(Topic ID: 92436)

John Popadiuk update thread……MAGIC GIRL, RAZA, AIW…..


By iceman44

5 years ago



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Topic index (key posts)

21 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 20

Post #20523 Link to legal documents with allegations & responses Posted by DennisK (2 years ago)

Post #20526 Third amended complain document Posted by c508 (2 years ago)

Post #20532 Summary of complaints & responses in legal documents Posted by DennisK (2 years ago)

Post #20626 MG is now ready! Posted by TecumsehPlissken (2 years ago)

Post #20631 Scott Goldberg mail on MG completion Posted by TecumsehPlissken (2 years ago)

Post #21819 Information on webpage dedicated to Magic Girl Code Features. Posted by applejuice (2 years ago)

Post #22024 moderation notice Posted by Xerico (2 years ago)

Post #22304 Photos of every page of the Magic Girl manual. Posted by vidgameseller (2 years ago)

Post #22584 Lion Saw feature information. Posted by applejuice (2 years ago)

Post #22710 Very detailed review from a game owner Posted by ShinyNick (2 years ago)

Post #22817 Details on the origin of the driver board Posted by Borygard (2 years ago)

Post #22957 Comparison photos between a MG 'prototype' and another shipped MG Posted by spfxted (2 years ago)

Post #23045 Pinball News first look review. Posted by Pinballs (2 years ago)

Post #23392 Ebay Auction for NIB Magic Girl #007 Posted by fattrain (2 years ago)

Post #23611 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by dgarrett (2 years ago)

Post #23615 Interview with Linda Deal (artist), speaking about CV and TOM Posted by toyotaboy (2 years ago)

Post #23754 The Deeproot link. Posted by pin2d (1 year ago)

Post #23946 Result of civil suit against JPOP Posted by rommy (1 year ago)


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#18 5 years ago

RAZA1.jpg

RAZA2.jpg RAZA3.jpg
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#21 5 years ago

I get the feeling that RAZA is going to have a CV feel to it.

#23 5 years ago

Zidware pop bumper.png

#26 5 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

Killer clowns? The girl is hot but let the clowns go.

I disagree.

Heard of Coulrophobia?

Clowns can be some scary shit!

#28 5 years ago
Quoted from RustyLizard:

Damn, those pics look familiar.

WITH ALL DUE CREDIT!

#45 5 years ago
Quoted from 2RustyBalls:

BTW Jpop asked us not to get on pinside or RGP and show his work.

#62 5 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

All this talk about artwork.. typical for a jpop game. I've owned and sold TOTAN, CV and Ep1; never had any interest whatsoever in owning a ToM. I kept WCS94, it's fun, happy and cheap. CV was fun til I realized I spent the whole game shooting just three shots - ramp, left orbit and Ringmaster. Hopefully jpop can get some good gameplay in these new machines to go along with the killer artwork. Right now I'm skeptical, but hope to be proven wrong.
And before all the thumbs-downers go ballistic (Greg?) .. ask yourself: how often do jpop games get used in top-level tournaments? Aside from WCS94's incredible PAPA run and Trent's all-CV Ohio Show some years ago, the answer is basically never.

Because of the rules. Not the PF design. Johns PF designs are mostly superb. I'd think it's not really his fault that the rules on some of his designs are lacking.

That said: who is doing the programming for RAZA? Is Ben Heck involved in this project at all anymore?

#71 5 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Maybe with total control now the rules will be better than Bally/Williams days? There is going to be some fun and cool stuff to shoot at!
I'll be posting some update stuff that shouldn't be a "violation" but should help sell some pins!

Like I already asked: 1) who is doing the programming? I'm assuming that JPop doesn't do programming, so I don't know if having"total control" is going to help the rules much. 2) Is Ben Heck still involved in this project in any way?

Seems like those 2 questions would be easy to answer, and certainly wouldn't violate any NDA.

#76 5 years ago
Quoted from rai:

Can't we just wait until it's revealed? John wants it to be secret. Talking about being not able to talk about it does not accomplish anything.

So the thread should be locked?

Quoted from Aurich:

My plebe non-NDA understanding was no, not in any way.

Thanks. What were the circumstances with Ben leaving?

And who is doing the programming?

#83 5 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Whatever, I don't care. Back to Jpop discussion, good bad and ugly. Not about me

Yes. So back to it.

My questions are still unanswered regarding who is doing the programming, and what were the circumstances regarding Ben Heck no longer being involved in this project?

Also, like GProtein asked, and I've asked before too, who will be putting these together? It's a small run, so it doesn't make sense to have Stern do it like PPS is with MMr, but 125 pins is still way too many to have just a few guys doing it.

#87 5 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

How is SkitB pumping out 250?

No clue. I don't follow the SkitB threads. So if you want to share, please feel free to tell me. Otherwise, I don't know what that has to do with this particular thread, unless JPop is using the same guys to assemble RAZA as the SkitB guys are using?

We aren't at production stage yet but I'm sure it will be a bunch of hamfisters and idiots doing the job.

Yeah? That's not good for a custom, high end $10k pin, is it?

Good point. And I really don't know who is doing the programming right now, yes it's happening, but most likely a total idiot wouldn't you think?

Why would I think a total idiot is doing the programming?

I ask what should be a damn simple question, and this is the response?

If people don't even know who is doing the programming at this stage of the project, this thread will be even more useless than I thought it would be.

#88 5 years ago
Quoted from chessiv:

Nothing like publicly trying to break an NDA. Usually people do that sort of thing in private

Not sure if you were responding to my questions, but disclosing the name of who is doing the programming is not a violation of the NDA. Nor is disclosing who is going to be assembling the pin.

#90 5 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Then don't participate in this "useless thread", no major thumbs up action here, just ignore and move on….you've exposed the worthlessness of this thread, congrats...

You say the programming "is happening" but you don't know who is doing it?

#91 5 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Not sure if you were responding to my questions, but disclosing the name of who is doing the programming is not a violation of the NDA. Nor is disclosing who is going to be assembling the pin.

Iceman, you gave me a thumbs down for that post?

Does that mean that you disagree? Are you saying that it would be a violation of the NDA to disclose the name of the programmer or who is assembling the pin?

#101 5 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

We are all well aware of what you and Greg think, no need to stoke the BS over and over again!

I'm really starting to think that this is a troll thread that you started. Seriously.

I've asked completely legitimate questions that should be easy to answer, and all you do is get personal and super defensive, with answers like

Quoted from iceman44:

I really don't know who is doing the programming right now, yes it's happening, but most likely a total idiot wouldn't you think? Aren't you glad you bailed out? Maybe it will never get made and/or code will suck. Happy now?

What kind of response is that? Can't you be calm and not take things so personally? Again, these should be EASY QUESTIONS TO ANSWER. Not one's that incite the kind of responses that you are giving.

#104 5 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

All legit questions by you guys, see my RESPONSES, I have concerns, get that?

If you think that our questions are legit, then why did you give some of the responses that you did about the programmer "being an idiot, don't you think" or the pins being assembled by "hamfisted idiots"?

Those don't sound like responses someone would give if they thought the questions were legit.

If you don't know, just say you don't know. Then there wouldn't be all this back and forth nonsense.

2 months later
#214 5 years ago

If I were still in on RAZA, at this point I would be asking for some very specific answers with regard to a timeline/estimate as to when the pin will be done and ready to ship.

Given that the original estimate for completion was the end of 4th quarter last year, I would think a fairly definitive answer to this question could (or at least *should*) be given by now since we are in the 3rd quarter of the following year.

#217 5 years ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

Which I prefer to him pulling a finished date out his ass and missing it again and again and again

I understand what you are saying, but this far into the project he should be able to give an estimate without it being pulled "out of his ass".

1 month later
#371 5 years ago
Quoted from Pimp77:

Yeah...I thought for sure MG would appear.

Me too!

#382 5 years ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

if this is for real, and that back glass has to be redone...
wow. -and not in a good way.

Was wondering if someone else was going to say that. I was thinking the same thing.

I like the artwork on the cab a lot (although I think the alien has far too similarity to another alien), but that backglass doesn't look good to me. Too busy, with little standing out. No "wow" factor.

If he has to re-do it, I think that's a good thing.

#385 5 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

That backglass has been revised dozens of times, that is probably one of the most documented things on the blog.

Perhaps a dozen revisions too many?

11
#461 5 years ago

I think showing up at Expo with empty cabinets this late in the game is a major fail. How could that have not been done at last years Expo? Or the year before that? It's an empty cabinet with the side art on it.

What's the point? I mean I know you guys that have preorders in have more info that what JPop showed (empty cabs) so I guess I don't see the point of this.

#483 5 years ago
Quoted from Erik:

I think it's likely that by next expo it has an entirely new art package

Yep.

But the entirely new art package he has the year after that will be even better!

15
#618 5 years ago

Did I miss something?

This thread has exploded.

Looks like the RAZA and MG owners who have been patient as hell are finally getting fed up given the joke of a showing by JPop at Expo. He sure seemed to be proud of those empty RAZA cabinets though!

A lot of this is a real disaster, and some of it I am really having a hard time comprehending. Seriously, some of the original MG owners weren't even aware of the fact that JPop is increasing the production number on that pin?! That's completely inexcusable.

Then the RAZA artwork. WTF? Is it a zombie pin, or an Alien pin? Or a robot pin? Or a Godzilla pin? How can the main focal point on the backglass be an alien, not a zombie?

I seriously hope that you guys that are in on this have a hell of a lot more information than those of us who aren't in have. Because from the outside, things don't look good.

Those empty cabinets at Expo are a perfect metaphor.

#621 5 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

That sums it up right there as I've been saying. I run a business, I rely on others to do my marketing and creative work.
If you are like me, it's been LONG ENOUGH, its time for some definitive answers.
I'll say it again, he used a "production timeline" in our original packets to sell us. I want an update and schedule that he holds himself to. Period.
Who's doing the code, how are they getting built, and after all of this time, where is the $$$ coming from. Don't like it, I don't care, send me a check. I don't need a pin that bad.
A great experience is turning into total frustration. Expo set it all off and was the straw that broke my back. I'm now in on TBL, out on TH (and getting a refund check, imagine that) and on the fence with TWD. Also love Alien.
How about that, with ALIEN, they actually have a production schedule! How did that happen?
Well if you click on their webpage you can count 13 employees, I'm sure one of those is a bookkeeper.
As the saying goes, its time to shit or get off the pot. No more eggshell nonsense. NO EXCUSES.
I love the guy and what he's done and is capable of doing but enough is enough.
The whole idea of the NDA at this point is a JOKE, take a look around, other guys are building pins without worrying about what kind of IP he has or doesn't have!
I'll have more comments tomorrow. I just don't think it does any good on the blog, especially if he will control the comments.
If you don't agree with me then feel free to publicly denounce me!

Great post, coming from an ardent JPop supporter who has shown a great deal of patience and has been very optimistic about these projects.

Too many other great options coming up to put up with this.

#704 5 years ago
Quoted from cyber:

About two month ago, when I was in England, I bumped into the guy whose name used to be on the zombie game. I talked to him about pinball machines in general and his collaboration with JPOP. He said it was a pleasure to work with him and he really enjoyed it. As this guy is a freelancer he started working also for another pinball manufacturer and he said because of that JPOP ended the collaboration.
If I look at all the video this guy posted (live sessions with him and JPOP building cardboard playfields and mechs) the project went along very well. After they split not much happened anymore ...at least not in public.
I think JPOP is a brilliant mind which has great ideas and good designs but he needs people to assist him in implementing his ideas to material. He needs someone besides him to push him to get forward and stop him from fiddling around with small details which does not help to get a finished product put together.
The guy I talked to said he really hopes there will be something coming from JPOP ...but he's not very confident right now (status 2 months ago).
I think JPOP really needs help. Someone who manages him maybe?.
He does not have the WMS people around him which helped him to end a project.
However, I still hope I will ever see one of his projects in real. Everything which came from him was special ...and I liked it a lot. Let's hope there will be more special stuff to come from him.
And of what I read here he may realize that he needs assistance. And maybe he will get back to the other guy I talked to to ask for help? Well... we will see! Good luck John!
Post edited by cyber: there were some typos ...maybe there are still some left

I'm assuming the "other guy" is Ben Heck?

10
#742 5 years ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

There was 100% refunds to a certain time (which has past) to obtain a refund your spot most be sold to another buyer. It's not ideal but it was the terms given in the beginning.

A contract is a two way street. You can't just bind one side to the terms of a contract and not the other.

While the terms of the contact indicated that there would be no refunds allowed after a certain date, there was also a timeline given for certain production milestones, including build dates and delivery of the pin.

Since those dates have come and gone, there is a breach of contract. As such, anyone (ANYONE) who has put money down is entitled to get their money back despite the terms of the contract saying the money isn't refundable.

The obvious caveat would be if there was a new contract agreed on where a new production schedule was set forth, signed by the buyer and Zidware.

I'm not advocating a lawsuit by anyone, but if a buyer were to ask for a refund and they are denied, this would be a very quick and easy Judgment in their favor if it ever had to get to that point.

#762 5 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

Obviously, those suggesting legal recourse of some kind may not have fully evaluated the likelihood that JPop enjoys limited liability through his entity he formed (at least I assume he formed an LLC if he took the time to have NDAs crafted).

Huh?

What does the above have to do with anything in terms of a lawsuit? Just because it's a LLC means what? The LLC (Zidware) would be liable. Not JPop personally. So?

What am I missing here?

#806 5 years ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

your missing nothing as long as Zidware has the assets left in the company to pay out the creditors. I'm not sure with US law but up here it would be on a pro rata basis.

Exactly.

And that's how it is with any pinball manufacturer. Seriously, who the hell would be stupid enough to start a pinball company without forming an LLC?

Again, the fact that JPop has an LLC has nothing to do with whether or not a suit should be filed. Nothing.

It's the LLC that has the money that was put down. Not JPop himself.

#813 5 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

I respectfully disagree. If the LLC has insolvency issues the juice may simply not be worth the squeeze - I guess this depends on whether a potential plaintiff can find someone willing to take the case on a contingent basis which in my view may be unlikely.
How much in salary do you think JPop has taken? Possibly a good amount over the three years (obviously I do not know this but it would lead one to assume that solvency may be an issue if it comes to litigation).

I am confident that we are talking past each other.

Please understand my point, which is the fact that Zidware being LLC has zero to do with anyone considering a lawsuit to recover their deposit having second thoughts because of that fact.

Nobody is talking about insolvency! We are talking about a simple suit to get a deposit back. From the company it was paid to. That's Zidware, which is a LLC.

You are acting as though nobody should file suit simply because it's an LLC. That makes no sense at all. A few people filing suit to get their deposit back isn't going to cause Zidware to be insolvent. If it does, the problems are bigger than we thought. But even then, the fact that it's an LLC has nothing to do with it.

You seem to be implying that if JPop's personal assets were available, only then would a suit make sense? As though JPop is a rich guy or something?

#815 5 years ago

^ Well said.

Again, though, I would say that a few guys asking for a refund of their deposit shouldn't put Zidware into insolvency. If it did, that means the pins were probably never going to be finished anyway.

Obviously if there was a "run on the bank" where everyone started demanding their deposits back, there would be an issue of insolvency.

10
#834 5 years ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

I am feeling way better today in light of JPOPS recent blog posts/pics. I can honestly say after everything that has transpired in the last 48 hours is that if John offered to refund my money on RAZA I would decline! I'm staying in and have renewed faith in the project.
The game will be worth the wait IMHO.
Big thanks to all the owners for standing together and basically speaking to John with one voice on this, I am confident that he got the message.

I'm glad that you guys lit a fire under John's butt, and that he has responded in a way to make you happy.

But from someone who was formerly in on this, and now looking in from the outside, my 2 cents at this point is that you guys should all be getting a new schedule with dates for production milestones to be completed.

This was done in the original packet/contract, and those dates obviously no longer apply. Get a new schedule from JPop. He's almost 3 years in, he should be able to give a much more accurate schedule at this point. This would help keep his feet to the fire, knowing that he has to have certain things accomplished by a certain point.

Otherwise, you guys are all still in the exact same boat that you were before, and we could be having this same conversation again next year.

Maybe he did give a new production schedule in his recent blog posts? If so, that would be great news.

#913 5 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Here's an idea: John meet Jack, Jack meet John. John: "I hear you jettisoned your designer Balcer last year. I have pins, need production"

That would be fantastic for all involved.

#971 5 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Jpop created a bubble...even some of those in the bubble were getting antsy & wanted to sell their spots.

As one of the original buyers when RAZA (BHZA at the time) was announced, I can tell you that one of the main reasons I got out was due to the complete lack of any information regarding the status of the project. There was no communication at all. If wanted to know something, you had to call or email John. Half the reason I got it is because I wanted to have fun, "enjoy the ride" so to speak, by watching things develop and progress along the way. When it became obvious that this wasn't going to happen, it just didn't make sense for me to stay in.

Things have apparently been a little better since I got out, with John posting some things on the blog etc. but it still doesn't sound like there's a whole lot of info being provided, especially in terms of pictures, which is probably due to his fear of being copied (some might call it paranoia).

#987 5 years ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

Bummer! To think what might have been

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That's bad ass!

#1013 5 years ago

Well, you JPop preorder guys can at least take some solace in knowing that you aren't the only ones who are having issues:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/predator-a-scam

#1017 5 years ago
Quoted from Nibbles:

Rob, you are the white knight of pinside Christ man, you either like stirring up shit or just troll on the weekends since you have nothing better to do.

Thanks! I do my best.

2 weeks later
#1079 5 years ago
Quoted from rai:

article on Jpop, I do think his cabinets got ignored at Expo, I mean look at that art.
http://pavlovpinball.com/john-popadiuk-pinballs-steve-jobs/

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The art with aliens and clowns instead of Zombies?

#1089 5 years ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

Even going back to the original flyer for the game it was clear there would be Zombies, flying saucers & Aliens. I love the blue alien girl but still hope "NEB" gets tweaked..... We shall see

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Aliens and saucers are secondary to the Zombie theme in the flyer. Quite contrary to the side cab art.

1 week later
#1163 5 years ago
Quoted from boo32:

http://gamecenter.nyu.edu/three-questions-with-john-popadiuk/
Jpop posted this link on facebook. An interview in three questions with jpop. In one of the questions, the interviewer says you have magic girl to be released in 2015 and retro zombie to be released in 2016.

What's interesting is that the 2016 quote, as you say, comes in the form of the question, not in JPop's response.

So where did the 2016 date come from?

Jpop didn't correct him though, so.....

#1202 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

dug up the timeline from the owner's package.

Basically, we're 50% done the process, as outlined by the milestones.

We're somewhere around:

Playfield Whitewood
Software Start

Whitewood / Software Start is on the schedule as Q4 2012.

If I were still in on this, I would be livid that the only progress made to this point is a basic whitewood. I'm not even sure it's a flippable whitewood at this point?

Either way, a whitewood at this point in the timeline means it is 2 years behind schedule. How the hell does it take 3 years to do a basic whitewood?!? Yes, I know that other things are done as well like the cabinet, but still, this is really further behind schedule than I thought it would be.

The way I see it is that many RAZA owners are going to be watching very closely to see what JPop does with MG and his big "reveal" that is supposed to happen next month (December 2014). If that doesn't happen, the natives are going to get (more) restless.

If MG is revealed as a fully functioning pin and it blows everyone away, it will have a positive impact on what JPop is doing and give RAZA owners some level of confidence as well. Just how much confidence is another issue, since revealing a full working proto of MG is still a long way from producing and shipping RAZA.

#1288 4 years ago
Quoted from Cheeks:

I have found it odd how many people that don't have any money invested in this have so much pent up to say about it. If you aren't a buyer I just don't understand how you could have any more than a passing curiosity.

#1299 4 years ago
Quoted from Multiball1:

** Your MG will not be in your gameroom in the next few months, but I don't think by end of 2015 is at all unrealistic.

Wow. Still another year for MG?

#1332 4 years ago
Quoted from kaneda:

Which one pin cost 27k? And YIKES! What do you get for that much. That's insane. Must be an amazing pin.

13
#1350 4 years ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

Good grief Kaneda give it a rest dude!

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Most annoying poster on Pinside.

#1367 4 years ago
Quoted from ChrisVW:

When the number was upped to 50 last time there was a refund offered.
If he changes the contract terms again, who in their right mind would ever sign up for another one of his preorders? If you deal in the collectables market and destroy the collectibility, as a business you're done.

Exactly.

If that's what he did (and I have no reason not to believe that's what happened) there is nothing that would prevent him from doing the same thing with RAZA. Nothing!

There has been talk about how it would be a good thing if JPop could hook up with a company like JJP to come in and actually build the pins for JPop, as this would speed things up a lot in terms of getting the pins made and out the door once he is (finally) done designing them. But my fear would be if this is done, it would be easy to feel like he should increase the number of RAZA pins as well in order to recoup more money/increase profit. He probably didn't feel comfortable trying to make more than 125, but if a company like JJP teamed up with him, this would no longer be a limiting factor.

That would suck for the guys who have been in on this since the beginning. Actually it would suck for all who are in, regardless of how long.

#1373 4 years ago
Quoted from Coyote:

But is that the main reason folks are/were buying these? For collectability?

Speaking for myself (I was one of the original buyers when this was announced as Ben Heck's Zombie Adventureland), I got in because 1) it was a chance to get a Zombie themed pin, which was my most desired theme; 2) JPop was going to design it, meaning it would have excellent artwork and the pin would shoot great; 3) it would be unique and collectible

1 week later
#1525 4 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

I call total BS until some proof is given. Make an allegation like that, provide details and prove it.

You know that you can't prove a negative, right counselor?

#1566 4 years ago
Quoted from ChrisVW:

40% chance - Game revealed to owners only. Reminders of NDA still in effect and general disappointment because owners can't talk and the community can't see.

Wait. What were the specifics in terms of what JPop said that the "reveal" would entail? Where is it going to take place? I thought this was going to be some type of public reveal at a show or something?

#1569 4 years ago
Quoted from ChrisVW:

No details provided other than Dec 17th and that it would be a Lebowski style "rug" reveal.
I don't know what that means. I don't think John has seen TBL movie, so I doubt he understands that the rug is a plot point in the movie and I hope he doesn't actually put MG on a rug. That would be a facepalm moment for sure.

I always assumed a TBL "rug" style reveal would be similar to what DP did at Expo, given how impressed JPop was with that presentation/reveal.

A reveal consisting of nothing more than pictures would be an epic disappointment.

#1581 4 years ago
Quoted from fastpinball:

John and I have gotten to know each other over the years and we have an NDA in place to allow us to speak more freely about our respective endeavors.
That is all that is appropriate to share in a public forum.
Aaron
FAST Pinball

Crock.

#1589 4 years ago
Quoted from fastpinball:

My NDA is there only so we could discuss ways we may work together someday. That's all.

So you have an NDA in place even though you aren't working together?

Makes perfect sense!

#1595 4 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

pure fantasy, what are "damages" again?

This is the bottom line, and is why NDA's like those in place with the owners aren't really worth the paper that they are written on. Like you said, the only leverage he would really have would be to issue a refund and say "no pin for you".

I know that the NDA that I signed certainly didn't include a liquidated damages clause.

#1647 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

The burn is the lack of communication, and the avoidance of simple questions.
I don't know why every boutique pin manufacturer takes the same page from the same playbook and goes dark with the "well, I can either spend all day answering your questions or I can work on the pin, what do you want?". At least Jack when he was making WOZ was out there showing the work in progress, even if he was missing date after date.
With Hobbit is was always Dec 2014 release and if they don't make it, they're close to it, and everyone has seen the game and it has been playable at a few shows.

These timelines are very interesting to watch among all the manufacturers (except Stern). When will TBL be released? Everyone seems so positive that they know what they are doing, can do no wrong, and will deliver the pin on time. Why? They haven't manufactured a pin before.

Nordman just quit Heighway Pinball based on losing sleep over people putting down deposits based on him being the designer and being told Alien would be ready by April 2015, a date that he doesn't see as possible.

SkitB is already far behind schedule, and it remains to be seen when Predator will see the light of day.

MMr was supposed to be shipping by the end of the 2nd quarter, so they are already half a year behind.

It's going to be interesting to see how close to their shipping estimates pins like Alien, TBL, MMr, and even Hobbit will come.

#1662 4 years ago
Quoted from rotordave:

I don't know about gods, but they just have the intestinal fortitude to man up and get the f#%king job done.
The older I get, the more I discover most people just aren't prepared to "get the job done". I could regale the group with plentiful stories .. But I'll spare you.
Someone said above that the JPOP games have reportedly had 3000 hours spent on the artwork.
Now, working that out, that's claiming that someone sat at a computer/pad NON STOP for 75 full 40 hour working weeks. That seems pretty unfeasible to me.
75 working weeks, you should be churning the freaking machines out the door.
rd.

I love the "man up and get the f#%king job done" attitude, but there needs to be some balance as well. I think Andrew Heighway has this attitude, but it may have led to the departure of Dennis Nordman from the company.

#1735 4 years ago
Quoted from kaneda:

I think we all should wait until the reveal. Lots of "same old" posts everyday on this thread.

Thanks for your valuable contribution to the thread.

#1803 4 years ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

Wow
The amount of negativity, wrong information spoken as facts, and just plain bullshit is sickening.
DRAIN topic
Good luck ladies and gents

I think it should be obvious by now that anyone who is in on any of the JPop pre-orders have to have thick skin and be able to take things in stride.

I'm confused by which post resulted in you suddenly becoming so upset that you feel the need to drain the thread?

#1817 4 years ago
Quoted from pinstor12:

did the refund policy change, like the game?

As far as I know, the refund policy never changed.

I don't remember the exact amount of time/dates, but the original deposit (made years ago) was fully refundable up to a certain date. After that date elapsed, refunds would no longer be available until that spot was sold. As Frolic said, originally there was a list of people waiting to get in, so even after that date, refunds were still not much of an issue.

As more time has elapsed, with little signs of this pin shipping any time soon (especially with MG nowhere to be found), combined with all the other new offerings coming out (including TBL etc), fewer people are on the wait list (if any) and people find themselves having to sell their spot in line themselves, usually without success.

If JPop was able to come through with an amazing "TBL effect rug reveal" with a fully working protype of MG, you'd probably have more people willing to take a chance on RAZA and buy a few of the spots from people who want refunds.

At some point, though, this is going to come to a head, and if more meaningful information isn't forthcoming in terms of when RAZA will be shipping, you will have more people getting to the point of *demanding* a refund (vs. "requesting" a refund) and that's where things could really start to go bad.

Frankly I think a lot is riding on MG and it's big "reveal" (some photos sent only to MG owners does not constitute a "TBL effect" reveal).

#1825 4 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

That said, have a little patience people, the tables will be turned very soon, he is going to have to ask for more $$$ soon, my guess is right after these "reveals". That's when the rubber meets the road.

I forgot that he still has to ask for more money from you guys soon.

That's when things are really going to get interesting. The good news is that for anyone to pay up, it means that he has provided some meaningful information to give a certain degree of confidence to make that additional payment. Right?

14
#1926 4 years ago
Quoted from ChrisVW:

Unfortunately that's about the most relevant thing about the reveal so far. Still haven't seen the game.

Please excuse my French, but YOU HAVE GOT TO BE FUCKING KIDDING ME!

So the "reveal" is only to the few owners of MG, and even they don't get to see the actual game at this point?

I don't think the word "reveal" means what he thinks it means.

#1927 4 years ago
Quoted from Pimp77:

2 years? What is it now, 4 or 5 years on MG?

It's been 4 years for MG.

#1929 4 years ago
Quoted from TaylorVA:

breathe in....breathe out.....breathe in.....breathe out...

I think there's a great song in there somewhere!

#1938 4 years ago
Quoted from Mr_Freshie:

He is asking for money, for AIW. Got my package the other day requesting another 2g.

#2011 4 years ago

It was a mistake for Cointaker to get involved in this to begin with. I don't know how much money they were going to make on each CT version, but I doubt it was worth the risk. I assume that CT simply forwarded the deposit money that they received to Zidware? If so, it is highly unlikely that CT will issue any refund until they get the money back from Zidware.

I would think that the people who ordered through Cointaker are in a slightly better position than those who ordered direct from Zidware, as they are a more proven company that would have liability for the refund on top of Zidware.

Those who bought from Cointaker: who did you make the check payable to? Cointaker or Zidware?

I wonder what kind of company Zidware is? LLC?

18
#2086 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Dude, who are trying to fool? He's never going to build games. It's time for people to just face it. It's been years, he's taken money for three titles, and he's still not showing the first one. And he has the balls to ask for more money for vaporware title 3, and build fantasy KISS games, and put up a host of bullshit broken websites for all his other vaporware games that will never happen. That's your money he's wasting doing that.
He doesn't have a "working game". I'm sorry to use this analogy, but you sound like an abused spouse. You say "if he keeps avoiding giving hard dates" like this isn't the pattern he's followed the entire time. He did the "baby, I can change!" speech, promised a big rug reveal, and then ... nothing. It's time to face what's going on, that you're sending money to someone so he can play in his sandbox, and cut yourself free.
Designing is the fun part. That's the playtime. The rest is hard work. A LOT of hard work. He can't even finish playing. It's done.
You're just prolonging the inevitable, and wasting your cash. I doubt you'll ever see a dime back, and that sucks. Cointaker shouldn't have gotten involved, they're a legit business, maybe something will happen there, I dunno.
Best of luck to you all, but I think it's time to stop dreaming and figure out if you can rescue any of your money, or at least save yourself the pain of sending him more.

.

Quoted from Aurich:

I feel terrible and embarrassed when I'm a week late delivering my translites because they're delayed at the printer or something. And I don't take a dime from people until they're ready to ship, I don't even have their money, just my promise to take care of things as fast as I can. Makes me feel like a jerk. I can't believe Jpop gets up every day, wanders into his studio (which I hear is fucking huge) and starts dreaming out his fantasy half naked cosplay girl bowling game, while asking people to buy him coffee so they can hear his wisdom. (You know who you are, sorry, had to throw that one in there.)
It's just pinball. We all love it, but it's not the freaking Mona Lisa. This isn't a 40 year epic journey of a master craftsman. It's a guy who was a junior designer at Williams trying to live out his dream of still making pinball, promising people the moon (I haven't even said a word yet about the ridiculous bullshit he promised people was going to be animated on the LCD screen at Expo, you guys all know that's utter bollocks right?) and meanwhile doing his pinball designer masturbation into piles of your cash.
I'd be afraid to show my face at Expo if I was Jpop. I'd be ashamed of what I was doing. Dude is so self unaware though that instead he waltzes in with empty freaking cabinets, with art that he doesn't have permission to use, a translite he won't let people take photos of, and then has the gall to tell people to just check out how bad ass the *hinges* are! Because that's the problem collectors of ultra rare pinball have, they're so tired of folding down the heads on their precious games with standard hinges.
Sorry, I'm starting to rant here. But he's giving boutique pinball a bad name. He's the poster child for irresponsible overpriced bullshit. If he ever ships all the Magic Girls and I haven't keeled over from old age I will personally donate $100 to Pinside. Feel free to remind me, I've lost a bet on here before and donated happily. My money feels rock solid safe to me.

I would like to respectfully nominate these back to back posts by Aurich for the Best Pinside Rant of the Year.

Where do I send my ballot?

#2103 4 years ago
Quoted from rs812:

I keep reading over and over the description of this situation as an "investment" in Zidware. My question is, how exactly is any of this considered an "investment?" Is it because the games will presumably quadruple in value, if and when they are released, due to their rarity?
I don't see anywhere where stock or interests in the company Zidware have been bought, sold, or traded. But for the presumed immediate appreciation in value of these games upon release, how is sending money off to purchase a game in any way, shape, or form an "investment?".
I have purchased NIB games on several occasions, but I have never considered it an "investment" in stern. It was simply a transaction for the purchase of goods. I paid, they delivered. The best I can tell, a very important part of the bargained for exchange of goods herein appears to missing.

This post is a bit ridiculous, off topic, and misses the point. It's amazing to me how so many people on Pinside now get so completely hung up on the word "investment".

It's pretty simple, really. Anyone who paid money into this project (on a pre-order basis as nothing was built yet) is invested in it's success. Whether they intended to make money or not is of zero relevance to this fact. The payoff would be receiving the pin.

#2109 4 years ago
Quoted from slapshot:

Where is PDXMonkey on here with an update, didn't he fly out to the reveal yesterday?
Who else went?

He bailed on the thread because of too much negativity.

#2111 4 years ago
Quoted from rs812:

That's why is asked it as a question, rather than a statement. Now I remember why I have avoided posting on pinside for some time.
Carry on.

Seems like you made plenty of statements in your rant.

Carry on.

#2116 4 years ago
Quoted from TaylorVA:

What exactly are people expecting to see? People with preorders are actively trying to get out of it so there can't be too much to see.

Expecting to see? Or wanting to see?

Big difference.

I think many were not expecting to see a major kick ass "Lebowski effect" reveal of a completed/fully functioning prototype of MG, but I think we were all really wanting to have those expectations proven wrong.

This thread would have a completely different feel to it if there was a kick ass "reveal" of MG.

#2175 4 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Let's stop all the "lawyer up", "scorched earth" BS. That's stupid.
Nobody wins there, and the attorney general, you gotta fucking be kidding me, they will laugh your ass right out of the place. We were/are willing buyers and he is still in some sort of progress, even though he's slower than a turtle.
It might be fun to rubberneck and throw gasoline onto the fire that is the Jpop bus exploding in the ditch, but its not gonna change a thing.
Us "owners" are gonna have to exercise a little more patience despite what the drive by paparazzi want us to do.
When he asks for more money. It's simple, say NO, when our pins are ready to ship you get the remaining balance. PERIOD. If he can't do that, it's game over and life goes on.
That's the state of the union and the position we are in. The rest is just BS!

If I were still in on BHZA (now RAZA which seems to be a very different pin than the one that I signed up for), I would be agreeing with you on this. Not having any money down on it can certainly result in having a different perspective.

Looking at this from the point of view of still having money in, I certainly agree with you that it is too soon to go the scorched earth route (lawsuit) as that would have a snowball effect (you would certainly wind up with multiple parties/plaintiffs joining in, wanting to save money on attorney fees by splitting the bills) that would doom the project for sure.

Having said that, I would concentrate on nothing other than demanding answers from JPop in terms of getting a new timeline for completion of various aspects of the project being completed, including expected production and delivery dates. (edit: funny, thinking about it, I said the same thing the last time that this thread exploded 2 months ago...)

If he doesn't stick to the new timeline, I would set some personal drop dead date for having enough information to know that the game would be shipping. If that date came and went and there was no indication that shipping was imminent, I would go full blown legal action (with others). You just can't let this go on forever, even if the money is gone, you need to put a stop to the charade.

Discovery in that case would be fun. I'd like to see him try and use his NDA as an excuse to not answer interrogatories!

#2259 4 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

What you guys really need is a full accounting, inventory and budget (the budget would be tied to some timeline. Here is what I would ask:

1) How much money has he taken in total from customers to date?
2) How much capital did he invest into the company from third parties or himself?
3) What is in the bank account as of today?
4) What is his cash burn rate monthly?
5) How much is his salary (broken down by each year of the project)?
6) What is the outstanding accounts payable not yet paid?
7) How much is left outstanding in pre-order money from people who have signed up (this is his only AR)?
Does he intend to contribute capital to the company moving forward and if so how much and when?
9) What are the assets of the company (mostly equipment I would presume)?
10) What is his inventory?
11) How much in parts does he need to build out MG in total? How about Raza?
12) What will the labor costs be?
13) Costs to pursue patents further and other weird intangible costs?

Once all this is answered you guys can decide the next step...and whether JPop is able to build the games even if he is inclined to do so.

Do you think there is even a small, tiny, remote possibility that this information would be freely given by JPop?

Not a chance. If you want this info, there is only one way to get it: filing a lawsuit.

Quoted from benheck:

I can't speak to all of the reasons John changed BHZA to RAZA. Some customers didn't want me on the game, just zombies, which I understand.
But part of it had to be his displeasure with me working with Chuck who has a competing zombie game. I wasn't even part of Chuck's game (just AMH) but I guess it was close enough?
John doesn't seem to understand Zombie culture anyway. Mars Attacks and Robots? That has nothing to do with Zombies! Pick ONE genre and stay true to it, that's what I did.

Couldn't agree more.

#2268 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

It's not hard to guesstimate the money he's gotten these last 4 years, it does not add up to a lot. Then start deducting expenses, like that 3,000 hours of art, and everything else. Combined with not giving people refunds, pretty easy to conclude there is no money kicking around. lawsuits are pointless.
All I'm left with is the public shaming to try and get some answers and hope he can turn things around. Failing that, make sure everyone knows not to send any more good money after bad.

Well said, and my post should not be construed as a recommendation for filing of a lawsuit. I was just saying that there is no way that JPop would ever give out that info on his own free will.

#2347 4 years ago

So funny, that Adobe video was the most exciting thing we've seen yet (without being at his shop in person).

1 week later
#2633 4 years ago
Quoted from John_I:

At this point this whole situation is the very definition of insanity. I really don't think he could have completed one game including the rules, software, sounds, music and animation. The fact that he is working on three games is...insane. Sure he can design the layout, hardware and the art package, but that is only part of the game. I remember the prototypes of WOZ where the lights flashed and you could beat the ball around but there were essentially no rules. If even one of these JPOP games actually makes it to the paying customers as a beat the ball around prototype like that I will be surprised at this point. Truly glad I don't have money in on this and never did. Anyone who has money down and is not a billionaire should seriously take a step back and think about this logically.

Have you even bothered to read the recent posts by owners in this thread?

Your whole post is a bit over the top, not helpful or insightful, and implies that the owners are a bunch of idiots as they aren't thinking "logically".

Thanks, though, for letting everyone know that you are "truly glad" that you don't have any money in on this and never did.

#2639 4 years ago
Quoted from John_I:

Yes, I have read them all. I did not mean to say they are idiots and apologize if that is how I came off. What I did mean though is that anyone with money still in this might be caught up in wishful thinking and rationalization at this point. It is rare that I agree with Iceman, but I think he is on the ball here.
I am also not trying to say that I am smarter than those who ever had money in this. If this had been Steve Ritchie or Dennis Nordman I might have gotten in. I simply don't like any of Jpop's previous games well enough to throw my money in. So my decision was mostly a matter of personal taste way back in the beginning (along with sticker shock).

Thanks for the response. I enjoy the vast majority of your posts, so the prior post didn't sound like what I would expect from you, so your explanation above makes a lot more sense to me.

#2656 4 years ago

I saw that and thought the same thing.

#2694 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

Even Spooky, who we all cheer for getting things done, took a good 6+ months from announcing the final game and taking orders to shipping the first customer's game. Everyone else is way behind that.

What is even more important regarding the above is the fact that per Ben Heck, he had already been working on what became AMH for quite some time (I can't remember for sure what he said...but I am pretty sure it was more than 6 months) before Spooky even announced that game.

I know Ben reads this thread occasionally so maybe he can chime in?

13
#2701 4 years ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

Can we not kidnap JPop and force him to design games at Stern or JJP?

I think it's the other way around: I.e., you would have to force Stern or JJP to hire him.

#2729 4 years ago
Quoted from thedarkknight77:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/who-would-buy-a-zombieland-pin-from-jpop
You should absolutely post that and you are not being a dick for doing it. The truth is the truth, just make sure you post the whole truth. There were many stages to this project and many stages to the deposits. Things change as time and money fall by the waste side.

Reading that thread is interesting.

Here is a post that I made...more than 2 years ago (damn time flies!):

Quoted from RobT:

I don't know about 5 years, but the things that you mention above played a very large role in my decision to get out.

Plus the fact that we BHZA buyers haven't heard anything in terms of what is going on with the project, no group/discussion forum for owners......nothing....didn't help either.

Just too many unknowns for me at this point in time, with nothing to give me reason/confidence to stay in and risk more money since I believe that payments from this point forward (November) are now non-refundable.

Finally, as Pinlawyer said, I do worry about what the code will be like. They don't have a Keefer or Lyman working for them.

I'm taking my refund and will apply it towards a high end restoration of an AFM. It will actually cost more than BHZA, but at least I know exactly what I'm getting.

I think the theme and artwork on BHZA is going to be phenomenal when it is released, but virtually everything else about it is up in the air..

So no communication 2 years ago.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Oh, and this was posted more than 2 years ago too:

Quoted from jpop:

We are working hard to get the first 3 MG protos built now

#2792 4 years ago
Quoted from Redeyes:

Maybe if u had some of your own $$ invested u would take this more seriously and stop making jabs at us owners. Your posts seem very antagonistic and non helpful Again just looking for helpful info thanks!

I thought he was an owner?

#2798 4 years ago
Quoted from MXV:

With so many lawyers on this board I find it hard to believe no one has found a way to get their money back. File a lawsuit if you have to, surely one of the people claiming to be a lawyer on this board could do this.
I hope everyone gets their money back somehow or the game they paid for someday.

I dunno, maybe the lawyers are smart enough to know when filing a lawsuit *isn't* the answer to getting a refund?

It could have a domino effect.

1 week later
#2948 4 years ago

Will JPop even bother responding to emails anymore? Does he respond to anyone who sends him an email asking for a refund? If so, what does he say?

#2960 4 years ago
Quoted from ChrisVW:

Nothing. Ever. His voicemail has been full since November and doesn't answer the phone. He doesn't comment on blog posts answering questions or respond to emails.

Wow! It used to be that you could call him on his cell phone directly. Or email. Now he doesn't respond to either, and his voicemail has been full since November? And no response on the blog?

I just don't even know how to respond to that. I am sitting here wanting to type out how I would feel and what I would do under these circumstances, but it just seems like it would pale in comparison to what you guys who still have thousands of dollars on the line are actually experiencing.

Quoted from iceman44:

He doesn't respond to shit, nothing, emails, blog posts, calls, nada. Not a F ing thing.
So.......it's about to come to a head. I'm gonna start posting everything from the blog and then if he has the balls to take me off of there I'm going to start the "process"........

Seriously, I didn't even realize that it had actually gotten this bad. I definitely empathize for how you feel, even knowing that you didn't want to go that route.

I can't believe that he has bailed on you guys like this.

Quoted from Hwawonyu:

Just fn sad. This brings me down hard. Sorry : (

Agreed.

#3032 4 years ago

^ I lol'ed

27
#3037 4 years ago
Quoted from mcluvin:

The brown mark down that dog's backside looks like balls and a penis.

Capt._Obvious.jpg
#3220 4 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

The timeline is totally meaningless. I could make up a timeline of building the next Space Shuttle. Doesn't mean I have the know how or funding to do it.
I do not believe JPop has the know how or money (left) to build what he has committed to at this time.

And this is what the owners will have to think about and decide what they believe in terms of whether the money is gone or not, and whether RAZA can ever be made.

If the owners decide that the money is probably gone and/or that RAZA can not be produced, it would make no sense to be satisfied with a written timeline from JPop.

My concern is that if the money is in fact almost gone, JPop has incentive to come up with a written timeline that he swears that he can and will comply with, which may very well only serve to further delay the inevitable, and eat up even more of the deposit money with it. Meaning that when a lawsuit is filed after he once again fails to comply with a timeline, there will be even less money available in whatever "pot" is left.

I'm sure that the owners will all be discussing these issues in private, hopefully with Doug (Ice).

#3279 4 years ago
Quoted from StevenP:

Imagine if JPOP had complete control of the design of a pinball machine from the feet up, with no short schedule

That's the entire problem. Nobody has to "imagine" anything.

#3445 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

I know I have no money on this, and people paid seriously big bucks for an "exclusive" game, but even so, I think ultra limited games are lame.

Lame how?

Face it, the only way that people were going to pay this kind of money up front was based on the promise of exclusiveness/rarity of a JPop designed pin. It's a risk/reward calculation. The risk is high (that's even more obvious now) but so is the potential reward. MG is going to be much more rare than RAZA, thus the higher price. The addition of more MG's to the run would piss me off if I was a buyer. I would hope that JPop got the other owners consent to do this, or offered them a refund.

#3449 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Lame in that all that work just to make a bare handful of games that will be squirreled away in private collections just doesn't fit my personal spirit of pinball

The horror!

The "pinball for all" mantra doesn't work for everyone. JPop isn't Stern...and doesn't want to be.

-2
#3490 4 years ago

4 years later and the PF artwork isn't done?

#3495 4 years ago
Quoted from HighProtein:

Intellectually bankrupt statement, it's obviously complete by now.

Why is he showing it like it's something new then? Didn't make sense to me. A picture of the PF should be old news by now.

#3673 4 years ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

Uhhh....Day #1 It's not ALL about Zombies
- Zombies
- Mind eraser
- Go Go girls
- Retro bots
- Swirly coaster ramps
- Zombie bowling
- Flying saucers
- Gloo gun
- X Ray goggles
- 3 D glasses
- A lucky cat
- Tilt-a girl
- F86 Sabre jet

Nobody ever said that it was *only* about Zombies. But that was most obviously the central theme. If it wasn't, I wouldn't have ordered it.

I see nothing in your list about Godzilla or Robby the Robot, or the Mars Attacks alien. And the backglass shown briefly at Expo had the Alien as the main feature, not a zombie. (see post #1700 by Frolic for the pic of the backglass).

The main focal point of RAZA no longer appears to be zombies.

#3677 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

I actually think it's a cooler looking game now because of that, but I totally get that people who signed up for something might feel like they got screwed by the mid-stream theme switcheroo.

I completely disagree about it being cooler looking because of that.

I thought the backglass shown at Expo was terrible.

#3679 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

The zombies feel tacked on now though.

Bingo.

4 weeks later
#4074 4 years ago
Quoted from jwilson:

You're not investors, you're just customers. And customers are the lowest point on the totem pole.

Agreed, but I wouldn't be surprised if in JPop's mind he is equating "investors" to "customers".

Wouldn't make much sense in the context of that post though. I'd be asking why he's looking for investors at this late stage of the game? Did he just now come to the realization that he won't have enough capital to make the pins?

#4077 4 years ago
Quoted from Baiter:

I doubt he would mistake the two. By definition customers get product in return for money, investors get money in return for money.

I understand completely. Just not sure if he does. I just don't understand where the "investors" thing came from? Is this something new? What kind of investors is he talking about? Bank loan? Equity partners? Is the project in jeopardy if he is not successful in getting investors on board?

#4128 4 years ago
Quoted from DevilsTuner:

Of course you did because you likely know the Avatar name reference. I was gone for two years. Stayed in the shadows and watched pinside turn more and more into rgp. Glad actually it just proved I was not the ultimate evil like some thought.

Yes you are, Ben.

#4177 4 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

OR he doesn't have any $$$ left which I find hard to believe.

Not that hard to believe.

#4230 4 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

Pizmo,
Attorneys to do what ? Get blood from a stone?

If you saw the recent discussion about the money received vs. the admittedly loose estimates of what money could have been spent thus far, there should still be money left. For now.

If so, personally I think taking legal action sooner makes more sense than waiting longer.

#4236 4 years ago
Quoted from DevilsTuner:

Would there be a statute of limitations in something like this? If so when would the clock start on that? The day you made final payment? Not sure how civil stuff works but I suppose a case could be made criminally if someone can prove he never intended to deliver? Again No idea.
What recourse could be taken? Just a group action asking for Games or money by date x?

Generally speaking the SOL is 4 years from the date of breach of a contract. I think RAZA was supposed to be delivered by Q4 2013, so there's still a lot of time. Like I said, though, I do not think waiting much longer is the smart thing to do.

#4290 4 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

2) Start off with one plaintiff, ideally somebody in Chicago or the surrounding area to begin putting pressure on Zidware to start listening to us. Send a "demand letter" and wait the appropriate time, 30 days here in Texas, before filing suit and requesting legal fees. We would sue Zidware Inc., and John personally. Given how he runs things, I'm confident we would have a chance at piercing the corporate veil and holding him personally liable. He would use OUR $$ to defend himself.

The problem with this option, as I see it, is that it will not do much good for anyone other than the one plaintiff, because the easy way out for JPop on that single claim is to simply issue a full refund.

#4350 4 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

There won't be any scorched earth because there will be no lawsuits of any kind. It's just not reality, what lawyer would waste his time on such nonsense and who would pay him? Nobody gets a pinball machine and only the lawyers get paid.
That said, I just got off the phone with John, spent the last hour and a half with him.
There is a ton of misinformation out there.
He's not moving at the pace everybody would like, which he fully acknowledges, but there is a ton of stuff to show and reveal that will be done by opening up the Blogs on each project to everybody so they can see for themselves, and him adding additional stuff to it.
News flash, John has an accounting firm that handles all the tax issues and reporting. He does have the cash to build our pins with the remaining deposit money due. I told him to use me as a resource from that standpoint and he plans to take advantage of it.
We talked about firing himself from the $15 an hour work that an assistant does and focusing on what matters. That is easier said than done for a non business guy. He's had an assistant that he had to get rid of because she got nothing done timely!
I'm an excellent judge of character and John is the farthest thing from a scammer, con artist, etc. That's MY judgement after speaking with him for that length of time.
John is a good guy that gets his feelings hurt and that's just the way it is, I told him what I think and how he should react to the negativity and criticism, including from myself. Don't retreat, embrace it head on, full disclosure and "don't let the bastards wear you down".
There are people working and helping to get things done. John's no dumbass as a designer and there is a shitload of stuff to conquer, i.e. JJP Like Jack, he's not the master of communication or thinking things through.
John and I agreed to talk at least WEEKLY, with updates and whatever help I can provide him from a legal, tax and financial standpoint. I'll pass on whatever info he gives me.
Anybody can feel free to call him, don't be intimidated, he's a great guy.
It's time to put the pitchforks down, you will get an incredible pinball machine at the end of the day.
For the record, he hasn't paid himself in months and offered to allow me to verify that claim.

That's the most positive, uplifting post in this thread in months! Good job Doug.

Hopefully the weekly conversations will serve to keep everyone informed and satisfied about the status on the project.

Regarding the tons of misinformation being out there, I hope he realizes that that is largely his fault and that he will do a better job of communicating so that doesn't continue to happen.

You know how badly I want to see JPop succeed with these pins! I was originally in on RAZA for a reason.

#4401 4 years ago
Quoted from jwilson:

Iceman's update can be summed up as: "Trust me."
Why? What actions has he done to generate that trust? There's no mention of time lines in that response, no mention of *why* previous deadlines were missed, no explanation of what's actually done at this point. It's more hand-wavy nonsense about "it's all good" with nothing explaining *why* it's good, other than "trust me."
It's just yet another stall tactic without facts or numbers.

The way that I read his post was that he *was* provided with some explanation of why deadlines were missed that made sense to him. But those reasons were not stated in his post.

22
#4513 4 years ago
Quoted from StevenP:

Honestly, I would recommend that current owners not cancel--yes, there's a wait list for both games so it won't materially affect John's situation, but I honestly think you'd be kicking yourself for a long, long time if you did cancel.

At the risk of pissing some people off, I will call bullshit on that one.

People have asked for refunds without success. If there was a wait list for both games, refunds shouldn't be an issue. Also, there was a thread where one of the owners was trying to sell his spot at a decent discount....nothing but crickets. If there was a wait list, why wouldn't someone on that list buy that spot at a discount?

#4529 4 years ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Typical lawyer talk is all. While it's true there is a wait list, he failed to say it was a wait list, a refund wait list.

Well...just for clarification....I'm a lawyer too.

#4536 4 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

He's Jpop's IP attorney only.

Is it StevenP?

#4540 4 years ago
Quoted from rotordave:

God save us all from this plague of lawyers!
rd.

Do you know the difference between a catfish and a lawyer?

One is a bottom dwelling scum sucker..

...the other is a fish!

#4549 4 years ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

I'm very optimistic about MG and RAZA

We know. You always have been. You even vowed to "drain" this thread when you felt there was too much negativity regarding the project. You've never waivered.

#4560 4 years ago

The artwork on MG is amazeballs.

Incredible stuff, really. Hope it sees the light of day!

#4632 4 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

What IF there were "pro" versions of MG and RAZA somewhere way down the line?

IMO, that completely defeats the purpose of these limited run "boutique" pins.

Plus a "pro" run implies that these things can be run on an assembly line and cranked out like crazy. Negative.

#4638 4 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

I agree its a negative for a least the first two, can't please everybody, but I wasn't thinking about Stern pro numbers on a huge assembly line.
200? 300 extra? I don't know. Just a thought.
At the end of the day, the numbers have to work out to survive.
Isn't Andrew doing 500 Alien LE's? I should know, I'm in on that one too.

Surely you aren't comparing what JPop is doing to Heighway?

#4639 4 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

Actually the best route may be to keep these two games limited as promised. Deliver and amaze and then open up Alice as the big run.

I agree Dave.

At the same time, we are really getting ahead of ourselves!

#4788 4 years ago
Quoted from epthegeek:

It's kind of sad that its come to that, really. John started with PROC. Had a full time programmer that was making great progress. Should have been able to put the pedal down and get things done with a fully fleshed out framework and an eager contributor.
But John had to be John. He wanted a new version of the PROC, without paying any development or testing costs tailored to his specific needs. He didn't get that so he decided to make his own, and throw a whole wrench into the works costing time, effort and money. Then, for whatever reason, he stopped paying the guy who was doing the code. That guy stuck it out for a while, then he gave up, as it was his full time job and he has a family to feed.
I've heard from a bunch of people that tried to work with and/or help John on these projects and not one of them relates good stories or news. John may be a great designer. Very creative and all that. But he really needs someone in charge. Someone to say no. Someone to set budgets and timelines. Without that, I fear any new effort in any direction will just be as wasted as all the previous years.
We'd all love to see John's games finished, I'm sure. But just having one gung-ho guy with a brand new untested boardset and an unfinished software framework that lives on the other side of the country is no magic bullet as long as things continue on the path they've been on.

Assuming this is accurate (I have no reason to believe that it's not) why would FAST be so eager and willing to jump on board? I appreciate that Aaron is a big pinhead and wants to help the community and this project in particular, but if he does get involved and has the same type of experience referenced above, it's not going to work for long. I'd hope and assume that Aaron would have some significant (face to face) discussions with JPop before taking the plunge.

Still disappointing to think that the hardware hasn't even been decided on after all this time.

#4793 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

I think it's helpful to look at this as a business decision. Aaron isn't a charity.

That was pretty much my point!

#4807 4 years ago

What's JPop's current hardware platform for MG and RAZA?

#4824 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

If John posted this on Oct 21, 2014 about Mission/FAST :
"We were able to solidify an ongoing working arrangement with Mission Pinball and Fast Pinball guys from Seattle last week. Effectively doubling our backend team. "
What is the hold up today?

.

Quoted from Aurich:

I mean, basically John was lying and that was bullshit. There's not really a nice way to say that. Well maybe there is, I think Aaron said it nicely earlier. But that's the clear way to say it.

Amazing.

Supposedly FAST was on board 5 months ago according to JPop. Only they weren't.

#4990 4 years ago
Quoted from Frax:

*edit* I'm not going to get sucked into this stupidity.
Why was Generica moderated and not anyone else?

You mean like your idiotic comment posted here:

Quoted from Frax:

<insert one of many many texas political failures to "get shit done" here>
Texas is the storm wall against the Hurricane of common sense...

Thanks for your contribution.

#4993 4 years ago
Quoted from Frax:

And yours is just as valuable.

I'm not the one who posted stupid political shit in a pinball thread. You did.

#5059 4 years ago
Quoted from 6S3NC3:

Get money back? haha. I had to bail after my first payment due to Hurricane Sandy and John never sent me my refundable deposit back. I have called and emailed many times. As far as im concerned I’m still on the project bc he has my deposit. Everyone getting their money back? That’s a good one.

You had grabbed my spot after I bailed. I remember your posts talking about getting out after the hurricane. I didn't realize that you never got a refund. That's bad enough, but even worse under those circumstances.

#5060 4 years ago
Quoted from boo32:

I have priced flights and looked into filing and suing him myself, but I didn't want to start a run on the bank

I'm guessing that most owners don't want to see a run on the bank. Yet, behind the scenes, quietly, I bet a lot of owners have requested a refund. Undoubtedly without a response. So chances are that a run on the bank has already occurred.

#5078 4 years ago
Quoted from Honch:

Don't worry, I'm sure his lawyer will show up any day now and tell everyone that everything is fine.

And that there's a waiting list!!!

#5097 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

It's not a good thing that either would fail. But I feel like Skit-B's failure could have a bigger impact on the future of boutique pinball.

Not sure if I agree with that.

How is Kevin, who is nothing more than a pinball hobbyist like the rest of us on this forum, failing at making and delivering a sub $5k pinball machine out of his garage, more of a negative impact on the future of boutique pinball vs a very well known pinball designer, who made some of the highest ranked pins ever while working for B/W and has a high level of pinball experience and cashed in on his reputation by asking $18k and $10k also failing?

Seems to me that logic would have said Kevin would be much less likely to be able to come through than JPop.

Quoted from Aurich:

rankly I'd rather that both projects somehow made it, and that at the very least people were able to get most of their money back. But it feels like we're reaching a tipping point there.

Yep, especially when you combine them. Both high end and low end "boutiques" failing is bad for the hobby. Throw in a sprinkling of TBL license issues, and a tipping point has probably been reached. Hell, might as well add the difficulty that JJP has had getting pins out the door in a timely manner as well. Or PPS for that matter.

I hear that making pinball machines is hard.

#5109 4 years ago
Quoted from jarjarisgod:

To the people who have skin in either game, the ripple effects will be just as significant whether it was John or Kevin who was the one taking their money and doling out false hope.

For sure!

But I took the question to be which one's failure would have the more negative impact on (boutique) pinball as a whole.

I think a pinball legend going down in flames trying to make pinball machines has more of a negative impact than a hobbyist going down in flames.

#5140 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

On the latest C2C podcast, there was a reference to John making mention about how beat up he gets on Pinside. Is that the way he sees it? That Pinside is just a bunch of internet haters beating up on him?

What's interesting about that comment from Nate is that it would have been for his 100th Podcast, which was August 2014.

So if he thought he was taking a beating on Pinside back then, what is it that he's getting today?

Quoted from iceman44:

Haven't heard podcast

You and this thread are specifically mentioned in the podcast. You are now famous!

15
#5253 4 years ago
Quoted from woodworker:

Wait a minute...

So who is telling the truth here?

They are both lawyers, so I vote that they are both full of shit!

#5256 4 years ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

The no refunds might be a new decision

lol

#5266 4 years ago
Quoted from YKpinballer:

Haha yeah 1k to have jpop assemble the machine plus room and board for a year

I literally lol'ed.

#5307 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Yeah, the truth is, as Aaron found out the hard way, you can get burned trying to help someone who's got issues. I dunno if John is the liar Kevin is, but there's a reason he hasn't shown shit yet. And you can't just swoop in and change him into a new person.
I think you should walk away, so should FAST and Mission, and realize you can't save the world. This is all on John, not you.

I'm not going to go into the issues that I have with Aaron/FAST again (it was covered in the Predator thread) but I will say this in terms of how it relates to Ice: it is two different things. Ice has money invested in this as a buyer. He isn't someone who hopes to gain a business advantage by having JPop succeed like Aaron/FAST did with Skit-B.

Ice's only goal here is to get the game produced. He has shown that he can be just as critical of JPop, publicly, as anyone, even after talking to JPop personally.

That said, I completely understand what he's saying about being concerned of possibly getting F'ed by actually getting involved and trying to help. Terrible position to be in for sure. No good deed and all that stuff.

#5373 4 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Even if we haven't ordered one of these games, we're ALL invested. When these things become shady and ultimately crash and burn like Predator, it causes a negative ripple effect throughout the whole hobby.

Exactly.

I thought the predator fiasco would have finally put this ridiculous notion that people shouldnt post an opinion if they "don't have any skin in the game" to rest once and for all. Guess not.

#5390 4 years ago
Quoted from gweempose:

John is very talented. No doubt about it. He would have been a perfect match for a company like JJP.

I'm guessing that JJP disagrees with that last part.

I love JPop as designer though.

#5427 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Good lord, the balls on this guy. KISS, now AIW. All that time spent on design, and working with the artist, and cutting foam core etc. Meanwhile game one is sitting there, unplayable.
He really has zero intention to ever give anyone a game doesn't he. Just wants to sit in his studio playing with toys.
I take back what I said above, forget tacking on a year, that's way too generous. These are never going to be done.

I told someone who is in on RAZA and got starry eyed after the MG blog was opened and got a bit of a confidence boost with Iceman, Mr.68, and FAST getting more involved with JPop, and therefore was going to "stay in", that in my opinion, best case scenario would be 3 more years before RAZA would be shipped.

I still think that's the best case scenario.

#5436 4 years ago
Quoted from John_I:

You are more optimistic than I am. Maybe I am just jaded by the whole Predator situation which just unfolded, but I do think we all *want to believe* in these start-up companies to a fault. To me the parade of employees and suppliers who seemingly all have not been paid, including Chris from Cointaker who is a "friend" of John's, is a hurdle that could be impossible to clear without immediate action. This project is dead without new/outside help, management, software coders and manufacturing talent. What competent and capable person(s) would be willing to set foot on this runaway train at this point? Anyone who could rescue this situation already has a good day job. My best case scenario is that there is money left for refunds when the plug finally gets pulled or the project is taken over by Stern.

Also, what are the realistic chances that the project could be taken over by Stern or JJP? I'm having a hard time understanding a scenario where this would make financial sense for them. That math thing again.

Can you imagine JPop being able to put together all the parts that are needed to build these pins, then have them shipped to Stern or JJP for assembly? It was hard enough for Chicago Coin doing it with MMr, and they have manufacturing experience.

I get depressed thinking about it.

#5450 4 years ago
Quoted from Kneissl:

its a slam dunk. the theme is what put the shit-b goggles on everyone (including myself) fantastic licensed theme.

I think Heighway will get it.

#5464 4 years ago
Quoted from jarjarisgod:

I don't know. Based on some of the back and forth in the Predator thread, it seems like the obvious needs to be stated from time to time. Not that it will necessarily be heard...

Bwhahahaahaha!

#5543 4 years ago
Quoted from jlm33:

Why did you thumb down what I wrote in the Predator(gate) thread a few days ago, just before the Pinball news reveal, then?
I had at least that right. Would have preferred to be wrong with the manufacturer but right with the license though...

Why did I post a thumbs down on that? Really?

How about...because the idea of Heighway getting involved with Kevin and Skit-B was ridiculous! If I could, I'd go back and give that post *another* thumbs down!

We are talking about Heighway doing Predator *on their own*.

#5547 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

For whatever reason John was surrounded by a lot of mythology. Like the people who thought he was the artist for all his games. Even though it was simple to look that up and see that it wasn't the case.
He obviously has an aesthetic and is able to work with the artists to help see that realized, and that's a great strength. I don't think there's really a question that he's good at what he does.

Yeah, some people did think that JPop did his own artwork. But it doesn't really matter whether he did or not.

Like you said, he does have his own "aesthetic" or look that he goes for, so using an actual artist on his pins to get the look that he wants is no different than a film director who uses the DP (director of photography) to get the look he wants.

While many directors and DP's work together on film after film as a team, even when a different DP is used, you will still get the same look that the director is known for (assuming that they have a distinct style when it comes to cinematography).

Kubrick, Scorsese, Kurosawa, Hitchcock all had their signature look, even though they weren't the ones actually doing the shooting.

17
#5552 4 years ago
Quoted from jazzmaster:

I guess posting here is one way to get his attention..... from the blog:
"All,
I have had a bunch of folks message me about items from this blog appearing on public forums like “Pinside”. These items are not meant to be distributed but for the owners here only. The items / ideas / designs and illustrations on this blog are protected by United States ©Copyright and need to be kept as “trade secrets” until public viewing is ready.
If you are the person or know the person, please stop immediately as great harm is being done. Jpop"
So much for the "opening of the gates" policy.

What a complete load of crap.

#5623 4 years ago
Quoted from sammiesguys:

As someone who was Predator'd, I would recommend you guys check the dates when you paid and what types of protections your CC offers you if you paid with it. I haven't followed closely so I'm not sure how people were paying.
Those dates and protections could end up being critical if you need them. I have no idea what's going to happen with Jpop, but it's best to be prepared.
And keep an eye on how things go with us (I figure you probably already are). We are the guinea pigs, but it may end up being useful to you, if necessary.
Hopefully Jpop gets these things sorted out and none of the above will matter. Good luck guys.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think anyone who has money with JPop was able to pay him by credit card or Paypal. We are talking personal checks. At least that's how I paid when I was in, after my initial deposit that was paid by PayPal was refunded due to Zidware not setting up the PayPal account properly.

#5634 4 years ago
Quoted from Kneissl:

I'm running out of fingers counting up the people jpop has ripped off... And his law dog comes on here to try & twist things.. what a shyster.

Actually his lawyer hasn't been paid either, so let's not get too carried away.

#5649 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

I admit, I'm baffled at why Jpop is ordering $70000 in LEDs

1 too many zeros I hope?

#5654 4 years ago
Quoted from StevenP:

My guess (and I refuse to do anything more than guess anymore!)

Smart man. If anything could be learned from the Predator fiasco (lots to be learned there actually), this is one.

#5670 4 years ago
Quoted from StevenP:

I get the uncertainty and frustration with lack of communication. I was relaying general comments made to me, speaking as an individual and not as his lawyer/representative in these topics, without having gone thru the books or anything like Ice is proposing to do. Figuring maybe some indirect info was better than none. So, if that level of info is doing more harm than good, message received. I'll stop posting in JPOP threads/topics, period. it already seems like the best course of action from my personal perspective.
I. Will. Stop. Now.

I don't think anyone here really wants you to stop posting in this thread. You are a smart guy, you understand what people here are saying, and I'm sure you are sensitive to how things went down in the Predator thread with a few vendors taking a hit in credibility along the way. Being sensitive to that and being careful with what you say as fact is all people are asking for.

Like you said earlier, you refuse to do anything other than "guess" from now on.

#5767 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

I look at Heighway, how they build a game first virtually, and develop the software and rules early on, and then let it mature over the build process.
Look at the art updates Heighway went through... AT THE END, and this was all while they made changes to their game for reliability (turbo charger toy was 86'd, pop-up bumpers replaced by spinning discs). Stuff that only came about from ... you know... PLAYING THE GAME.
I was also pleased to see that Heighway's chief software guy won the IFPA state championships for Florida - a real pinball player. THAT is the experience we need for programmers, look at the value that Lyman and Keefer bring because they are top rated players and know what works and what doesn't.
Having just written the above, I don't see how this can possibly end well for us.

(my applause is for the Heighway stuff, not your last sentence...though I tend to agree with that as well)

#5777 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

Oh, goodness. That is awesome to hear for Full Throttle, sad about the jpop situation.
I can recall a David Thiel talk about Star Trek, about how he was sent a prototype to work on sounds, and "getting a feel" for the game was a big part of his inspiration.

Speaking of which, who is doing the sound work on these games?

Sound effects on Alien is going to be of great importance.

#5781 4 years ago

This is what I get for going off topic. I even lost track of what thread I was in!

I was actually asking who is doing the sound design for Alien.

#5798 4 years ago
Quoted from rai:

I've had one owner tell me that he is so fed up with the whole ordeal that he doesn't even want the pin anymore, that John took all the fun out of the project with his antics.

I wonder what percentage of RAZA owners would request a refund if they could get one?

And no, I'm not going to start a stupid poll.

#5837 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

They're also not particularly stunning in the rules department, a pretty consistent weakness in his titles.

This is definitely true, but I don't know that's really his fault?

And I personally don't have a serious problem with someone who says he's one of the most creative guys in pinball. He's done some great stuff for sure. I love the layouts on most of his designs. The DMD location on CV was a great idea.

#5843 4 years ago
Quoted from Kneissl:

He said "the most" not one of... just sayin'

I know.

And I don't really have a problem with it.

Just sayin'.

#5845 4 years ago
Quoted from Kneissl:

He's totally one of.. but not close to being the most.

If you agree that he's one of...I don't understand the conclusion of "not close" to the most.

It's all a matter of opinion anyway, so who cares? My personal opinion is that I don't have a problem with someone saying he's the most creative guy in pinball, even if I don't personally agree with that opinion. Close enough for me.

-1
#5880 4 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

PDXMonkey seems to be the only true believer left as far as I can tell.

He's the only one left on Pinside. Seeing comments on JPop's Facebook page seems to show proof that there are still people out there who would probably consider putting money down on AIW!