Im in! RAZA here I come!
Just in today. Hoping not financing magic girl oh wait might be in on that one too! Im screwed (in the head)
sent me the site to go through is that what your talking about ice? Pdx are you in on this as well? Still need to pick up one of those jpop pins your holding for me!
Very nice Pdx. I cant help but feel im a bit of the frame work or engine Will you be coming up then to the show? would be great to meet and slide in the back of a truck I'm trying to borrow right now! didnt get the JY from Charlie someone beat it to me but it wasnt high priority anyway. Thanks for the good word though. Are you going to Charlies the friday night?
dude killer clowns are not going anywhere, ever since that damn clown under the bed in Poltergeist 1 .... hate em!
you need to write this money off and still feel somewhat comfortable, otherwise probably just not worth the aggravation. If he does come through I have a feeling it could be the smartest move you make! help you?
It sounds like he is culminating new programmers to this specific industry! I think that is fantastic (if true), and helps the future of pinball. I will be seeing Jpop next weekend in Tacoma. Lets get 10 top questions to ask for those who are in on this ride or those who are possibly always still interested on getting in. Programmers was my first one give me more.
Oh and I will ask about NDA and how he sees it. Want to hear from the horses mouth. Disclaimer I have not signed one yet!
Yes, trying to find a little family car to borrow if you are coming the friday? I could at least get Machine it to my GF house in Mercer so you dont need to worry about it John is coming fri and setting a small table out in the lobby area!
too low of numbers these will be built like Bens . Also I said before new programmers and up and comers. .. will try and get names
Quoted from lllvjr:
Heard there will be a scaled down version of magic girl to offset cost over runs.
According to Jpop, there will be no such thing. He is building one machine for Magic girl and that's it. Numbers, not sure have heard many different quantities, however what ever it will end up being it will be very exclusive.
Boys i'm expecting this thread to start humming by tomorrow! Have fun and please share what you see feel and hear!
your missing nothing as long as Zidware has the assets left in the company to pay out the creditors. I'm not sure with US law but up here it would be on a pro rata basis.
guys it is pretty simple. Jpop, personally is not responsible and all agree it is his LLC. Given that, If someone wants their money back they would file suit and eventually (lots in between here) get in front of a judge who would then decide whether or not it is a valid claim. If it is, and due to the amount of time I believe this is the case, the judge would then ask the LLC to pay back what is owed. If the LLC cannot, it is insolvent and a Court ordered receiver would be appointed to rip the LLC apart, find what assets it has, and distribute on a pro rata basis to all creditors who have "signed up" or are involved. If the LLC can pay claim back business continues as per usual.
I really don't have an issue here and there would be a whack of arguments on both sides the LLC and the creditors but by principle I my self have to sit back here and ask myself, did I get into this because I love pinball and did I know there was possibility this would never get done? Of course I did so there is no way I would be the one to force the LLC into insolvency. I am not saying anyone needs or has to feel the way I do, it's just what I knew in my brain when I handed over my hard earned cash. I myself don't even have access to the private form which i'm sure is no more than my bad computer skills and misplacing an email from John that did give me the access and a code? Rambling, sorry. Lets let him get this done and really I don't think there will be much less there NOT letting him try to finish to be honest.
Quoted from lllvjr:
Even if jpop ran out of the money to actually make the games by using it all up on company build up and design build up he could get a loan to build the games, increase the totals to offset the cost of the loan and make the games. He's far enough along that there's that option if it were a issue. Again it's nice to be informed what ur rights are from knowledgable guys here in law. Your talking hypothetical scenario no one is saying go sue him.
Exactly i am saying the opposite. There is no point. there will be more there in LLC letting him finish. For anyone to consider starting the avalanche (see Rob T's comments) its really just not good business. If he was out on his 50 ft Yacht with a martini in his had (sounds more like me) then yes but he is working his fingers to the bones and this letter proves this! Let it be!
What? Willy Wonka is opening his factory up for those lucky enough to have the "golden ticket", or is this a general for all to see thing?
Give it a rest, will ya? He doesn't owe anyone except his customers anything.
Seeing that Bill aka Wcbrandes is in on all 3 of jpop's I think you misunderstood
Two! I'm a hard ass, I want to wait to see one before the third, plus I went and put money on TBL and Hobbit. I think there is one more out there but I forget at the moment I'm the poster boy for Barnum and Bailey's most famous quote!
RD never said he was any different which is exactly why Jpop should have never gone there in the first place and more importantly why I have money down on Jpop's designs!
Ice send me the blog when you get it Ive asked far too many times and I just don't have access. Looking forward to the big reveal.
look I'm pretty sure when someone has your money, and they have past the point of delivering product in a "reasonable" time frame, all NDA's go out the window! NDA's cant possibly hold up in a court of law in this situation. This is Canada anyway but the US must have to adhere to reason as well.
Oh my seriously just more art? I'm on the waiting list for MG and I cant see a thing? This is just getting too weird
Jpop is a kept man, lets not worry too much about the finances, he"s doing what he loves and i'm pretty sure the MG's will eventually be made
She's on almost everyone one of his machines you just need to ask the right questions will leave to others to do their homework. He is a good man, lets hope he can keep moving towards the finish line. Time we know is not in is vocab neither is focusing on one thing, so we will all just have to wait this out!
I never got the access and i'm in on Raza and waiting list for MG. I have asked with no response
if I was in at 13, 17 or 25, I would be praying for 50 right about now, so as to get enough capital to build these things! I really don't think in a world market any of these low numbers will make a huge difference on resale values but then again I think the more out there to play is the way to go as well!
I'm actually shocked he's using standard standup targets, and not something he reengineered from scratch.
I agree with Ice. We all know exactly how this is going to go. He is who he is and until he gets some sort of business manager in there this unfortunately is not going to change
I moved Labowski back into my line up, however MG and RAZA still remain in the toilet
since this is Feb., and the month of love (Valentines), I was hoping to see a lot more red hearts here. just saying
Quoted from fumbleflippers:
I don't know anything other than Jpop still isn't communicating with his actual customers, he's relying on third parties to relay news. He should just show what he's got to the owners and let them decide what they want to do.
Do you even listen or read? Do you have skin in the game?
Quoted from Aurich:
If you ask me he should just ditch the whole stupid NDA idea. It was dumb in the first place, but if he'd actually been feeding you guys awesome updates the whole time and it was a cool little secret club then it would have worked.
Instead you've got this situation where the outside world is convinced everything is screwed, and the owners don't feel much different. Total backfire. This obsession with patents and secrets is ridiculous. Pinball is a hobby where people build upon each other. Jpop wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the people before him who set the stage. Make your game, and let the public point fingers if someone tries to steal your idea.
But if you just opened everything up (hint, that's the "Labowski Effect") and got people excited everyone would be in a better spot. Not least of which is if it looks like things will eventually be done and you want a refund the chances of someone taking your spot are exponentially higher if everyone can see what's coming.
Let's face it, we've all seen the Adobe video, the NDA is a joke. Just become a pinball company and try and impress the world. Do it right and the positive feedback would be a healthy thing for everyone.
Yes but now Ice is working for free for John and he's even paying for his machines!
where is it in season 3 Dougie? I usually wait till all done then watch all 10 to 15 at once! No spoilers!
Also a big shout out for the Ice man. I know he isnt just doing this for his own benefit although he would never let you all on to believe this!
Quoted from Mr68:
I object counselor.
In my opinion I think you should contact John as needed. If that's twice a month or five times a month that's fine, but as needed. I use to micromanage my people until I realized what an ass I was and how I hurt morale.
Just a suggestion.
I will also suggest that you post to our private owners group. I'm not sure what kind of updates you're going to post but once Pinside reads something, anything, those know it all, non owners are gonna smoke your keyboard.
Spill some over to Pinside on occasions if you like, but weekly updates? Your funeral my friend.
I fly out tomorrow and will be reporting to the private owners group for the reasons above. I may have some spill over but doubtful. And if group members want to chat up the info publicly I have no problem with that.
Why are you doing what John did in the first place? May I suggest it all gets out to the people here as I don't get why you need to keep this all private? The more information, positive or negative will decide if this thing is going to make it or not. There needs to be much positive news to as many as possibly can in order to get sales going and or even getting the rest of the deposits in. I haven't joined this "private" group as I didnt really feel the need too! If Ice is getting info and John has laughed at his own NDA then get all the info out here.
Look i have talked to John as well, in person and over text. I really like the guy and as he is in the dark about how important it is to get as much information out as possible, I still feel we would be doing him a disservice by keeping this "private" as in the past! Get it all out there good or bad!
Thanks Mr68 its time to get this business moving forward, not keep it in the dark. Ice has the right approach IMO and we need to hold his hand all the way to the finish line. They will be great machines he just needs help getting there
Quoted from rai:
I know it's not my place to speak. But IMO John should have an open policy on refunds now that he is officially 1- 2 years late. I am not saying he won't get the pins done. But the contract was not solely for John's benifit, the owners expected a product.
People who pre-ordered deserve something for the free loan, and aggravation and yet father delays. I think there is a better chance of me becoming the next Queen of England than of RAZA owners getting pins delivered in the next 9 months.
Rai, my man, are you saying your a queen?
Quoted from dmesserly:
I got an invite but the links will not work. Did anyone else have this problem and how did you fix it?
I sent Kim an email but expect it will take a bit to get back to me. I'd like to catch up on what's going on.
I went through my blackberry and that worked. I too couldn't get it through regular email. Give your personal hand held device a try. Perhaps even ipad
hahahah touchy, must be in the business rai don't worry I love anything blue and would pay double!!!
Yes I too agree..... but god forbid any pinball manufacturer makes a shite ton of money!
damn i was hoping you were in the business, took my hint, and my little blue pills were in the mail
I met the guys from fast and had a great conversation, keep in mind I was learning about their technology as business is my strong point, not boards and programming. Having said this I do know one thing....these guys are huge enthusiast and if their boards do and perform as they say they do, and they are prepared to work with John and get a flipping game by the PNW meeting, then the rest of the business issues ie cost/future cost etc can be worked out in advance to avoid and "bad" business practices down the road...its just business. Lets get er on and get these things flipping I, after talking with these guys have some confidence they can do what they say and in a timely fashion.
I appreciate the heads up as I have a very full travel and "business" schedule. I want to get to Chicago this year and this is just one more reason to go!
Thanks for the Canadian props Ice, we tend to be to nice a people to get into these squabbles as seen above
Well I would have to agree with the Ice man. I am not quite sure where all the money went when he is certainly not paying those who have sent product and or put in the time. We are talking close to 1 million US here or 1.2 CDN . If hes not even paying "cost" for LED's then I really am stumped on this one. Ice can we ask him for a "state of affairs", on the money and have him prove it? I would think if a lawyer friend is spouting he has plenty then why not just show and prove it so we can figure out the next steps ie paying off the vendors that need to be paid (repairing bridges). If this is not done then there really is no hope as who will supply product when never get paid? Lets just get right to the bottom SHOW US THE MONEY
I don't think Ice is "overconfident" at all. He is merely smart enough to know legally this will do nothing for the people waiting for their machines, and he is putting in his own time to see, if at all, what he can do to put this thing back on it's tracks. If and when we find out the truth about finances then it can be assessed and either get Jpop the help he needs or simply let everyone know time to stick a fork in it.
I'm saying if and when 68. Eventually the truth will have to come out but it would be in everyone's best interest to get this info asap, and if he's not willing to give Ice the "state of affairs" and prove where it stands financially then what's the whole point of ice going through this exercise? Trust me he is not there to waste his own valuable time and I will assume, since D is a smart boy it is exactly what he is working towards
I was on a reality TV show and let me tell you it's not as real as one would think. I have faith in Ice to either get this info as quickly as he possibly can and or clearly come to the conclusion we need to legally shut it down. There is a fast way of doing this and it's called bankruptcy. We don't need to go into the ins and outs of bankruptcy as it would not achieve the desired results however the tool is there and can be used effectively.
Hey just noticed approaching 2 million points ........I talk or write too much And yes this is a shot at all those approaching 15 million plus!
Can someone please just sum up where this Kaneda guy went wrong? I suppose I was here far after he burned bridges with you all and now that hes involved with this mess I think I want to know
Point me to a thread or something. Pm me, do whatever but he's the most hated guy on this site and inquiry minds need to know!
Quoted from fastpinball:
This was in very early discussion when Rick first mentioned it at Texas. Even I was unaware of all the other projects John had on his plate at the time. We have ToTAN right next to Funhouse in our shop. So its still on the list of projects, but it is not in heavy development at the moment.
Aaron is Funhouse 2.0 getting done? If so how close are you
Sorry to get off topic , just heard so many rumors can you kill them. Then we can get back to bashing John.....sorry John
Guys this Zidware thing is dead. Stick a fork in it. Many of you are on the right path with bankruptcy and having to take control, however, once there, what would anyone bid for this pile of poop anyway. If all the original investors were to do this as a group and realize that if a deal could be struck to manufacture with lets say JJP, there would need to be open runs on each machine to make it work. By open I mean 1000 to 2000 minimum. I still think something could be arranged to satisfy all us original investors with those type of numbers but there would have to be a team of us readily available to put in the time energy and yes some money.
Well Frolic you are right this is the only hope and what it has come down too. There are no magic pinball fairies that are going to back up a truck load of money and dump it at Jpops front door. That would make them crazier well than opps no personal attacks but you get my drift. I have never come across with an owner of a company that relinquishes "others" assets for the good of the investors. Just doesn't happen. One way or another control must be taken kicking and screaming or do the right thing! Thats about all Jpop can do before its done for him.
Aurich you are right as well, many unanswered questions, however this wouldn't take a ton of money to see what we have financed to build to this point. Either its good or its not. I know everyone was crapping all over John for working on the three machines while the first wasn't even produced and while I agree it seems kinda strange, you have to remember John took in money under all three tittles. Co mingling of "deposits" or funds could have worrisome legal implications so whether he knew this or not ,one can only guess but to be able to show progress on all three would simply help him if anything was to happen legally. As I said.... John if your reading you really have only two choices at this point. Hand the company over to those who have paid for it and possibly help pinball for the future and those who believed in you or it may be taken from you by people who Just have dollar signs in their eyes. If it was I'm pretty sure most "manufactures" would't give them the time of day right?
Lyons, with 1000 to 2000 produced these are no longer 17k machines. Yes there are designers out there and yes they are all good, I'm not gonna argue about who is better however we do know Jpop is no slouch and there are enough out there that love his designs and games period. Can you imagine some of his better games with say Keefer on code??? The point is there are some questions that need to be answered the main one is this. Where are all three machines at and what percentage of a completed machine do they represent in costs. This is the only way to figure out if they can or should go to manufacturing (assuming Aurich they passed the smell test for fun) Problem is in order to find all this out you need to refer back to my last post
Very talented Yeti! We will get your art on a machine out there one way or another!
Quoted from Rarehero:
So, what's the point of PDX saying "I just played it" and nothing else? Haven't we learned that silence allows everyone else to fill in the blanks?
Does the silence mean it sucked? Or does it mean Jpop somehow convinced him to stay quiet. Either way - cockteasing like that doesn't accomplish anything.
it usually provides a hard on. Well maybe not in this case!
Give credit where credit is due. John may not draw the art but he certainly is the guy that comes up with the overall layout and design. Can't take that away from him. Having said that, Neo I'm with you...it will be a shame to see these machines die and not see John thrive. While there is no defending his business decisions, I will not put him in the same ballpark as a certain others who were out to "profit" from this hobby, I just won't shoot me.
Quoted from BackFlipper:
I think John has already been paid his profit in this endeavor. I think he is the only one who has profited. Just my opinion.
There is so much speculation and impossible to measure what John profited without the facts. I'm sure he paid himself but I believe he had full intentions of getting these machines built and out the door and that's this mans one opinion. I'm invested here as well and have seen all sorts of companies mismanaged, taken for a ride, and succeed as well. This to me smells like someone trying his best without the "personal" necessary tools to get there. Self realization is hard for some people but I always go back to common sense and what I believe their intentions were from the beginning and all the way to that pivotal turning point.
These by the way are all the main factors I need to analyze and judge before deciding what path to take.
I believe Rai forgot the time factor in the equation and meant wouldn't have lasted this long based on a 150k salary per year. Everything is pointing towards running low if not out so Aurich you are right as well
Quoted from vid1900:
Since the Big Lewbowski only sold 200 units, and that is a very popular theme, I have difficulty believing that MG could possibly sell 1000 games.
Vid I would think it is well over 200 machines not sure where you get this number as Barry indicated to me it was well over this. Also I really don't think TBL is a big popular theme like lets say AIW would be, it's just not.
You are a reasonable guy, so I hate to say this, but I can't at all imagine we live in world where AIW would be a bigger seller than TBL, assuming games of reasonably equal quality. Just look at the buzz on this board when each was announced. Heck, there was a preorder list for TBL before the game was even a thing you could order. Many Mad Hatter profile pics on pinside?
Basically... I think you are (gasp!) wrong about this.
I have to disagree, and from one reasonable guy to another I'm not sure the world you live in if you think The Big Lebowski is a more recognizable theme and or story. The darkness of AIW leaves a ton of options available to both hardcore and not so hardcore pinball fans.
Quoted from BC_Gambit:
I 100% agree with the potential being there regarding AIW. Just time and time again when push has come to shove, unlicenced pins get the cold shoulder when it comes time for people to open their wallets. Heck even BHZA and whatever it morphed into lean heavily on "inspired by license" material.
Ben Heck, licensed brand (I realize no money probably changed hands). Then that did not work so lets just be "inspired" by Toho and Mars Attacks.
People complain they want unlicenced themes, just not any that appear to come up for sale apparently
I think AIW is basically the best of both worlds.....It's just like a license that doesn't need a agreement with the license holder. I bet Kevin would be reallllly interested in this one instead of Predator
Just think there is no restrictions at all in what the artwork has to look like or what the evil Queen can and cannot do with the interaction of the ball!
I agree with both Rarehero and Rob, this guy knows how to create an experience in pinball which makes it all the more disappointing where this thing has gone or better worded not gone
Quoted from benheck:
All these people volunteering to dive in and "save" JPOP remind me of these women who get engaged to a guy who's been divorced 4 times and think "I'll be the one to fix him!"
Or people truly care about pinball and their fellow hobbyists, hope to somehow get these amazing designs built and programmed by spending their own personal time, money and energy to help this along and just take that chance he will awaken to reality at some point. To those who have tried thank- you. Lets hope at some point he's too old to even consider to move on to wife 6.
I know what we have here, we have a proven designer that has no clue how to run business efficiently or effectively. His abilities to pinball design go far beyond just the art work, in fact he doesn't even draw it, however he knows what he wants and when coupled with his layouts they can and have been called masterpieces to pinball design. I think this is what people like Frolic mean when they say it is "fueled by hints of greatness" .... coupled with what he has done in the past. I have no doubt these games would be amazing if they were to be completed and coupled with the right programmers. There is far more here than just art work from what I've seen and I've seen probably less than most as I never did got access to the private sites even though I paid in my hard earned money
Quoted from zr11990:
Get a lawyer and sue his ass. Take everything he owns if at all possible. You will never get your pins or your money back. Make his life as miserable as possible. Have him living on the streets. He doesn't seem smart enough to have taken the precautions to keep from being sued.
Then go out back and kick your own ass for not doing sufficient due diligence and handing over money to a person that has no previous business experience.....I know i did now I can sleep a little easier at night.
Quoted from zr11990:
This is funny. I was referring to one of the lawyers here starting a class action suit for the sheer satisfaction of destroying him for what he has done. Im a vindictive bastard when it comes to someone screwing me over. I want revenge as nasty as I can get it.
Lawyers doing something for "free" 30 years buying selling and dismantling companies I have yet to get something for free! what am I doing wrong Again sorry Ice Rob et al
Guys there are basically three parts to creating a great machine. when you take Jpops previous games all I look at is layout, original concept design and art and finish. Programming is a separate beast all together and we know the ones out there that have mastered this craft and seems there are more on the way. Building a pinball is hard ....leave it to the business and manufacturing people! To me it is a perfect storm when all three of these come together and I think this is why there is great anticipation when we all talk about Pat Lawlor's up coming game. I need to stress Jpop is one of the masters in one of the three categories not gonna argue who is best because we all have taste and preferences. It's the business man that is smart enough to create the perfect storm who will triumph, taking the chance to do all three and produce something great in a timely fashion well it is a total long shot in my humble opinion and one of the worst business decisions one can probably make. Due diligence is the buys part...I failed on this one
Quoted from nintendo:
I'm sure everyone did their due diligence at the beginning, but there wasn't much in terms of negative findings :/. John just started his venture in what, 2011? Prior to that he was known to have his name on totan, tom, cv and wcs. So he was proven to have been involved in the creation of successful pins and everyone knew this which is why it was easy for jpop to get that preorder money. Sure there were a few red flags in the beginning but there's always going to be some red flags in any entrepreneurial endeavor. No one should blame themselves as it was pretty clear cut; you either take a leap or walk the other way. I'm still shocked about all of this, really. Jpop would have been the last guy on my list to be in this type of situation as one would think he had all the prior knowledge of manufacturing, purchasing and distribution.
I see your points however not sure I agree with them all. I don't think I would put my faith or should I say hard earn money in any of the designers to go out and do the games from start to finish. They all worked at big companies that would hold fire to their feet and had resources galore to fall back on, and even in some cases get the design taken away and finished by others. To me there is a huge difference between artistic designing, programming great rule sets and manufacturing. Like I said if their is one individual that has all these qualities and can actually spend the time needed on each facet then whoa all the power to them. I however with 20/20 vision would think this is a long shot at best and I'm no gambler. I would look for the excellent design/art and table, however also do my due diligence on the person and or team to where their skills lie in programming and most of all manufacturing. If there is a huge hole somewhere in and amongst these count me out.
Zidware is dead Ice you know it and I know it. Lets be realists here shall we. And if you are waiting for a letter from JPOP himself then whoever the Angel from God is can't be too smart now can they
Yeti is around busy doing what he does best! Art work. This guy is one of the best out there, just saw his next piece of work and almost fell over. It's soooo good.
I am greatly disappointed where Jpop has left us all, and the fact is he bit off more than he could chew however they are people and as such I really don't believe some of these comments are really necessary or help the situation. This, I believe, was not malicious or purposeful so I will just stay positive and remind myself that both him and his wife are fellow pinheads and I'm almost certain things will be made clear soon.
frolic this is very typical of any business and or owners of that said business. Most think they are getting to the finish line and take salary till they wake up and see the runway has grown too short to get off the ground. Some realize this sooner than others however with the comments from Doug I am assuming he realized this roughly half a year ago.
The extra space and many other associated aspects are usually signed for a minimum of one year so if he only realized the runways too short 6 months ago when Dougie was there, he's pretty much stuck paying for those things till the end of their term. Taking business down usually takes far longer than taking it up unless it is done for you.
Unless there is a good plan in place, and all those who ordered get on the same page, I have a feeling SunKing could be right.
Wow, just wow Ben if that was the case then there would be no America as you see it today. Most entrepreneurs have been broke and in debt all their lives until they strike it big. Not sure of your last sentence grammatically hard to comprehend?
Yes agreed Ben some including me and frolic take zero cash to get business' up and going waiting for the payout at the back end. Unfortunately many people are not built this way and should always remain employees of a larger company with a guaranteed pay check . I believe this is the case here as people like jpop do not think along the lines of a true entrepreneur. We all know this now about jpop and hind sight is 20/20.
The law suit(s) could do in the customer as well, especially if something good is being done behind the scenes which is why we haven't heard anything as of yet. just saying
I am so glad you don't work for one of my companies! I would think in cases where legals are involved you might want to perhaps retract that statement
I just heard there are 9 Kingpins left. One up for grabs apparently for 60k ! Another sold for I think 47 or 49? I wish could play one hear a fun game too!
Were just the stupid ones that do no due diligence and just give our money away this is why we can do this in the first place
Quoted from Roostking:
I just want to know what some of you people do for a living that $24,000 can be sent to someone without anything but a promise and a reputation. I'm doing it wrong obviously
Guys I'm not gonna cry if the support is not there and hey all you can do is try. I am spending the time and effort to see if I can get this thing across the finish line that's it. All Pintasia profit from machines will go to the customers until everyone is fully made whole. I will update when more information becomes available and as soon as a JV can be reached, (if it can) with a proven manufacturer. No we are not asking for money up front from existing customers, and thanks to all that has helped us get to this point. We hope that we can help end this pre order model for good, it is one area we focusing on which is sucking the life out of this industry. If we have missed anyone on the email list that's involved please don't hesitate to pm me.
I figured was too soon... even though I am one that has suffered. just was trying to add a little light humor to the situation apologies
Quoted from Shapeshifter:
No manufacturer yet.
Can imagine Gary Stern sifting through this mess.
'Ok, just go and hire that Zombieyeti guy and we are good to go'.
Zombi is on board, no manufacturer would touch this with a 10 foot pole if John was in control, and we have had a month to get to this point. We decided to spend time getting the machine finished and out the door. It will be at the NW meeting in less than 2 weeks. We have people and friends manufacturing the rest of the parts all over the US and it will get done and driven across country for all to see. Things will be moving fast now and we hope to announce a manufacturing partner and programmer within a months time. We will do our best.
Quoted from sturner:
If this is the case, why was the first e-mail insistent on not suing Zidware? I mean you're just a third party that is not a part of Zidware as you say. Just a licensee who worked out an agreement with Zidware. Why make it a condition of the agreement that you can't sue a company that you are not a part of? Stern doesn't care if I sue Marvel over a dispute.
And who exactly gets their machines first if they are built? It appears there is an overlap between the members of this new company and current customers of Zidware. Are these going out in order of who paid first, or do the employees of Pintasia get first crack? I think it's a fair question if the money runs out before the run is finished.
I'm going to bed however to answer simply, if john is fielding law suits all day every day then we cannot get out of him what we need in these machines simple as that. We haven't even begun to figure out who gets a machine first but I will be last. If there are fully paying customers it would make sense to get there's out first so there is more profit to get to those with loss but we will cross that bridge after we know we have a manufacturing partner.
A lot of these concerns can be answered with.... we are not looking to manufacture we are here to put a deal together with people qualified to do so. If and when the JV can be structured, we will share it with customers first and then here as well. It should not take a lot of time to get to this stage. This is why we extended the dates on the contracts so in hopes to have something signed and in concrete before you decide to go out with the pitch forks. We will have a working game pretty soon and we have no intentions of keeping it under wraps it will be at as many shows as our schedules will allow.
As for Millionaire Matchmaker.....I was asked to do it and for this I got the production company out of LA and to my hotel in British Columbia. They had never gone out of California let alone the Country however lets just say it put the place on the map and business picked up significantly. I had a good laugh this morning, thanks
This process has nothing to do with any lawsuits whatsoever We were apprised half way through
Please don't hang me as this pic is some time ago. Ramps are getting done as we speak and will have them installed ready to go before NW show. They kept their factory open over the memorial day weekend as a favor to me and are almost there. All other parts that needs to get done are getting done now and should be ready baring any screw ups. Just thought would share with all, as I think its a beautiful game and really I don't have a friggin clue why it needed to be a secret or under wraps.
also that is a temp piece of paper where LCD goes. It is also ready to go. It should be flipping and scoring etc at show. All we can do is our best
The factory working through a sunday night and into monday getting ramps ready. Pulled in a huge favor here. A good man that can out himself if he wishes. You know who you are....Thank you!
Quoted from rai:
I'm still seeing empty cabinets.
Rai please read, these are older pics and we are doing our best to get this flipping in just another week or so, leaving time to drive it all the way out to the west coast and make the NW meeting. The children's eye Impailers (aka leg bolts) will not be on the final production game. Just like Godzilla will not be on RAZA..... or any other character that even invites IP discussions.
Thank you Ben we are leaving about 15 hours and I have set up people on the receiving end to tweak what they can after the long journey. There are an amazing amount of good pinheads out there helping me try and get it there. It will be tweaked till it does shoot smoothly regardless. Thanks for your help and direction Ben I respect the hell out of what you have done.
Zombie Yeti will be riding along with it as well and painting over the Zidware marks on the side of the cabinet. He should have it all blended in by the time he gets there
Aaron after our talks I was gonna ask if you could be on standby when it hits the PNW Its tight but should be there by Thursday as long as the Yeti doesn't get side tracked by all the Smitty's pancake houses on the way! I kid big Z !
Is the man opening shop and getting hell from his wife for doing me this huge favor gonna reveal himself? Another brother in this crazy place we call our hobby
Lowpeg. We are not going to commit to anything here yet. I am not the one who pissed anyone's money away and I need to bridge and talk to all the 17 or so people who paid this much for the game in the first place. Once they are satisfied (no one else) with what can be done we will then be bringing MG to a more palpable price. I have had a month and need more time but there will be a MG that competes and Pintasia's profits from these will then be circled around to all those down the line on different titles to make them whole as well. All I can do is try my best.
also to all those who moved up to MG collector to help get all those down the line paid back faster a huge thank you.
Quoted from NPO:
That alone will make the game more valuable and credible.
If I had to guess as to which trait will gain more there...probably credibility. As much as I am happy to see a remote possibility of hope here, no game is worth $16k. You might want to cut that price by about half for there to be any REAL possibility of a strong market backing your future endeavor.
Yeti's art is gorgeous, but it's not like the art is coming to life off the sides of the cabinet and interacting with you. THAT would make the game worth $16k.
Let me be very clear here: I hope to see you succeed, but $16k is a LOT of money for a pinball machine, and I, a mere peasant in this hobby and spectator of this situation, just fail to see hundreds of people dropping that kind of ca$h.
Stranger things have happened though....
I think you need to read my post again above, covered this
Look just bear with me. I don't build or manufacture pinball machines, I restructure to get things done and try my best to make it happen. I would not go into this unless i did my due diligence. Doesn't mean I will succeed, however I will always surround myself with the right people and keep the wrong ones at arms length. Once I have more to share it will be shared with all.
Quoted from lowepg:
Sorry, my ire wasn't intended to target you.
That would be like criticizing the junior officers on the Titanic for not getting people on the lifeboats fast enough! You are clearly trying to resolve a disaster that was NOT of your making.
However, you never get a chance to make another first impression. The first impression of this venture was that ill-conceived initial announcement.... The infuriating items in that note have been well-covered here, but it certainly started things off on uneven footing.
I hope for the best for the folks swindled in this deal.... Whether that means some new joint venture remains to be seen I suppose....
I am one of those who lost his money as well. Does it mean its a big deal to me... seriously all money lost is, however I believe there are some out there that are perhaps even affected more than I. The items on the first letter are designed by everyone involved including the lawyers however there has only been one letter to come from Pintasia and that is the one that should define us because ultimately that is the one that is being followed and was what the intentions were from us all along. As soon as a "joint venture" can be announced it will. If it can't I will hang my head, take my loss and sleep at night knowing I did all I could with the skills I have. I will be the first to apologize for wasting everyone's time. There is no conspiracy theory here that I can promise.
second one supercedes the first labnip. Are you in on one of the machines? Did we miss you in our communications? PM me and I will get you copies. I believe someone posted here.
Quoted from BackFlipper:
I think the "license" probably could have been acquired by any person here. I think John would have given it under two conditions:
1) Don't sue me.
2) Make games for people and give them some type of credit so they don't come after me.
Many songs are "licensed" over and over again by TV shows, movies and commercials. I really think any person here could go get a license from John under those conditions.
Here is the thing. Bill acquired the license. That's it, a license to try to make the games. I really don't think he is the bad guy here. Bill IS spending his own money to try to complete the first game. It was the furthest along so it makes sense. My guess is that he is investing about $100K to try to get that done. He is working with about 25 vendors to put a game together for the Northwest show. That's more than John could, or would even think about doing. It makes no sense for Bill to talk about RAZA and AIW yet. Let him try to get game 1 working.
Finally, Bill has to have some contact with John. He can't just cut John off. John has EVERYTHING on his computer, in his shop, and in his head. He needs that stuff to make ANY of the games. We all know John is a little "flaky." Anything could happen.
The following is my opinion - Bill is hoping he can get everything soon even with the risk that "John might go crazy and destroy everything" when all the lawsuits and attorney general letters start to hit. Then, John is bankrupt, and there is no chance that any of these games ever see the light of day. That is why Bill is asking for some kind of "stay of execution" on John. He is hoping to slow the tide over the next month to get everything he can from John. This is to protect all of the buyers. Somebody else will have everything.
Finally, this is a no-win situation for Bill. He did not buy the company. He does not owe anybody anything as such. What if he can make these games and sell them for $10K each? Then, he sends them to the first 15-20 buyers for free. They will still be asking him for $6K refunds from him even though he gave them exactly what they paid for (other than exclusivity). He didn't owe them the games or the $6K each; John is the one who might owe them something. If Bill sells 100 or 150 of them at $10K, the exclusivity is gone, but that is the price to be paid to attempt to move on to games 2 and 3. That will upset even more people.
So, my advice for now, take a deep breath and let Bill do his thing. Leave Bill alone and offer support to him. That's what I am doing. If he asks, I will go to John's shop with six of my guys TODAY and help to put a game together.
On John, I have no advice. Let your conscience, heart and brain guide you towards making the best decision for you.
It's really worth thinking about.
BackFlipper you just saved me a ton of writing thank you. Will you honestly go help and make sure the games are complete as he promised. no excuses all parts ordered and rest he has in his hands already please pm me as working hard from west coast.
Ben your exactly right. I don't mind spending the dough to get it there, then analyze if its really as good and smooth as it looks. Also if it is reproducible at a reasonable cost. I have people who will step up to give me those answers. At the least us customers will have one flipping game to split 165 ways and not one person needed to put up money time and resources to get it there (except me). Again, open book here and I'm drinking no koolaid. It is what it is and just trying to get to point where real educated decisions can be made.
By the way just to be clear there are many brothers for sure putting in there time its more figure of speach and i thank them all
Guy's we licensed the games and have borrowed the one MG to finish the damn thing that he seemingly could not finish himself. Once the game is finished we will all be able to see if its even worth making, and like Aurich said, shoots well. That wasn't gonna happen with John and in a locked building with blinds closed. The other huge step is to cross reference what John says is BOM to a factual one which I have the best of the best that are willing to help analyze when complete. At the end of the day, the customers, like myself, will have one more "complete asset" to sell if it proves to be not worth building. The machine is "on loan", this is how I look at it and it will be returned to all of us when and if I get it complete. It would be ultimately stupid of me to spend more capital let alone time building something so toxic no one wants to purchase. In the end it will be well over a 6 figure digit to get it complete and worst case scenario there is at least one complete Magic Girl that will be split with everyone that he owes.
Magic girl double that....thanks john Pin Pimp you deserve a medal of honor as those parts which are 1 of many were the hardest to get manufactured. Special tempered glass is easy but
Quoted from pin-pimp:
3k for each mold, fixtures and materials, not per full set. each mold makes 2 parts, 4 parts needed for this pin project. WC you know my numbers are good and tight! and i doubt anyone else could of pulled this off on a whim with nothing down and this fast
I know that's why I said damn you John , as there are many molds for the game especially when spiral has to be done in two different molds but hey you pulled it off and believe me there has been more decisions and work done in last 4 weeks than last two years. Big thank you pimp now go get that game for me I'm expecting at NW meeting!
Thanks Avatar won't engage with this stuff, however will have sunk over 100k in resources to get this thing finished and too the NW show. I said it's everyone's who have lost to Zidware...or donate to Vegas for all to see I don't mind, not my decision. This is worst case scenario, best is we get produced and filter profits back to help get everyone whole with a machine that Zidware should have gotten to us in the first place. Not looking for accolades just giving something back to what has made me happy most my life...pinball. Appreciate all those brothers who have stepped up as well we have some amazing people in this community and it wont be over shadowed by the few who have given it a black eye. All we can do is our best.
Here Honch what motives are you questioning? We have been extremely busy I can clear up most anything because some stuff is personal and not mine but shoot, its been a long day
The agreement or an outline was shared on the owners group on Facebook. Anyone who I spoke with or spoke with me that wanted to know and or what we trying to do was told crystal clear
no wasn't asking for money from any "customer", the date was a mistake from Johns letter and corrected in the second version by myself. if the 30 days went by with know signed deal I told those involved who I talked to would extend it another 30 days