With all this talk I hope jpop revealed a working game next week to show his funders its coming...

"Where's the game?"

About two month ago, when I was in England, I bumped into the guy whose name used to be on the zombie game. I talked to him about pinball machines in general and his collaboration with JPOP. He said it was a pleasure to work with him and he really enjoyed it. As this guy is a freelancer he started working also for another pinball manufacturer and he said because of that JPOP ended the collaboration.
If I look at all the video this guy posted (live sessions with him and JPOP building cardboard playfields and mechs) the project went along very well. After they split not much happened anymore ...at least not in public.
I think JPOP is a brilliant mind which has great ideas and good designs but he needs people to assist him in implementing his ideas to material. He needs someone besides him to push him to get forward and stop him from fiddling around with small details which does not help to get a finished product put together.
The guy I talked to said he really hopes there will be something coming from JPOP ...but he's not very confident right now (status 2 months ago).
I think JPOP really needs help. Someone who manages him maybe?.
He does not have the WMS people around him which helped him to end a project.
However, I still hope I will ever see one of his projects in real. Everything which came from him was special ...and I liked it a lot. Let's hope there will be more special stuff to come from him.
And of what I read here he may realize that he needs assistance. And maybe he will get back to the other guy I talked to to ask for help? Well... we will see! Good luck John!

_{Post edited by cyber: there were some typos ...maybe there are still some left}

I'm assuming the "other guy" is Ben Heck?

Bingo. Ya Ben was the guy in the translight originally

I had to laugh when I saw that post defending him talking about "good looking the transformer is".

Seriously? How much of a stretch to your own credibility do you have to make to talk up how the transformer looks?

3 years in and the transformer - which looks like the standard one you get from Altek - is your go-to feature?

Another thing I don't get - why didn't anyone at the "reveal" stand up and ask WTF? Or is everyone scared of him?

John would be all like :

image-462.jpg

Well, the truth is, we ARE a bit afraid of him, because in the past when this has flared up, he did not handle it well. So we backed off.

But here we are a year later from the infamous "crickets" blog post, and he did promise to write a letter outlining what he did in 2013, but that never materialized.

I made that crickets post and was really unprepared for how pissed John was over it. I really didn't mean anything by it except the blog had been quiet for a bit. I actually emailed John about the whole thing but never heard back from him.

I forgot about that...yeah that was ugly then it had to turn into an apology-fest to get things back on track. At one point slapshot confronted him about giving a date or revising the timeline schedule and that got ugly too. A few days later we got a "I need to work on that" and the timeline never materialized either. It's definitely an eggshell situation because we all have a lot of skin in the game and if you say the wrong thing...

Please elaborate.

Can understand the eggshells... but at the same time he can't just take your money cause he's pissed off. So, at worse he could kick you out by refunding your money. Maybe as you guys get fired up, this becomes more an acceptable risk of a result if it came to that?

Talk about night and day in personalities when it comes to the 'get ish done' factor.

I follow JPOP on FB and he put out some really cool tid bits. I really want these games to be awesome and think he has the ability to do that. I also think he has the habit of getting caught up in the romance of evolving a new idea. There needs to be work towards the finish line as well.

I'm a designer, I know that you have to tweak things to make them look nice and work well. I also know that if I just sit at my computer changing the model around, or testing the latest aspect, I'll never make any money.

I didn't know there was an expectation of a big reveal at Expo, and if that is what was presented, I would be pretty let down. Best of luck to everyone. I might be able to play one of the 3 designs at some point, if I'm lucky.

I don't want a letters of the past, I want pictures of the future!

What others on here aren't realizing is RAZA was never a dedicated zombie pin. From day one, it was a nod towards 50's sci-fi "B" movies. It always was going to have aliens, zombies and hot chicks in the game.

There's no refunds...

Ouch

I get that.. I was responding to the people that said in the past, when they've confronted JPOP he freaked out and so people are hesitant to ruffle his feathers again. Was just suggesting that the consequences of pissing him off couldn't be that bad.. it's not like he can legally take your money, and kick you out with no product. If he wanted to kick you out, he'd have to give you your money back is all.

This video from the Cointaker youtube page, which has an upload date of 2/19/12, show that it was to be B-movie based and not a gory zombie pin. It also briefly shows the art style at the end.

Wow........ let me see if I can sum up what I just read correctly. Not trying to fan flames with this list, just making sure my impression isn't off.

-No current production time line.
-Money invested cannot be recovered even though you all are way past the initially published time line.
-Multiple games being worked on and even new ones introduced before a single title has even been completed with a final design.
-The production numbers have changed without "owners" being notified.
-And finally, there is fear that asking questions may anger the maker and negatively impact further communication.

If that all is what you "owners" are actually experiencing I am very sorry. Sorry that you are not being treated as people who have invested thousands of your hard earned money and deserve timely results but apparently as human piggy banks to fund an unsustainable production process that has no apparent end in sight.

Maybe you all have way more cash than I do and can take the loss but if I paid for anything over two years ago and still did not have said item, legal action would be taken. I get delays in production but this by all outside appearances looks like a situation of being promised one thing and then that thing drastically changing without any real recourse available to you.

If anything I said is incorrect, my apologies for misrepresenting the facts.
If not.......... I don't understand why any of you are still in. Honestly, no limited production pin, no matter how cool the artwork and mechs are, is worth what you are all being asked to put up with imo.

I honestly wish the best for all of you and Jpop and hope it somehow works out, I just won't be holding my breath.

No refunds.......... what did you guys pay for then? A certificate to be exchanged for a pinball machine?
I am dead serious, can somebody explain how this works?

Is there a time limit to how long he can hold your cash without legal action?

It's painful to read that, but you've summarized it.

If I wasn't laughing I'd be crying at this point.

I love that idea, and the illustrations and vibe look sweet. I have no doubt the art on the playfield and plastics and toys (whatever is even done) looks great too. Just struck me as odd that with all that creativity he was borrowing known (and pretty damn famous at that) character designs.

Aurich u should do a revised translight like u did jjp cabinet... That would be comical and probably cooler

Damn, I give my wife crap for watching all those 'reality' drama shows on TV - yet I just spent a couple hours reading through this thread - totally entertained.

From an outsiders perspective, and with TigerLaw in mind, I'll just say....that was a very interesting read!

I always ask myself if in my professional life, would my customers accept me behaving in a similar manner. If the answer is no, then I expect the same when I am a customer. Acting petulant and aggressive when confronted with uncomfortable questions is a typical response to someone wanting to deflect attention from the issue. The only way it comes to a head is to be firm and consistent with the request of a status/timeline/state of the company address. Shrinking into the shadows when he growls only empowers him. The time to reign in this project is now while it can be salvaged. Not in another year when it's still not done. Listen, John dictated how the professional relationship would proceed when he introduced legally drafted contracts and NDA's. The owners aren't the only ones that have to play by the rules. If I was an owner I would demand the following:

1. Timeline on completion of all three games.
2. Percentage of completion of a fully functioning, ready to go to production prototype.
3. No more artwork revisions. Cleanup what you have and stick to it.
4. A list of items/components hindering progress and where he is at in resolving it.
5. How he plans on assembling the games.
6. Code and dots % completion.
5. Pictures of everything! None of this blurred picture bullshit.
6. Project funding percentage remaining to complete. (you will need a judge to get this one I'm sure)
7. No more projects/side ventures until completion of projects already funded by customers.

I know John won't comply with these demands but if/when the shit hits the fan, you need documentation that you requested it or John could say you knew everything. Send it certified and give a reasonable time frame to receive a written response. The time is now to yank this train back on the tracks. Im pulling for you guys.

Haha, I'm not a bad ass illustrator, I just fake it until I make it. The stuff I've seen from Jpop looks great, whether he did the art or someone else did, I have no idea. No complaints about the style, just odd to not do original characters.

Unfortunately it doesn't really look like this any more. I love the look in that video. The more recent look, like the backglass he showed at expo, kind of jumped the shark for me. It's like his artwork has become a caricature of itself. Some places it's cool, but others it is CV bright (which I own and like BTW) and just feels really busy. Then again, he's shown so many versions of different things I really have no idea which ones he's planning to roll with.

According to his seminar, he intends to roll with them all. Allowing people choices to customize their game. This seems like a horrible idea and I can't see how you'd ever actually complete games like that.

Direct quote from a silly article on pavlov pinball:

He plans to offer a high degree of customisation to customers so that they can buy something unique. “I am designing 1000 games for 1000 different people,” he says. “Customers might ask me to draw their dog on the playfield, or engrave their initials (into the cabinet.)”

If that's accurate, this stuff will never be done.

So two months ago, Ben Heck (ex-business partner and ex-technician of Zidware) was not confident about John's chances?!

My condolences to everyone who paid.

Just posted on the Blog hopefully he will take the time to read it and respond to this and all the other concerned posts there.

I'm not happy the games are taking so long, but i believe they will be complete and worth the wait or else i would have tried to get out too.
Honestly i was worried before taking the tour, but I think the progress he's made since last year is really good.

So ur estimate is another year? Or less or more for magic girl to be completed before production begins?

pdx or anyone else who is in -
Can you shed any light on what you guys actually are entitled to with your deposits and if there was anything to protect your investment in the case that a game isn't produced? You gave John money and I am hoping that in return you all are entitled to legal recourse in case of non delivery which is why "no refunds" just doesn't jive for me.
How can he not refund your purchase of an item that was not delivered as promised? How long does he get to produce a final product? 2 years? 5 years? 10 years?

That's the whole part of this that has me scratching my head. If you can't go into detail because of a contract you signed I understand but to me, as a total outsider, it sounds like you are all hostage to a process you have no control over.

And for that matter - what does any preorder legally entitle you to? Just trying to wrap my head around this and the more I think about the more wrong it seems from a consumer point of view.
Cheers!

JPOP if he has any problem, it is focus. Creative minds wander about and without focus control nothing gets done.

This is why projects have project managers who control costs and schedule with a whip to the development and test groups. Control is managed by funding. The project manager has to take away JPOPs money, and control his focus by controlling his money as in a real job.

Playfield design needs to be in a whiteboard design phase so that the software development can begin. The software is a large undertaking that requires development and testing with the hardware and circuit designs. Artwork can be secondary rather than a primary part of project development.

Consider how long Stern takes to bring the pin software to completion with focused software designers.

Talent and creativity are important, but focus control is required.

But you guys under the NDA still can't say where he is up to without fear of upsetting the main man, I mean there is talk about back glasses and cabinets (even public photo's of those) but you cannot say what stage he is actually at. Even without having to give away any secrets whatsoever I would assume that you could say it is at playable whitewood stage or prototype stage, or is it that nobody really knows aside from Jpop?

From an outside-in lens JosiahCox's summary post above has nailed it, unbelievable to us outsiders. I think it really demonstrates the "boiling of the frog" analogy of how much people will put up with over a long period of time. Happens in the workplace quite a lot and it is only when you step away that you realise you would never put up with that situation, ever.

Anyway I hope it is something that can be dealt with swiftly and amicably to everyone's satisfaction and the only real loser is father time. Good luck.

There was 100% refunds to a certain time (which has past) to obtain a refund your spot most be sold to another buyer. It's not ideal but it was the terms given in the beginning.
He's producing small runs of games not mass produced games where he can lose a dozen sales and be fine. I know the Magic Girl spot my friend and I bought together the customer was refunded in full. I also have a friend looking for a MG spot if anyone wants to bail I'll put you two in touch.

I would guess if the company does go under and has no money we would all be in the same boat.
I don't think that'll happen but that is worst case scenario. Extremely high risk Extremely high reward.

For reference the production BBB took five years to make and they had a dozen prototypes to look at.
If Magic girl is done in five years total id be happy in the end.

Thanks Pdx,
What you are saying makes total sense from the viewpoint of the manufacturer as he needs $$ to build games and I understand that those were the terms given and agreed upon in the beginning.
But what I can't understand how all of you buyers get lulled into accepting that no refunds date after he abandoned his stated time frame. I would imagine that the no refunds date was tied into the original timeline right? As John pushed out his production (not to mention the introduction of additional games) that no refunds date should have moved with the production no?

It seems crazy to me that John gets to tell you, the customer, that he can hold your money for as long as he wants with out producing a game and that you somehow lose your rights to refunds based on a date that no longer has any bearing on when you can expect your games.

This is the strangest version of pinball Stockholm syndrome I have ever seen.
The best advice cannot be, just hang in there because you might get a game eventually.
Or even worse, I'll just hang on because it's better than trying to sell my spot because no sane person would invest in this at this point.

You guys as consumers deserve a way to get out of this financially at this point imo. One that doesn't involve selling a game that don't exist to another person only to pass the risk to them.

BBB took two years from initial orders til the first units were shipped to Europe (to beat RoHS). Took one more year to build/ship all the domestic games. Late 2004 order, mid 2006 EU delivery, mid 2007 domestic delivery.

Anyone who wants to secretly send me their Jpop contract, I'll secretly repost it without any names involved....Buhahahahahahahahahaha

If you offered to buy my spot plus $1000 i wouldn't sell.

A contract is a two way street. You can't just bind one side to the terms of a contract and not the other.

While the terms of the contact indicated that there would be no refunds allowed after a certain date, there was also a timeline given for certain production milestones, including build dates and delivery of the pin.

Since those dates have come and gone, there is a breach of contract. As such, anyone (ANYONE) who has put money down is entitled to get their money back despite the terms of the contract saying the money isn't refundable.

The obvious caveat would be if there was a new contract agreed on where a new production schedule was set forth, signed by the buyer and Zidware.

I'm not advocating a lawsuit by anyone, but if a buyer were to ask for a refund and they are denied, this would be a very quick and easy Judgment in their favor if it ever had to get to that point.

Sheesh. What a total cluster F. This makes me want to stay clear of any boutique pre-orders..period.

To be fair not all preorders are equal
it seems DP has the best system in place currently

I would really be surprised if they had any cancelations yet though

He's not the only manufacturer who is not accepting refunds so let's be careful pointing the pitchforks. Another who stated will refund, now will not for at least 5 months (I will not divulge so to avoid starting something). But JPOP is not alone.

I respect JPOP and his pursuit of innovation and perfection. During his speech, he touched on the negativity on boards he reads and tries not to take personally - but seems like he does a bit, we're all human.

If he's reading this now, please understand it's not a personal attack on you or your creativity. It's sincerely disappointment that someone like DP can announce one year ago TBL effort and come to Expo a year later with a (well, 3 to be fair) terrific pre-alpha game with code. That, and they don't have the pedigree you have in pinball design/development. Your attention to detail and art is wonderful, but when other games are being announced after yours and progressing further with stated delivery dates it's hard to root for the home team. If you take a step back and role play as an excited owner whose deposited money in a project only to see all these other wonderful toys being delivered while you wait for a whitewood, frustration and discontent you'd likely be met with too. Just trying to see the other side of the coin.

How's the private thread going. Still crickets?

With Ben Heck gone, John is done. Ben was the lead tech at Zidware.

And what are the main toys for MG and RAZA? Does John even have the technical knowledge to materialize them?

My buddy told me that there is two magna flippers in MG...so there's that.

Sounds good, which means there's a whitewood. But I wonder if that was developed while Ben was involved...