Yes, please do. We could use more positive's from the "boutique" builders out there and your Pinball 2000 project is certainly cool.

QSS

Unlike Jpop, Spooky has proven that they can actually build and deliver games. What good is John's "untouchable" art if the games never make their way into owners' game rooms? Never mind the fact that he doesn't actually produce the art himself.

All that aside, if you are a fan of Spooky #2's license you will be a fan of the artwork. Better yet, the game will actually get made. Imagine that!

If John doesn't see a problem, what's makes anyone think he will turn this over to them, even investors. He would stilI want to lead regardless. Its just as scary to think he doesn't even really have much art done if he asked both Ice and the dude that can read people to submit art samples, when they never even offered to help with the art.

But is Jpop behind this idea? Would he ever be?

John seems to not be able to accept help, yet is waiting for someone to magically swoop in to save the day.

I think the request for art samples is more indicative of some kind of obsession disorder.

If the project was totally turned over (100%) to competent people I think more buyers could be attracted to both projects (and AIW). JPop needs to be fully out though.

I can't see him ever doing that, he'd just file bankruptcy... Unlike the Kev situation I don't think he's done anything that he could be prosecuted for... so ultimately he'll file bankruptcy and then start blaming everybody else for it.

lol yikes. Was just a hypothetical. Forgot the pinside world demands their answers instantly. I do hear ya though. No one else can simply not respond to emails and expect to stay in any sort of business. Same goes for what I do.

Either way, this is super ridiculous and when I chatted with him at the NW show last year I got the same impression we all feel here. He had some art with him, that was it and would only roll it up like half way to show people and some of the "Cool kids" got to see it rolled up more. It was super odd.

How long before John can't pay rent and gets evicted, and he has to somehow manage to move 3,000 sq feet of equipment, parts and drawings into his house? I don't think he'll wake up until that day happens. At that point he won't have a choice but to ask for help (IE turn the project over to someone else that can finish it)

Like ipb, could have sold assets before the banks took over

He already is and has spoken about it for a long time now.

John Popadiuk lives in a magical world. - I mean that in the worst way.

Jpopped

JPop did not refund my money yesterday.

yup. From everything I've been told or understand, he thinks if he can finish the games everything washes away. I don't care how great the games are, there will be few takers wanting to repeat the process giving him money years in advance for future titles.

A likely outcome. Unfortunately it means all of us with money tied up in this get screwed. But the world might see the games.

Is funding a requirement to finish delivery of the games ordered?

100%

I know there are people who can afford and want something better than Stern, PPS or JJP LE. Jpop games were in the $10K to $16K range. So, it's not unthinkable that a market exists.

The main culprit and why John is getting into trouble (besides not making any progress) is this:

1) payments far in advance of delivery. (will not work)
2) large payments without any proof of life (will not work)
3) no refunds (will not work).

if John could correct any of the above stipulations, he would not be thought of as a total loser. I'm sure some people want the games (just as some people still want Predator games), but John has 'trapped' others in who do not wan the games any more or who are tired of waiting. John may face lawsuits and bankruptcy and loss of reputation because of the above three caveats.

I mean, if there are lets say 40 people who want refunds (call $300,000), and John won't give them, then those 40 people can torpedo the whole project by bringing this to a head. By forcing John to go bankrupt essentially.

Now, if John was able to give his refunds, there might not be this constant drum beat, this constant demand for John to finish the games.

At the same time, by John not giving any refunds, he is able to drag these games out to 4-5 years development (which is not in anybody's interest). Time is money.

You think when Apple releases a product, that they are totally happy with it? Or do you think they could have done something more or better if they had unlimited time to build it? The point is, a company needs to push products out the door. Stern has it's faults but, failing to deliver products is not one of them. Stern may have an issue (like the Aux board on XMLE or the code) but they can work on them later. What a company can not do is simply fail to deliver a product for years on end.

Duke Nuke-em is a good example, or GNR album 'Chinese Democracy'. By the time they had delivered, no one really cared any more and they weren't any better because they had a super long development period.

I realize my last post was going on too long (I have some 'Houseofpins' tendencies in me). So just to sum up. If anyone wants to take over these games or anyone wants to make a super deluxe pinball machine in the $16K range. They need to actually make the pins, they need to show proof of life before they collect money, they need to refund money if people are not satisfied.

This whole "I won't refund money" is batshit crazy and the root of the problem.

If John feels he doesn't need to refund money, he also feels that he is entitled to take as long as he wants since the owners are essentially 'locked in' for the duration.

MMR and WoZ had delays that were not healthy, but people were able to sell their spots (because they changed their mind and no longer wanted the games) or were able to get refunds (because the JJP and PPS were sure they could sell the games to someone else). John is not confident he will be able to sell the spots to anyone else (no proof of life) so he doesn't want to assume the risk. he want the original owners to keep all the risk. Also, by John not refunding, he is telegraphing (to me at least) that he is not confident the games will ever be made or if they are that they will be any good. If he was so sure the games would sell, he could refund the deposits (of the people who ask) and he could sell the remainders as they were build like Spooky did with AMH.

Now the problem comes when/if everyone wants a refund. That's on John for not delivering a pin or at least showing proof of life.

For example MMR and WoZ while there were delays, they were always answering their phones or emails, they were always communicating what the delay was, they were always at the shows with prototypes or in the case of WoZ they had prototypes on location.

I'm not saying it's easy, look JJP is still not building TH and MMR was 4-5 months late to ship. But that's one thing, but being 3-4 years into development and not even having a prototype to show is appalling.

I am loathe to do this but it seems like an appropriate time to quote Steve Jobs:

"Real artists ship."

I, for one, do not believe that John has the funds to refund even a single MG buyer. With the time he has taken and the setup costs he has encountered, I can't see a way that hasn't required him to burn through nearly every penny he has collected. I am with Ice, this is going to come to a head very soon.

I was referring to a bankruptcy situation. Isn't this the process if it happened? :

-zidware fails, forced into bankruptcy
-anyone with deposits paid become unsecured creditors
-zidware assets sold to highest bidder

-new owner of assets continues work on the game, but has no debts to any previous pre-buyers. So it is a clean slate. Any remaining deposits owed on raza are irrelevant, everyone would have to make a new deal with the new owner for another game.

The only thing that is positive is people that owed money on their RAZA only lost SOME of their money and not the entire thing.

Just to go back a while in this thread, someone said Ferrari may have a 2-3 year wait list for it's cars. But that's a whole different story. Ferrari is making cars every day, they are shipping cars and have been for 68 years.

The point, Ferrari likes there to be a wait list (like a good restaurant, they don't want you to be able to get a reservation at all times), it adds to the mystique.

People that pre-order a Ferrari that is 2-3 years out do not pay in advance. They probably put a deposit (I have no idea let's say $20K) which would represent a .05% deposit which would work out to $800 deposit for a $16K item.

I agree with the sentiment... we're dealing with a company that has collected money and not shipped a single product in 4 going on 5 years.

Best case scenario would be for the stiffed buyers to make a successful bid for the assets and try to figure out a way to forge ahead with design completion and ultimately production. There would be considerably more infusion of cash needed to make this happen, even from fully paid MG owners.

On a related side note, where would a complete Zidware collapse leave Cointaker with regards to the RAZA special edition that they sold directly? Would they be on the hook to their customers?

Pretty much sums it up.

QSS

Or... 3) John gets mortgage on his house and puts some of his own skin in the game!

I had not heard that LOL

it's appropriate, we should have T-shirts made up and sent to Jpop
----------
An old saying at AppleComputer, attributed to SteveJobs, meaning that while producing stuff that is cool, elegant, innovative, and InsanelyGreat is important, it is even more important to actually produce working software that can be delivered to users.

Trouble is denial protects against a painful reality.

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Listen to coast 2 coast pinball, starting about 54 minutes in. Greg Dunlap was asked if he would ever help "somebody" code, and he declined.

No 'angel' investor is going to jump and save the day, unless they are someone with a total love of pinball and are willing to do it with the understanding there will be no return on the investment, best you could hope for is getting your money back out. Any true investor wants a return that justifies the risk they are taking, which is pretty high and this case, and are looking for a minimum of 3 or 4 fold return, if not significantly more.

On a related note, it is pretty typical in a start-up situation that those who invest later get better terms than those that were the first to take risks. Often the founders will make very little compared to the last guys to throw in money (which is often big money) who are often guaranteed to get a 2 or 3X return before the early investors get anything, and with multiple rounds, there can be a couple of layers like that. So, in the case of some of these scenarios being thrown around, where more machines are made, and others feel that the new buyers (e.g. investors), are going to get a better deal of sorts, well, that is sort of how that often works.

In this case getting a machine, that is less rare that originally expected, is better than the company going bankrupt and those early 'investors' getting squat. However, unless John is willing to have someone else be running the company, hard to see anyone putting any money in, whether as deposits towards a game or as an investment to help keep the company afloat.

Funny thing is, I could help John with this. I've help build successful companies, raised millions in capital (not that I think you really can in this situation at all), and I can actually also code a game, but at the same time, I've learned enough from this thread and talked with enough folks who have worked (or attempted to) with John, to know not to even reach out to John and go down that rabbit hole. I know the history, and I have no desire to repeat it. If I really thought John would change . . . but just don't see that happening.

Linda Deal
Cirqus Voltaire
Demolition Man
Doctor Who
Junk Yard
Riverboat Gambler
SlugFest (First Model)
SlugFest (Second Model)
Theatre of Magic
WHO dunnit

Pat McMahon
Mousin' Around!
Rollergames
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The Pinball Circus

Jpop might not make the art, but he certainly seems to push the artists to deliver. Their best work is under him. Without him their art while good, has not been given the same coveted status. So no, just hiring the artist does not equate to an instant home run in the looks dept.

Let's pretend that Jersey Jack bought the IP in bankruptcy and proceeded to make the machines in his factory.

Perhaps for "the good of pinball" and the goodwill he would generate, he would do something for us poor jpop'd buyers, but I don't see him just giving us all machines.

yea, i don't think jack is in the financial situation right now where he can afford a completely altruistic venture...

Of course not, it take good art direction. A good theme helps a lot too. And John's obviously good at it. But he doesn't have some kind of monopoly on that talent. I'm disputing the notion that "no one can touch him" on art. Sure they can.

I cannot believe that someone with significant money to invest in a pinball project would willingly take on all the extra baggage associated with Jpop and these games. What is the attraction? There appears to be little in the way of must-have assets that are fully or largely developed. Why take on these entanglements rather than investing in a comparatively clean slate company like Heighway or Spooky? They may not be perfect, but you would surely be less encumbered by past sins.

Good luck Aurich, you can't get a much better tittle than Alien to prove yourself....no pressure
I guess this means a Congo translite is not in our foreseeable future!

Guys this Zidware thing is dead. Stick a fork in it. Many of you are on the right path with bankruptcy and having to take control, however, once there, what would anyone bid for this pile of poop anyway. If all the original investors were to do this as a group and realize that if a deal could be struck to manufacture with lets say JJP, there would need to be open runs on each machine to make it work. By open I mean 1000 to 2000 minimum. I still think something could be arranged to satisfy all us original investors with those type of numbers but there would have to be a team of us readily available to put in the time energy and yes some money.

It's at the point where I would agree with production of any number if it meant I got my game.

Jpop's vision about how this was going to play out is over. The foundation of his business was built on swampland, it was never a viable business model. If there's any way for me to not lose all my money, I'll agree with whatever the plan is.

If I was in on Magic Girl, I would drive over to Zidware with my wife's minivan and take delivery of one of these. You paid for one, you own one. I would ask for all of the parts he has related to the game, and off I would drive, never to allow JPop into my life again. I would figure it out from there. If 5 or 10 partial games are in his shop, that group of owners can figure out where to go next. Maybe for another $3K each, you can get some of the rarest completed games in history. Again, this is what I would do. If he did not cooperate, I would call the police while I was there and show my receipt (It worked with my ex-wife).

386835-i.jpg

Ha, no pressure indeed.

And yeah, I'm sure I'll get back to mods later, but right now Alien is obviously the priority.

As for buying out John ... the thing that's crazy to me is we still haven't even seen a game flipping. For all the pretty art we still don't know if these games are even any fun. Do they shoot well? Who knows!

No designer nails it every time, with maybe the exception of Brian Eddy, who retired batting 1.000

If you take away the super crazy limited collector thing, and yet they're still pricey games, how much interest will there truly be?

No offense to anyone who's offered to help, but can you program a fun game?

Just so many unknowns. That plus the baggage makes it seem like a crazy venture to want to jump into with a lot of cash.

Well Frolic you are right this is the only hope and what it has come down too. There are no magic pinball fairies that are going to back up a truck load of money and dump it at Jpops front door. That would make them crazier well than opps no personal attacks but you get my drift. I have never come across with an owner of a company that relinquishes "others" assets for the good of the investors. Just doesn't happen. One way or another control must be taken kicking and screaming or do the right thing! Thats about all Jpop can do before its done for him.

I think this is the main thing... MG and RAZA do look like they would be fantastic games, but what is the upside for any other manufacturer to purchase these 'designs' ? They all have great designers already who could create other designs with no baggage. There's three or four guys at Stern who are basically more talented than JPOP in the design of machines and have stronger track records. There's two big-shots at JJP who are more talented than JPOP.

Have Steve Ritchie design a 16 THOUSAND dollar pinball machine and it'll eat MG's lunch. Let Pat Lawlor design a 16 thousand dollar machine and see what you get.

Not to insult JPOP's talent, he's very talented... but lets put this in perspective... he's not creating anything that's a genius idea that the other companies can't get near. Stern/JJP/Spooky/Heighway are all making some damn fine machines right now.

Bailing Jpop out would be charity work, there's no money to be made doing it. Even an unknown company would be better off coming up with a new title with no baggage and no debt.

Aurich you are right as well, many unanswered questions, however this wouldn't take a ton of money to see what we have financed to build to this point. Either its good or its not. I know everyone was crapping all over John for working on the three machines while the first wasn't even produced and while I agree it seems kinda strange, you have to remember John took in money under all three tittles. Co mingling of "deposits" or funds could have worrisome legal implications so whether he knew this or not ,one can only guess but to be able to show progress on all three would simply help him if anything was to happen legally. As I said.... John if your reading you really have only two choices at this point. Hand the company over to those who have paid for it and possibly help pinball for the future and those who believed in you or it may be taken from you by people who Just have dollar signs in their eyes. If it was I'm pretty sure most "manufactures" would't give them the time of day right?

Lyons, with 1000 to 2000 produced these are no longer 17k machines. Yes there are designers out there and yes they are all good, I'm not gonna argue about who is better however we do know Jpop is no slouch and there are enough out there that love his designs and games period. Can you imagine some of his better games with say Keefer on code??? The point is there are some questions that need to be answered the main one is this. Where are all three machines at and what percentage of a completed machine do they represent in costs. This is the only way to figure out if they can or should go to manufacturing (assuming Aurich they passed the smell test for fun) Problem is in order to find all this out you need to refer back to my last post

'fun' is the eye of the beholder or I guess the player. But you are welcome to play mine at expo, or talk to those who have. The feedback as been very positive on it. Certainly not done with it yet. But to your point, the second game I was working on, when I finally got it to the point I could actually play it for real, vs a 'simulator', I was just not happy with it, the toys were great, and was pretty pleased with where the the dots and sounds were, but the overall play relative to the software was just "off" -- too much going on at the same time which confused things, and it needs some serious re-work -- but it does have cool toys.

This video of my first game is pretty old many things of changed, as this was while I was converting to the larger, color display, at some point you will see graphics from when it was standard DMD which will give you a sense of the difference. (plus the guy playing was stoned or drunk at the time). The return is also much nicer then this hacked together thing, having had a custom one made. I need to do an updated video and clearly I need to find an artist.

if you put in the "spinners" we almost have a slightly modified Whirlwind here! well done

I've thought about adding a spinner to one side of the inner loop or what I call the 'left loop' which is one of the shots off the upper flipper, love spinners, especially if they have good speed and sound. I don't really know whirlwind that well, but the game obviously has influences from Steve Ritchie, Pat Lawlor and others. Naturally I incorporated the things I like it games (fast loops and orbits, ramps feeding back to inlanes for flow, third flipper, kickback, shot through pops, things that require nudging skills (at least if you are playing on high or wizard mode), etc.).