Quoted from Multiball1:
I can only submise it's because he has extreme paranoia of Stern & others stealing his ideas and getting them to market before him.
Hope he remembered to get Gary Sterns cable disconnected so he can't watch Mars Attacks!
Quoted from iceman44:
And then for whomever wants the support, I'm going to Chicago, on my dime, and get this shit straightened out.
And I'm not going for a "looksie" John, get it?
If you go there after all this bluster and JPOP puts you in a headlock, gives you a wedgie and throws you out onto the sidewalk, it'll be the greatest thing to happen in pinball since the invention of the flipper.
Quoted from DCFAN:
The point is that we are talking about legal options here, not physical options. Ice is also a lawyer. He is not the one talking about physical violence, TOK is that person.
Yea, the text I quoted in my reply didn't sound like a threat at all. Thanks for cluing us in about the lawyer thing again. Its has only come up 175 times in this thread, Stevie Wonder and Hellen Keller might have missed it.
Quoted from toyotaboy:
You know, I was talking to Terry from pinball life (who's really business smart). It's sort of amazing how many people think they can start a pinball company. Building A (single) pinball machine isn't the hardest thing in the world (but still hard).
Building a volume production pinball (with cost effective volume parts), without errors (because that costs you money), and sourcing vendors, and figuring out the space, and tools to build efficiently, and figuring out how you're going to fund buying all the parts once you're happy with the prototype is a whole different ball game. You make mistakes on one, no problem. You make a mistake after ordering a hundred+ parts, unless you have a way to rework those parts (which is costing you time) you're eating that cost too. I'm only speculating here, but maybe some of the delay isn't artwork. Maybe JPOP is trying to design innovative mechanisms, but after running them on test realizes they aren't going to hold up, or there's no way to effectively mass produce them.
Think about how many complaints Stern gets for minor things, and they're experts at what they do because they've been at it for 25 years. New mechanisms go through hundreds of thousands of hours to get data on reliability. Now imagine a brand new startup. Heck, Spooky is lucky the only major error he made was not installing a post next to the scoop (which is easily remedied, and was caught early in production).
Really well said. The issue goes back to the information blackout. If JPOP found some issues, showed a couple pics and said "This is the first game with my name on it 100%, and I want it perfect!" people might not be super happy about the wait, but would understand.
The real fear I'm reading here is that people thinking they have been fleeced. The "working 24/7" thing is lame. If his endeavor is legit, it'd be nothing to take 2 hours once per month and show some progress pics and a little text update.
Quoted from Pinballmike217:
Super lame? That about sums up the 70 pages of worthless whining in this thread from people who have no skin in the game. Has anyone who has complained about JPop in this thread done more for pinball than he has? If not I urge you to go out and do better. Armchair quarterbacks are a dime a dozen.
Yes, the project is taking longer than anticipated but so what. Truly great things are worth the wait. This is just Big Bang Bar part 2, no risk, no reward. I'm anxious to see Magic Girl get finished but at this point it doesn't really matter if it takes another six weeks or six months. I say it will be worth the wait.
I can't do comedy like Bill Cosby, but that doesn't mean I can't say maybe he did something wrong.
Quoted from John_I:
What's the theme of this game again?
I propose ADD. Stuff keeps getting added, nothing gets completed and its also abbreviation of a disorder that functions as a pin name already abbreviated.
I think there is some kind of profound statement right there, but I'm too stupid to realize my own genius. Possibly ADD.
See, I did it again.
Quoted from Kneissl:
I'm sure excitement will build... whenever MG ships....
Hope I'm wrong, but the cynic in me says he's burned through the cash without shipping anything and knows he can't ask for more money from buyers.
What would send me running for the hills as an investor would be finding he was already selling a project that isn't built. Basically, I might have confidence in someone looking for money to start, much less for someone looking for money to continue a failed launch.
He's going to need to find an investor that is willing to take a high risk and also loves the project for more than just a paycheck.
Quoted from rai:
In fact Pinball is such a small market. I find it hard to believe anyone would go into it for the money. I can not believe JJP has made a dime on manufacturing side, Stern I'm sure makes money but with cost cutting, lack of PF supports, subtracting a spinner from a $4800 Metallica pro, plastic apron, skimpy voice actors and inadequate licenses and code etc..
I'm not saying all Stern games are inadequate as IM has full movie clips, Kiss and Metallica will have voices from the band members which is not cheap. But overall the trend at Stern has been to lower costs where possible. I can not help but think Stern could use a few more coders.
The total profit from selling 500 pins over 5 years (realistically can't see Zidware even doing that) is minuscule, just no meat on the bone.
Stern just moved to a bigger facility... I don't think they're cutting corners so they can turn a profit, they're cutting them to make a bigger profit.
I think its too early to say it looks cluttered with the paper ramps. The final parts should either be clear plastic or wireform and the sides of the spiral wont need to be as high. Being able to see through them will make a huge difference.
Will it ever get made? Hell if I know! Being unbiased, its refreshing to see something other than a few fan ramps and a center bash target.
Quoted from JoeJet:
Wow.. Imagine if this game actually got built and somebody's kid got their eye poked out with one of those. Great harm and great lawsuits all around.
Look around your room. You should see half a dozen things from pens to table corners capable of messing up a kids eye. Take all those away and the kid will stab his eyes with a finger.
Basically, you can't make it idiot proof, the world will always make a better idiot.
Quoted from fattrain:
Or just someone with a bank roll, who loves pinball, & doesn't want to see all the pre-order people get screwed because JPop is a great designer, but shitty business man. If only there was someone like that... Or is there already?
So you're saying the answer is a second shitty businessman?
I don't think it even matters who the "savior" is, because the deal still sucks.
Its such a brazen money grab that reading the letter made me furious. I'd have to eat the loss and devote all my energy to making sure Zidware and his secret cronies got hammered right out of the pinball business forever. Holy crap thats enraging.
Quoted from benheck:
What really boils my frog is if John paid himself anything more than gas station attendant wages for 4 years, he'll have pocketed more money NOT making games than I will make on the entire AMH run.
See why some of us get pissed at "classic designers" and "desirable licenses" getting a free pass?
The one difference is that you've spent the last few years building a great reputation, John has spent them destroying one. Can't put a price on that.
Quoted from Pinballs:
I don't think it's sunk in yet for people that it's definitively over now. People are going to have to pay for MG etc again, and wait 4 years, again, and receive nothing, again.
Whilst I understand that we desperate suckers will grasp at any straw going, the fact is that this is over. For instance, when Zidware is declared bankrupt, its IP will be sold, and that means the new company cannot use it. That is, they cannot legally make MG etc.
Any new agreements that people think they've made will be unpicked and voided.
It is now time to leave the casino, and stop listening to the conmen.
I see is quadruple the amount of people/companies involved. It sounds like they're basically starting with no money (possibly a lie) and whatever parts JPop fleeced vendors out of. Split up the amount of games to be made and that fact that all of these new investors will also want to be paid. With all due respect to Pinsiders involved, it doesn't add up.
This is a shell game, buying time just like every other pinball shell game. They don't need your money now, but after they string you along for a year the story will change. Just like now you'll keep buying in because "you've come this far". I feel terrible for the people that have tens of thousands of dollars in this, and I think this is where someone NOT invested sees things more clearly.
Talk is SO easy. Everyone does that well, and its even easier to swallow when you want to believe. You have one aborted launch now backed up by a bunch of people with no pinball experience, no factory, and working for free. It doesn't add up. Pull the ripcord on ever getting a machine, its not going to happen. Sue Zidware to oblivion and hope that you get something back out of it.
Quoted from Linolium:
The LE can be exclusive just by changing, say, the playfields background color from purple to yellow or something simple like that. Premiums vs standards could be something like removing a magnet or those spinning outline things. It doesn't need to be much of a change at all for the game to be different and thus more rare. It's all in the eye of the beholder... Look at stern's LEs vs Prems, really just some art change, no?
Worst way to design a Standard/Pro is to start with the game you really want to build and strip features. Thats how you wind up with a giant ugly Angus Young face taking up a quarter of your playfield.
These games already seem overpriced, even the Standard is going to have to above and beyond anything ever created. Ain't believin' it!
Quoted from Linolium:
Never said it was a good way to do things, I said it's a simple solution to the problem. The more complex of a change you make to differentiate things the longer and more expensive the timelines become. Do you reaaaaaaly want to wait x more months and be charged y more $ for a significant playfields redesigns and custom-bits production delays? Or would you rather have the games sooner then later in a more streamlined way?
I'd rather have one fully featured game at a fixed price than all the Premium/LE/Pro nonsense. That doesn't have anything to do with the JPop debacle though.
Quoted from Whysnow:
Just keep in mind that while you could be sitting with your thumb on the pause button, that the other side will be evaporating assets and making the books appears in order.
The only one you should presenting any amount if due diligence to on your proof of payment is your lawyer, the courts, and the cops. Jpop is a fraud 100% and the most flagrant evidence is him attempting to take deposits in the past 60 days when pintasia plan was obviously already in motion. Anything you provide to prove yourself now will be what they then amass in rear and using against you in court. Do not provide them with the opportunit to accurately fill in the blanks in Jpops bad book keeping! The poor book keeping alone is fraudulent.
Start asking what the real motives are for pintasia to come in at this stage, what risks he is not taking, what he has to gain in all scenarios!
Do not wait!
You were basically saying "whats that smell?" while your hair was on fire with Predator, even willing to bet one of your games that you'd have your shiny new machine in a month.
I know you say you learned, but you can at least understand why people don't respect your opinion on this, right? Sometimes it makes sense to just lay low.
Quoted from zombieyeti:
Now I'll let you back to the good stuff - conjecture and conspiracies
Seriously though - I'm hoping for the best for all involved here. But I'm finally through the grieving stages and can accept any outcome.
Bill is working hard for everyone and he deserves some slack during the process... I wouldn't want to do his job in this mess.
And worse case - I can always start back up on my secret backup plan..
lol. How about Tricky Bitch?
Quoted from chessiv:
I don't disagree that good intentions probably turned into intentional fraud. But I think we would both agree his stupidity led him to what may be criminal. My point was he didn't have criminal intent initially.
According to posts earlier in this thread, he was still trying to take orders after it was obvious the game was in trouble and not going to get built. If that is true (no reason to doubt it) that is CLEARLY criminal intent.
You don't get off the hook for starting out un-informed before morphing into a scumbag. Seems like ripped off everyone helping with the project too. That wasn't accidental.
Maybe for 16 grand they can have a dude in a jester outfit stand there and manually throw the ball of up the ramp for you.
Quoted from markmon:
The overlay is not Mylar. It's a lexan style protector with artwork. It's pretty neat. The thing looks like a smooth clear coat but can be easily replaced if any damage were to occur (we'll sort of easy maybe 2 hours of tear down).
2 hours? Did you possibly drop a zero there?
Space Shuttle is where I know that drain blocker from. If you don't draw the line somewhere, games will be getting called out for having flippers.
Quoted from limelime20:
Why is no one waiting out in front of his house, Jpop's and coming up to him.....Saying "Where is my money"?
And saying, "let me escort you to the bank to collect the money you took from me? just wondering ?
Probably because doing 20 years in prison for kidnapping and robbery is worse than not getting a pinball machine. It may be justified, but that doesn't make it legal.
Quoted from NYP:
You don't get to the top of Googles search engine overnight, I think it takes time for their little bots and crawlers and stuff to make that happen, all sorts of algorithms and stuff. If we do what vid1900 recommended and ad links everywhere we can and spread it around on as many websites as we can it should get to the top soon enough. Forceflow's idea is effective too, adding the link to the search engines crawlers manually by as many different people as possible will also help a lot. Maybe Forceflow can ad the link to that.
Maybe say that he got ass implants or a sex change instead of talking about pinball. That seems to be what most nitwits want to read about.
Quoted from benheck:
The phrase "rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic" never fit a situation as well as it does Zidware.
I agree with many above, they'll be very little to collect (as less with each passing month John keeps the lights on) but the longer he draws it out, the more he makes his personal assets a target. You'd think having a nice home for his young kids would be a bigger priority than his pride, but again, we're not talking logic here.
Even worse, its like he's rearranging them after it sank.
Quoted from frolic:
Wow, what is revealed as missing in the game is a sad conclusion to this opus.
We already know that John intentionally would not include an auto ball launch, so you couldn't even hack the code to do some sort of virtual ball lock for a multiball.
So this thing really is a flipping box of lights with barely any game.
A scammer trying anything to stay out of prison released a scam game. Stop the presses!
God, what fool would pay 20g's for that? The playfield looks like a 15 pound pile of clear plexi. It shouldn't be worth half that even if everything worked.
Quoted from Mr68:
Are we seriously talking about Jpop building extra non-working, incomplete games that are woefully short on code, with ball traps, missing parts, toys that don't function and pixelated playfield artwork? And this is just what we know after less than a week.
Sounds like a Kickstarter I'll pass on but good luck in raising the capitol.
Thank you... He just slapped these half baked hunks of crap together to stay out of prison and people are coveting them. It's frigging mind boggling.
Quoted from iceman44:
You think there is a shortage of rich people to throw money at shit? For the right guy, fixing this for Jpop is chump change
It's obvious right?
AP isn't the only option in the world. Unfortunately or whatever the case may be, John and his brand of pins isn't going away, especially now.
It's just a question of who and when, not if imo
Regardless of how much money someone makes, very few people want to squander it. If it was a well conceived, complete game that was rare for a reason like Big Bang Bar it's a completely different story than Magic Girl -a machine slapped together to try and escape a prison sentence. I think this game will go down as an embarrassing sideline in pinball history. Its worth more right now than it ever will be again simply because people are amazed it came out.
Quoted from Mr68:
I had this same thought and agree with a slightly different take. I don't know Jpop's personal situation but he could restructure assets and pull money out. He owns a home and I seem to recall at least one rental property. I'm speculating he could refinance his real estate, pull out cash and refund the money. Tap his wife's 401 or borrow family money. Then as you suggest, sell those spots again. Lawsuit goes away and he begins anew.
Without hard numbers, I agree. With MG delivered he could be within easy striking distance of curing his debt to everyone and padding his wallet. What might he owe at this point? A quarter of a million, half, three quarters of a million? That's chump change in today's environment.
And here's the kicker. Jpop only need pay off those 11 people that are presently suing him. Whats that, less than 50K? Easy money to raise.
Isn't that considered co-mingling funds? Maybe it varies state-by-state, but I thought it was against the law everywhere. It's usually done the opposite way, funneling business money into personal accounts which he has also probably done. lol
Wow, is there no working mulitball or anything? 10 minutes of loop and spinner shots with pretty much nothing happening. The upper right part of the playfield might as well not exist, the ball doesn't go there. Blech.
Quoted from MarkInc:
As incomplete as it is, it's a bit disrespectful to applejuice - he put in so much work, you can see it shine in spots.
The full review should help point out the missing bits and help them patch it up.
How is it disrespectful if stuff he programmed isn't accessible? The game is obviously half baked and people should be allowed to say so.
Quoted from Roostking:
Lol rich dudes talking about gut busting pain. If it was so painful, you guys would be dumping it for what you paid.
For some, I am sure it was torture, for others, not so much!!
I find that less irritating than the term "made whole". That sounds like something you'd say about someone waiting for news on a missing relative. I've only seen it used here, and for everything from full machines to $30 part deals.
Quoted from Mbecker:
Ha! It did just seem like chris found someone who knew nothing about pinball to interview him and write a hastily done piece that is essentially a retelling of the story in his words. Are a few people still interested in paying 20k+ for these? the hype died quick after they landed in homes
He spoon feeds articles to lazy writers. That's how he got multiple tech websites quacking that his 60 square foot bedroom with 3 machines was one of the greatest gamerooms in America. It probably isn't even in the top 3 gamerooms in his zipcode. Reading that stuff is cringe inducing.
Quoted from Cornelius:
The hate for Kaneda is ridiculous and immature. Even Robin hugged it out with him! It's time for Pinsiders to get over their anger towards the dude.
Yea, he's been bounced out of every arcade forum on the internet -including this one, for no reason. You're clueless!
Quoted from ChrisVW:
"When you tear out a mans tongue you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say".
Here's another cute saying... Don't shit where you eat.
My issues with him pre-date this forum. He was booted from KLOV multiple times, then creep-stalked me in PM's trying to be buddies like nothing happened. I basically did a forehead slap when he was given chance after chance here, stirring up trouble, creating multiple fake accounts and replying to his own messages.
I'm not sure what the dude's major malfunction is, but he's proved himself to be poison on any forum. Pinside gave him a ridiculous amount of chances, KLOV instituted a small payment policy since he kept creating new user accounts.
They should make him prove he can make magnets work on that pile of shit he dumped on the market before granting him any pie-in-the-sky patents.
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