Wonder how much "for the love of pinball" has cost pinheads over the years?

One of the dumbest statements made here.

I'm getting all kinds of conflicting info about the "mystery" person, their intentions, etc.

I'll just say this:

This couldn't have been handled in a worse way. That a nuclear bomb today went off with so much reaction to BOTH John AND the "mystery" person, this is not being received as some charitable endeavor, even though apparently the intent is charity????

If there are missing pieces we don't know.... well... yeah, that is a problem and causing this reaction. Don't blame us for not throwing our hands in the air screaming "hallelujah!". This whole thing is messed up!

Ice - how is the investor risking over $1,000,000?

Once again the lack of transparency is killing this effort. Unless the mystery investor comes forward this doesn't stand a chance.

You are a donkey

Mods> when i get a thread eject because he whines that i called him a donkey, please make sure this donkey gets a nut punch on his way out also.

Keep in mind is was banned for ultimately using someones name as a verb. If you want to take the same action with this donkey that would be just.

Sometimes you're very level headed and sometimes you fly off the sanity wagon IMO. What is yet another person with no experience making a pinball machine, ASKING FOR MORE MONEY, going to do to magic up these machines? So Ice says toss more money in, this is a blessing?? What happens if THIS round goes tits-up? Should the people do it again with the next "secret" investor? If someone has a plan it's time to lay it out now. Only an idiot would give this effort more money not knowing any more details than have been presented.

For the "love of pinball", go ahead, proceed with the litigation. It's not about getting preoder $ back, it's about future pinheads not getting rooked for what would be a 4th time(losing count) on things like this. Otherwise, it's just going to happen again. Look, new shiny pin, gimme preorder $, have "problems", money never gets refunded.

If somehow it all comes crashing down and the 3 MG prototypes are found, don't auction them off or try to sell them. There would be fighting on who deserves it("I paid more preorder money!") and people trying to buy them out underneath each other. I would say dismantle it and let the parts sit in a warehouse like the Ark of the Covenant.

You don't see how this is F'd up for everyone outside the Jpop-bubble's POV?

-Mystery investor saving the day
-Sign in 4 days, take the deal & promise not to sue or GET NOTHING
-Change your RAZA order to MGLE & pay more
-Want RAZA? Wait 4 years.

This is a horrible deal. If someone is saving this project "for the love of pinball", this is not the way to do it.

Ice - you are a lawyer - would you ever advise a client to sign an agreement to purchase something from an unknown entity at an unknown price to be delivered at an unknown time that puts no duty on the unknown entity and absolves the responsible party from all liability?

Better yet,start taking action right NOW to go after jpop.

Show up at his memorial dya bbq for all I care, just do something. find a lawyer, open a case on your own, try and file a chargeback. Do it all NOW! ASAP

This thing is beyond dead and every day sooner you react can do nothing but improve your already small chances of getting anything back.

Dude, as toxic as this is? Is there ANY reality to people buying 199 $16,000 pinball machines!?!??!?! Are you F'ing mad!?!? The ONLY way this works is if EVERY RAZA buyer switches over (125?) + 16 MG buyers...that's 141...you really think 58 MORE people are gonna sign on? ...and that's assuming all the RAZA's switch over. This deal is stupid. It's unrealistic. It's insulting.

MYSTERY INVESTOR: SHOW YOURSELF...and fix the deal....FOR THE LOVE OF PINBALL.

Ok, I'll bite. How is this investor risking over $1mm? What am I missing here? He/she is not buying any of the assets nor assuming any of the liabilities, correct? I can't imagine the IP costing anything. Buying the customer base? (sure, done all the time when there is a revenue flow but that is not the case and it's not like one couldn't capture that same base for a few bucks). So where is the $1mm being spent? Second, I assume if he/she is risking the $, they expect a return on their investment. If not, if they are simply a philanthropist, why not just make a gift to everyone who has paid a deposit to make them somewhat whole?

Now let me be clear, I have nothing against the 'investor'. In fact, I don't understand the anger towards them. Seems like they see an opportunity to make a few $ and have priced the games accordingly (including the need to cover any credits for previous payments to JPOP. Again, I don't blame them for doing that. If I take my car to a mechanic and they don't fix it so I have to take it to another garage, it's not like the new mechanic is going to give my a discount because I wasted $500 with the first mechanic)

Ice, maybe you are too "inside" and know a lot more about this deal than others. Try and view it from how its been presented, especially in light of the lies and deceit we've been subject to this entire time.

If they're auctioned off, how much money would someone pay for those pinball related ideas and papermache prototypes?
10k, 20k $$$?
That money would be long gone before even considering doing some refunds...

Really, after it was clear that Jpop can't finish this on his own, everybody should have known that ANY possible solution or outcome would screw over the prepay folks.
The money is gone and thus Zidware not able to refund nor build a damn machine.
Even winning a lawsuit would not change that - so all that's left to gain would be revenge on Jpop, if that's what people after.

And no one, not even the biggest pinball enthusiast, steps up and takes over a more than shaky business opportunity like this, just to build and deliver pins for "free" for some poor souls that gave their money to the wrong man.

Unless the investor has access to the stern assembly line I say casino odds on getting a game through mystery savior.

Ice, reveal who this "investor" is. Why is it secret? It doesn't make sense. And how do you know who it is? I don't want a $16000 MG with 199 units made. I don't want half value towards and unlimited MG model at $10000. I don't want 1/2 credit towards the same machine I bought in for. I want out or the machine I bought into at the price I bought into it at. If that can't happen I want Zidware and John to burn.

Other owners please contact me if you want to group up for a group suing of Zidware/John. I don't think we can do it individually.

StephenP, if you really helped write this letter to customers then you are a real dirtbag too.

I don't know much about this situation but I'm pretty sure paying more money towards this project would be the definition of throwing good money after bad.

What's wrong is I bought RAZA. I don't want MG, I think it looks like a turd of a game. No interest at any price, and I damn sure am not going to pony up another $10k for it. So my options are pay an ADDITIONAL $10k for a game I don't want, or wait 4-5 MORE YEARS for a game that they admit they might not even make (and if they do, the price is unknown and there is no commitment how much credit I'll get for my deposit).

Head or gut? Forgive me if I'm not jumping for joy.

You said this about you getting involved about 50 pages ago and here we are. Deja vu...

You're acting like there's only two options. Just walking away is the third and best IMO.

I've got all your details, right here.

I don't expect that an auction would ever make the creditors whole. I was just making the point that there's still assets that have (a yet undetermined) value. Hell, Stern or PPS or Circus Maximus or anyone could buy the assets cheap in bankruptcy and have a jump start on the design of a new game.

I have opened an new thread, not to compete in any way with this one (as it is really interesting). The purpose of the newer thread is simply to find out what other customers of Zidware are thinking f doing regarding this new situation. Please only contribute to the new thread if you HAVE purchased or deposited on a game and want to know what the other customers are thinking of doing.

I dont want this to cause any confusion, but I do want to know what percentage of buyers are willing to invest more money in the possibility that they will eventually receive a game.

Thanks!
Rob

Ice - you ducked the question and said you hope more info comes out. You have to admit that, without your insider information, you could not advise a client to sign what has been presented.

If the letter today was an announcement that $1 MILLION was being invested in JPOP and games will be built, there would be no onslaught of litigation. There would be hope and a whole new level of patience. Plus, there would probably be a line of people wanting to buy these games, ONCE THEY ARE PRODUCED.

It's the whole "hocus-pocus" of sign this, commit to that, hurry up, or lose it all, that leaves a pit in my stomach.

We already have an owners group on FB for that.

I assume that they have not filed for bankruptcy (yet).

In what country,on what planet,in which universe does 199 MG's get made?

What factory,I mean,theres only 2,(Stern or JJP) is gonna tool up for a proprietary game with nonstandard cab and glass?

If you have a million at risk, why do it THIS way? It just doesn't make any sense to jump into this thing alienating people and pissing off everyone.

Personally, I think my options were more reasonable for the risk taking investor.

Once again:

A.) Refund everyone, make the game you believe in, sell it. Clean slate, all forgiven, if the game is awesome (it must be if he's taking this on), it will sell.

B.) Automatically transfer all RAZAs to MG without any extra cost or 50c on the $ bullshit. It may not make everyone happy but that type of goodwill can go a long way in this situation.

Oh, and NO MORE F*CKING SECRETS!

I still don't see why walking away would be a better option than just checking the box that says you'll buy RAZA or AIW when it's ready at 1. You can always walk away later. That's what I'm doing, there's a better chance the new guy makes RAZA than JPOP ever had.

I dunno man, this whole thing has a really familiar vibe to it.... the only difference is that doors number 1, 2, and 3 all have a goat behind them...

lmad.JPG

This new deal should have never been delivered by John, in John's words. This is DOA because of it. "Removing" him should have meant the new owner deliver whatever news of the deal.

Doug,

I respect the hell out of you, but surely you can see why everyone is upset. People just spent the last several years being lied to and kept in the dark by John. We now find out that John is indeed broke, and all our money is gone. Then, these new "investors" come along and reveal absolutely no details about their plan to save the company. To make matters worse, they do not even tell us who they are or why we should take them seriously. All we get is a contract that we are supposed to sign asking us for more money. Of course people are going to be pissed off.

What I don't understand is there is no consistent equity for those with money on RAZA

Let's assume I was paid in full at 10k and a friend is in for 1k and the new standard MG is going to cost 12k.

I have to kick in another 7k or 17k total for the std version
My friend owes 11.5k more for a total cost of 12.5k.

WTF is this shit. Who came up with this plan. Let's kick our most loyal customers in the nuts a few more times

I feel bad for all you guys. Get out now

Because you are signing away your rights to litigation AND getting your hopes up all over again.

The idea is too dumb to be believed.

I will personally happily take all of the Zidware assets and assume none of the liabilities. I'll even sell you a MG 4 years from now for $10,000, assuming things go well. This is what the "investor" is offering (plus apparently paying JPop as a consultant.)

I have no skin in the game but claiming it's this or nothing is absurd. The bankruptcy court isn't going to let Zidware give away everything moments before they declare and John is just making himself more vulnerable to personal liability if he thinks that's a good idea.

I'm not part of that...how do I get in on that?

Because JPOP walks if you sign. I'd rather he burn with bankruptcy.

No, it isn't. I just learned of this particular letter with the rest of you. I'm not directly involved in this current proposal; I've just been generally encouraging John to find a way to get the games made and shipped to customers.

It's "StevenP" and no, I did not as noted above. But thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt with the "if" above. Seriously, I am not privy to details of this arrangement. It came as a surprise to me too. Sorry, but I'm not the bad guy here--just the patent lawyer. (OK, Lawdawg!)