, I am terribly curious to see what they have to say about their plans, but I would be incredibly disappointed if they couldn't tell people their plans because people keep shouting at them. Let's give them a chance, and then if things aren't answered good enough, then go back and ask more questions. If those still aren't answered, I'll shout with you.

#19574 7 years ago
Quoted from cooked71:

Is it possible Jpop's intellectual property and the goodwill is worth even remotely that figure?

I have no idea the answer to this, but...

The cabinets that he designed, were they awesome? I vaguely remember seeing one at MGC a few years ago and thinking it did look really nice. To a new company, if that design is worth, say, $200 / game and they expect to sell 5000 games a year, that's $1M / year right there of value.

For as nutty as John was with stuff, he loved his patents. I believe he had something like four or five patents for his design work already. If he had designed mechs that worked around the existing rights for other machines, you could pretty easily justify a huge startup cost gone and find the value of your $1M - $2M right there. In that case, the actual design work of John might not even be what you are interested in at all, but instead just the other stuff.

I have little idea of exactly how far John got with most of this stuff, which is why I'm terribly interested to hear more. I would hope whomever will be talking will explain exactly what value they saw there and why. If they are a boutique manufacturer, I don't see how the value can be there. If they are planning on rivaling Stern, I can see it easily... although then I have SO many other questions...

#19575 7 years ago

Ice, why don't you edit this thread title to include Houdini. Stuff all of the Jpop nonsense in 1 thread.

#19576 7 years ago
Quoted from goatdan:

If they are a boutique manufacturer, I don't see how the value can be there. If they are planning on rivaling Stern, I can see it easily...

That's it..... comes down to volume. And whether Johns IP is really so revolutionary compared to what's already available, or can be sourced elsewhere. Is his cabinet design so much better or cheaper than the standard cabinet? Is his "Magna save" design so unique that it ads real value to a game compared to one that doesn't use exactly this design?

As far as I can tell, the biggest barrier to entry in pinball manufacturing is the manufacturing. I don't think John had some revolutionary manufacturing methods under wraps, just waiting to be implemented. If he did, I'm sure we would already have seen unboxings of 26 Magic Girls and 200 Raza's.

Design is obviously important, but there are other designers available.

#19577 7 years ago
Quoted from cooked71:

That's it..... comes down to volume. And whether Johns IP is really so revolutionary compared to what's already available, or can be sourced elsewhere. Is his cabinet design so much better or cheaper than the standard cabinet? Is his "Magna save" design so unique that it ads real value to a game compared to one that doesn't use exactly this design?
As far as I can tell, the biggest barrier to entry in pinball manufacturing is the manufacturing. I don't think John had some revolutionary manufacturing methods under wraps, just waiting to be implemented. If he did, I'm sure we would already have seen unboxings of 26 Magic Girls and 200 Raza's.
Design is obviously important, but there are other designers available.

That is what they (AP) said they bring to the table. The manufacturing piece. I asked for specifics and they wouldn't give them other than to say they have that part figured out through "connections". I started digging and they said they wouldn't discuss specifics.

#19578 7 years ago
Quoted from goatdan:

For as nutty as John was with stuff, he loved his patents. I believe he had something like four or five patents for his design work already. If he had designed mechs that worked around the existing rights for other machines, you could pretty easily justify a huge startup cost gone and find the value of your $1M - $2M right there. In that case, the actual design work of John might not even be what you are interested in at all, but instead just the other stuff.

JPop's patents were never really financially viable. There's been a lot of discussion about that issue on this thread. Here's a brief synopsis (Pinside Google-fu is your friend)...

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/jpop-update-thread……………mg-raza-and-aiw…?tq=Patent&tu

#19579 7 years ago
Quoted from cooked71:

Assuming the cost of reimbursing everyone is $1-2million

The photo shows 16 cabinets... Ben reported the BOM was around $7000 per machine so that's $112,000. I'm sure you'd get that BOM down with standard flipper mechs etc, rather than crazy custom ones.

There could well be more money to be paid by customers on those 16 machines too. Who knows who is paid in full? Some may have only paid half. I don't think even JPOP knows who has paid what.

rd

#19580 7 years ago
Quoted from rotordave:

Who knows who is paid in full? Some may have only paid half. I don't think even JPOP knows who has paid what.

I was thinking exactly that...bill said his books were a mess.
And after dealing with the loss of maybe $8000 , and leaving it behind you, there are cases of people that i'm sure don't want to pay another $8000.
Too dicy

#19581 7 years ago

I recall having a conversation with John about MG and the # had gone from 17 to 25 MG's paid or in some form of partially/fully paid.

Pre Expo he was talking about going to 50 MG's because "there was no way it was feasible to do such a small limited run of pinball machines".

I wonder if that thought crossed his mind as he was collecting $$$ for MG to "kickstart" his company?

He was getting ready to take $$, around expo time, for the additional 25 MG's. For the people on the list, like Bill and I, he said "to be ready to go with funds".

Expo time came, TBL blew people away, John had his empty cab and then vowed to have his own "rug reveal" on December 17th that year.

He lied and deceived for years.

Had he been closer than he actually was he would have taken those MG $$$ then, the reason he kept taking AIW $$$ and consistently asking for it, was because nobody expected a pin anytime in the near future at that point.

#19582 7 years ago

One reason people preordered MG was due to it being a limited release and the machine would most likely hold its value if not increase in value.

I'm guessing Houdini is a MG re-theme.

I don't recall the price of MG, but I was thinking around 16K?

Are MG owners who paid that high price going to be happy with a game that now has a brother?

The price shouldn't be that high if many of the parts will be mass produced.

#19583 7 years ago
Quoted from hardware:

I'm guessing Houdini is a MG re-theme.

You are guessing,like you say.
Can't build your point on that.

#19584 7 years ago
Quoted from hardware:

One reason people preordered MG was due to it being a limited release and the machine would most likely hold its value if not increase in value.
I'm guessing Houdini is a MG re-theme.
I don't recall the price of MG, but I was thinking around 16K?
Are MG owners who paid that high price going to be happy with a game that now has a brother?
The price shouldn't be that high if many of the parts will be mass produced.

At this point, "happy" is a relative term.

#19585 7 years ago
Quoted from goatdan:

Let's give them a chance, and then if things aren't answered good enough, then go back and ask more questions. If those still aren't answered, I'll shout with you.

sorry, but the only question that need to be answered are exactly what, how, and when they are making previous people whole.

Plain and simple, they need to refund everyone and then we can listen about whatever the hell BS they want to spew. Any company associated with Jpop does not deserve the communities time and attention (or stage at expo) until they have taken care of every last penny from the past.

Keep in mind that they are using IP that was paid for by the hard earned dollars of fellow pinheads to try and work towards potential future profits (and apparently have been working for a while already) and still no communication or solid plan.

At this stage it is BS for them to even promise delivery of any games without offering full refund for all that have $$$ in.

John will be LUCKY if all he gets is shamed, asked some tough questions, and chased out of expo. I know one particular person that got taken by him and is rightfully pissed enough that the biggest surprise/event at expo may be the outcome of his interaction with John/ American Pinball. I haveno idea how he will react, but he is not someone I would ever screw with, does not use social media, and it will be a surprise when he shows up and sees john.

#19586 7 years ago
Quoted from pinballrockstar:

You are guessing,like you say.
Can't build your point on that.

Just curious. Are you the same rockstar who defended JPOP on his blog? And then tried to get your comments deleted after he failed?

Like I said I'm just curious.

#19587 7 years ago
Quoted from rotordave:

The photo shows 16 cabinets... Ben reported the BOM was around $7000 per machine so that's $112,000. I'm sure you'd get that BOM down with standard flipper mechs etc, rather than crazy custom ones.
There could well be more money to be paid by customers on those 16 machines too. Who knows who is paid in full? Some may have only paid half. I don't think even JPOP knows who has paid what.
rd

Plus unpaid debts to suppliers and Raza payments. Not sure where I got the $1m-$2m but was somewhere on Pinside....which is of course fact. Tracking it all down will be impossible.

No doubt they can get the BOM on MG down, with a re-themed houdini being the most obvious way. Buyers who forked out $16k might not be happy. I wouldn't be. But I'd be more happy than having no game at all.

It's weird all these buyers are getting personal calls from AP.

#19588 7 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

At this stage it is BS for them to even promise delivery of any games without offering full refund for all that have $$$ in.

I agree! I don't believe anyone would take MG instead of a refund at this point.

The game will be nowhere near what the hyped expectation was.

#19589 7 years ago
Quoted from hardware:

I agree! I don't believe anyone would take MG instead of a refund at this point.
The game will be nowhere near what the hyped expectation was.

Accept the diluted version of MG or get nothing. I doubt there will be another option.

Refunds will not be issued, nor is this new company obligated to issue refunds.

19
#19590 7 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

sorry, but the only question that need to be answered are exactly what, how, and when they are making previous people whole.
Plain and simple, they need to refund everyone and then we can listen about whatever the hell BS they want to spew. Any company associated with Jpop does not deserve the communities time and attention (or stage at expo) until they have taken care of every last penny from the past.
Keep in mind that they are using IP that was paid for by the hard earned dollars of fellow pinheads to try and work towards potential future profits (and apparently have been working for a while already) and still no communication or solid plan.
At this stage it is BS for them to even promise delivery of any games without offering full refund for all that have $$$ in.
John will be LUCKY if all he gets is shamed, asked some tough questions, and chased out of expo. I know one particular person that got taken by him and is rightfully pissed enough that the biggest surprise/event at expo may be the outcome of his interaction with John/ American Pinball. I haveno idea how he will react, but he is not someone I would ever screw with, does not use social media, and it will be a surprise when he shows up and sees john.

Hilton, 1000 likes...

Folks, I lost $ 10,000. Skin in game. Like a fool I was in on RAZA and AIW. I haven't gotten a phone call or promise or anything.

Where were we left at last with JPOP and $ 1M and years of fiddling around ? Answer : Empty cabinets with pretty art he had nothing to do with.

Where are we today ? Empty cabinets with pretty art. Hmmm...

AP wants my respect and support - Refund every last person who lost money - including RAZA and AIW buyers - our money was just as green as MG buyers. Total bullshit to address one and not the others... Why do that ? Because they can show you empty cabinets of MG easily and make promises off the image.

At this stage - there are 3 weeks before Expo - plenty of time to release their plan for RAZA and AIW as well - both by calling each buyer and also publically posting. Until then they deserve zero platform for anything and I will be standing with Hilton arm in arm asking 'Where's my money'. Anything they have shown thus far is a 'buy time' technique to dispel any negativity towards their real objective - selling Houdini's. Until then this is another Lucy pulling the football from Charlie Brown. We've been through it enough - I'm the biggest sucker there is when it come to pinball passion - but not buying into anything until we get results... Clean the shit up first then you deserve a platform and people interested in buying Houdini. They should not have a stage at Expo, period, end of story.

That said, make EVERYONE right, make a kick ass Houdini - I'll be the first in line with a fistful of cash.

#19591 7 years ago

I think most zidware customers are in the "something is better than nothing camp"... and that could even include putting their money owed towards a Houdini or something (which for most of us would be a wash, not asking us for more $$$).

But it has to be SOMETHING... this rumored talk about RAZA and AIW owners being taken care of "later" is not going to work if they want to launch successfully.

23
#19592 7 years ago

Does the stock market let Bernie Madoff ring the opening bell at the stock market ?

NO STAGE AT EXPO unless they fix the wrongs done to this community.

I know several people who did NOT have the money they lost to lose. People who struggle to stay in the hobby and STILL supported Jpop due to his talent and them wanting to support new things in the hobby. Those people are the ones who really got HURT. They gave him money that could have gone to car payments, mortgage payments, kids college money, food on the table, you name it, etc... So yes I have seen how bad this sucks. We call all complain about a game that we don't have and stuff, but there were much deeper injuries done to people that go beyond not having a pinball machine we paid for.

I get sick to my stomach knowing how much myself with PinballSTAR, Dan Spolar at Project Pinball, Joe Said and Pinball EDU, and others do to raise a few hundred dollars at a time to donate pinball machines to children's hospitals. So that $ 1 MILLION dollars SUCKED out of our community could have gone to that and made a real difference. So, yes, I'm pissed off. To add insult to injury nobody ever got a call to say, I'm sorry, I messed up, it's my fault.

NO STAGE AT EXPO unless they fix the wrongs done to this community.

#19593 7 years ago

I just don't understand this latest twist. Something doesn't make sense from a strictly capitalistic perspective. Why would a new investor take on the responsibility to make MG, RAZA and AIW customers whole? Just so JPop will design Houdini? That seems crazy. His services are not even remotely that valuable. Unless this is a case of simple altruism. I sure hope that's the case, but I'm skeptical.

I'm also not sure that they even have the right to MG. Doesn't Brandes own the rights? Does he also have the rights to RAZA and AIW? Perhaps he would let them use his property, again out of altruism, but who knows...?

#19594 7 years ago

Lots of passion here and I get it... no one likes being taken on any level, especially when huge sums of money are involved.

American Pinball has a phone number, Step One for every buyer that got taken is calling AP direct opening the conversation.

#19595 7 years ago
Quoted from PinballSTAR:

NO STAGE AT EXPO unless they fix the wrongs done to this community.

I agree. It would be like if Kevin Kulek returned with an Experts of Dangerous seminar at expo and someone defending that because no one put money into THAT game.

#19596 7 years ago

Do I miss something?

They have an employee that owes people money, correct?

I have a customer myself who owes me money for a year now, doubt that his employer will reimburse me. Or should I call their number and open conversation?

You guys are a trip....

#19597 7 years ago
Quoted from DerGoetz:

Do I miss something?
They have an employee that owes people money, correct?
I have a customer myself who owes me money for a year now, doubt that his employer will reimburse me. Or should I call their number and open conversation?
You guys are a trip....

And this right here folks is why this needs to be stopped... Because there are plenty out there NEW to the hobby who will get sucked in. It's about standing up for those of us who lost and defending those who might again... At every stage of this debacle and with Skit B we all looked back and said 'How could we have been sooo stupid and naive'... Don't get suckered in again.... Show me the money, then we can ooh and ahh again.

#19598 7 years ago

I will add whoever the folks are behind American Pinball - they owe us nothing. We do not expect them to pay for their employee's wrongs. BUT if you expect support from this community given who they have hired - there are caveats with that... They came HERE on Pinside and are trying to go to Expo to drum up support and sales... They came into OUR house, so earn that platform first.

#19599 7 years ago

While I would like some people to get something back and would love for everyone it just does not add up.

It feels like when Predator people got the reimbursement email from PayPal that Kevin issued only to have the rug pulled out another time.

#19600 7 years ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

Accept the diluted version of MG or get nothing. I doubt there will be another option.

I don't think you understand how the law or the real world works in these situations.

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Mircoplayfields
Flipper parts
$ 7,295.00
Pinball Machine
Maine Home Recreation
Pinball Machine
From: $ 22.00
Cabinet - Other
Mod Magic!
Other
Trade
Machine - For Trade
Mclean, VA
$ 48.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
The MOD Couple
Toys/Add-ons
6,750 (OBO)
Machine - For Sale
Briarcliff Manor, NY
Great pinball charity
Pinball Edu
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