DP had been working on TBL for at least a year before any announcements or taking any money. Zero rumors. They took the whole pinball industry by surprise.

The problem with that is - what competitors?

There's Stern and JJP, and we all know how cheap Stern is so they won't be stealing anything. JJP hasn't even released their second game yet.

Anyway, forgetting that - the solution is to *actually produce something in a timely manner*. And if you don't want to reveal stuff, *don't take pre-orders*. He could have easily never released a single photo or anything by just coming out with a finished game.

He chose to take pre-order money, so he *chose* this open model. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

See, but that's the risk in keeping things quiet. You think anyone else is going to make a pin with a bowling alley toy under the playfield now?

You show your game and you put your stamp on it. Everyone knows that's the Jpop idea. Rip it off and get shredded and laughed at.

Keep it quiet and someone rolls up, Lebowski style, and just steals all the air out of the room. Look at JJP. Jack puts the book toy on The Hobbit, and it's just a placeholder for the "real surprise". (This is public info now, so okay to share.) He could have saved himself a lot of heartburn and having his head torn off if he hadn't tried to be so secretive and sneaky.

I think sunlight is a better protection than shadows in a small hobby.

Hmm... I find that quote quite interesting.

- Gerry

Was this supposed to be a dig at FAST, or Jpop, or even Mike? If it's not relevant to the discussion at hand.....perhaps might want to consider explaining that comment. If it IS......perhaps might want to consider explaining that comment. Either way, that's a pretty ambiguous statement that could be taken many different ways, and pretty much none of them good.

*Edit* Oh, was MG/BHZA supposed to use P3 boards at some point?

I was pondering the secrecy, under "what's the worst that can happen".

Say, jpop showed an unfinished game at expo this month. In the game was a cool as hell toy, a robotic dog that walks across the playfield, picks up the ball with a magnet, and drops it into a hole somewhere (I made this up).

The pinball world goes nuts, talks about how jpop showed the Hobbit what a REAL interactive toy is, people are beating down his door to get on the waiting list.

Flash forward a year... Stern releases a new game, in it a dinosaur walks across the playfield, picks up the ball with a magnet and puts it in a hole somewhere. The online world erupts about how this ripped off jpop straight up.... BUT..... jpop's games are already long spoken for, and everyone knows and saw he had this toy first.

I mean, this is the worst-case-scenario, and the worst thing is the jpop owners all got to see some cool shit and were pumped up along the ride.

I don't know what that implies either, but the man is a sharp with his designs, losing great ideas to hacks must hurt. I just saw his lit up pop bumper....Wow.

See my above analogy, the p-roc will always be recognized as the first. Maximum respect, Gerry.

That's what I mean by the quote "what's behind me is not important"

Meaning John claims a toy or idea by showing it.

Let's say Skit-B says they are going to do UV paint, that's his idea. Now if someone else does it, ok but it's from Skit-B's idea list.

Plus the other side of that is that the game should be built in a timely manner, not like Predator or RAZA which have been germinating for 30-40 months, it's time to produce a game if that's what you intend to do.

If John wants to be an idea factory that's one thing, but he billed and sold himself as a pinball maker it's time to make something.

I hear ya, but it never stopped Joe Kaminkow back in D.E. days from ripping all the best Williams designs.

History (and the Top 100) shows how well that worked out.

No one thinks "Data East" and "Innovation" in the same sentence, even though they did some really cool shit like the blinders on Tommy, or the Bullwinkle backglass animation. So, by stealing from WMS they only made themselves look bad.

And sold a ton of pinballs....and then became Stern.

But if someone else does it and makes it work I would still applaud the other company. Sorry, had to be said.

First they *went out of business* and were bought out by Sega. Then Sega *went out of business* and became Stern.

So maybe it's payback time for DE. I here JJP may be looking for a better Smaug:

image-17.jpg

Stealing ideas is the truth in pinball and many industries, let's not kid ourselves - everyone borrows.

Guns n Roses from TAF (magnet), Apple ipod from Diamond Rio and Zune from Ipod, Ipad by Samsung/Motorola/RIM/etc, Vanilla Ice from Queen, and going further back Galileo telescope from Hans Lippershey, Alexander Graham Bell stole the telephone from Antonio Meucci, and even Thomas Edison stole the light bulb idea from a guy he dismissed with the idea but after he died bought the patent from his poor wife.

Point - it's gonna happen.

The only thing new in this world is the history we don't already know. I stole that quote too.

What makes that quote interesting?

Well, there's more to the industry than just pinball machine manufacturers. A nice lighting effect, some new rubber design, a different way to do power, who knows.

EDIT: I should have expanded and actually said, "There are the modders". You could decide to use some cool kind of rubber or something and next thing you know "CoolKindOfPinballRubbers.com" sprouts up.

Hate to keep banging away at this but you're only partially correct the D.E. Pinball division was sold to Sega, and Sega sold to Stern...Also if I read correctly Sega never went out of business.

Im glad you got a response from Jpop, i really hope the Game gets finished and delivered in a timely Fashion. Remember those that used JJP as dropping the ball on Timelines, which he did. I am pretty sure Jpop had Timelines as well that he missed, and there was also the silent treatment it sounded like from him to. At the end of the day nobody is perfect but you gotta talk to your customers, not flip out, not have them scared of you. It is a two way street both parties need each other and need to reflect that towards each other.

In regards to Frolic's comment above, I agree with you 100% about showing something cool off and then getting copied there is nothing wrong with that it happens all day long every day its good for companies it keeps them improving and moving forward. We have all heard the quote " copying someone is the sincerest form of flattery"

Once again best of luck to Jpop and all the Buyers If and When it comes out I am sure it will be a work of art.

Joe(acejedi)

Sega was going to close it down and Gary arranged a buyout. That's when Kamikow went off to do slots.

So technically it didn't go out of business on paper, but if Gary hadn't stepped up it would have closed.

John knows all about the idea of marking your ideas in public. In the interview linked below, John explains why he announced AiW as early as he did. To paraphrase: it was to mark it to the other designers that the idea is taken.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/exclusive-john-popadiuk-jr-interview-from-9192014

So I'm thinking that there are more important reasons as to why he's so secretive. The simplest explanation is usually the right one, and that he just keeps changing and tweaking to such a high degree that he doesn't want to officialize what he might insecurely feel sucks. He showed the translite art for a second and quickly hid it from sight, and that wasn't because he feared someone will steal the style. This is John, he's insecure about his work just like Kubrick was. This is well known about perfectionists, they quickly feel ashamed when they come out with a better idea in their heads, no matter how petty the issue might be.

He won't change.

Great info! now can you explain what compels a person to analyze another person over and over again on a pinball forum? What type of personality disorder is that?
image-905.jpg

Eric, in the interest of transparency, I suggest that you disclose generally, what you contributed to Jpops projects...

It's called Pinsideritis.

LOL, whose interest does that serve?

... in the interest of me wanting to know all about it, please violate your NDA for no benefit to yourself.

I would violate the nda but then I might get sued and he would have the money to complete mg

Di*khead... No. You missed the point (not surprised) which was to say that for those defendng JPop, they should explain that there is/was more to the story.

It's Dr. Di*khead, if you please. After eight years at D.H.U. I deserve at least that.

Couldnt you read the jpop TBL line though as "don't show it till you've got real product" which is more of the same ? I.e., shouldn't of even shown the cabinets / translite? Wondering if there would be more/less outrage if he had done nothing this year at expo?

Definitely! At the end of the day, customers only care about the end result, not the company responsible for it.

The image that was created by those empty cabs just symbolized vaporware. It was a bad marketing move. If he never went to expo, buyers would not have worried as much as they did.

Yeah I think I agree

Taking notes, this is what I have so far.
Dear John,
1: How many are you making?
2: When can I come to your shop and play a finished game or proto?
3: Who is building it?
4: How many different versions of artwork are there and can you send me pictures of the actual finished versions you will be using of cabinet-playfield and backglass after 3 years? (I did sign your NDA)
5: Can you supply me in writing with an updated completion date and time schedule so I can calculate how much interest I am losing on my money and I can check statistics to see if I will live long enough.

Pondering the secrecy aspect some more....

Considering that all his titles are extremely limited production. There really is no reason to not show stuff. It would be one thing if he had a factory, and hopes to sell thousands of machines, then you want every competitive advantage.

This information vacuum has created the situation where owners who want to get out can't be replaced because all the outside world has seen is the "empty cabinet" which is the ultimate metaphor of how this project is perceived.

Even with his patents, patents need to be enforced. So he has a patent, whoopdee do, prepare to spend thousands and years in court defending it. They seem pointless when they've slowed down the production, nothing can be shown until patents granted, so he's sitting on all kinds of stuff he won't show. In this case, the cure is worse than the disease.

Folic, I disagree with a few points.

Look at the last idea shown on the blog, lighting trick that hasn't been done before no way to patient it but will surely be duplicated in another pin after shown (note the blog shows the trick but not the true location) I'd bet a hefty dollar on it. There are several of these ideas sprinkled through out the games IMO. Some are complex toys others are simpler but really unique ideas, never before done but also probably impossible to patient.

When he started he sold all 124 spots of just the idea...
I really believe once MG is shown nobody will have a problem selling A RAZA spot.
Nobody likes digging a ditch, till the pool gets put in. Paraphrased JPOP quote.

Get off your computer!
As critical as you are, I would highly suggest you take a flight to Chicago and see for yourself.
Toronto isn't too far away and if you can pre order multiple NIB pins the flight costs shouldn't break your bank... If you go and are disappointed then I'll cover dinner for you plus a guest at Gilt in Chicago (that place was hands down best meal of my last trip) just pm me the bill.
Toronto looks close you could be gone less than 24 hours and be back no problem.

Direct Rt airfare $224.00
Expedia
Less than an hour in the air too
Leave in the am and you'd be home by the evening

man.. you guys have it good with your air fare rates. That would barely cover the taxes from Canada. (granted, we can just drive to the border and fly out from the nearest US airport).

**

Just checked. Cheapest return flight to/from Toronto is $870.21

That quote was Toronto to chicago

That doesn't make sense, I just checked Expedia.ca ... maybe the .ca and .com are offering two different prices? That would suck

My bad it's 1 hour 45min I didn't factor the time change

I'm not cancelling my order, don't want out, I know the game will be great... when I get it (when was that again?). I have serious issues with the biz aspect of it, the lack of accountability, the lack of deadlines, the lack of transparency, the fact that there are other people that have posted in this thread that would like their money back and can't get it.

I could go on the Wonka tour, but those things still need to be addressed.

I run my own biz, it does well, it gives me money for things like pinball. If I ran my business like this I would be OUT of business, so yeah, I'm going to be critical.

What was your dates?
The $224 was Jan
For Nov it increased to about $380 total

ahh.. yeah I was checking for tomorrow. Not a bad price for January though, wow!

that is just how I interpret what he wrote.
He thought he was sharing 'progress', to help people feel better, and get more on board.

Instead, the community sees the jpop glass half full,

while TBL customers are drinking Caucasians in the VIP room, less then 2 years after concept.

Is there a Hitler video on MG yet?

I have been in on TBL from day one and I am still down with JPOP, so I guess I am drinking the Kool-Aid and the Caucaisians

This.

You can't charge this kind of money and run way past deadlines and not provide real information. Especially with a NDA.

This whole project could change if he changes a little bit.

It is interesting to consider that if TBL wasn't at Expo, the current JPop owners would all be just fine. Thank God it was there and caused such a ruckus. It has given him a push to try to move forward.

I think the saddest thing about all of this is that if JPop brought his games in their current state to Expo, it would have been the other way around. Minds would have been blown and many of the other competitors would be saying a collective "Oh shit..." JPop could single-handedly elevate the state of pinball and his company overnight to a new level right now with a couple pictures and a video. If we all saw a nearly complete Magic Girl with all of the new design innovations owners keep hinting at, he would be the king of the hill. Instead everybody is angry and disappointed and trolls are fanning the flames.

He doesn't want people to steal his ideas. How quickly he forgets everything on a pinball playfield other than pins/nails driven into a piece of wood WAS innovation at one time or another. Playfield plastics, pop bumpers, drop targets, lights, lit inserts, rails, ramps, mini playfields, magnets, etc. were all invented by somebody. Even flippers !! Every idea in pinball gets re-used, but one new idea does not a great pinball machine make. Can you imagine if some asshole patented flippers, ramps or pop bumpers and didn't let other people use them?

At some point he has to show the game no matter what. It feels like he never wants to show anybody anything. He is in a bubble. I hate even voicing an opinion about this because I didn't buy a game. I just want him to get the credit and fanfare he deserves, rather than ugliness on a forum. From my point of view, 3+ years of dead silence is just deafening. We all want you to succeed JPop! Put up those pictures and videos and blow our fucking minds before somebody else beats you to it again!