Grunt programmers that can only follow instructions cost $80k + benefits. Real architects/developers cost quite a bit more. I think John would need to lay out around $130k + benefits to get someone that could handle both the SDLC management and the actual coding.

"Pdxmonkey said:
2.) I dunno about your case but John calls me back within 24 hours everytime if he doesn't pick up when I call. Perhaps he didn't care for your tone of questions?"

This REALLY bothered me because John was returning my phone calls up to a few weeks ago. When I started asking him tough questions and demanding answers and interrupting him when he tried to change the subject, that's when he must have put me on his blacklist. In his book, I obviously went from fan-boy to disgruntled customer and was immediately put on his blocked callers list. Dear John, no matter how this thing winds up, whether these games ever game made, how you are perceived in the future of pinball history, I personally think your a fucking loser, a big time fucking loser.

There's only ~100 zidware customers total, and John has blocked most of them.

besides all the other nonsense about not delivering pins, I know making pinball machines is hard.

But this is disgraceful. The customers are the reason why these projects exist. John would be less zero if it wasn't for the people who backed him on these projects. They deserve to be treated with respect.

maybe that's what he meant by nda... non-disclosure means non-disclosure, and that applies to everybody equally - even John. rest assured, the harder I laugh and make jokes here, is really only to mask the pain and absurdity of the situation. No disrespect is directed at buyers. I was almost in on RAZA late in the game when the timetables had stretched, people were in the dark and a few were visiting the shop and letting us know how awesome things were. I considered scooping up a vacated spot (had I done that, maybe one of you would have got some money back ). Spoke to John a few times by phone, but based on all available info, decided he was way too disorganized and believed best case was a great game delivered in 10 years. Too much risk for the situation, but still feel lucky avoiding this one. Sorry it is going this way. Maybe we'll get to see some ramps in a few days guys, right?

I had mentioned this idea to John a couple weeks ago and it sounds like he has/is at least considering this option. I like the idea as MG is closest to being done, put RAZA & AIW on the shelf for now and everyone gets MG for $10k then refund the original 17 owners so that they get there games for 10k as well.

How would that work? I am assuming you would have to work out refunding the original MG owners to the tune of $6k each because there is no way you are converting 200+ RAZA and AIW spots to $16k games those people didn't ask for. Where's the money for that? that's an additional $100k on top of the money needed to code the game, pay vendors he is delinquent on, and to cover the mfg costs for all these games. Even if the math works out, and somehow the first 5 years of john's playtime could be fit into the category of game profit, someone else would have to finance this, because I don't see you pulling it off with more patient financing from your customer's outstanding payments.

Still, it's the best idea I have heard yet. I think most RAZA and AIW buyers would take a MG instead of nothing. I'm sure John's plan would be to use this plan to vindicate himself, and to try to start again with RAZA and AIW, but unless someone else finances them, good luck with that.

If JPop would consider dropping RAZA & AIW, and focus on MG and produce say 150-200...

I think most us us would agree to the switch. I would buy in (MG) at $10-$11k (I'm already in RAZA at $4,750)

You have zero hope of working with him. In between 20 posts insulting him you post one wanting to help? And you even insult him after saying that above. You do not have near the right temperament to solve anything with John. Let it go.

Sounds like a reasonable proposal as long as early MG buyers get the financial incentive given above - reimbursement down to the 10k price -. I would be far less enthusiastic if priced higher. $10k is already pushing it and the "exclusive" factor is far weaker with 150+ units produced than with 25.

The difference in numbers between MG and RAZA pre orders makes this possible. Even better, this does not prevent Zidware from producing later RAZA once all MG orders are filled. And make sure John understands this as it will be easier for him to postpone RAZA than to cancel it completely.

Who knows? With videos of a flipping game and an agreement with a manufacturer you might actually see new potential customers like me interested... once the first pins ship. Magic Girl's artwork is absolutely stunning and I would love to see this project successful.

I'd maybe buy a MG in that case if they were closer to $11-12k and were actually being built and played well.

Larger run is actually better more chance for mods and better code, better aftermarket support.

I hate to agree with Chessiv but I do. I don't think John takes criticism well, he probably thinks Ice is a 'bad man'.

twilight-zone-billy-mumy-go.jpg

Ice is a bad man, the worst.

John hasn't shown the ability to work with anyone. We're probably deluding ourselves with these "what ifs". Likely this will continue to play out the way it has been until a real legal action is taken or forced bankruptcy.

I suspect the games have too much work to go for someone else to want to pay to see them completed (investors) so likely a bankruptcy and whatever is in the shop gets sold out as memorabilia. The incomplete prototypes will probably disappear into the night before this all happens.

+1. Unless proven otherwise, this recent planning of options (which I consider as top notch btw) is akin to spending time arranging deck furniture on the Titanic right before ... oh you know what happens.

Iceman isn't the problem here. The only people that John apparently CAN work with regarding resolution of these issues are sycophants. Unfortunately, sycophants don't tell him what he actually NEEDS to hear, so he continues to spin his wheels, and his projects remain stuck in development hell.

He's not the problem but he's also not the solution.

I'm just confused with how the $15k-$17k price tag is being justified? I already see what you get with a new JJP Ruby Red WOZ (or Hobbit LE / Smaug SE) for $9k, a Stern LE at nearly $8k, and a MMR LE at $8k. Where in Magic Girl and RAZA is the other $5k-$8K in parts and features?

I respectfully disagree. Ice has some great ideas and is the type of person that gets things done. He is also somewhat of a bull in a china shop, what needs to happen is someone like Ice needs to work with one of the people in John's inner inner circle but not with John directly.

Heck, it wasn't that long ago Ice was even suggesting maybe he would finance the build out of the prototypes...how many people would even consider that?

You're paying for rarity...for "limited print art". It's not about the BOM. With LEs, it's never about the BOM.

Originally it was exclusivity...even more exclusivity than BBB.

Where's the value?
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=ZktOVcWlEI-wyATLmIDIBw&url=http://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DBQ-V5qvMow4&ved=0EI84MABYAg&usg=AFQjCNHxNJmO1THn5faULz5WibqtbnG51w&sig2=zClgdDSRBsu-S4ZxWicsFw

Everybody's chasing the next Big Bang Bar remake. They can say pinball "isn't an investment" til the cows come home, but that possible reward is why they "stick around" with projects well past the point of no return disaster (ahem PREDATOR)

nobody has the right temperament to work with john apparently...

Was because these were super limited games. Tron LE is not worth $9k except there was only 400 made

People thought if only 26 MG were made than likely in time it might become $20k game like BBB.

There are comic books selling for $2M but cost less than 5c to print.

On a side note, a week ago, this thread was 600+ posts behind the Predator update thread. Now? Less than 100...

This all sounds reasonable were John not still firmly in control. The problem with any solution is getting the leopard to change his spots. This project has little or no chance until John loses control via the bankruptcy court. The upside is that this may not be far off.

BBB was in my head when i pre-ordered, but not as a flipper, but knowing I'd never have a chance to own the game otherwise at secondary market prices.

I also wanted a "next gen" pinball machine. Unfortunately these games if released in 2016 or later won't be that revolutionary. They would have been show stoppers when released on time in 2013, but I suspect if Magic Girl shows up at expo this year, it will be getting a lot of "mehs" compared to some of the big titles showing up there.

It will pass Predator soon. Monday or Tuesday at the latest.

I get your passion for wanting your game but is it really worth the continued years of frustration at this point? All of the options you've presented so far are seriously flawed. John is not providing accounting information because it's clearly very bad. Have I missed someone actually getting a refund that has been requesting one repeatedly? Major red flag. I think pre-order folks are wasting their own time (and sanity) at this point if they're not pursuing legal avenues for recovering their money. Plain and simple. Otherwise, you'll still be having this exact same conversation a year from now.

Maybe a record number of code updates?

I kidd, I kidd.....

2c9cb67.jpg

I agree kissing John's ass won't accomplish anything. Likewise how is openly insulting him constantly going to accomplish one thing? How is that positive at all? Realistic, tough conversations are certainly appropriate. Constant insults and bravado will get no one anywhere. Makes for good drama but that's about it.

I'm obviously not a psychologist or anything but this is starting to seem more and more like mental illness. That would explain a lot. Like the disconnect from reality we've all noticed recently.

Must have taken a loan out to build the tooling for the ramps lol

vacuum forming is SO cheap, especially low quantity as he's doing. If you have a 3d model you can print a positive, send it to any of the local chicagoland vacuum forming vendors, and get ramps for just a few bucks a piece.

Might want to remove that nose plug.

So... now we're waiting till next month for the ramps to show up. Not sure what will change then, other than the paper ramps will be replaced. The bigger issues all still need to be addressed. And John is still ignoring his customers.

Don't worry, he'll show all of you in 10 years when he reveals the finished game at Expo for 5 minutes - no photos allowed.

How old is John? Is his expected life span going to extend beyond Magic Girl? Unless he's got celestial connections beyond a couple of doobies, I'm not sure I can ever expect to see ramps on RAZA, much less get my hands on the game.

Sorry to chime in and not be an owner (several times close and spoken with him personally) BUT I just don't see this being resolved until he actually is threatened with jail time or being sued for his personal assets... THEN.. he would turn over whatever worth/less assets he has for Stern to actually produce.. JPOP obviously just can't ever get his sh(# together to even come close to producing an actual game...

Artwork on MG does look great...as a concept... have Stern like a vulture seize the assets... push JPOP aside and finish the game with an experienced production/code team..I would be a buyer then..

He already approached Stern and they said "go away".

Because John won't show anyone what the financial situation is, I think the only way you can say for certain that it can be fixed is if you assume the worst case scenario that all the money he has taken so far is gone, and from there you can still see a viable way to build the games. Any path that requires some of the money already collected will fail because he won't even tell you how much you have to work with, much less give any of it up if there is any left.

My guess is that, based on various reports from people here abut how much they are paid up on RAZA, at best you have about ~$4-5k per person left, so about $500k. Let's be generous and say all the AIW spots still owe The full $10k each, so $1m. $1.5m seems like a lot, but that's $6k per game at 250 games (and that is with generous assumptions about outstanding payments owed). It's hard to make regular games in well run pinball companies for 6k these days, much more so for complicated games with all this baggage and so many completely custom parts.

Going with the best idea on the table, converting everyone to MG, you first have to spend ~$100-$150k refunding $16k buyers back to the $10k price point, another ~$100k for a programmer, $??? For an animator for the screen graphics (this is my field, but I don't know the specs of what is needed so I can't price it), $??? for making JPOP'd Vendors whole, $??? For finishing the preproduction prototype to manufacturing specs, $??? For pre-manufacturing set-up and process training for your manufacturing partner, $??? For the BOM for ~225 games, $??? For your project manager, $??? For contingency and overages, and $??? For the mfg fees from your manufacturing partner.

I am assuming the fast guys filled in a lot of those question marks when they were trying to put together a plan, but I fail to see how any plan could work with the numbers we do know to even build out one machine, much less all three machines. Reasonable assumptions about all those numbers start to exceed $6k per machine real fast. If all the plans at this point worked on paper because they assumed John had x amount of money left, and would willingly hand it over, then I don't think those were very realistic. Unless I missed something and someone somewhere actually got some verification about how much money was left, and any real cooperation from John.

Yeah, I think that's where we're at... nothing makes sense on paper as a business.

I think Ben guessed the BOM at $6k/game, which is probably a fair guess, and may very well be low. Then you look at the work that is still left to do.

I don't invest in businesses without business plans. I don't know how anyone would invest in John if he can't provide numbers and a road map to success.

My first rule for business investment is "Is there a strong demand for this product or service?" and unfortunately for just about everything pinball related, that answer is "no", which has stopped me from getting involved in any pinball business. Let alone something set up as a zidware with extremely high costs and extremely limited revenues and extreme risk for my money.

Any investor will judge things the exact same way. The only "easy" money was by crowd funding and getting people to send money in who don't have the same criteria and had a desire to see the final product. There was no need for a regular investor, he had sidestepped that. Raising $1M is a big deal.

John unfortunately screwed that all up.