Freedom of speech. I can address whomever I want in this forum. It's a PUBLIC forum. The best part is you're letting your emotional and financial investment cloud your judgment. Because I have no financial investment I can be a bit more logical. If I see a raw deal for my fellow pinheads I'll say so.

I'm finding it hard to understand why YOU are addressing me when I'm looking out for people...

That could be the colossal mistake on the books that he doesn't want anyone to see.

Ok, I spoke with Bill. We had a good chat. I am not agreeing to anything, or signing anything. I will weigh all options. John still owes me my money or a machine and I will take whatever action I feel about it.

Having said that... I told him we NEED John publicly shamed. If he doesn't want us to sue to destroy him, out of pure spite, which is what I'm feeling, then this is what I want:

John should NOT be allowed to stand beside Magic Girl at this NW show. He should not be given an hour to talk about. He should be denied his "lebowski" moment.

I want my "pound of flesh" and I know this will hurt John in the best way possible. He gets zero time standing there hearing people oooh and awww over the game.

He has lost that privilege. He's freaking lucky he's being spared the shame of bankruptcy by Bill's deal (if it works out).

Bill seems to think he needs John to demo the game and talk about it. I think that can be done by many capable people. And if the game can't be demoed properly without an "expert" standing there, then the game is probably in big trouble anyways.

I feel very strongly that if I see John standing beside that machine will set me over the edge. There needs to be a bit of theater demonstrating in a very visible way that John has lost his baby and is paying penance for his years of lies and deceit.

Out-of-court restructurings are VERY difficult to implement successfully. Why? Because you have to have almost complete participation from creditors in order to keep the company out of bankruptcy. Remember, all it takes is 3 unhappy creditors to file an involuntary petition and unwind the deal.

For that reason, successful out-of-court restructurings (e.g., Composition Agreements) often adopt similar rules and regulations to a Chapter 11 BK (e.g., full disclosure, ad hoc creditors committee, equitable treatment by class, pro rata distributions, and formal documentation).

Composition Agreements typically try to get the biggest creditors on board with the plan, and then pay off all of the smaller creditors owed < $X at full value (i.e., the "convenience class"). The vote threshold is typically higher than required in Chapter 11. Chapter 11 requires supportive votes from 51% of claim holders by number and 67% of claim holders by dollar value. Larger creditors owed more than the vote threshold are often more willing to go along because they have more to lose if the deal doesn't consummate. The convenience class of smaller creditors is typically large in number and vocally resistant to any deal that offers less than full recovery. In a Composition Agreement, it's not uncommon to see a vote threshold established at 90%+ of claims by dollar value to minimize the size of the convenience class and mitigate the possibility of an involuntary petition.

The importance of this cannot be overstated. Full disclosure and transparency are key elements to be considered here, just like they are in a formal bankruptcy case. Creditors expect full disclosure of all aspects of the business in exchange for their consent to any agreement.

The problem is that Bill might need the rock star there to help generate more sales...

Good idea... 16 posts on the last PAGE alone... you're going to burst a blood vessel.

Pretty sure everyone understands your position on the topic...lol....

Enjoy.

There should be two threads:

1)For JPOP buyers that still want their game
2)For JPOP buyers that want out/legal action

Let these folks sort it out.

popadiuk is the farthest thing from a rock star now.

Absolutely an unfair and inaccurate thing to say.

Iceman has been as vocally critical of JPop and the way that things have been handled in the last several months as anybody.

This was not the case with Whysnow and Predator. He was in denial up until the end. I give a lot of credit to him though, he has taken it in stride and has learned from his experience.

Just curious, how concrete is this deal? I mean, John's had guys come in before. Is there any possibility of a Patented JPOP Flake Out(TM) two or three weeks in, with Pintasia posting that "John isn't returning our calls or texts."??

Now I remember... Iceman44 was the guy who was >BASHING< the heck out of Spooky Pinball when they announced they were going to make a game back in 2013 and he was cheer leading JPOP at the same time.

The following quotes are all from Iceman44. It's all in here:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/so-the-spooky-pinball-podcast-are-now-making-spooky-pinball-machines

-----

ICEMAN44 QUOTES:

"Spooky has ZERO chance of producing anything"

"has ZERO chance of succeeding"

"There is ZERO chance that these DB's can produce 1/10th the pin that Jpop can for 1/2 the price".

"These guys have never made a pin before, have zero experience and want you to believe they can make a great pin for less than every other pin maker out there?....Don't think so......"

"But hey, prove me wrong....I won't be on the list knowing what I know..."

"I'll take Jpop at 2x this wing and a prayer"

"lets just wait until all the facts come out and see who is going to be able to do what"

"you can't make a decent pin for 4500, period....especially Charlie, who has zero experience in producing a completed pin....but hey, good luck with that and I won't be a part of it."

"I really like the SkitB guys and hope they make it, I don't and won't support Spooky."

-----

Keep those predictions coming, Ice! Tell us how this latest situation with JPOP will play out.

agree with your assessment, just to add a few things.

Ice doesn't like me posting anything dissenting but on Memorial Day Weekend, I'd like to remind Ice this is still a free country.

Here is my 5c

John, Ice, and new savior all do NOT want any litigation against John. I'm not saying this is a shell game but I'm not saying that hasn't crossed my mind.

My view
--If you sue John you may or may not get a lot (or some) money back, I threatened to sue him and he gave me a refund. I have not seen his books, but he is a crook (IMO) and I would not trust a word he says (does anyone disagree with this statement)?

--If you sign away your right to sue John or if you decide not to sue John. You stand the chance of getting *****ZERO DOLLARS******* that is zero refund and zero game? (does anyone doubt this statement)?

What if in 1-3 years the new owner decides it's too hard, the numbers don't add up, they won't make a profit, they won't sell enough of the most expensive pinball machine ever sold (I said sold not built). So in 1-3 years the pony guy says, building pins is hard, I'm not going to kill myself or lose any money trying so the project is off. You can't sue him, he never took your money has he? You can't sue John can you? Maybe the statute of limitations is up by then and he's off on the beach somewhere.

--The new guy has far less ability, industry knowledge to make pins than Jersey Jack and you see how hard a time Jack is having.

--No one even knows if these pins will be any good, it's a pig in a poke.

Ice was going to talk tough with John 5 months ago, whatever happened to that?

Bill is not an accountant and has not claimed to be an expert accountant forensically. If john did not show him bank account statements from his and his families personal accounts he nor anyone can know if the money is gone. In fact , as part of an unknowing shill in a con, this step is crucial. The participant, one of us, goes in and verifies a rumor. John shows him " the books". But how do we know what was really shown ? I mean what if John did not want you to know everything? This is where he gets ground to stand on, by having a supposed expert examine supposed books. I am sorry but that is exactly how I got embezzled, fake books. Bank statements and tax returns are what must really be examined.

If jpop does not have records of all our payments it's hard to imagine a world where he reported those payments correctly to the irs . What if he did not report it at all?

Best of luck to all who stay on board, I hope you get a game of some kind.

all-get-along.jpg

Has anyone considered how exactly Pintasia can afford to give people 1 credit on these things?

Are they going to have to cheap out on building the actual pins now, because they're working with much less money now? So the buyer still pays for a $16,000 pin, but what he actually gets is more like a $9,000 pin?

Why isn't Pintasia more concerned with where the pre-order money went? Something isn't right...

The idea that john will have an hour to take his victory lap and show off the machine that he made in this way is offensive. Aside from that, an hour at a pinball show would be much better spent with bill introducing his team and explaining to potential buyers how he is going to complete this project. An hour of john bragging about his inventiveness, genius and insistence on the highest quality is a waste of time. At most, john should be introduced as the design consultant member of the team.

You accuse me of being a troll and having no 'skin in the game'? Oh hohoho. You may not agree with my relatively negative views in this issue, but don't try to destroy me as a witness a la OJ Simpson's defense team vs the cops! Very low.

I joined Pinside in Oct 2013. I don't post too often, accepted, but I have paid $20,250 to Jpop. I'm happy to email you my paypal receipts, and correspondence I've had with Jpop since 2011, and indeed the one I sent him 2 days ago asking for a refund or I sue. Two of my machines have been used by Martin Ayub to do reviews in pinballnews, as I don't live far away from him here in the UK. I'm sure Martin could vouch for me as bona fide. Yeah right, as if you're that important (I jest, I'm sure in your fantasy world you are).

The 'tone of the conversation' is negative in places because it's a negative issue, in case you hadn't noticed.

Calling someone a troll is a rather childish and pathetic way to win an argument. But go for it, if you wish to look desperate and foolish. I'd much rather you attack my arguments and the facts than me as a genuine pinsider. Cheers mate

(You know, although pointless, moderately angry Internet posts can be most satisfying!).

Read their proposal more closely.

They don't *have* to give anyone any credit.

They are hoping to get the first machines completed and work out a manufacturing deal with someone. Then they hope that the profits from selling additional machines will cover the loss of the original owners so they can get their machines.

If those profits never happen, i.e. they don't sell enough extra machines, then the original owners will have some form of subsidized purchase, the size of that subsidy ranging from $0 to the amount they already paid in.

It would be interesting to see how many machines they would have to sell to recoup the money from the original preorders.

You were basically saying "whats that smell?" while your hair was on fire with Predator, even willing to bet one of your games that you'd have your shiny new machine in a month.

I know you say you learned, but you can at least understand why people don't respect your opinion on this, right? Sometimes it makes sense to just lay low.

I've only posted in this thread? Nope, incorrect old chap, or should I say 'guy'.

I accept it's 2 fictional years not 4 fictional years to receive fictional MG, paid for with your monopoly fictional 'credits'.

Why personally attack me rather than address the points I make? i guess it would require you to fire up that third neurone, and possibly endanger your breathing reflex that needs the other two.

If part of the agreement states you can't sue John or Zidware, he is tying himself to him. You can't claim to be this wholly independent company when you put stuff like that in the agreement.

Wow can't believe I took as much time to read this as I just did.

My advice to Ice would be quit giving people advice on how to go about things and let them decide for themselves. I sure as hell wouldn't sign anything at this point and probably not ever. I could careless if he brought the sickest proto to the next pinball show. It's still just one machine.

That's why we need to see the license agreement. Did John negotiate this protection as part of the sales the license? Is that why the other deal fell through? Where is John going to do his consulting? In his current shop? How much is john being paid to consult?

Completely understand. I hope some people can also see that i have learned, know some of the people that were originally on the inside on this, and there is also reason to try helping others that are blinded by the money they have already paid. I know what it is like to be on that side unfortunately.

Thanks- appreciated.

I will say this. Bill seems to be a successful, wealthy guy. Successful, wealthy guys don't become successful and wealthy by throwing away money "for the good of" anything. That's how many lottery winners end up in financial trouble. Wealthy guys usually become that way from hard work and using money to make money. I'm sure Bill plans on eventually showing a profit on this move, even if it's not much of one. Nothing wrong with that, just be up front with how it's going to happen. The means may be a deal-breaker for people who currently don't have enough information to make an informed decision. They should look at the pig outside the poke.

Putting out the terms of the licensing agreement, firming up the final prices for the RAZA and AiW pins, and getting credible financials from John (i.e. tax returns and personal/company bank statements) would go a long way towards calming the waters. As others have said.

All the crap and bad feelings should be directed at John He is the the cause, poster boy, dude living in a fantasy world. He will never be able to show his face without finger pointing, snickering and ridicule
John will be shamed, should be shamed and not be able to look at himself in the mirror. There is no silver lining for John

This is a very good summary of the situation based on what I've read.

So regardless of what happens, it is still very much a gamble.

They will have to actually have the pins built and ready to ship before anyone with any common sense would put money towards one. That's going to take a ton of capitol, and just as importantly, manufacturing experience.

Even if the capitol is there, there are still an absolute ton of unknowns. Basically either JJP or Stern would have to manufacture the pins. What are the realistic chances of that happening? Owners want JPop completely excluded from this (and rightly so), so whose going to finish with the design?

Really, this situation is no different than me or any one of you pinheads having a lot of money and wanting to save the project, and having some experience in financing, but zero experience in running a pinball company (or any kind of manufacturing) and what it takes to get that done.

Just having the money and the desire to get it done is not enough.

That Zane D Smith attorney seems to be the closest, that I've seen anyway. He's the attorney I'll be using to sue Jpop.

I agree with you Hilton.

Don't attack Whysnow he hasn't stolen your money.

anybody breathing.

You owners should come up with your own agreement and have JPop and other company sign it. Yall should set the terms now.

We don't know anything. Zero transparency. For a million bucks of 'lost' money (but money nonetheless), I'd expect a bit more information and transparency from Pintasia, as would be usual for bankruptcy hearings. We need to see all the agreements, Jpop's accounts, EVERYTHING.

But once again, our amateur ill-informed status is being used to exploit us, the 'investors', and we are being pressurized to sign something quickly. Along with our desperation, of course. Boiler room tactics, ladies and gentlemen of the pinsidesphere. And hasn't the 'love of pinball' been used to leverage us, too? Easy to exploit altruism.

I've asked Pintasia 3 times (include a PM) to set up an FAQ thread to answer all these questions. If they don't, it says it all. Keep the marks ignorant.

Can you repost his info as I'm planning on joining this group.

Like I said, if John is involved moving forward then I'm not signing. John lost all his rights with the way he has handled things. He is toxic and continuing with him involved will only lead to regret.

Bill, do you really think you can work with John? I cannot imagine anyone can work with him. Cut him out and distance this new company away from anything John related.

I'm with Frolic on this one. No way I sign with John involved.

Worth mentioning that if the amount is under $10,000, you can file in small claims in Illinois. You don't need an attorney for that.

Also you can file a complaint with the Illinois Attorney General at the link below. They are surprisingly good at following up on things.

https://ccformsubmission.ilattorneygeneral.net/

I'm totally with you in your views. Details are:

Zane D. Smith & Associates, Ltd.
415 North LaSalle Street, Suite 501
Chicago, IL 60654
(312) 245-0031
(312) 245-0022 Fax
[email protected]

I'll be contacting the attorney again on Tuesday to take this forward. Zidware is toast, regardless of what we've been corn-fed this weekend. Jpop/Zidware will inevitably be rendered bankrupt, and hence this project is DEAD. When I s/w the legal assistant @ Zane D. Smith on Friday, they said they'd had many phone enquiries since Jpop's bizarre and incompetent email/new agreement, so there are many lawsuits pending. And the IRS are probably auditing too. So as I said a day ago, time to wake up and smell the coffee. I know it's painful

If jpop is at that show I hope everyone yells him off the stage and out of the room!

I hope there's a "the real story of MG" panel at expo this year...

I hope they do more than merely yell.

Simple as they raised the price of the pin to offset the initial deposits.

Has anyone here with skin in the game taken the letter to a lawyer and asked for some sound legal advice?
Good place to start.
Or you could just trust ice man.
He was so spot on with jpop, skit b, and spooky.

I can't imagine a world where having John at that show is a good idea.

Conversations with John are NOT evidence of anything. Believing John Popadiuk might be considered evidence of something unhealthy.

Civil law has many limitations as to how long you have to file a claim. DO NOT WAIT IF YOU HAVE NOT YET FILED A CLAIM.

Filing a claim now may only net pennies on the dollar, but is presently the best move. Thinking this present "deal" will happen is a moot point as the court will undo any transfer of assets.

I will be contacting them on Tuesday as well. This behavior will not stand. My fight is with John. Pintasia isn't covering Zidware's liabilities, so there is really no point in contacting them. They are not going to give me my money back. I want my money back. I'll sue him and get it, or I won't. Either way he is getting sued.

Just in case someone wants a idea... Fill a super soaker with piss... When u see him at a show squirt the shit out of him... Then u can at least say u pissed on him the way he did to us.

Southern Fried Gaming Expo since ill be there..