I'm hoping this ends well, for everyones sake.
Quoted from Roostking:
You mean a little something called "Peer Review"? That pesky little requirement to actually "Prove" something to people outside of your little "bubble" or "lab". Ya, this is doomed and like someone said earlier, could very well doom the pre-order business just as it was flourishing...
Not for Spooky, JJP, PPS and Stern.
Quoted from PinChili:
Since we're a little off topic at the moment (and discussing Yeti's talent), some of you may know that I've long been a critic of the character sculpts of a particular manufacturer. Take at a look at this Character Artist (specializing in sculpture.) AMAZING. I don't care what material you choose to make the final product, find an artist like this to design the molds. I realize painting/coloring can only be so detailed due to mass production. However, look at this person's resume and skills. Here is a small sculpt he did of an orc (a "daily speed sculpt" exercise" he says.) WOW. Get him hired too Aurich!!
As a tool designer I can tell you why that sculpt would cost a lot more to design and build a mold than the others you speak of.
Quoted from PinChili:
No offense, but I seriously wish people would stop using this same straw man argument that is completely false. It's the material you use that is either tolerable to impact or not. You CAN have great detail and have an incredibly detailed figure.
I have the Mezco figures for Breaking Bad. They have a fantastic amount of detail. They could withstand a million pinball shots without a chip. They are mass produced. It's not rocket science or impossible (and reminder, we're not even talking about bash toys here). If it really was an issue of not being able to mass produce something at a rate to which you could profit someone would have solved the problem. That's been the story for the past 150 years.
You are correct about materials. Of course, everything has its costs.
Quoted from PinChili:
I agree! But Mezco figures cost about $20 each. Again, mass produced and very durable. When toys are typically the central figures in an 8K+ machine, you might want to "splurge" and for the $20 (or even $50 in smaller quantity?).
Well, I'm not going to campaign for the cheaper toy, but I leave the BOM to Skit....I mean Stern.
This is all very sad. My experience with aerospace and automotive manufacturing through the years proves to me that regardless of capital on hand, it's not the deciding factor in a successful business. In fact, it is not even a starting point.
Manufacturing is brutally difficult even with sufficiant capital.
Quoted from fastpinball:
Very good points. I have run a business for 15 years focused in web based software. When we started FAST and created real physical goods, I learned so much about the many factors in play. The designing, the developing, the sourcing, the waiting, the testing, the cost! And then repeat the process again and again until you get it right.
I am glad we got to design and develop the FAST hardware without the pressure of other people's money hanging over us. The stress and the fear of shortcutting the process to just "get it done" vs. taking the time to develop it right, would just be too much.
If/when we ever seek outside funds I hope it would be to execute a well thought out plan that is exciting and provides a proper upside for investors. Not everyone has the stomach for that kind of risk. I certainly don't want to make any customer feel like they are embarking on a relationship with undue risk.
Umm. I think that ship has sailed, if you are saying what I think you are saying.? Meaning preorder money.
Quoted from retro_p:
Very good post Rai!
I think one other possibility would be for John to re-engineer the games into something that could be made one at a time. Sacrifices would have to be made to quality, and basically nothing could be custom engineered, but at least he wouldn't need new money get started, since a lot of these custom parts have to be made in huge quantities to be cost effective. By building them one at a time, John could open up new orders (having shipped previous orders), and he could reach some sort of escape velocity from this death spiral.
That being said, I don't suspect John has the personality/fortitude to push forward with anything less than perfection, even if it means zero games being shipped.
This whole "perfection" thing, regardless of what ends up happening, never made sense to me. As if he is incapable of anything but. This is not a knock on Zizzle, but he has worked within the reality of products being designed on a budget. He may not have been driving, but he was able to compromise art for businesses, and thats O.K.
Quoted from Rarehero:
Disagree - ToM, TOTAN, and CV's gameplay are fantastic. More than artwork and toys. Physically, they shoot beautifully. Smooth loops, interesting ramp designs. ToM is probably the fastest, smoothest, flowiest game out there. They have cool themes, great art, music and killer presentation. Some people seem to have issues with some of the rules (complaints I don't really understand)...but they're clearly the in the vocal minority. They're very satisfying games to shoot, and there's a reason they're in demand. If they truly played poorly, demand and satisfaction with those games would have waned already.
TOM, and CV are amazing games, but they became boring much quicker than just about any modern Stern. I liked the look and feel of both of those games a lot more than most Sterns. I don't care if I'm the only one who thinks it, but rulesets trump all else in the long run.
Quoted from Rarehero:
I agree that some Stern rulesets have gone above and beyond...but above and beyond ANY B/W game. That being said, the "classic" 90's B/W games still offer a unique original experience that Stern's cannot offer...and if we're comparing Jpop's B/W games to other B/W games - I don't see how any of them can be considered to have worse gameplay or rules than their peers. They absolutely belong "in the club".
Yeah, you're right...but will anyone do Rush? I have my doubts. If someone does it, I hope it's Stern, as the price will be a bit lower & Lyman is a huge Rush fan and would do it justice.
I can't argue with that. I didn't own them for the workout up and down my steps.
Quoted from AliciaC:
Anyone scheduled to attend JPop's Pinball designing class? Looks like " class is in session" May 14 - May 17 with payment only via bank wire and / or check ( i.e., no recourse for consumer ).
There's even a link for student conduct...NDA included. With all that's going on, is John still actually trying to facilitate these classes?
Pinball Workshop Class FeePinball Workshop Class Fee - $1,895.00 ( for four days )
Item number: PDW008Item price: $1,895.00
I like the business course better, its only $18.95 and it comes with 3D glasses in 6 to 8 weeks!
.....or was it going to be a "pinbot post"?
Its kind of bitter sweet looking at it as I walk to my gameroom. I hope for at least a somewhat happy ending for everyone involved.
Quoted from MikeS:
They had 30+ days to call a glass shop that sells antireflective glass and have them cut a custom sized sheet. I've had custom glass made by local glass ships on numerous ocassions and they've always had quick turnaround and reasonable prices.
If there were glass on the game, they would be spending the whole day taking it on and off. Everyone is aware of that right?
Quoted from iceman44:
How many people would consider MG if JJP was producing and Keith was coding?
At at price tag in line with TH?
1600 TH orders so far?
I'll take an MG for the same price over TH all day.
You need to add.....and ready to ship to this fantasy, and I would consider giving my fantasy money.
Quoted from Rarehero:
Yeti, I hate to see you get into defensive mode, especially since you are quite admired and respected around here....step back a bit and remember the narrative for those outside the project: Money has been taken for 3 games and people are still kind of in the dark about what the endgame is here. People are allowed to be critical without getting a "Hey why don't YOU guys do something for pinball?" guilt trip. Do you know what we do for the good of pinball? We play. We collect. We restore & repair. We teach others & get others interested. We BUY....and it's the buyers who've had a party in keeping pinball alive that have been taken advantage of here. The majority of us have jobs/lives and cannot commit our lives to creating pinball...and we don't deserve to be reprimanded for that. Pinball needs creators & supporters...don't shit on the supporters, please. Creators, especially in light of recent circumstances - are not beyond critique.
While I suppose it's commendable in theory that Bill, PDX and others are trying to do something...it still isn't really clear what that "something" is. Sure we can commend PDXMonkey for spending his money and time getting this game to the show...but that doesn't make the endgame clearer. I honestly don't know why PDXMonkey has devoted so much time and money to this. I don't know if Bill has a sustainable plan to get this game manufactured. Sorry if people aren't unanimously cheerleading - but they just went through 4 years of bullshit with a delusional maniac...forgive people's skepticism that the remaining behind-the-scenes supporters are still delusional in their goals to save this project.
Oooph. Again, please step out of the bubble and have some empathy for those who've been affected by this. Remember less than 20 people have money on this game. 100+ have money on RAZA and AIW. What do they deserve? Always remember that as this experiment rolls on.
Am I reading the same thread as everyone else? I don't feel the tone of posts are being negative to the new "minions", the negativity is still pointing to Jpop as it should. People paid and expect something tangible in return, like a pinball machine in their home.
I never said anything about whats the rush? I was hoping the game would be made and shipped to customers since day one.
Quoted from GravitaR:
The same usernames in all the drama filled threads here on pinside causing the grief here. Surprised this is allowed on the site at all without even a finger being lifted for the repeat offenders.
This is not entirely true. The "drama threads" also happan to be the latest in "pinball news" threads. We are here talking about pinball.
I consider you a friend.
Quoted from dgpinball:
What was truly amazing to me was that most of the people posting in this thread are a hell of lot more upset and whiny than he is, he wasn't ranting, he just wanted to see if anything good could be made out of this very bad situation, he was trying to focus on the positive, that there was at least something there to build on. Not sure I would be able to have that attitude, but it was certainly a refreshing change from torches and pitchfork crowd here.
Is that really amazing though, or just par for the course?
It takes a certain constitution to preorder any game... a Jpop game no less.
The pitch forks aren't even sharp, this crowd is fairly well behaved considering.
This is not directed at anyone in particular. As pinheads we have every right to have an opinion about the situation. We were, are, and will be marketed this pin.
Quoted from dgpinball:
I have no problem with opinion, but having read every post in this thread for the last few weeks since things really went south, I've been drawn to the inevitable conclusion that there is a contingent on here that truly is mean spirited and enjoy raining on others parades, obviously the minority, but a very vocal one that there is really no pleasing or pacifying.
Have you considered the block function?
Jpop and Kevin love when their threads turn into buyers vrs naysayers as opposed to buyers vrs them.
I recommend no one humor JPop.
It would be great if everyone could get the game they paid for. Unless there is a whole lot of money left and a competent manufacturing manager, the possibility of "fool me twice" is more likely.
I don't think his intent was ever criminal, just delusional.
As a side note, can we stop telling people to drop the discussion? If someone is breaking pinside rules anyone and everyone can report the offender. There is no reason to make vague statements about pinsiders, or this topic being "Drama" "so lets just end it". If I wanted my Mom's opinion I would call her
"If you don't have anything nice to say...." - Mom
Quoted from BC_Gambit:
People seem either very forgiving, very forgetful, or very unknowledgable about this to not understand the extent of JPOP's failure. Any one of us if given 4 years and one million dollars could have come up with a flipping prototype, probably several.
The games might have been crap, they might have been great, but at least the prototypes would have been built.
And I wish I could remember the BoM thread... I believe it was in regards to WoZ being super expensive to build (or NOT) if the BOM was sub 2Kish. Given the manual labor needed to convert the pile of pins into a game, costs of running a factory etc. and of designing the game in the first place, this number sounds "about right" to me if you wanted to make any money selling pins approaching reasonable prices.
Now that I've thought about it Ben commenting on that does not make sense! Must have been someone else who seemed knowledgeable? vid9100? Who knows. Maybe my memory is going...
Exactly. If I had four years, no other job and all that money, I could have learned another language too, and printed the manual in Spanish.
Quoted from burningman:
JPop was the master illusionist.
I disagree in a big way. Was anyone else at expo to see Johns presentation before he started collecting money (2008 or 9 I can't recall) Thats when it was obvious to me, that Jpop is an "artist" of sorts, and not a competent business man. There is nothing wrong with that as long as a man knows his limitations. To me, it seems there was and is a lot more wishfull thinking coming from pinheads. Master illusionist? Not so much.
Cues slideshow of squirrel.
Quoted from Nelly:
I keep thinking the same thing thing, and I believe it is still very possible for someone to complete this game. People may not see it, but there is quite a bit to work with here. Granted it's nowhere near where it should be after 4 years, but most of the hard work is done. I wonder what would happen if 3-4 guys from the P-ROC forums were to take it over? Hmmm. Hell, I'd be interested, just to see if it could be done.
I would pass on this and start over If I planned on making it work. I suspect the "value" of whats done is not as valuable as people think. First lets scrap the cab.... the wheel was already invented, and the new wheel is barely different, let alone better. How many other parts fit this example?
The best idea I can think of, is to try and get some money back (slim chance) and go buy from Spooky.
It kills to birds with one stone, you get a new boutique game, and annoy Jpop by supporting Spooky
I'm going to start saving now, for a future Spooky game.
Quoted from Nelly:
While I agree there are things on the game that need to be scrapped, it's hardly worth scrapping the entire game and starting over. Some things would be easy to cut costs on, others not so much. Sure you could ditch the custom cabinet, but how are you going to fit that huge LCD on the PF then? To keep the integrity of the game some things need to be changed. In this case the custom cabinet was a necessity. That being said even the custom cabinet could be changed to be less "innovative" and more cost effective. I wouldn't be interested in continuing the original vision of the "16K game", but rather refine and finish off what could potentially be an 8k game. It would be very possible if the rights could be picked up for decent price at the bankruptcy auction.
Have at it.
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:
You completely misunderstood what I said. It's not about "facing the truth."
Let me break it down for you. It's an asshole move to tell someone they made a mistake when they already know, especially when the only thing they are "guilty" of is trusting another human.
Quoted from tamoore:
Sounds about right.
Without the full truth being known, we're only left with speculation. This speculation is as valid as any, I suppose.
Maybe John has a convoluted "plan" to recoup some money by porting the VP pin to a payable playable VP app type game. He did one in the past, however it was a fairly simple game. I played it a few dozen times or more on my phone....of course this whould be a bad idea, and I would not support it.
I'm thinking it would be best for him to get a job somewhere/anywhere outside of pinball ASAP. While we are all upset with him, I don't wish him or his family an entire life of poverty for his actions.
Speculate away, this is Pinside!
Quoted from NYP:
If john needs more money for Zidware and is so confident, why not take a second mortgage on his house and use his personal assets? I can answer that, because he thinks of all the people who sent him money as suckers and not people and that he is entitled to the money because he is a creative genius pinball inventor. He thinks the money was a contribution or a gift, not an agreement to purchase something. I just want to stay healthy enough to outlive him so I can piss on his grave.
Hopefully he will eventually personally call and apologize to every single person involved. Though doubtful, if he at least admitted to the truth, (whatever it is) people could begin to forgive, (if possible) but not forget.
I feel robbed of someone I admired, I wish I could say only that about the real victims.
Quoted from PinballHelp:
The exception doesn't prove the rule. Every day we use plenty of services that the government provides, from public utilities to interstates, roads and bridges, running water, sewerage, libraries, community centers, fire departments, etc. If you're out at sea and something happens, the Coast Guard will rescue you, etc. Not all parts of government are corrupt and useless.
You are very correct, however there is still time.
Quoted from rai:
This site is broken because every time I hit enter it leaves the post as if it still has to be sent, so we're getting hundreds of double posts.
Also when you hit enter it brings you pack to the previous page not the last post like it should.
After posting hit the next page, then scroll down.
Quoted from dgarrett:
Damn, I just had a ZIzzle thought. What if JP makes a mini game - similar to Ben Heck's mini-pinball experiment shown over on Element14.com and calls that a completed and delivered MG and RAZA? It would be fraud on so many levels - but weirder thoughts have come from the Zidware lab.
The are no sharks left to jump.
Quoted from BackFlipper:
I hate to quote myself, but it was the best way to provide this update:
I am proud to say that 2 people have provided proof of their purchase from Zidware and I have decided to help both of them. I will not say who they are, what they wanted, how they wanted it or even if they participate on Pinside. If they ever want to share any of that information, that will be up to them.
$1000 is honestly a small price to pay for the great things that pinball has brought me. Heck, $1000 is only 1/3rd of the profit I made when I sold my TRON LE. I have lost $1000 in a day at a casino. It will not change the quality of my retirement. I am really happy to have been able give back.
You sir, are a man that we all can learn from.
Quoted from swinks:looks like he has scrubbed his pinside account
screen shot of a few days ago
screen shot today
hopefully not being aided to fly under the radar under a different name or he is on the run
What is the point in Jpop removing whatever he can from the net? He does realize everything he ever posted anywhere is easily gotten regardless of his efforts right? It just makes him look like Skit-C.
Quoted from flynnibus:
Oh you're right... it's so trivial a chimp could find success in that business. In fact, the world seems overflowing with past successful game studio leads. You basically just trivialized every profession out there with that mindset.
I guess it's just dumb luck on what games and companies succeed. How did any of us ever miss that?
He is in part correct. I have heard enough about how hard desinging a pin is. Conversely, I don't spout off about how hard it is to design a million dollar plastic injection mold, as if only a handfull of really really smart guys can do it. That would be arrogant to the point of absurdity
Quoted from chessiv:
Hasn't this thread run it's course? Everyone agrees 100% John screwed everyone and is being a complete idiot about it. It's just turned into drama for drama's sake. Someone should start a thread on the lawsuit(s) and put this one to bed.
John is an asshole! There, I'm done. I might even take a forced 24 hour siesta
Yeah, this has been said a few times.
When I dicide not to read or post, I stop reading....and posting.
I'm not trying to be an A-hole, but seriously a lot of people agree with you, hopefully they aren't reading it then.
No disrespect intended to you sir.
Quoted from Whysnow:
you need a better comparison...
If you are in the business of serving alcohol and you hire the alcoholic I would question your judgement and be effect would steer clear of future business dealing with you, that is for sure.
It appears there were all sorts of shady things going on even post pintasia involvement. Let's not forget so quickly that they were trying to get everyone to sign away all legal rights on one of the most lopsided contracts even seen in the pinball world. None of it passed the smell test and that alone is reaosn for any other start up to steer clear even if an angel comes along.
I do not object to whatever that team decides to do, but would tell them they should be more than careful in this situation. IF they were ever approached, I have a feeling it would not work out the best based on this recent past history of Pintasia.
First- Just about every bar you or I have ever been in is owned by someone who employs alcoholics, at least every good bar I have been to. There are over a few dozen in a mile radius of my house....Should I move?
I'm out of breath....(cracks a cold one
Quoted from MrBally:
If I were John (the arts & crafts guru), I'd want someone like Ken Allen or Wally Alvarez representing me. Too bad they both only do personal injury cases. They peddle their services like dog food and have their faces plastered on dozens of billboards in the Chicago area especially in Northwest Indiana on the Tri-State Tollway, I-94, I-80 and I-90.
Should Kevin call Sam then?
Quoted from boo32:
The shop was all part of his massive ego. There was a blog post that a New York photographer had come and taken a series of photos of the shop.
Am I the only one who has a sick desire to see these pics?
The Pinside memes alone might require more bandwidth.
On second thought, I can do without.
Quoted from benheck:
Pinball machines hold their value very well, so a game in the home is like cash in the bank. Really, as long as you can make the initial investment you can then swap out / change machines for a nominal cost. Almost like leasing them.
When our sales were slow it was infuriating to see other boutiques (with much better sales) blow both their opportunity and your money up in smoke. That 5k you spend on Predator might be 6k a year from now when you sell it, then you could try our game. But not anymore.
We speculate this is how Spooky has stayed on Sterns good side - we are a competitor, but we're not a competitor destroying wealth.
If I were Stern, I would try and buy Spooky. Something tells me Charley would not sell out easily.
Keep it up team Spooky!
Speaking of destroying value.
I was going to retire on this, had Jplopplopfizzfizzohwhatareliefitis had been a pinball hero instead of a weirdo.
At this point, I'm not sure if Jmop printed and "antiqued" 10,000 of these authentic Bally Prints.
Quoted from PinballHelp:
LOL.. that's not an "apology."
"I'm sorry you didn't understand what I meant." "I'm sorry you were confused or upset."
He's not sorry he said anything. He's sorry we don't 100% agree with him.
From Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-apology_apology
Look, I am a fan of JJP. I'm a WOZ owner and I love the game.
What bothers me more than anything else is this annoying attitude of, "You're-either-with-us-or-you're-against-us" that a lot of people including Jack and JPop have. Like they expect people to be total sycophants or else they're haters. The reality is somewhere in the middle. We can like what they do that's good, and dislike when they make mistakes. I'm no "hater."
I consider myself more of a "realist" who isn't afraid to say when something doesn't look right. Anybody in any business that feels a need to surround themselves exclusively with people who tell their their sh*t doesn't stink can't be that good of a businessman. You have to take the good with the bad. You have to admit when you screw up.
Take responsibility for stuff, and stop calling the community a bunch of "haters" because they're stating the obvious.
Zidware is a total disaster. There's no other way around that.
JJP is a great company that has a promising future and has produced a very good product. But their public relations is pretty crappy. If I point that out, I'm not a "hater", I'm saying, Hey here's a problem that you can address if you'll stop treating everyone who is offering constructive criticism like they're an enemy who wants to dance on your grave. It's not the case.
You forgot to drop the mic.
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