1000+ posts in one day...good grief, and I thought this was a massive thread before.

It was set to one ball at Expo 2014, just for the record.

I think it would be cool if these early game appearances were set to a timed ball time, instead of a number. Stern did that with Mustang I think, and it seems way smarter. Keep it short, but give people a chance to make mistakes and learn the feel of the game. It's easy to drain your first ball on a playfield you've never shot before.

I still don't understand why everyone jumps to hand over wallets for pinballs that don't even come out. Predator and now this? Really?

and those people that got on to the titanic .. what a bunch of chumps! and who in their right mind would get on the hindenberg, since it was about to explode? didn't they know hydrogen is flammable? (/sarcasm)

I'm nearly positive The Big Lebowski was set on at least 2 balls, but I'm pretty sure it was set to 3 during the Allentown show.

That's what got me about this. If it was Spooky needing help getting the games out, I would have been more than willing to drive to WI to help.

I feel bad about all you guys getting stuck. To be honest, I was on the fence because it was such a large amount but I got caught up with what John had done in the past, such as TOTAN and TOM. But at the end of the day, I realized $10k much less $16k was so much money, I was not entirely comfortable so that I was looking for an excuse to get out.

You have no confirmed sales/reputation from these guys, just "here is a game that will be out in 2 years, I promise" and knowing full well you have no way to get your money back, it's entirely on trust here. Pinball collectors have been scammed for years on Mr. Pinball and this is not different.

Hindenberg and Titanic? Really? At least you got to experience it. You experienced getting your wallet fleeced with what I am saying.

Also special congratulations to the people that dislike my post above, because that makes total sense to still be ok with handing $6000-20000 to people. Wow.

And I will say it yet again, a few years ago all you heard about was bitching about Stern, well, now that you see what it is like n the other side with all these boutique pinballs and Jersey Jack pins that either never come out, break and/or lose your hat in the investment, I sure don't see anyone bringing "those" times up again.

You never know how good you have it until you see the other side apparently.

you're not getting it. for one thing, thankfully, i don't have any skin in this mess. but the main point is that disapproval of your post isn't implicitly an approval of preorder pinball or anything like that. it's disapproval of your crappy post -- hopping into a thread that doesn't concern you and pissing on people who have already lost a bunch of money. nobody was informed or enriched in any way by your mean-spirited comment.

Something like mass hypnosis.

Really if you want my 2c people were/are fed up with Stern (to an extent) releasing games like TAV etc.. And while JJP is an alternative, not everyone was happy with the delays or the game. This was well before AMH or MMR, before Metallica too, so some people just wanted off the Stern merry-go-round.

I lost a deposit on Predator, so yes, this does concern me a bit because it's the second time this has happened recently.

Sure, I didn't put money down on Theatre of Magic II and whatnot but I did on Predator so I am fully aware, I just chose to put the small deposit down.

I am not pissing on anyone. My post is just so people realize they need to learn their lessons about all of the non Stern places. They essentially are funding stuff based on almost a Ponzi scheme and everyone is drinking the Kool-Aid.

I can handle a small deposit, but no way I am handing off thousands unless they game is done, so consider my post a wake up call for people to make stronger safeguards for people trying to take in wild deposits for 2+ years of no pinball.

JJP is a whole other story. From the getgo it has been nothing but questionable but like you said, "mass hypnosis."

Even the Medieval Madness stuff baffles me, people are paying more for a copy of a game than the original now...this is the only hobby where "mass hypnosis" also takes over common sense tendencies. Unreal.

And before all the "dislikes" come up again, keep in mind I am 100% for the community and have over 100+ pinballs on Free Play for one rate so people can enjoy them....I'm not some guy sitting in my $1,000,000 home with superultramegaderp bright LED with $600 toppers and $2000 clearcoats on everything. My apologies to anyone that offends, you can do what you want with your pins but there is big difference with me, I am fighting for the players and the games to come out, not some $10,000 piece to be looked at and
not enjoy.

Your post seems like you haven't read any of the thread and just jumped in to state the obvious. It's annoying.

Well, ice was ejected again... (Permanently this time), so you don't have him trying to respond to every other post.

That right there is a 7% reduction in posting. Add in the dumbasses like me that would get goaded into responding to him, and you're looking at a net 15-20% reduction in noise with the ejection

Double post... (is that happening to everyone?)

i don't understand who you think you're trying to convince. where are you getting the idea that "everyone is drinking the kool-aid"? i think the opposite is true. i don't think ANYONE here on Pinside is ready to plop down pre-order money to any startups at this point. it doesn't seem like you are trying to warn anyone of anything. honestly your post read more like you were running into a burn victim ward and yelling "see, i told you matches were dangerous!"

Sorry, I meant to quote this post in my previous post. I can understand people getting annoyed by this, it's not adding anything and has been obvious for a long time. Then we need to go through the next 8 posts explaining why people don't like it and you defending yourself.

Guilty here too. The thread is much more civil now.

Except in both those cases... they knew what the ship was.. where it was going.. and had good confidence it would make it based on previous similar examples. None of which apply to these startups Carry on...

Just like it annoys me to constantly see people upset that their boutique pinball preorder isn't happening or someone was fleeced. There is an ignore function.

If I was stating the "obvious" then people would stop throwing all their money at pre-orders and we would have some better recourse about it....sure doesn't look "obvious" to me if people keep doing it.

Also I have Ghostbusters pinball coming out in 2018 still, $8500 on pre-order. Funny how I would have no takers on that and I have 30,000+ transactions on buying/selling in 20 years but everyone will go after the guys with 0 credence buying and selling.

Kevin from Skit-B "He's a good guy, he can play pinball, he won't rip anyone off!"
Jersey Jack: "I am sick of getting tossed around by Stern, finance my company everyone!"
John P: "Give me $16000! Surely I am working on it! "Now no one will get their money back, don't sue me, get this other one instead, "trust" me, I made Theatre of Magic and Voltaire!"

Guess I shouldn't have stated the obvious again, right?

I really hope Bill and his crew can pull a rabbit out of the hat since I have a deposit down on RAZA.

Whether he does or doesn't though, my best option, given the following considerations, is to just lick my wounds and wait to see how things unfold.

1) I'm not putting another penny into this venture until I see games rolling off the assembly line (if I think the game is worth it). That rules out losing more money on more vaporware.

2) Considering how long John has been working on these projects, I believe he has burned through all the pre-order deposits. So, I don't feel like throwing good money after bad to lawyers, with the end result being I'm standing in line with a bunch of others to try and collect something that isn't there.

you seem really angry about something, but i'm not sure what. nobody is currently plopping down preorder money. you are not telling anyone anything they don't already know. the vast majority of that money was given years ago (as far as i can tell).

Do people keep doing it, or are you talking about something that happened years ago? Most people stopped paying into these projects in 2014 or earlier. The most recent pre-order has been Alien as far as I can tell, and all pre-orders have been basically shut down since the collapse of the boutiques. So now you are stating the obvious in hindsight.

Hobbit and Big Lebowski? Are those still not for pre-order?

You win the internet for today

JJP has delivered a pin, and shown working prototypes of TH. i dont think they count as a startup anymore. besides that, why are you yelling at JPOP customers about JJP?

This game and thread are currently dead to me. It was pretty interesting up until the game was revealed at the NW show. Still one of the best threads on Pinside. I just feel like the reveal deflated all the energy and drama.

Lebowski pre-orders are over. If I understand correctly, games will be built for those who pre-ordered, and once those start shipping new orders will open through distributors.

The main BOM reduction, in my opinion, is by standardizing the majority of parts that can be standardized. We don't need custom flippers. custom side rails, etc. Everything was reinvented from scratch here. Magnets aren't huge cost so you don't just remove all the magnets and save $10k on BOM. Some of the magnets will need to be removed because the way they were going to be used wasn't reasonable for a magnet (long term ball lock in a charged magnet).

In any event, I believe there are plans to spend some dev dollars on both mechanical and software to finish the game. But development costs are separate from BOM costs. For specifics, you'd have to ask Bill. It's not my place to speak for Pintasia. But Bill is an extremely smart businessman and knows more work needs to be done to ship the game and knowing that wasnt out.

Says the guy arguing with people on an internet forum...

Those things are fucking expensive, but worth it.

Your statement above you are indicating they a ball search is more difficult to code than coding magnets? That's crazy. The p-roc framework already has a built in ball search timer. All you need to do is add the coils to fire. Even if none of this were present it's easy to add timer and have switch events reset the timer (a bit simplified but you should get the point).

Magnets, on the other hand, are very difficult to code. Especially if the magnet is suppose to send the ball somewhere specific. There will be tricky pulse timings and tons of trial and error. In addition, long term holds on magnets will need to be carefuly tuned so that the coil doesn't burn up.

Of course I haven't read through the code so I can't say the state of it. It may be that these features are coded but disabled by flags in the code and lack of switches and magnets.

It does not.

It is not blocked off. The mech is from the top with a small post. It is not a big playfield mech that moves the ball like the genie lamp. It's not even attached to the playfield. It's more like a spinner. The ball should be able to spin the mech and move up the ramp no problem.

They had people on preorder for months while distributors had the game for sale. It is an example.

Prototypes of Hobbit? Wasn't the game supposed to come out months ago?

These are just examples of having to deal with a mess vs just dealing with Stern.

I am not yelling at anyone, but if you call me out for bringing up other companies other than JPOP then the Titanic has no place in comparison here either.

I'm pretty sure everybody agrees that if Bill wants to spend his own money developing this game for the next couple years, all the power to him. That'd be great. I don't think anybody believes that's what the plan is.

Edit: Extremely smart business men lose money all the time. Especially if it isn't theirs.

seems sometimes when you hit post it does it, but it stays on the page, so you don't think it did. When I think this has happened, I've copied by text, and first checked to see if it did or did not post, thinking I can just start a new post and paste it back in. so far though, it seem it has always posted.

Belief isn't reality. So it doesn't really matter what people believe. But if people want to know what is happening they should contact Bill.

To me this speaks volumes about the decision making going on around this game. Why didn't anyone contact him to help?

Also, I'd like to ask PDXMonkey how he considered this game 95% done.

I know another businessman who loved to do all his dealings behind closed doors one on one. I don't know of many honest businesses that run that way. Why would Bill not be able to say publicly what is happening?

true, although I find, at least with the p-roc/driver boards I use, that it is far more likely that a fuse will blow before the coil burns up. When I am working on a magnet or diverter to get the patter right (or to get the pulse and timing right to sling the ball off the magnet), I use a circuit breaker rather than a fuse, since I know I am likely to blow more than a few while trying to tweak it. Those little circuit breakers have probably saved me a $100 at this point.

As far as the ball search timer, sound like that is in there now, but as Jim indicated he had turned it off during development and I'm sure none of the 'volunteers' knew to turn it on or possibly even how. Doubt that would have even resolve the ball hang-up issues that were being reported, since it sounded like they were not necessarily associated with a mech/solenoid.

Nah, I'm burned out on running the owners group, behind the scenes efforts, private emails, phone calls and such. Battling Pinside is the most taxing.

Some of the guys here are so arrogant and insensitive with their know it all comments. I keep reminding myself that each one of you has made a bad decision or two. Or a hundred... Nobody's perfect, even Warren Buffet has had his share of failures. And yet many of you sit in judgment seemingly oblivious to your own past misfortune. Or at least that's the way many of you come off.

And the chronic posters that live here make me believe they must lead such tiny lives. The only satisfaction they get is gossiping about other peoples misfortune and judging them. Or boasting of how something like this could never happen to them. The unspoken hypocrisy is thick in this thread.

And the redundancy, oh my gawd, the redundancy here.

I'm actually at peace with the lost money and have been for a while now. It was hobby money and its been gone for 4 years or so. It's loss has zero effect on my lifestyle or my family. And I don't mean to sound cavalier about losing a lot of money. I intend to hound John Popadiuk into the poor house. But I'll do on my terms and not based on any of the moronic suggestions in this thread.

FYI. Over 14,000 comments in this thread and I cannot recall a single one of them that I found helpful to the owners.
(The term "Owners" for all of you witty critics, is a euphemism. Good grief)

Rant off.

This thread has jumped the shark and had slowly devolved into name calling, finger pointing and speculation based on opinions.
I just wanted to say a couple things before I ignore it because frankly they need said.

Freaking out feels good but accomplishes nothing. I see a lot of people on this thread who should be ashamed of how they are interacting with other people. Treat others how you want to be treated. It's that simple.

Some of the people posting in this thread should really, really, step back and honestly ask themselves if they have anything to contribute to this conversation that has not already been said or that will add anything of value.
We all have thoughts and opinions. That doesn't mean you have to share them all of the time.

I was at the show this last Saturday and here are my two takeaways.

1. Much respect should be given to all of the vendors and workers who actually helped get the game to the point where the public could see it. That includes people who worked on the game before Jpop folded and those who worked to get the prototype to the show.
You all worked very hard and I appreciate that. Thank you for your part in this.

2. As pretty as MG is (and it really is) you would have to be crazy to put new money towards this game. There is nothing on MG that would make me choose it over any other A list game available right now. This dream of owning a rare game that has all of the bells and whistles is just that, a dream. I honestly would recommend that anyone who has skin in this game just walk away. If you didn't have skin in the game, save your money and buy a game from a reputable pinball manufacturer.

Them's are my two cents. Take them or leave them.

I'll leave with one more final plea.

Be nicer to each other and only post when you have something of actual value to add to the conversation. This thread doesn't need any more fuel than what Jpop stoked it with.

You said redundancy twice....

redundancy.jpeg

It's people like you the hobby has to thank for the effort. I have stayed out of this whole mess. I can only hope that people are not so cavalier with their monies in the future. 16k......thats half of what I make in a year. that money could come in handy. Thanks for all your efforts Kim!

This is what Kevin K would call the middle truth, some people would think PDXmonkey is a shill or whatever the term is appropriate for John to keep people from bailing on the project 7 months ago when John still had money to refund or distribute via bankruptcy. All PDXmonkey accomplished was to kick the can down the road a little bit longer for John while John pissed away more money, if PDXMONKEY had said the game is so far from done it's a joke, instead of saying it was 95% done just think of all the money that could have been recouped.

7 months ago:

Was JPoop making this game as a tribute to his ego?

Seen from a bystander, it is even worse to see that thread spiraling down into name calling and bickering than to know that so many of you lost your money.