I am not a lawyer, but I was the plaintiff in two cases where my attorney managed to successfully pierce the corporate veil of both LLCs. However, I know that there are many attorney's on Pinside much better versed on the subject than I am.

I asked him numerous times before he eventually sent me a statement, but it was correct... Naturally my own records were scrupulous (heh), but I still wanted his confirmation.

If a corporate legal entity like Zidware fails to keep adequate accounts, then that is, de facto, corporate fraud, and may even draw into question the validity of his corporate structure (i.e. personal assets can now be attacked). An easy win for the plaintiffs Anyone know how much his house is worth?

Edit: I think this is Jflop's house:

http://www.homesnap.com/IL/Bartlett/722-Chestnut-Court

Worth approx $330k. Not massive, but could pay off one-third of his debt, I guess, assuming he has no mortgage. Boy, I wish UK house prices were as low as this!

Not that you care but you got your first thumbs up from me ever with that comment.

The creation of the grocery store and its infrastructure were not funded by the bag of potatoes and box of Cheerios I bought this morning.

I'm getting tired of reading this statement over and over again as though it's a known fact.

If everyone believed this way and therefore didn't sue, JPop would literally get off Scott free...with nobody actually knowing how much money he or Zidware had left.

I'm not saying there is definitely money left. I'm just saying that the repeated statement of there being zero money as a fact isn't the case either.

Do NOT believe anyone that tells you there is no money left. The facts are that there is still a shop and the lights are on. From what I can tell no bankruptcy proceedings at this time.

Plain and simple, there is still currently money and I hope anyone owed a large sum it putting in just a little more to try and recoup some of that money.

Worst case you end up with nothing but atleast humiliate Jpop and create some havoc in his life.

Maybe not their first store, but their 2nd store was.

This type of dialogue should have occurred prior to people taking out their checkbooks.

"have"

Yes. Also, all unsecured creditors (vendors, pre-orderers like us) would be in the same boat. Only secured creditors would be higher up the pecking order for payment. The insinuation 'oh don't bother suing, you won't get anything' is just an attempt to put people off from suing. Even Jpop and Pintasia's letters argued this, so it's clearly bollocks that only serves their interests, and certainly not ours!

Don't fall for it. Yes, we may get no money, but no-one knows what assets are available to seize currently. We need court action to determine this, and that's the whole point of the legal action! For $500 it's well worth a punt to get this muppet.

So in total how many people got screwed on the buyers side?

Looks to be somewhere around 200. (~20 MG, 125 RAZA, and who knows how many bit on AIW) ....although some people bought multiple titles. That would bring down the number screwed but the numbers up on those who were screwed.

Thanks for the link. I went ahead and filed a complaint tonight, took less than 5 minutes. Based on the news that the FTC actually went after a kick-starter board game that was 1/10th of this amount, maybe enough complaints will get some attention on him too. If you've been victimized here, why not give it a try?

On another note, while I was searching for his address this website came up: www.nanoschool.org
[apparently taken down after posting]

Anyone else know he is currently the Director of the NanoSchool of Chicago? He's apparently also lead developer on a handful of iPad Games that are in the app store? As he's not a programmer, I wonder who actually wrote those? No wonder he was only working 14 hours a day, 7 days a week on pinball...he's got his director duties and iPad apps to fit in in between!

Ok so 200. So if we want to progress the thread in another maybe positive direction. What can the inside community do to help these guys out a little. I would be willing to donate to the cause or put my skills to good use. Anyone have any ideas?

I agree. There may be no checkbook balance, but there are lots of assets for liquidation. I keep saying there is no cash, but that doesn't value at zero all the parts in boxes, or the partial assemblies, digital files, etc.

If a parts vendor doesn't get paid - lets use GPM for example, if he delivered 100 pixel boards, and only got paid for 10, is he a secured creditor with those hard assets of boards as security interest - or is that a trade receivable unsecured and equal to all other claims?

Who knows how much would be had in cash on a full liquidation auction, but it would be something,to split. I hope this all works out soon for all those that are owed refunds, for invoices or services.

JPG attachments refuse to come through anymore. Gives me upload id error now and won't process them. Only happened since the new server tweaks...

It is a fact while it appears to not be a known fact or I wouldn't have to keep saying it. This isn't speculation on my part. I actually have some data - of which I am sharing in the form of stating that no one will get any money from a lawsuit

Shop is rented, not owned. Was way behind and Bill caught it up . Next fact?

Does anyone have a copy of the contract they can post? We're really just guessing at the language. Not that it really matters, we're just armchair quarterbacking here, a real lawyer is on the case.

I think it's wise to sue. I dunno if you'll ever get your $500 back, but if you can afford it just for peace of mind I say do it. And hey, who knows, it might actually go somewhere.

I agree there are assets. There is zero cash. The assets aren't going to be worth enough for preorders to get cash. After seeing what's there, you'd be convinced as well.

You realize salary does not equate to savings. It's money spent on living, mortgage, etc. It is not money in the bank. It's gone. Someone that can't run a business like this doesn't have a large savings account.

I just assumed he blew a chunk of the cash on machinery. But if that's not the case, and you don't have expensive gear to sell off, how the hell did he burn through it all? Obviously some of it was pure stupidity (buying $7,000 worth of LEDs when you don't even have a single game to show) and lots of it was wasted on custom fabrication, but damn, all of it?

Perhaps you guys can make a case for it. After talking to him recently and the perception that he can still come out of this and move forward, I am convinced that it wasn't ill intent but dumb business.

You would be absolutely shocked to see

Based on what? Hearsay? I don't think you know JPops finances or that nobody will get any money as a fact. Saying otherwise is just you being...you.

Correction: It's "Pop-a-Duke." He bent these guys over.

Get it right!

There's a million exemptions from having to pay... that's what has made the program so contentious. Everyone agrees you need portable health insurance (not tied to your job - in case you lose it) but resent the fact that a lot of people DON'T have to pay. Including members of Congress, people that claim poverty, etc...

But let's not go there. Nobody cared if he was drawing a salary back when they thought he might actually produce something.

$90k on rent, he did pay vendors up through part of 2014, he said he stopped paying himself in Nov 2014 ( I presume that means he got paid UNTIL Nov 2014). Over 4 years, I could see him blowing a million bucks, and nothing to show for it but a few designs on paper and one or two prototype parts. There were probably a lot of designed parts that were done 3 or 4 times - the 1st and 2nd tries cost something, and those are deleted files and tossed in the dumpster pieces. But there is stuff there - its worth something.

Seems to me...

John advertised a process and a product ... times three. It was a gamble that he would design great games but it was not intended in any way shape or form to be viewed a crowd funding project. He implied you would be getting a game, hey because if problems arose, you could always request a refund (this JPoP can really be a jack*SS sometimes). He pitched his products from concept through design phase and onto building and delivering them, while continuing to provide support after the sale. JPoP would have had to guess a price needed to manufacture each and added 100% for overhead, insurance and profit. Based on this crass assumption, at least half the sales price would be needed to manufacturer each game. So when the point came that the 50% money he collected for all three pins was spent, John raised his hand and declared a problem, or did he?

We presume that when John said he quit paying himself a salary in Nov '14, it signals the money was gone. Yet for the next seven months JPoP did not tell us the project was ruined and that there would no money to complete the design and still expect to build and deliver these pins. JPoP is a sleazeball for not raising his hand earlier, imho. Should we dig a little deeper? We might with find a trail of unpaid vendors. I mean come on John, pay people for what you contracted with them for. I think JPoP is a world class d*bag! So had John paid out the $200k probably owed, it would have meant he would have run out of money one year prior. So Zidware was probably insolvent by Nov 2013, and just now in June of 2015, Zidware admits there is not enough money to complete the machines. That is 19 Months too late! For the last 19 months John saw a dwindling bank balance, which if he had paid his vendors would have registered as $0.00, before bank fees.

JPoP has been defrauding 100% of all his investors for the past 19 months. He has been smearing sh*t all over your faces and laughing as he did it. He did not respect you. But is all that so bad, you wonder? Remember the guarantee policy mentioned earlier? It played a big part in John's scheme. If you needed your money back this is how much you could expect and under what circumstances. Deposits were supposed to be safe. Well based on the fact a number of people had been trying to get a refund from before Nov 2013, and JPOP was not refunding them John knew that if he paid 20 people their $8k each on average, he'd need $160k cash or maybe another year of cashflow. If so, this would mean that John was technically insolvent Nov 2012 *** 31 months Ago! Let me restate this new hypothesis - John f*ck*d up and his company Zidware was technically insolvent 31 months ago - Nov 2012, and he has been so brazen as to have ... BEEN LYING TO HIS INVESTORS ever since. Every utterance from John after Nov 2012, is considered by me to be 100% Bu!!$hi+.

John knew what his account balances were and what burn rate he could expect. Had he paid his vendors and refunded money to people when requested, based on his progress as of Nov 2012, he knew the game was over. What John chose to do thereafter imho, was to engage in a series of pathological lying up until June 2015. JPOP is a really big d-bag

If it is any consolation, am confident that John's lack of record keeping, alleged co-mingling of funds, probable lack of proper corporate and personal tax payments, questionable incorporation, multiple lawsuits etc, JPoP should be planning for a busy year. People, that is called - providing service after the sale. Way to go JPoP!

As a small consolation, he could be de-homed soon. I hope it was worth it, John.

Cointaker brought this up. John owes him $7k as John was too busy prior to expo to pay his LED bills.

What kind of person brings politics into a thread like this? It's like demonstrating at a funeral, ugly.

Don't forget at least two nice lease "COmpaNy" cars. Guessing a BMW SUV for the mrs. to haul the kids around.

In a house like that with no fences, who mows what lawn? All the houses here have fences.

Well, I'd rather be out $16K and have water than be out $16K not have water.

His is the one on the left with no vehicle.

Money gambled at the nearby Grand Victoria Casino is not going to be given back. He could try to WIN a big jackpot or parlay bet though. Shucks, he probably forgot to take his Club GVC (24 Karat level) player's club card which would show his play level when he lost all he had in savings.

She is listed as an officer of Zidware.

Anyone know if she was drawing a salary too?

I have no idea what he spent

I was responding to people who said Jpop had to return every penny of his salary.

I am sorry Mark but you are not helping those that paid deposits, yourself, or pinbulbs with continually saying this without having any proof of it. Do yourself, the depositors, and the LED company you are part of a favor and stop saying this unless you have actual proof to back it up.

I've been working more than full time. I don't regularly draw a salary. It's not unheard of. And in the past I've not paid myself so I could pay my employees. That's not uncommon. A good CEO puts the business before his personal needs.

I've been involved in start-ups for decades. You don't have to be rich to not draw a salary. Most people in start-ups are actually very poor. A lot of people in start-ups work day or part-time jobs to pay the bills. They just need enough money to survive, and they pour everything else back into the company.

What's funny is, because of JPop's business model, because he fleeced his customers instead of getting a legitimate investor, he was able to operate the way he did. If he actually had an investor, the investor would never have allowed him to draw a big salary - it's antithetical to the concept of a start up. You start a company to get paid when it performs, not while it's getting started.

One of the reasons for the dot-com bust in the 2000s was because people lost sight of how start-ups are supposed to be. They got big investment money from VC firms looking to fleece idiots in the market via IPOs, and these over-funded companies spent more money on their office furniture and their salaries than they did creating viable products. It seems to me JPop thought he was back in the year 1998. I wonder if he even bought himself an Aeron chair? LOL

Full disclosure: I own an Aeron chair. I bought it from the bankruptcy auction of etoys.com.

My guess is $60k/yr, but I bet he charged a ton of stuff on the "company card" also.

It's worth $500 just to get a look at the discovery documents. I bet the stuff he spent money on is going to make Van Halen's rider look boring. For all we know he might have commissioned a "Michael Jackson style" painting of him on a golden throne with a magic wand. I predict the best is yet to come.

Pinball startup....See Spooky for how it's done.

This is redundant. Maybe his salary was "The rest of the money" or he gave himself a "rest of the money" bonus.
Him saying anything like this is just a diversion. His business account and personal account essentially were the same thing.
It's self serving to appear broke.

Suing this guy is the only $$ well spent regards this mess.

It's been a bit. Can someone post Zane Smith Info Again?

I didn't reply the the first time because I thought you were just being factious because of the emotions.. but now you really think this way? Surely you aren't that clueless?

When you hired 'Joes Garage Doors' Joe charged your a price for his goods and services... a Price that includes MARKUP.. markup that is intended to cover overhead, expenses, and an element of profit. Your transaction is with a seller, who is providing goods and services and charging a markup on those things to fund their business... INCLUDING PAYING THE GUYS SALARY.

When you bought an item from ZIDWARE - you were buying a product from the company for a set price, not hiring John on some Time and Materials contract. The company is free to do whatever it feels proper with that money - its not for you as the customer to have any say what so ever on how they fund their operations or what they pay their employees. Their obligation is to deliver on their product - to be successful they need to charge prices that fund both the business and cover their expenses.

YES YOU ARE! OMG.. are you really that obtuse to what it means to run any sort of business? The price of your taco is determined in a fashion to cover expenses and provide a margin to the business.

http://www.zanesmith.com