Sorry for your loss........
There will be plenty of opportunity to get in on both of these pins. Clearly JPOP is out of money and will have to get these produced at the same time when he eventually gets a partner. Once the games are done, you will hear about the increase in production numbers, blah, blah blah........It was always his back up plan. Anyone in this project, should just be happy people will line up to offer their cash to save these projects. This is just sad..........Imagine he decided to do a limited version and a premium....The possibilities for you guys to get screwed are endless.
Quoted from Razorbak86:
Frankly, I don't think JPop would last 3 months working for Gomez, much less for Guarnieri.
I can see Stern possibly buying the IP somewhere down the road in an asset sale and making the games themselves, but I cannot imagine a productive business collaboration between Stern and Zidware, no matter how tight the contract.
When JPOP files for Bankruptcy, which will eventually happen, we will all ask ourselves how those buyers could have been so stupid...........The evidence is great, but the denial is even greater.
Quoted from Shrub_Light:
Did you read this entire thread? Many of the buyers including myself jumped in on this because of jpop's prior experience. So we're all stupid because we should of known a guy with 30ish years of experience was gonna flake out?
You could of said the same thing for any pre-order.
I have read the entire thread and the 3 others started prior. This saga has been going on for what seems like forever and I have been trying to wake you guys up for years. Answer me a few questions......Did you ask for a refund? Did you try and sell your spot? Did you pay JPOP a visit with a pair of scissors and threaten to cut off his long, lovely, locks of hair if he didn't give you your money back? What ever happened to real men? Sorry for your loss guys, I really am, but at this point, it's on you.
Quoted from ChrisVW:
Post edited by ChrisVW: decided not to be a dick...for now
You should absolutely post that and you are not being a dick for doing it. The truth is the truth, just make sure you post the whole truth. There were many stages to this project and many stages to the deposits. Things change as time and money fall by the waste side.
Quoted from Atomicboy:
Or to at least to continue operating the way he has for another two years until it comes up again.
Exactly.......JPOP doesn't need anymore creativity or any more cheerleaders, what he needs is a Boss and a business mind, i.e. Forecasts, budgets, timelines, deadlines, money and an army to put these together.
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:
Personally it wouldn't bother me at all if the number gets up to 50...but that's just me.
I don't speak for the other folks
I think it's more like 150-200. 50 only gets your R&D covered and that's being optimistic. The bulk of the cost is manufacturing the game.......Hence why Gary loves to say, "We are a pinball manufacturer". In the end that is where the costs are.
Quoted from Atomicboy:
I don't know man... I would think even more, but really I guess it's more based on the price per unit than the number of units.
That's also assuming anyone else would want to get involved at this point as well, which is ludicrous.
I am assuming $16,000, which was the original price. Crazy how little people understand about business, i.e., labor, overhead, margins, materials and manufacturing. 150 units at 16,000 is only $2.4 million? We are 3 years into this project? How much do you think John is paying himself and others that are working for him? Do you know how much programmers bill an hour? Art work is cheap compared to programmers. The code alone on this machine will exhaust some serious funds. In the end his margins will be lower because of his small production run and the fact he has to outsource everything. Do you think that his first game will be without issues????
Quoted from Atomicboy:
I'm agreeing with you, but saying that even 150-200 may not be enough, and unlikely he's getting even a handful to sign up to more now anyway. Seriously, $16k for a MG now??? Who the F is that stupid at this point - flat out! Not to mention all the pissed off original people, despite a few that might agree with it just to get it done, that will not be the consensus for all I'm betting.
It's hard to imagine anyone new signing up to ride the Titanic as it's sinking into the sea.
There needs to be a MAJOR change otherwise I do think you will see him going bankrupt in the near future. No one else will get involved, and *if* the money is dry, the project will be as dead as the horses being daily beaten here, along with everyone's vested interests.
Sad but true.
Understood. I was more responding to PDX who is clearly a cheerleader. It is very possible that JPOP would need to lower his price to get more buyers on board, which would require that he lower the price for everyone. How much of the $16,000 have buyers put down???? What a disaster.......
Don't worry, I am done. I have said what I have to say. I wish you guys the best with this, I really do, there is no bigger fan of JPOP's past work than me. See you next year when I will once again put on my "dickhead" cape and "douche bag" cowl on just to stir up shit and hopefully spark some thought on this unresolved issue.
Quoted from Aurich:
The reason I'm hopeful is that the more John is willing to let people help, and just focus on what he's good at, the better things will go. We have a great community, full of smart people with lots of skills. Just gotta form up like Voltron!
Great post!! +1,000,000
Not doubt Ice is a straight shooter........Just what this pinball project needs as JPOP appears to be anything but that. I have a feeling many more machines will need to be added to the production schedule to pull this off.
I think JPOP needs to sell his game assets to Stern or JJP. Let them finish the game and pay JPOP as a consultant with the power to fire him if he doesn't perform. It would kill him to see someone take over his baby which would act as motivation.
Quoted from benheck:
That "we will assemble it!" sounds like John Math...
2 round trip flights within US: $1000
Shipping machine: $325
2 nights hotel X 2 people: $400
Ben Heck 8 hours labor: $1000
Total: $2725 Net loss ($1725)
Math. The basic skill to have before starting a business.
Best post in this entire thread and basically sums it all up. People can defend JPOP all they want, but when you remove emotion and pride, the facts and logic prevail. From the beginning people just gave John too much credit. They assumed the games he designed in the past were 100% his accomplishments.........Wrong!! John was part of a team of talent, that many here so easily forget when they hold him in such high regard. I bet those same people would be shocked to know many of Michelangelo's greatest pieces were done by his apprentices, but he got all the credit.
Quoted from benheck:
John didn't like that I was helping Chuck out, since Chuck had a competing zombie game.
Not that I cared, wasn't my idea to be in the game anyway and I didn't have any creative input.
I'm shocked ya'll didn't get your pitchforks out a year ago, with that pointless KISS thing he clearly spent a lot of time on.
As a bystander that's where I lost faith. As an owner, that's where I would have lost my patience.
I agree on Kiss. I was surprised these issues didn't come to a head back then. I think what happened is the art looked so amazing on the Kiss machine that in some strange, twisted way, it fed the excitement of JPOP making machines. They related the progress of the Kiss machine to his other projects instead of realizing John was essentially out of control.......The "denial Koolaid" is powerful stuff. I think the disaster with SkitB is waking people up.....Although I would argue, they still have a long way to go before they are fully awoken. If JPOP doesn't work with Ice and show real progress, this story will get ugly real fast.
The problem is........For this pin to get finished JPOP needs to be removed from the project......Which is not going to happen.
Quoted from frolic:
He cares greatly about reputation, he's not going to want to be tarred with the same brush skit-b is getting and have that be part of his pinball bio for all of history. Maybe that can be the catalyst.
He is in way over his head and no one truly knows this situation. What we do know looks almost as bad as SkitB, minus the license issue........If I was anyone, I would refrain from defending him. Let John defend himself, let John explain himself........
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:
Omg. Nobody should agree to the 4 year "no sue" period. Time for all of you to file lawsuits, do not buy into this sham.
JPop is a complete loser. I'm sorry for you guys that are getting fucked by email. He doesn't even have the decency to talk to you guys.
I think they are hoping that people don't. Right now they want everyone to convert their deposit to Magic Girl.
Quoted from zombieyeti:
hey all - I'll chime in with one bit that may or may not help soothe the pain
I met with the 'Licensee' just 2 days ago in Chicago. Rather impromptu meeting after a root canal and a 3 hr drive on Vicodin/Ibuprofen... but I made it safely (I had just watch Mad Max Fury Road last weekend and was a bit concerned I might have to ram a few cars off the toll road - but i held off)... We had a brief phone conversation prior to that, but essentially I'd never met 'Licensee'.
In the few hours i spent talking with 'Licensee' I came away with an impression I did not expect. This is not an inexperienced 'Licensee' in the realm of high stakes & large scale business. Quite the contrary. The plans are lofty and achievable and well researched. And more importantly - coming from someone that LOVES pinball.
While the path to get someone of this nature involved in this project was the WORST possible path & many are deservedly upset and skeptical, I can only offer that this might be the best possible outcome for not only the Zidware-Victimized but for the pinball community at large. (And I dare say for John - knowing full well some may understandably not like that idea)
Now, obviously I can't say much yet (and I have yet to sign anything myself) - and probably shouldn't post this - but as someone who worked there ass off to make rad stuff for the owners/investors of MG, RAZA. & AIW - I just wanted you to know that I have the utmost confidence if things move forward (ie people sign and 'Licensee' can reveal) in the future of the work done and the work to come.
Lastly - for the cynical few (on a forum!?) - I'm always careful about putting myself out there and diluting my integrity and work (hence my hidden credit up till the adobe video) - so just know i don't say this without a bit of hesitation (ie I have nothing but initial contempt for large scale business ventures from past experience) but it's overshadowed by legitimate excitement and optimism.
In short - I think the end product is going to be MUCH better!!! And hell - I might even get paid for doing pinball work (i jest)
So my Zombie yeti friend, I assume you are now free to go work for other companies?? What do you need from us to ensure your art will make it to a game that will be produced in the next decade. As far as I am concerned, you are the genius behind JPOP. There is an army of us that will petition Stern, JJP or Spooky to make sure you stay in pinball. Heck I will write you a check.
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