(Topic ID: 92436)

John Popadiuk update thread……MAGIC GIRL, RAZA, AIW…..

By iceman44

5 years ago

Topic Stats

  • 24,316 posts
  • 915 Pinsiders participating
  • Topic is favorited by 165 Pinsiders


Linked Games

Topic Gallery

There have been 1,696 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

sucks (resized).jpg
pasted_image (resized).png
bdabce9707bfa3eff92d0142c16fcb601c1ef058 (resized).jpeg
Deeproot_attire (resized).jpg
winds (resized).jpg
RAZA (resized).jpg
download (resized).jpeg
2g5x1v (resized).jpg
IMG_20161013_200354 (resized).jpg
hansonbrothers01 (resized).jpg
A33B8CA7-AD75-4E38-A815-1767E3A91C7A (resized).jpeg
D826C035-3CEF-4ADA-B80C-E04EE4B8BE8B (resized).jpeg
jpop sitting (resized).jpg
9E0B162E-329F-4B2E-9AB7-0FC857A196AB (resized).jpeg
expo (resized).png

Topic index (key posts)

23 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 20

Post #20523 Link to legal documents with allegations & responses Posted by DennisK (3 years ago)

Post #20526 Third amended complain document Posted by c508 (3 years ago)

Post #20532 Summary of complaints & responses in legal documents Posted by DennisK (3 years ago)

Post #20626 MG is now ready! Posted by TecumsehPlissken (2 years ago)

Post #20631 Scott Goldberg mail on MG completion Posted by TecumsehPlissken (2 years ago)

Post #21819 Information on webpage dedicated to Magic Girl Code Features. Posted by applejuice (2 years ago)

Post #22024 moderation notice Posted by Xerico (2 years ago)

Post #22304 Photos of every page of the Magic Girl manual. Posted by vidgameseller (2 years ago)

Post #22584 Lion Saw feature information. Posted by applejuice (2 years ago)

Post #22710 Very detailed review from a game owner Posted by ShinyNick (2 years ago)

Post #22817 Details on the origin of the driver board Posted by Borygard (2 years ago)

Post #22957 Comparison photos between a MG 'prototype' and another shipped MG Posted by spfxted (2 years ago)

Post #23045 Pinball News first look review. Posted by Pinballs (2 years ago)

Post #23392 Ebay Auction for NIB Magic Girl #007 Posted by fattrain (2 years ago)

Post #23611 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by dgarrett (2 years ago)

Post #23615 Interview with Linda Deal (artist), speaking about CV and TOM Posted by toyotaboy (2 years ago)

Post #23754 The Deeproot link. Posted by pin2d (2 years ago)

Post #23946 Result of civil suit against JPOP Posted by rommy (1 year ago)

Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider flynnibus.
Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.

#2330 5 years ago

well the apron is done... that certainly deserves lots of more pre-order money be sent in.. you know what to do

#2441 5 years ago
Quoted from PeteB:

Just in front of John's face is a Kiss machine, looking well into the late stages of design and development, but even better in the far right are 3 fully assembled Magic Girl machines which you can clearly make out have either wireform or clear plastic ramps. These look like finished prototypes where he/they are no doubt working on the game code. Interesting that the display is in the playfield just like Circus Voltaire.

I see assembled games... but I have no fantasy that an assembled game is one that is anywhere near complete. Obviously from his studio he loves to work on the art and visuals... but for nearly 70 years pinballs have been designed.. and then art laid over them. jpop seems to be going in the reverse direction. Focusing more on the visuals than the gameplay... which makes me wonder if the core of the game is getting the necessary attention.

1 week later
#2812 5 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Of course he does, especially the new facility they are moving into. Tell me what other "manufacturing" they have done outside of pinball to date?
Where have they derived all of their profits from over the last decade. Manufacturing what? Pinball machines.

they've done redemption too.

But your focusing on the print and missing the message. The company makes money by building product - not by designing stuff. The worlds greatest pinball doesn't mean jack if it's not generating orders for units. If they could get away with designing 1 game instead of 3 it would suit them fine... because designing more games is about generating factory demand... not a game portfolio. The money generator is the factory. So if they can produce things for other people that fit within how they want to operate... they would be open to it. And that's what they've been demonstrating with these new contracted manufacturing agreements.

#2831 5 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Historically, and I am curious about this from anybody that knows otherwise, they have been in the business of licensing, designing and building pinball machines! This has been their model for two decades now.

They aren't in the licensing business... Gary simply thinks his games need to be licensed to be well received. You have the cart in front of the horse. They license because Gary thinks its a necessity for his product.. not because they say "we have this great license, what can we build".

Stern has a factory... that's their prime asset. Not sure how long you've been around, but you might go back and learn that Gary has changed the design part of the business like some people change shirts. He's gone as far as basically outsourcing the whole of it (Example: the PLD games), keeping guys only on as contractors (Example: SRP period) only to bring it back in house later. But what was consistent throughout? The idea he has a factory to build product.

I assume you've never seen this before? You should look closely.. you should see the parts reuse here in one of their non-pinball games.

Quoted from iceman44:

The business plan has changed with the new partners apparently to diversify into other businesses like gaming and sub contracting as a manufacturer. Btw, the margins on sub work has to be much smaller.

No one paid Stern for it's R&D.. that is money it had to make in it's wholesale margin. So before each game had to pay for R&D, BOM costs and manufacturing. Paying a design team for 12-18m is not cheap. When Stern is the contract partner, the costs to recover shrink dramatically for Stern as they don't pay for the BOM costs or R&D. Plus now they can charge markup on things they always had to do as a cost (logistics, sourcing, packaging, etc). So their cost per unit to Stern plummets... while they can add markup on what used to be pure costs prior. Plus, there is no inventory worries... games built = games sold as far as they are concerned. Their exposure plummets.

This is why it's attractive for Stern to open their business. It lowers their risk, while being able to charge others for what they've perfected which before was simply a cost of business.

Go back to interviews from designers in the 90s at WMS... the factory schedule ruled everything. Their job was to get the job done on time to 'feed the beast' because if the factory isn't running, no one is making any money.

Games not hitting the loading dock = the company running in the red. That's why factory output is the actual heart that pumps the rest of the body. They need product demand so the factory has orders to fulfill... but they design games to generate demand for their factory output. If they could maintain demand and build the same game for many years they would be happy to do so.

4 months later
#11119 4 years ago
Quoted from NYP:

I would agree to the Pintasia agreement if:
John opens up whatever financial records he kept to show how much he received and how much he spent and how much he has left.
John is drained of any financial enrichment from this project and has to repay whatever salary he took.
John takes no salary from Pintasia for any future design work.
John has to finish his work on MG in a small dark room with no windows on live webcam wearing a dunce cap.
After finishing MG/RAZA and AIW he is demoted to cleaning the bathrooms at any U.S held pinball show and made to sweep the floors in a clown costume.
I think the general consensus here is that people are angry at John and want him punished for what he did, deservedly, and do not want him to get away with what he has done.

Sounds like the Treaty of Versailles..

#11143 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

Showing a poster is EXACTLY the kind of crap John would post in his blog.
I know Pintasia wants to come out of gate with something, but YIKES.

And one that has the gall to say "Believe..." ... I almost fell out of my chair looking at that

#11442 4 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Well if he gets that MG out of John's studio - what's stopping him from holding it hostage indefinitely?

in another country no less...

That's the upside for the new group... worst case they spent money, it fails, but they have these one of a kind games in their procession. Best case, they succeed and some games can be built. Middle road, they get further, and find out the games can't be built within costs that make sense.

The last case is my real concern... where despite all intentions, the house collapses because it was never feasible to start.

I think everyone keeps overlooking in the tit for tat... the motivation for the new group is _to get games built__. They have very little liability up front, but they do have to outlay cash to get the thing moving. 'Saving zidware' isn't the motivation... 'righting johns wrongs' isn't the motivation.. It's getting the game built so they have the game and if we can make it work for everyone... double win win. If not.. well it's better than just watching the whole thing implode.

It is very much a 'do something, rather than nothing' approach. People are hung up on correcting all of John's wrongs as a condition for these new guys to come in. The approach I read is 'lets move forward' -- and they hope or have done diligence enough they don't think zidware's implosion will keep them from progressing with the games.

And the comments about john not owning the copyrights/art... that's all based on the contract between zidware and yeti. Given yeti's green-ness, and John's paranoia... I'd bet the deck is stacked in John's favor. Yeti did the work as a contractor, not that he did the work and sold it. He did the work for zidware.. it's zidware's unless yeti baked in some super clauses.

#11445 4 years ago
Quoted from CNKay:

yeah that would seem to be the correct, logical and legal way.
But there is no drama in that.

and it includes the 'I give money away because I'm a good guy' requirement. That's what people want EMOTIONALLY - doesn't mean it's the right business path.. tho somewhere in the middle is probably best of both worlds.

This kind of "I invested in a sales pitch that ultimately flopped" is as old as time. It hurts that its your money lost... but countless, countless, countless projects spend a lot of money and fail to deliver the promise. I'm a bit confused that people act like this some new level of douch-ery.

Many many of our most successful businessmen in American history have lead failures like these and later had success. Not saying JPOP is one in waiting.. but this is as normal as the seasons. Entreprenuer pounds on doors, gets investor funding, tries to deliver.. and often fails. When they fail, there often is nothing for the investors to recoup.

#11463 4 years ago
Quoted from gambit3113:

This whole boutique pinball thing is full of idea guys just like him. Not enough wrench turners. And while Kevin might have been a wrench turner, he was too much of a mouth breather to make the business deal stick together. It isn't surprising to me that someone like Kevin got closer, though. He was ignorant on the actual process and just kept plowing ahead. Hell, not even falling to secure the license got in his way. He didn't know a roadblock when he saw it.

What I don't get is... with the advancements in pin games like PinballArcade now.. and the proven market for it.. why don't these idea people focus on making a VIRTUAL game first... get the concept, desirability, rules, art, etc all done and proven.. THEN take on the 'pinball is hard' portion of physically making games.

Yes, Yes, I know.. you can't design the same kinds of games without physically playing them... but you sure can build a game that plays well virtually, and you can prove it without huge amounts of capital costs. Then go and refine the game into an even BETTER physically playing game when you prototype it and take it onwards towards production.

MMR was less risky because.. it was MM! It was a known commodity. We hear a common number about taking a million dollars to bring a game through development... surely it doesn't take a million dollars to create a virtual pin.

Flush out the concept, make some money selling it recouping your costs, then shop it to be physically produced. Yes, the virtual pins will cannibalize SOME of your market potential... but its not going to displace your potential.

#11464 4 years ago
Quoted from zombieyeti:

I actually just finished some official Iron Maiden art that will release at SDCC got the blessing from
eddies father too

I demand a thread just for this!!!

#11467 4 years ago
Quoted from hank527:

I'm curious if he even read my last sentence. The guy did run a sign business, so I'm very skeptical that he is not just a compulsive liar.

Honestly I felt people were jumping to huge conclusions based on the photos to start with. Because one room of a building is empty.. we assume no one is there? Less we forget the actual working space is in another area and it's a one man operation?

Not saying he was there... but the # of conclusions drawn from them were insane and very wishy-washy.

#11475 4 years ago
Quoted from hank527:

John may have paid himself a handsome Salary and used our funds to build a Kiss Prototype amongst other things, that were illegal.

Running the business (even poorly) or building other products with revenue they took in on promises of future deliverables is not illegal. Stupid and destined to fail.. yes. Illegal? No

JPOP can argue he is part of an elite handful of people in the world with the experience to do this kind of work - with a resume including the industry greats. He's doing this full time... do you think a judge wouldn't agree he couldn't pay himself an elite salary?

You'd have a pretty high standard to cross to paint his actions as criminal or not inline with the corporation's interests.

#11477 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

Ice, you should rename this thread and put John's full name in the title for the search engines.

It's not 2004 anymore guys... page rank is way more balanced than simply having the name in the URL and/or repeating the name a dozen times (like someone did in the skit-B thread... amazing)

having the thread linked everywhere is far more weighty. So tell everyone to link their facebook pages, blogs, etc.

#11480 4 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

If it is JPop scrubbing off the data what he is doing may be considered spoilation of evidence.

Or put another way... taking product off your webpage you no longer are promoting.. or stop promoting things you are no longer actively engaged in. Removing stale advertising is not destruction of evidence.

Sometimes this site likes to make monumental leaps in the 'consequences' of things that could never ever hold up to scrutiny.

#11486 4 years ago
Quoted from statsdoc:

Forgive my ignorance, but if Yeti, applejuice, GLM, and the other contractors were never paid for their work, does Zidware actually own any rights to its use? Can Zidware use or license out their work without compensating the contractors? In the construction world, at the very least the contractor could place a lien on the goods.
It seems unjust if that is the case.

Ok, let's put it this way.. your construction company is building an office building. If you failed to pay one of your employees, does that employee have the right to lay claim to the building because you didn't pay him? No

When you are building, you are not the employee... you are providing a service/product on terms of payment/delivery. (you also have explicit laws protecting your business from nonpayment) When you are a employee (even contracted) you are working for the employer, not yourself. Virtually all employment agreements include clauses that say the company owns everything you do or think of while employed. The difference would be is if these guys built stuff as their own company and then sold the RESULT to zidware.. then they'd be more like a supplier who didn't get paid. But if they were building things as contract employees.. or did not define explicit ownership rights/licensing rights.. payment is moot. They were working for zidware, on zidware's product, under zidware's direction.

#11494 4 years ago
Quoted from Hitch9:

True enough, but paying oneself a very high salary, and selling games that you know won't get into people's hands, is not only 100% wrong, no matter who's moral compass you are looking at, it's fraudulent.

Being 'wrong' is not fraudulent. If his intent all along (even if making poor judgements) is to build the games.. it's not fraud to fail to deliver them. He didn't setup a fake company to dupe people into giving him money. He convinced people to give him money to make his visions real.

Taking orders even when the company is on the ropes.. could be argued as legit as well. The company needs more revenue to stay afloat.. so why not take the revenue if it can be argued it will legitimately help the company reach the goal to generate more revenue.

The worst angle he is probably exposed on is the lack of transparency and if there were factors that he failed to disclose that would have made the business no longer viable and instead was taking money to help himself vs the company. But again, a very high barrier to cross.

We must remember we are dealing with terms here that have legal definitions and standards.

Failed businesses - even poorly ran ones - do not equate to fraud.

Good neighbor? Common Good? "the right thing"? - certainly none of these... but founder that runs his business right into the wall.. even if he accidentally steered into the wall.. is not fraud simply because he failed.

#11496 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

What is that current state? The faster we know it the better. Because if we wait for the show, and there's a lot of "all this for THAT?", there is probably no recovery from that.
Expectations have been repeatedly set HIGH because we've been told time and time again from people "inside" that the game is "near complete", yada yada.. So if it's anything less than that, that better be disclosed quick as a way of getting ahead of another shit storm.

well pintasia has only said 'flippable' - and we've seen what code Jim has done previously. It shouldn't be that hard for level headed people to understand it's not going to be much more than a flippable whitewood with basic scoring... but instead this whitewood has art and inserts. Anything beyond that is a bonus.

We've all well established John has no credibility... so why would anyone work their expectations up over what he's said? Only the people that WANT to be riled up. Manage your own expectations... don't demand someone else do it for you.

#11532 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

appears that way.
Wonder why the need to do them for all 4???

Have you ever tried to make one cupcake?

#11637 4 years ago
Quoted from rai:

I would strongly (STRONGLY) suggest to the new people, get some video now. Real footage of the prototype and post it ASAP. If you can't post a video today or tomorrow, I doubt there is a flipping game at all.

You've seen the flipping playfield here multiple times as applejuice had it. Why are you doubting a game exists at all?

#11640 4 years ago
Quoted from guyincognito:

Is there a FAQ yet?
a) What's the estimated cost to finish the single prototype game that you plan at showing at conventions? (You might want to factor in the cost of travel and convention attendance, along with any expenses and salaries you're paying yourselves.)
b) How much did it cost to license the game from Zidware? How much does Zidware get per game if the game goes to production?
c) How much money is there left of the pre-order deposits/payments?
d) How much money is uncollected (the quoted price of the games minus pre-order payments)?
e) How much unpaid money is owed to existing manufacturers, suppliers, contractors?
f) What's the estimated cost to go from a showable prototype to a machine that's ready to manufacture?
g) What's the estimated cost to build a single machine?

This isn't production by forum thread. Why would anyone disclose all of those things to you.. in any situation? Do you need any of those answers to know if Pintasa would carry through? Or are we still thinking 'we are the screwed ones, so we deserve to know everything!'?

Those are factors Pintasia will have to gauge if they want to press forward.

Quoted from guyincognito:

The way I see it, the investors stand to lose everything they're putting in if the game never goes to production, and even if it does they're not guaranteed a return on their investment

Correct - which is why people keep saying Pintasia are assuming all the new risks and putting their skin in the game.

If Pintasia doesn't suceed in building the game, or finds it unfeasible.. no game gets made
If Pintasia isn't involved at all and it's just zidware... no game gets made

So how is your world any different besides Pintasia getting it one last go with new people and new cash influx?

The only difference is making a choice of 'do I sign up to not sue, hoping I get SOMETHING from my initial loss' or.. 'I don't sign up, and I still lose all my initial money'.

Really the only difference is vendetta - you're not going to get any money from zidware... at least nothing like your investment.

Quoted from guyincognito:

Assuming they can build a finished game that is ready for production, where does the money to build it come from? Can this game be built with existing funds and the remaining unpaid balances of pre-orders? If not, the money to build this game is going to have to come from an investor willing to risk a lot of money or from new buyers who are willing to risk their pre-order payments

There is no existing funds - its all up front money from pintasia and future money from buyers (which they aren't asking for until the viability of the game is known). Have you been following along???

#11643 4 years ago
Quoted from dgarrett:

They don't inherit the IOU's of deposits that have been made (so no liabilities) nor any liabilities to vendors (which seems like there is a lot of open invoices to many/all vendors of programming, parts, art work, etc.). What we are all struggling to understand is that many of the liabilities are outstanding accounts payable - so where is all the cash? - if you didn't pay any invoices, and you only leased space and machines - there should be a lot of cash in paypal.

The error is your leap here that they didn't pay any invoices. They did.. they just owe MORE. Applejuice for instance said he worked for over 2 years.. but it was the last three months were Jpop stopped paying him. Jpop did spend money on things... he just didn't pay ALL his bills.

Quoted from dgarrett:

Right now the posts are pretty confusing b/c these words are getting mixed together.

It's confusing because people are trying to mash Pintasia's effort to bring the game forward.. with what people interjecting what they THINK Pintasia should do.. which is make Zidware whole and wipe out all their liabilities IN ADDITION to trying to make the game. Pintasia has been very clear here -- confusion is coming from the emotional audience, not the information shared.

Zero'ing out Zidware and building the game are two separate directions... with the hanging issue that Pintasia's effort relies on zidware not imploding and having a court undo Pintasia's deal.

#11652 4 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

Well that's a big void of disclosure there. What was the deal? I don't think many would be happy if they found out a sizable payment went to John in consideration for the license. Is that why bill is unwilling to disclose the terms?

You keep beating this horse... go back to this post

Quoted from PINTASIA:

Profits made from this endeavor are going back to all of the Zidware customers to help make everyone whole before we make any money. That is how we can provide 1 credit, think about it...we still have to pay the BOM to get the games made! We did not receive any money from Zidware. The monies given to Zidware as deposits is gone. We are creating profits not to line our pockets, we are creating profits in order to provided 1 credits to customers.

The tradeoff for John here is Pintasia works to relieve the pressure of the guys seeking games and someone putting up the up front money to keep the project moving. Pintasia puts up money, John gets a stay of execution. That's whats in it for John and why he would be motivated to license the game's work for no up front money. The upside for Pintasia is... trying to get the game made, and maybe, just maybe, an avenue to help people recover some of their losses.

#11658 4 years ago
Quoted from Shorty:

Everyone keeps advising don't sue because there is no money or assets worth anything of value. Has anyone actually seen the books to confirm this or is everyone just making assumptions?

Ok, unless Jpop was growing money trees for the last four years... what positive cash flow do you think he's had over that time period?

What does that mean... the pile of money can only be LESS than what people put in. Given it's been FOUR YEARS of full time work by many people, rent, lawyers, accountants, contractors, etc.. its obvious that a LOT of money has been spent.

So no matter how much money is left.. its gonna be a lot LESS than what each person put in.. because no one else was putting money in... and they didn't sell anything to bring money in.

In what fantasy world do people live in that they think over four years the guy hasn't spent a large portion of the money?
Even at just a couple grand a month.. his studio would have cost him more than 100k over the time period. Figure he pays himself at least 100k.. that's another 400k. At $5000 x 200 people on average that's 1million. These rough numbers half of that money is gone before they've done anything.. and there's been lots of people, travel, parts, etc all involved in this.

Let's be optmistic and think there is 25% of the money left.. so on average people maybe get $1k back.. but then you forgot all the lawyers and everyone else inbetween.

My point being is... people keep screaming 'where is the money' - It's been four years of activity with zero income. Why would you be surprised to hear there is little left to recover?

#11661 4 years ago
Quoted from gambit3113:

Long story short: possible, depending on how he set it up and what method of incorporation he used. But unlikely. The protections are there for a reason. Small businesses start up and fail with investor money every day.

I know.. shocking news update for pinsiders I guess

Given all the formalities John dragged everyone through, including his 'customers', why on earth would he not be just as anal as making sure he had adequate protections for his personal self??

Reality check people... John was lawyer happy... don't think he wouldn't be covering his own ass first.

#11662 4 years ago
Quoted from Shorty:

So nobody has actually seen the books?

Please list out the private companies that have opened their books to pinsiders...

Again, use some common sense. What has the company been running off of for years?

#11665 4 years ago
Quoted from sturner:

They could still keep the license. The royalty fees would help satisfy outstanding creditors.

No, they'd have to secure the license under the court's discretion first... a much more daunting (and potentially expensive) venture vs the deal they probably cut now.

If the license is seen as an asset with value.. the court would require action be taken that would return the most value to the creditors.

The Pintasia deal is a 'try before you buy' deal... that they can back out of. That's not return to creditors if they backout.

#11749 4 years ago
Quoted from YKpinballer:

You have to admit that there is another Sabrina Wei in BC that is a CFO that is accused of ponzi activity when Pintasia is proposing to take over a ponzi scheme and take preorder dollars

Was it BC or just 'canada'? I didn't recall seeing things specifically saying BC... but that copy/paste hack job was so impossible to digest I probably only viewed a 1/5 of the content.

One thing we do know is... google her name and you see just how common it is. So I'm gonna need more than just 'canada' + 'same name' to call them the same people.

#11750 4 years ago
Quoted from Robotoes:

This is LITERALLY Twilight Zone status. How do you have a flipping whitewood, for years!, and not bring it to a show (any show!) for anyone to see?

The same way you make your own customers sign a NDA to buy your stuff... or have warped ideas like putting your game in public voids the warranty.

Quoted from Robotoes:

I have to think that so much of this NONSENSE could have been avoided if that had happened

Why? the game still wouldn't be finished... he'd still not be paying vendors... there'd still be no end in sight. The secrecy is annoying - but it's not what kept the game from being finished or steered how the guy spent money.

Look at Hobbit.. all the showing of early stuff has delayed the game significantly as well (can argue for better or worse...) - but it certainly didn't help Hobbit get to the finish line or JJP being more reliable or sustainable. Those are zidware's problems.

#11753 4 years ago
Quoted from YKpinballer:

Not reading something and dismissing it isn't a great practice. But you're right, that's why Sabrina should specifically address all concerns and somebody should independently verify her responses.

I read what was coherent and credible. Pontificating everyone should read something that is unintelligible or unsubstantiated is not 'great practice' either. I would also advocate one build a better case before drawing conclusions of fact and poking all my neighbors that the should buy in to.

Do people have concept of integrity or credibility anymore? Why pass along stuff you wouldn't be willing to put your own name to?

#11777 4 years ago
Quoted from YKpinballer:

You seem very quick to dismiss anything that isn't "air tight" and that is common for people who are emotionally invested.

Not at all - It's called credibility before leaping in head first. You're quick to leap because you see things that MIGHT be connected.. where I say 'nice lead.. now close the gap' before I close my eyes and leap in with you.

Constrast that with you.. who are already calling it a ponzi scheme and questioning people based on google fu.

#11778 4 years ago
Quoted from YKpinballer:

This was clearly posted early in the pastebin page, so nothing to do with the "copy/paste hackjob" being hard to follow. Pretty clear to me, and while Sabrina Wei may be a common name, the amount of Sabrina Weis in BC with multiple professional designations and high level positions of financial trust are probably fewer

Except that's not what your clip asserts. Your clip asserts DFRF is in BC.. not that Sabina of DFRF is in BC. You're missing the critical pieces that map a Sabina with these backgrounds to that Sabina of DFRF.

Could it all link up? Sure - but your links are full of holes.. and 99% of it is about this Daniel guy.. not linking the Sabina's together as the same person.

#11828 4 years ago
Quoted from Honch:

The fact that it's possible should give you pause.

It does... but I make a clear distinction between suspect... and claim or state as fact. (and then go and back off when challenged... but the impact is already made.. mission accomplished).

Unfortunately that is self-control many seem to lack online.

#11857 4 years ago
Quoted from YKpinballer:

The only question is if this is the same Sabrina

It is THE critical question.. which your cites failed to close on.

Quoted from Mycal:

After watching the linked video, I can confirm that it is the same Sabrina Wei. Bill and her attended Pin-A-Go-Go together earlier this month.

But NOW you have my attention


Who dreams up this stuff.. amazing. When will the Bally/mob connection make its appearance in this saga?

#11903 4 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

How many of us think that the vendors like GLM, Cointaker, Applesauce, etc. should be made whole by Pintasia?
I do.
But it probably isn't realistic to think that could happen. Pintasia isn't a pinball charity. Do we really think that they are going to come in and just start paying JPop's unpaid vendors when they have no legal responsibility to do so?

This... people need to stop throwing around their ethical opinion as if its some legal requirement or "or else!". It's people's DESIRE... based on their ethical view on the matter.

But let's be real.. how many have the stones to say "I won't accept this game being delivered to me unless you pay off all zidware's debts". Are people going to throw their money away AND a game based on that ethic standard? Doubtful.

People are reaching for the stars... but lets keep a clear line between desires and requirements.

#11908 4 years ago
Quoted from greatwichjohn:

Maybe the pin is going into hiding now, & won't make the show. Possibly a unpaid vendor could put a lien or repo order out & get it seized at the show. Got to pay your vendors!

That's not how things work. They'd have to win in court first, get judgement, and still without payment, be able to file for a lien. apparently no one has taken Jpop to court yet over their unpaid invoices.

Maybe the vendors could explain that one.... more than likely the debts aren't great enough to make it worth pursuing.

On the flip side.. maybe the debts are small enough it's within reason for someone like Pintasia to negotiate a settlement and get this cloud off the project.

#12026 4 years ago
Quoted from gambit3113:

That tinfoil hat website with no known author and lack of legitimate news source isn't exactly Woodward and Berstein level authority.

And someone who can copy/paste.. but not a URL? frustrating...

#12110 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

It is NOT all gone. Add it up and atleast 25-50% remains. He has lied to you for years so why do you think he is telling you the truth now.
If the money is all gone then he has been funneling to his owne personal accounts and this is not legal.

..and speaking of making accusations and claiming them as fact...

#12116 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

Based on what I've been told, John was "frugal" with everyone (before they stopped getting paid completely), which makes burning through the cash that much more confusing.

You can be frugal with people that are happy to see new business... you can't dictate the same way with things like

- utility companies
- lawyers
- landlords
- the postman
- etc

The guy is used to being paid well... living in an expensive part of the country... apparently needed to hire people to do much of the heavy lifting... had to pay rent, utilities, taxes.. and was paranoid legally... which means lots of lawyer time.

Between just the basics of
- paying himself (anything less than 100-150k would be shocking IMO)
- paying for his expenses (cell phones, travel, internet, etc)
- paying rent
- paying utilities
- paying taxes/fees
- paying vendors even for only part of the time

Things add up quick.

I find it funny how many people would be quick to say something is a 'business expense' when managing their own liabilities... yet when a startup collapses they are like 'where did it all go???'

#12128 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Even severly over inflating cost guestimates.
Total cash brought in >> 1.2 to 1.6million

A pretty 'optimistic' number. <15 MGs.. so maybe 240k there. The RAZA people are in for much less per game.. many with just partial payments. And the body count is about what.. 200? even if you assume 5k average, that is only 1 mil. So the intake is more likely at the low end of your scale.

Quoted from Whysnow:

Rent for shop (has he been there for 4 years?) 4k per month = 200k in rent
Shop Equipment (assume purchased from the videos we saw) = 60-100k
Payments to some vendors for limited total parts (what are we talking 3-5 total prototypes) 60k
Payments to coder, artists, sound guy, etc (from what we know this was limited) 100k
Salary for Jon (should have been zero, but with the size of his ego) 100k per year = 400k
Absolute worst case he still has 300k in the bank.
He still has all of the shop equipment which has retained most of its value.

Really? Used equipment is mostly the same as new?
Your estimates for contractors is probably incredibly low. Let's take jim for instance.. he obviously was billing a signifigant portion if just 3months money going away was enough to put him in financial straights. So not trivial sums.. and that's just ONE guy.. who was also paid for 21months prior. Jim hasn't given us any numbers.. but let's play ultra conservative. Let's say he was billing 2k a month.. that's over 40k spent for the time period Jpop WAS paying his bills. That's 40% of your estimate in just ONE guy and there were many.
You also left out major buckets like his lawyer, his accountant, etc.

Quoted from Whysnow:

He would have a very difficult time justifying a 100k salary given the comparables of other well known designers.

Based on what? Are those other guys also the executives of their company too? You're in fantasy land if you think a court would agree the guy can't pay himself and pay himself a wage comparable to company execs and an elite job field. Successful startups don't pay people prevailing wages because they know they want to preserve the money - that doesn't make it illegal to not do that.

#12187 4 years ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

sure I will hire more people to sit around and answer questions for you all day

Could I introduce you to the 'quote' link at the top of posts? It would help everyone greatly to know who you are actually responding to

#12189 4 years ago
Quoted from gweempose:

Who exactly is this Zane D. Smith, and how did he get involved? Is he a friend of someone with money at stake? Do we even know if he is a competent attorney?

Simply the first lawyer someone used... and since no one else was going to do any legwork (common theme..) mob floats to easiest path to a willing lawyer they know. Simply follow the guy walking in front you...

#12244 4 years ago

people gotta remember... this is not going to be a finished prototype... Can't you see all the waves of hate coming about how miserable the game is already?

It's a flipping skeleton... playfield layout, art direction, and the cabinet layout are really probably the biggest things to learn from this demo.

As long as it's not an empty cabinet.. and covered translit... people should be ecstatic

#12448 4 years ago
Quoted from Ballypinball:

For those interested most of the designers were on a monthly retainer normally $5,000 to $6,250
+ a royalty per game sold if sold over a specified number.
This info comes straight from Williams internal memo's

plus also add on you're talking about numbers what.. 20 years old? Tech industry has changed a whole lot since 1995

#12451 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

I'm not convinced that Pop's original plan was to sell the company before building any machines.

Well he certainly seemed focus on 'ideas' and less about being a sustainable company. His priorities were all out of whack. I can understand saying 'we need to roll the creatives onto the next title so there isn't a huge lag period...' as that's what a manager focusing on the big picture would say. But Jpop was just endlessly revising and hopping around. He need a business partner that would do things like require he make CHOICES and face things like DEADLINES.

Jpop maybe thought he could make a 'no compromise' game if he was given unlimited time and money.. and thought 16k games or something meant 'unlimited money'. But that doesn't account for actually sustaining the business itself during that period.

It was a concept doomed from the start given you gave the artist sole decision power.

#12611 4 years ago
Quoted from jwilson:

People were asking why Bill would take this on.
He might be altruistic, but logically it makes more sense that he saw this as the only opportunity to get his Magic Girl free and clear. That least that's what makes the most sense to me - more than someone doing a million dollar favor for the pinball community.
I guess we'll see this weekend!

Free and clear? What about his pre-order money? And nothing is 'free and clear' when a bankruptcy is looming and clearly on the horizon when a deal is done. His best bet is simply 'possession is 9/10ths...'

#12754 4 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

So, generally the mod team does not approve of posting PMs.
That said, it is a soft rule and people should have no expectation to privacy in their PMs. If you threaten someone or Choggard someone don't be surprised to see your PM again.
Try to treat all people with respect both in your posts and your PMs.

Anyone physically threatening other members (even from afar, even in 'tough guy' mode) should be blacklisted immediately.

#12755 4 years ago


#12982 4 years ago
Quoted from zombieyeti:

So, not trying to shill here - but I'm selling a signed & numbered edition of 50 AIW prints based on the artwork created for the near final Back Glass.

Pre-ordered!!! I'm in!

#12984 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

any chance of getting this in color rather than just the line art?

Free with purchase...

#13824 4 years ago
Quoted from brent149:

After Predator and this, anyone who loses money depositing on phantom games deserves zero empathy. I bet they'll still be a few people throwing pre-order money at this prototype that will come away shocked when they have nothing to show for it.

Kind of like people who buy unproven games sight unseen... They'll swear they'll never do it again after being burned... Act like they can't believe this can happen... And will just do it again the next time its offered up to them

#13828 4 years ago
Quoted from MK6PIN:

If a paid in full preorder individual went in with even basic law enforcement, and claimed ( with a receipt) these were the machines they had paid for, there would at least be a question, machines confiscated, and everyone would know where they were ( from my reading, many people doubted they even existed).

Thats not how any of this works.

These arent the products people bought. This is a development piece - customers have no claim to it. The police don't interject and decide civil matters on demand based on a receipt - they enforce court orders. This is the property of zidware until its sold or the court forces otherwise. The police don't perform vigilante procession... Smh

#14059 4 years ago
Quoted from jonnyo:

Let me throw this out there. A little thought experiment.
Let's say you are, Bill, the head of the rescue effort. You know pre-orderers have been burned and are upset and uncertain. You know they have questions and you know they want to at least see, if not play the game. You also know the internet is watching closely. You have two or three weeks to prepare. You know the reveal is critical, and if not pulled off successfully, it could jeopardize the whole project.
What would you do to prepare for and execute the reveal of Magic Girl?

Clearly all along this was going to be a demo and not some "launch"... Simply something to actually get the game out of the shadows to gauge real interest and not simply based on an aura. That interest includes the 'bad' because you have to be realistic in 'are people willing to stick it out' based on where the project is. This was never going to be a near complete game... Anyone with those expectations were just delusional. The state of the game should be of zero suprise given what people have been disclosing since the pintasia thing broke. People need to get over the last 3+ years of what they THINK should have been accomplished and simply face what has been revealed.

Finishing off the game under secrecy for months for some polished reveal just isnt in the cards. They needed something nOW to release the built up pressure. What we have here is the aborted attempt at the game so far.

I'd favor honesty over production value at this point. Any production to try to fluff up this demo into a big reveal would just be more lies.

What they could have done tho is try to do some great photos to show what is unique or attractive about the game... To counter the horrible game lighting

#14108 4 years ago
Quoted from dgpinball:

just wanted to see if anything good could be made out of this very bad situation, he was trying to focus on the positive, that there was at least something there to build on

This pretty much sums up the second effort. "Is there anyway to salvage this prior work?" Focusing on that alone really filters out so much of the anger and noise.

#14113 4 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

This is between Pintasia and Zidware and it is not my place to speak for them.
And while I have no idea if this is actually how it worked, from a purely logical perspective, if I buy an IP from a company, I own that IP. Whether that company was heathy or about to go into bankruptcy is not relevant at that point. When I go to Walmart to buy something I don't investigate whether or not the company that supplied the inventory was paid. I simply buy what they have. A company that is in trouble can sell assets to pay its debts. Me buying that IP gives some cash for that company to pay its debts. Whether it did this with the money or continued to mismanage that money and pissed it away is also not relevant (to me as a buyer of the IP). But once I own the IP, I own it. I don't need to pay anyone that was hired by the party that sold it to me anything.

But two things here...
1) they didn't buy the IP - they licensed it. Right to use, not ownership.
2) "I bought it, I own it, end of story" doesn't apply when the deal is done in a unscrupulous way. Legally (and not just morally) there are limits and processes here to ensure a company or someone does not not move assets out of the company in a way that doesn't serve the company's or creditor's interest. For instance, you can't just sell everything to yourself or another entity for a $1 to move the value out of the company to exclude it from liquidation or to be self-serving.

#14133 4 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

With this much scrutiny and existing litigation someone would have to be crazy to lose the prototype (or have it stolen or destroyed while in their care). I just don't see any of the volunteers working on the project doing such a thing.

It's a possibility... the thing about assets that can be moved is.. you have to actually pay someone to go and track them down and retrieve them. If the game gets polished up a bit... they shop it around.. and ultimately conclude the game is not economically feasible. Now it's just an asset to be liquidated with the closure of zidware... but to do that you must have possession of it. Let's say Pintasia has it.. somewhere.. then that company goes dark... and now they have a liability but they just fold up and declare bankruptcy too. Every layer and transaction you add, the harder it is to chase down and hold accountable. Add the border into this, and things get even more fun.

Ultimately you can clutter the channel so much it makes it impractical to pursue.. and even if you know where it is.. deciding 'who gets what' can be a twisted mess and littered with tombstone entities. It could be in plain sight yet people would be crippled to actually do much about it.

It's sure one hell of an expensive way to get get a prototype game... but its not an impossible outcome.

#14179 4 years ago
Quoted from Revo76:

I have send him, even through other people.
But he still has not replied or send me any message through other ways.
I have been supporting and doing things for John for more then two years in several ways.
Funny to hardly see anybody reacting when pictures are placed of some of the models I made for him.
No one asking me how many and how far they are.
Shall i just delete it all and let someone else start from scratch?

Are we supposed to be begging you to tell us everything? If you have something to say or share.. just do it. Stop acting like we should all come begging for some juicy stuff. You want to play Mr Secret and then are hot because no one recognizes your contribution? We aren't mind readers and we've already seen how John kept his contributors silo'd.

#14295 4 years ago
Quoted from Mocean:

If Jim says he had a prototype almost a year ago and asked for those switches to be installed a year ago, what really kept someone over in that palatial zidware facility from making that happen?.

And what does "should have been done" really have to do with anything? That's history... no one could change it. The reality (not the wish) was the game was in state #1... the people worked to get it to state #2. Constant rehashing over what state #1 SHOULD have been is nothing but huffing and puffing over shit no one can change.

My god will people ever learn to just move on and worry about what you CAN control?

#14298 4 years ago
Quoted from rommy:

The silence is deafening. It's like once the proto made it to the show-radio silence was implemented.

Or simply.. some of the noise generators left the thread finally. Don't say their name three times or we'll have to suffer through it all again.

#14320 4 years ago
Quoted from pezpunk:

and those people that got on to the titanic .. what a bunch of chumps! and who in their right mind would get on the hindenberg, since it was about to explode? didn't they know hydrogen is flammable? (/sarcasm)

Except in both those cases... they knew what the ship was.. where it was going.. and had good confidence it would make it based on previous similar examples. None of which apply to these startups Carry on...

#14746 4 years ago
Quoted from jwilson:

The more I think about it, having that game wouldn't be worth it.
Let's say, for the sake of argument, it gets squirreled off to some well-heeled pinhead's collection. Since it currently still belongs to Zidware, anyone else who has it would essentially be in possession of stolen property, so they could never let anyone see it for fear of being outed.

If a company is loaned something.. and fails to return it, it's not 'stolen' - it's a liability against the company depending on the terms in the agreement. But that company, if you close down or liquidate.. becomes another layer to cut through when trying to recoup things. Put some more layers in there by transfering things around.. and it becomes a big PITA to get a judgement.. let alone actually try to repo.

I said this back when the game first was traveling.. and again last week too. You don't need to make it hidden, just make it a major PITA to actually close on a judgement and collect on it.

#14789 4 years ago
Quoted from PEN:

Maybe John has a convoluted "plan" to recoup some money by porting the VP pin to a payable playable VP app type game. He did one in the past, however it was a fairly simple game. I played it a few dozen times or more on my phone....of course this whould be a bad idea, and I would not support it.
I'm thinking it would be best for him to get a job somewhere/anywhere outside of pinball ASAP. While we are all upset with him, I don't wish him or his family an entire life of poverty for his actions.
Speculate away, this is Pinside!

There is certainly foreshadowing for this... when I said why didn't he prototype virtually first... Check out the response from our friends in Oregon..

#14852 4 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

So it is possible they are taking software, sound, audio and art assets, many of which the vendor has not been paid for, and potentially putting them into a VP game? Wouldn't that qualify as theft of IP, if they don't have a legal right to do it? Or have they worked some deal with John (and/or Pintasia?) to be able to do this?

Again.. no. It all depends on the relationship between John and his hired help and the conditions under which the IP was created. John wasn't buying stuff lock-stock for licensed used.. he was hiring people to create IP for him. Ownership will depend on the contract terms between the parties... but these are almost always heavily lopsided to the employer.. as is the law for it.

If you get in a labor dispute with your boss... your contribution to the company doesn't magically transfer to you.

#14910 4 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

My comment was about taking the game and scanning the plastics or the playfield or pull art assets off the computer, would be theft of IP that belongs to zidware and could have value in bankruptcy. =

The likelyhood that the game is covertly getting moved around so it can be illegally copied without zidware's knowledge... I would believe to be zero. Can we stop with all the hollywood movie plots and remember these are real people?

#14914 4 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

But then, like all hobbies, there's various rings of secretive insiders who like knowing stuff other "lesser" collectors don't, so it might be possible to keep it contained. I'd hope not, though. There's a difference between knowing insider industry info, and knowing someone has that game unjustly.

This hobby especially is full of 'back channels' of relayed info.. and plenty of people who like to flaunt they know more than the average joe. Too many circles to keep track of. Sad unfortunately as such behavior usually ends up being destructive.

I think here tho people are just so wound up in all the wild turns this thing has taken they are just so quick to latch onto the next 'possible' drama point and want to believe it.

As for someone having it and being labeled toxic for having it? Give it a few years and it will just be another novelty people will gawk over like all the other prototype/etc stuff out there. No one is going to slay someone who managed to secure it eventually. All the people up in arms about getting OTHER people's bills paid will fade away.

#15067 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

You weren't paying for a product. You were investing in a startup, with the hope of receiving a product out of it. Startups fail all the time. People lose money. No one goes to jail.

If it were a kickstarter/crowdsourced thing.. yes. But here, people were signing up to buy a product (alas knowing their purchase was from a fledgling company). They were customers, not investors. Investors assume risks in hopes of a payout... here these people never expected anything but the game they ordered. They are not investors in their roles.. which is also why they have no claim to zidware's assets or residuals.

Quoted from Aurich:

The lawsuit may or may not recover any money, and it will most certainly cause bankruptcy, but that's going to be the extent of it in all likelihood.

I agree - 'failing to deliver on a sales order' != criminal fraud.

#15073 4 years ago
Quoted from YKpinballer:

. It is not a case where you handed your money over so if it disappears its your own fault. That is not correct and the way john has run his business after collecting the money is absolutely a crime. He is not absolved of his duty to produce the product and manage the company in a financially responsible way after you hand over your money

No, this is your OPINION... you'd have an incredibly high standard to breach to argue criminal fault in simply making bad choices. Misappropriating money, laundering, embezzling, etc.. ok, you'd have something to fight with. But you have none of that, your whole position is "They failed, they failed because of JPop, hence he's a fraud, and a criminal". You really have nothing.

#15349 4 years ago
Quoted from rai:

You're wrong we didn't employ John. If a guy installs a garage door on your house you don't pay him a salary or pay his insurance. You pay a set price for a service/product.

I didn't reply the the first time because I thought you were just being factious because of the emotions.. but now you really think this way? Surely you aren't that clueless?

When you hired 'Joes Garage Doors' Joe charged your a price for his goods and services... a Price that includes MARKUP.. markup that is intended to cover overhead, expenses, and an element of profit. Your transaction is with a seller, who is providing goods and services and charging a markup on those things to fund their business... INCLUDING PAYING THE GUYS SALARY.

When you bought an item from ZIDWARE - you were buying a product from the company for a set price, not hiring John on some Time and Materials contract. The company is free to do whatever it feels proper with that money - its not for you as the customer to have any say what so ever on how they fund their operations or what they pay their employees. Their obligation is to deliver on their product - to be successful they need to charge prices that fund both the business and cover their expenses.

Quoted from rai:

I think you are confusing the issue, we didn't agree to pay for his insurance any more than if you buy a taco from a truck are we agreeing to pay a salary or insurance for the truck driver

YES YOU ARE! OMG.. are you really that obtuse to what it means to run any sort of business? The price of your taco is determined in a fashion to cover expenses and provide a margin to the business.

#15351 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

I don't even play a lawyer on TV, and I haven't read the contract, I'm sure the law suit will sort everything out.
But just from my "real world" perspective, there seems to be a lot of confusion over what exactly was going down here. You weren't hiring a garage door tech, or buying a taco.
You were crown funding a startup business.

No, they signed contracts to buy a product - a product from a company they willingly knew was a startup and that their product wasn't designed, nor built yet.

This was not an agreement to give money to zidware with a 'reward' for their contribution like a crowd sourcing project. This was a purchase agreement - no different than buying a product from an online retailer who says promises to ship the product at a later date.

It's a VERY important difference.. even tho we say "you were buying a vapor product.. from a startup" - the buying agreement was NOT a investment agreement. Even tho we all know (and the buyers did too) that the money was going to a business that needed the money up front to actually fund the development.

#15355 4 years ago
Quoted from Pinballs:

Zidware's Zizzle machines had also been a success, so it wasn't the case that this was an unproven company.

Zidware was not zizzle... Zizzle was it's own effort that John was a part of. The key delta is John being a contributor to a team in Zizzle.. where Zidware was John.. trying to contract contributor's in. John's company vs John's employment.

#15356 4 years ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

The creation of the grocery store and its infrastructure were not funded by the bag of potatoes and box of Cheerios I bought this morning.

Yes it was... the margin on that purchase funded the coffers of the chain to build the next store. The initial store would have been opened with credit or investors... who got paid back by the margins on your bags of chips.

Where the F do you think business' make their money from???

#15363 4 years ago
Quoted from MrBally:

How do car dealers sell vehicles below cost yet seem to expand their dealerships? See: Penske mega-dealers for the best example of this.

Because 'cost' as people think isn't their true cost? Megadealers work through driving costs down, not that they necessarily sell below costs.. simply their margins are better on a whole through efficiency due to consolidation and economies of scale.

This is a tangent that doesn't change the basic principle that yes.. as part of buying a product, you are funding the expenses of the company. Including all overhead, salaries, etc. Some where this delusion was born that by agreeing to buy a product, that money is somehow locked ONLY to physically constructing THAT product... not pay for the R&D, the employees, the overhead, etc that the business needs to fund, and actually bring that piece to market. Yes, sometimes companies set out on programs they know will never make their money back because they are either showpieces, ego-pieces, or simply loss leaders intended to draw people into other products... but that doesn't change the fundamental concept that companies are funded on an ongoing basis from margins on sales of goods or services.

#15367 4 years ago
Quoted from limelime20:

Unbelivable BS, NO ONE bought into a company you RETARD, they bought into a PRODUCT ONLY..!! WHEN ONE PERSON SAID THEY
WOULD DELIVER A PINBALL for SAID MONEY$$$, that is the contract..NO MORE, NO LESS.

How do you think companies build and sell products?
No goes to Walmart and buys a "Token of support for Hasbro" in addition to buying their kid a Barbie - They buy a Hasbro toy that is sold at a price that includes markup beyond the physical cost of that piece... that funds the business. Hasbro is free to use that money on any project or salary it pleases. The consequence being if they chose poorly, they fail and lose money or go out of business.

Ideas like "I didn't buy a game to pay his salary" are simply statements of ignorance... mainly fueled by emotions, not any sort of rational thought or practical knowledge.

#15368 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

while I do not agree with the personal attack, it really is that simple.
exchange money for goods. K I S S.

And what funds the business? What f'in planet do you all live on where you think people sell stuff for a price that only includes that item?

Where do you all think businesses get their money to operate? Do you think every company just has some Angel that pays for everything while they only charge people costs and keep every dollar from every product in different silos?

A kid on a corner selling lemonade has more business sense then too many of you.

#15403 4 years ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

That's messed up. I have a college degree and I don't make close to that. Wonder if that's strictly cash or do you think he actually paid taxes on it? If not, $90k cash is a HELLUVA lot of money a year to noodle around.

Are you the executive of a company, responsible for all it's activities? I think 90k is actually pretty much on the conservative side given the role... one might even say intentionally conservative given the startup nature. Sure we could say he should have taken zero.. but he wasn't being lavish at that kind of number. I figured he'd be more like 150k.

#15404 4 years ago
Quoted from TaylorVA:

13 MGs at 16,000= 256k
3yrs salary@7500 a month=270k

Remember tho.. Zidware was aspiring to be more than just MG. He had ambitions for other revenue streams too. So it's not that extreme, but yeah, the numbers stink when you figure he was trying to build a 'no limits' pinball at the extreme end of lack of scale to diffuse the costs.

#15410 4 years ago
Quoted from TaylorVA:

In hindsight it seems laughable that he could have built with such little capital, but the onus is on John, not the customer, to make sure his retail price reflected those cost.

Sure, but the customers also shouldn't be irrational and upset when they learn the company spent product revenue on... the company's expenses.

This is why every company starts with SEED money - you can't startup a company with just sales revenue on your first product. The goal is to start generating money to show promise (and get more investment) or get cash neutral before the seed money runs out... John didn't do either.

No one has discussed how much seed money John started out with, or other revenue sources and instead assumed the only money in the pot was pre-order dollars. I'm sure the preorder was the dominate portion... but I doubt he started with 0 dollars before taking MG sales. If that's the case... a lot of the blame does go to the customers for taking such great risks. Why throw 5 digit numbers at a company with zero capital?

#15411 4 years ago
Quoted from BC_Gambit:

Yes and no. Considering Zidware's activities seemed to have amounted to noodling around not doing any/much of the hard work, $7500 a month of other people's money does seem lavish.
Buyers weren't funding John to have a 4 year sabbatical from the real world, or a really expensive daycare slot complete with arts and crafts for little Johnny P.

This again comes back to the failure of the business... vs the argument that one's salary is too high. The mistake is he ran the business in a fashion that was not sustainable... not that paying the executive of a R&D organization 90k is too much.

#15413 4 years ago
Quoted from tamoore:

So... You know how the story ends... and you still think 90k was a conservative number for a guy who is a complete and utter failure at what it was he was supposed to do? Really?

Given the role - yes it is a conservative number. Again, look at this objectively for what is involved, and stop thinking passionately about something as if it were your own. This was a business that paid expenses... the mistake is in the running of the business and the choices made.. not that you'd redefine the market value of job positions.

This is the guy who started no less than 5 game designs while not having a viable business plan for any of them..
This is the guy who filled out a large studio from the begining... while not having any plan for incoming revenue...
This is the guy who wanted caviar tastes for all aspect of his games... while completely ignoring the consequences on time and costs

Frankly, the decision on paying himself a salary or not really is not the worst of things and probably has zero impact on the viability of the company and projects anyway. All it was is just a large component of the burn-rate of the company. It really is of little consequence to if the project would have been successful or not.

Ok, let's assume John pays himself nothing... what do we get then? Oh look, instead of 4 years and no games, its now been 7 years and no games! Wonderful.. isn't the world a better place now?

This is all fueled by emotions... people wanting John to feel the pain they want.. vengeance.. etc. Other startups run super lean because they actually have skin in the game and feel urgency to succeed. By paying himself comfortably... John removed that motivation. This is just another of the business failure aspects of his choices.

#15415 4 years ago
Quoted from Methos:

That might be logical, if the capital was venture based or the owner/principal self financed, that is if the bank allows you to pay yourself that much. This case was funded not be investors, or owners, or equity principals, but with contractors for services and delivery of identified goods. Big difference.

Again.. which makes the choice a bad business decision - not that the number itself is out of wack. The sin is in the business plan and execution... not so much in the idea of 'Is the lead designer of our product line worth X dollars a year'

People need to separate the notion of 'how to run a business' from 'what is the market value of something'.

For instance his rent... the mistake is in renting that kind of space at that point in time.. more so than saying "did he over pay or not". The root problem is the decision process that should be looking at the sustainability of the business and the timelines.. and less about was something 1.50 a sq/t vs 1.25 a sq/ft.

#15416 4 years ago
Quoted from NYP:

Just curious how many times you're going to attempt the make the same point over and over?

the same could be said of those I'm replying too... But thanks for adding to the conversation.

#15419 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

since he has not delivered a single product, it seems pretty obvious that the crazy salary alone is a big part of why he has failed

You saw the game... what part of changing John's salary would have made the game better or more complete?? What poor choices in the game's design and plan do you attribute to John's salary distraction?

John's salary is basically two things in the project
1) The clock... a clock that ticks down until the money runs out
2) Motivation... the reality of failure or time equating to pain

When we look at what John has pulled together and the game's state - what things do you attribute to his salary situation besides simply the clock running out? If you had 3 more years because he had no salary.. what would change??

The project was going the wrong way... salary is just about how fast the car was going when it hit the wall dead on. Not that he would have avoided the wall.

#15422 4 years ago
Quoted from tamoore:

He used half of nearly a million dollars to pay himself for doing next to nothing. This is, in any objective view, overpaying for services rendered

Such is the luxury one has when you are your own boss.. the key is to have a business successful enough to be able to sustain it.

Wasteful? Surely.. because we are measuring his output. If Zidware delivered on their games and were building them.. would anyone be questioning the 90k number? No.. Is anyone comparing the 90k number to comparative positions in the industry or market? No...

They are simply saying "company failed, should not have spent that money". It was a bad business move.. like nearly all of his choices. Not that the number itself is a bad number or inflated.

#15429 4 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

No startup should pay themselves more than "basic living wage" until their company is up and running

*should* being the right word... because you're going in with the notion that money is tight and you want to succeed. Those are business decisions.. you try to run lean. The key concept is LEAN -- John's failure as a money man in his startup is missing that concept. Of course he also failed under his CEO hat, his designer hat, and his marketing hat.

Startups run lean where they can... but you don't get a 'startup discount' on things you need to buy on the open market.. or hire on.. etc.

For all we know this number was 'discounted' in John's brain.

It gets back to -- does this specific salary point change any of the outcome? No

BTW.. who wouldn't turn down a 60k job at Stern.. that's insulting if you are supposedly a role that only a handful of people can pull off and you're in a major metro area.

#15434 4 years ago
Quoted from BackFlipper:

When I started my business 23 years ago, my partner and I used our savings accounts to get started.
We did not take a salary.

That's a nice story - and yes, that's often what it takes to succeed. I've never challenged any of that. You made sacrifices in your attempt to succeed. These are choices - choices not all people make the same.. some succeed, some fail. Some do as you did and still fail.

I'm sure you made other choices too.. like "right sizing" any inventory you took on, or where you stored your stuff, or what kind of contracts you sourced. All of these choices are driven to the idea of prioritizing expenses and running lean because you are trying to operate within constraints and get to a point of sustainability.

To your point about motivation... its as I stated in another post..

Quoted from flynnibus:

John's salary is basically two things in the project
1) The clock... a clock that ticks down until the money runs out
2) Motivation... the reality of failure or time equating to pain

By paying himself comfortably up front... he removed some of that pain motivation which doesn't help when he has no other sanity check around him either.

In hindsight, we know JPop didn't have this prioritization and lean kind of thinking... not in the game design, not in his operations, not in his company direction.

None of that really changes what the market rate for what employees are worth though. The difference is if you actually pay people or trade them something instead... and in your case you were operating as an owner. John obviously never was... John started a business without any business sense or partners to give the business that balance.

Quoted from BackFlipper:

The problem is that John never had to go ALL IN. He didn't even put the tip in. If he did, his sole focus would have been on the BOM, making games, and getting them out the door SO HE COULD EVENTUALLY MAKE A PROFIT and get paid. If he had taken a $250K line of credit on his home, risked his kid's college fund, and been eating Ramen Noodles instead of Starbucks, we would all have games in our homes. The model certainly could have worked. Look at Ben and Charlie.

I think in hindsight we know the FINANCIALS could have worked given the prices charged - but I don't think it would have worked with John driving the boat. The company's output shows that.. the company didn't just run out of time.. they company was adrift, they had no valid business plan, and the product was bad.

The salary situation didn't sink the ship.. it just ensured a timely death.

#15435 4 years ago
Quoted from BackFlipper:

I have 50 employees today, and 70% of them make less than $50K right now. Somehow, they get by.
I guess I am insulting all of them.

Do any of them do a job as exclusive as pinball design and producer? Or any of them do any work where there is probably less than 3 dozen qualified people in the world to do it?

The role in question here is not that of a low tier employee, or new hire, or rank and file.

Someone go ask Larry De Mar if he'd switch to your company for 60k a year...

#15451 4 years ago
Quoted from BackFlipper:

Yep, it's much easier to fail with OPM (Opium) which is OTHER...PEOPLE'S...MONEY.

Agreed. The common theme here is lack of 'an adult' overseeing the show. Here we have the 'creative' with no business sense in him driving alone with no one with authority over him. Like someone said before... a good mechanic doesn't make a good shop owner. But here I'd even question him as a mechanic

#15452 4 years ago
Quoted from BackFlipper:

Last I checked, $60K is better than unemployment. If you have a family and no job, you take what you can get and work your ass off until somebody pays you more.

Is that your sales pitch when hiring people??

Quoted from BackFlipper:

If that's your only offer, I guess you are better off stealing it from the community that supported you? Is that what you're saying? What does Larry DeMar working for my company have to do with anything?

Because the discussion was over the market value of a head of a product development team in a highly complex, specialized market. Not what you happen to pay people.. because I'm pretty sure your business is not building coin op machines for the global market.

#15455 4 years ago
Quoted from BackFlipper:

When you choose a position where there are only 3 dozen positions available in the world, yes, you have to take what you can get because the odds of another one becoming available can be quite low

Are you Gary Stern?

Note I didn't say 3 dozen positions available.. I said three dozen people QUALIFIED to do the job. # of positions available doesn't drive market value, it's about qualified people vs # of positions.

You do what ever other pinball designer has done... switch fields. Their skill set is still highly valued even if not in pinball.

#15461 4 years ago
Quoted from BackFlipper:

1) Yep, you busted me.
2) No, I don't build coin op games for a global market. But, when I interview a person for a job, I pay them based on their skill level and market value for the position they are interviewing for. I can't pay somebody based on what they used to make "back in the good old days - the roaring 90's!" I do, however, interview plenty of them that made $150K in their past, but bring $40K of experience in my industry. Some earn their way back to $100K+, some do not. $100K+ talent always rises to the top.

Ok, so again... Larry De Mar comment. Try hiring the head of a coin-op game production company for 60k to do that same job. Stern wasn't hiring people to do your company's line of work.. so again your comments about what you pay your 50 employees has absolutely nothing to do with any of this. Yes, people live in Chicago on less than 60k a year... and what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

#15468 4 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

Alright, let me try and tackle this point so we can move on:
You and BackFlipper are not saying things entirely differently, you just think you are. Basically, you are saying JPop paid himself like anyone in a similar position (running a coin-op production company) would have paid himself. You note his salary had no impact on the game being made, only how fast (or slow) the collapse occurred.

Correct - at the end of the day... this guy was the principle designer and director of what was supposed to be a game manufacturer. That job's value has nothing to do with whatever Backflipper pays his employees as he's not in the same business. The point being made was.. the wage of 90k is not some crazy number for the lead principle in a company that is also the lead in product development. The notion that it's a startup - is a separate element.

Quoted from TigerLaw:

BackFlipper is saying JPop overpaid himself, took the profits out of the front end, and should not have been paid like he was.
You both make good points, this is what I see: JPop over paid himself as someone running a coin-up production company that had no product and no investors

It's a business choice... which is why I hang that failure on their lack of business plan and sense. People do get paid in startups.. its not some universal law that no one gets paid till the book is in the black. Most make sacrifices in exchange for equity. Many business owners make sacrifices purely to keep the damn thing afloat. None of that is contrary to what I've said. What matters is what the business leaders prioritized and if they had a legit plan and strategy to get to the finish line. JPop DIDN'T. It doesn't matter what rate he paid Zombie Yeti, or himself, or other help as long as those rates were within prevailing wages. What matters is the prioritization and how that meshed with the company's goals. Failing to make changes when things didn't go to original plan are all business failures.

Yes, a guy motivated for success with a personal vestment in the company would prioritize getting the company to revenue generation over paying themselves full wages. Maybe even more than paying themselves 60% wages.. or even any wages. But that is only one piece of the puzzle and really in hindsight we know this wasn't the dealbreaker.

Let's play hindsight and say John pays himself nothing.. and now there is an extra 300k in the pot. What happens now?
- Are vendors paid in full? Unlikely.. he would use the same methodology to pinch pennies again. John's vendor problems didn't start when the piggy bank hit 'zero'
- Are refunds given? Unlikely.. he's not given refunds willingly period
- Would people know more about the game's condition? Unlikely.. we only now know because of the implosion
- Is the game any different? No, its still the same designer
- Is the game finished? No, its not been the funds holding the game up

What would be different? Probably the only thing different would be is delaying the point where we are now.. maybe between now and that future point someone would save the project... but if it hasn't happened by now, what's the likelihood of that?

John's salary didn't create the bad game... or cause him to screw vendors.. or cause him to be paranoid.. or cause him to run the company into the ground. JOHN did all those things.

Failing to subscribe to the 'all in' theory is only one of his faults.. and not the one that created a bad game years behind schedule.

#15479 4 years ago
Quoted from Honch:

Are you high? On what planet does his salary not affect his ability to pay his creditors? I think maybe it's time to leave it alone.

Every business starts with expenses that exceed income. The key is to get to cash positive before you pot of money runs out or your ability to refill it. Tricks like running lean only intend to extend your runtime - they don't change the core concepts.

Face it.. John broke his vendor relationships.. silo'd vendors... acted like a nutjob... did countless revisions on art.. all before he ran out of money.

____His business didn't fail because he paid himself salary______ The other things would have sunk it all the same.

This is a point because people are upset they took a loss while John got to live comfortably on their dollar.

#15482 4 years ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

Flynn said:
"It gets back to -- does this specific salary point change any of the outcome? No"
Actually it does. That is money that could have been spent on materials or employees who could have completed prototypes, etc.

I'll just copy and paste to save myself time...
Let's play hindsight and say John pays himself nothing.. and now there is an extra 300k in the pot. What happens now?
- Are vendors paid in full? Unlikely.. he would use the same methodology to pinch pennies again. John's vendor problems didn't start when the piggy bank hit 'zero'
- Are refunds given? Unlikely.. he's not given refunds willingly period
- Would people know more about the game's condition? Unlikely.. we only now know because of the implosion
- Is the game any different? No, its still the same designer
- Is the game finished? No, its not been the funds holding the game up

All of the problems existed BEFORE THE MONEY RAN OUT. So how does having more money fix it? All it does is delay the inevitable.

Quoted from cody_chunn:

"Not what you happen to pay people.. because I'm pretty sure your business is not building coin op machines for the global market."
How many Magic Girls were slated? That's a pretty small globe.

Well luckily for everyone else in the coin-op and on-prem entertainment business... the market is bigger than Magic Girl.

#15484 4 years ago
Quoted from rommy:

His experience prior to Zidware will be the rope we use to hang him. He was very experienced and presented himself that way. Look at all the guarantees over the years. The "I don't do business that way" and "I refund promptly if customers not happy" statements. He worked at Williams. He knew what it took to build a machine. Inexperience in this case , if that's his plea, will not be a defense here. He has more experience than most people on the planet.

I think the recurring theme we see is... sounds like he likes to take credit for other people's work. So he thinks he can do all these things... when in fact it was the organization around him filling in the holes and correcting his course. Take away those aids.. and we get zidware :/

Sometimes you get people that boast and just knowingly lie to keep things moving... other times you get people that are really disillusioned and think they really did those things He sounds more like the latter to me.

#15487 4 years ago
Quoted from gweempose:

Of course they are upset, and when you keep on telling these people that John's salary was completely justified, you shouldn't be surprised that it makes them even more upset. Whether you are right or wrong is beside the point. You are basically rubbing salt into the wound.

Sure.. lets go back to the pitchfork crew dreaming they are going to raid the shop, grab the prototype like pirates and tear it into 200 equal shares, or that JPop is going to have the police kicking in his door so he should think about going into hiding, etc.

People may not like the facts - but they are still the facts. Best to face them and learn to adapt then to sit around in a big circle jerk and flame away at how we THINK the world should be.

#15501 4 years ago
Quoted from jwilson:

"Popaduik, I served with Larry DeMar. I knew Larry DeMar. Larry DeMar was a friend of mine. Popaduik, you're no Larry DeMar."

The comparison was never to say the people are equivalent.. but discussing the JOB. There is a reason companies under Larry's guidance have been successful, while John was not One could fill the shoes, the other could not.

#15585 4 years ago
Quoted from PinballHelp:

I am going to go out on a limb here and think perhaps you don't have much "start-up" experience

Or.. you should just try reading the other posts where I speak exactly to the topic of burn rate/runway/etc and why taking that kind of money has its consequences.

The posts justifying 90k as a principle for the company were about the role_ - not just the role in a startup. You won't win any criminal proceedings arguing he was embezzling with 'its a startup.. he shouldn't be allowed to be paid that much' if the expenses are in line with market values.

#15587 4 years ago
Quoted from PinballHelp:

I can pull up a CAD program and design a playfield, and then move things around.
I can bat a ball around on a whitewood and say, "let's put a pop bumper over there and a flipper up there."
I can dictate a ruleset.
Almost anyone in this forum, if they had the resources traditional designers had at their fingertips: software people, dot matrix designers, mechanical engineers, art departments, etc. could also design a pinball machine.
So exactly what special unique ability do these three dozen people have? Enquiring minds want to know.

Oh you're right... it's so trivial a chimp could find success in that business. In fact, the world seems overflowing with past successful game studio leads. You basically just trivialized every profession out there with that mindset.

I guess it's just dumb luck on what games and companies succeed. How did any of us ever miss that?

#15606 4 years ago
Quoted from dgarrett:

Larry is a damn good business man. You produce value, and you get paid. John didn't produce, he shouldn't get paid. Simple.

So you're saying every employee that does a bad job.. and you goto fire them... you ask them to return the salary you already paid them? Yeah, how's that going for you?

You're using hindsight to revoke what was already done.. pure genius.

You guys literally act like no one has ever had to live with the consequences of bad choices.

#15607 4 years ago
Quoted from dgarrett:

Well then, time to put all this posting wisdom and energy into the pinball business of Flynntasia. Walk with me.... When are you hiring 4-5 guys at 90k and year and showing us your first whitewood. What's the theme and price point? Who's financing it? = unless you start making those kind of posts, your repetitiveness is worthless

The bleeding irony here is why didn't people scrutinize JPop that way before giving him their money.

Quoted from dgarrett:

If you can blow $500k a year on salaries, and make 500 games, starting tomorrow, selling at $6k - $5k bill of materials, so the $1k x 500 cover just your annual salaries - go for it. Who pays for the shop, tools, rent, and healthcare? Oops, the games now cost $8k. How about a little profit and some extra for the design kitty for game 2? Oops, charge $10k.
You keep saying you or Jpop can do that? Build pinballs? at a profit? Profit, you keep using that word, I don't think it means what you think it means. ... your model says 500 at 10k, and can't deliver.
Oh yeah, that pesky uncomfortable truth - Spooky builds 150 games a year, at $6k and makes it work.

What on earth are you babbling about? Your making strawmans left and right to make yourself feel better?

#15611 4 years ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

john is not an employee, he took money to build pinballs, not "try" to build pinballs

I suggest you lookup the concept of a corporation and get back to us.

#15629 4 years ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

no problem
Doesn't apply to John since he's not a corporation (in the sense of hierachy, or stock investments), he's a one man show

No... Zidware is a incorporated corporation in the state of Illinois. People were buying games from Zidware.. not JPop as an individual. JPop is the president of zidware, and likely the sole shareholder.. or some scheme of shareholders he controls. John is an officer, and can be an employee of zidware.. including getting paid, and being isolated from the legal entity of Zidware within certain constraints.

So like I said... go and lookup a corporation... and you can lookup corporations in Illinois too

#15658 4 years ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

until we saw the books

So what are you willing to share about your investigation... since you seem to be the only ones who may have some true insight into the going forward state of the corp?

#15703 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

It's my opinion that WOOLY is impossible to make/sell with the current design.
$8k is just really expensive. Spooky is proving that there's a way to build limited and cool pins for $6k (AMH maybe doesn't have the art polish, but Rob Zombie will, and licensed music to boot).
There are some games that are that much, but they have some extra things going on. WOZ and Hobbit have full RGB lighting systems, full color LCD screens with high quality animation, lots of licensed sounds and original music, etc.
TBL has the same kind of stuff, with a cool wide screen full color display. 26 songs, etc.
WOOLY has the old LED DMD.

Technology Hasn't stopped people from throwing money at companies for games sight unseen (RZ, whatever Stern is next..). I mean, when people send money before they know anything about the game... I doubt what generation the technology is used is that much of a factor

#15704 4 years ago
Quoted from dgarrett:

I'm not in to JPop for any money, I don't need to "feel better". You do realize down votes means folks don't agree with you. You also should read and follow the many requests to not repeat yourself, again, one more time, repeatedly. Pushing the "ignore" button felt really good.

Wait... so you quote me and talk to me.. and then act like I should not reply? uhh.. no

and who gives a f about up/down votes... even seeing them means going backwards to find them.. ego much?

Repeat myself? I didn't set the topic when you posted TO ME. Use the ignore... it matches your head in the sand t-shirt. People can't handle basic truths and would rather hide from them. Sucks to be you.

#15791 4 years ago
Quoted from PinballHelp:

I still do not understand why people are worrying about a civil case. What JPop did was clearly criminal

You keep using this word... I do not think it means what you think it means...

#15792 4 years ago
Quoted from TaylorVA:

How is lying about progress not a crime when the sole intent of the lie is to create more incoming capital and then that capital is diverted to something other than the intended purpose?

Because promising to deliver a game... delivering which can be done via many many paths. Where was this capital 'diverted'? There is no constraint that says revenue from a product must goto building that product. Spending revenue on zidware initiatives and expenses is not criminal - stupid? sure.. but failing is not criminal.

People were paying to have a game delivered by Zidware... zidware could have still sold the idea and had someone else build and deliver the games as just one of many possible avenues. Taking money before that path is realized is not criminal.

Lying about progress is a grey area that would be very difficult to pursue - we're not talking securities violations here where John is selling investors on false pretenses, we're talking about simple consumer protection laws. Those result in fines and refunds.. not criminal violations.

People here are customers - not investors. Whole separate ball of wax..

#15793 4 years ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

John was still collecting money across state lines for games he new would never be made!
How is that not a crime?

For the same kind of reasons Kevin could argue "negotiations are still ongoing" - even if you think they are probably never going to end favorable.

#15797 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

you should not talk about what you do not know and is not in favor of helping anyone but the criminals

Ignorance doesn't change the law... you can hide from it and wish it was different... but you're only fooling yourself...

The better informed people are.. the better chance they won't make mistakes again.

#15798 4 years ago
Quoted from rommy:

John said he was going to build these games himself. He even said he would come to your house to complete assembly. He promised to make these himself and we relied an that promise when we gave him money

Is that a condition in your contract? If not.. its just part of the sales pitch which is non-binding and could be changed as conditions dictated.

#15810 4 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Are you an attorney?

Are you countering what I said?

If I recall - I'm not the one convicting people in this thread...

#15813 4 years ago
Quoted from rommy:

I didn't realize you were a lawyer and qualified to give legal advice here. I mean if you are going to be the judge I guess you can save us all a lot of time and money. Would you mind calling Zane Smith and explaining the futility of his legal case?

You can try to split hairs.. but its pointless without the whole thing on the table.. and since you aren't Zane Smith, I won't be dragged into your 'but there is stuff I can't say' drama. If his angle is 'he promised to build itself himself' and that's why it's fraud or something worse.. good luck with that. You're going to argue that the value and decision to buy the game hinged significantly on the fact John would be doing it personally, and not contracted out? I hope you win.. but I'd also call you a fool... because who wants a loofy goofball creative responsible for doing something highly process based like manufacturing with consistency and quality.

Quoted from rommy:

Then all victims can turn to you here. I guess "lay down and take it" is at the top of your agenda? No consequences for anyone involved? There are a lot of conditions in that contract and since you are the expert on its contents you already know he promised to make them himself. But your advice, again, is lay down and take it, drop all legal action, oh and try to be nicer to john Popadiuk ?

No, but thanks for continuing to try to attack anyone who has nerve to try to say anything that doesn't fuel the flaming pitchfork crew into more of a frenzy. Yes, anyone who sticks to reality is on Jpop's team in your mind...

The best thing that can happen out of the civil actions is uncovering potential impropriety stuff that could further expose jpop's liability. But claims like "he spent my RAZA money on MG" or "he took orders knowing he wasn't going to build it himself" aren't going to go very far.

#15817 4 years ago
Quoted from YKpinballer:

You are not going to stop anybody from litigating, why are you arguing?

I can't convince people the world is round either... doesn't mean if they post in a discussion forum the world is flat I don't have the equal opportunity to say otherwise.

Maybe you could start a list of criminal activities Jpop has committed on an anonymous posting site and link it here to keep things fueled?

#15836 4 years ago
Quoted from YKpinballer:

I'm just asking why you have to convince this one person so badly that JPop is innocent of any criminal wrongdoing when every person reading knows you have no clue about that. For a fact.

1) I've never said JPop is innocent of any wrong doing - I've just corrected specific accusations
2) I'm not correcting 'one person' - this has been many different topics with different people

Common thread? You generalizing and missing the actual important distinctions. Kind of like most of the stuff I've been debunking here... people getting wound up and missing the important distinctions that actually MATTER to the relevancy of the matter.

You and a handful of others don't like that your repeated attempts to come up with something, are mostly just hail marys that won't hold up. The common thing is you see me debunking them and you lump it all together as 'defending jpop'. It's not defending jpop.. its actually simply debunking BS to keep things from swirling into some demented fantasy.

Some just don't like that reality trumps their emotions. Instead of spending so much energy on emotional charges... people should be focusing on aspects that would be fruitful in getting restitution or taking jpop down.

Or we can just wall this place off and let the lunitics run around screaming their heads off until they tire out. Because that's what it seems most people want... don't rain on my parade with your truths!

#15837 4 years ago
Quoted from loren3233:

Funny...I received an email from Kevin stating "As the project is forced to prematurely close"

Funny... one is also allowed to change their mind if points of no return are not crossed. And he did go on record in the court with a defense of ongoing negotiations and arguing they are still trying to make the project work. Of course I personally think he's delusional and there is absolute zero chance of that.. but he can argue (and has) he's still trying to salvage it. Plushe doesn't have people forcing him into insolvency either as of yet. So.. in theory he can still be trying. It's the legal truth, doesn't mean we have to like it.

#15839 4 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

I'm countering all of your cocky holier than thou attitude posts, and your attempts to school people on the law.

So that would be a 'no'. If I'm wrong on something, please chime in and correct me so we all move forward.

Quoted from RobT:

Many of your posts come across as telling owners that they just need to suck it up and that it's their own fault for buying a game from JPop

Again.. things I didn't say. But I do find the irony so hysterical that people want to scrutinize me so much yet they (en large) wouldn't do the same before cutting checks for many thousands of dollars.. many times... can't do simple things like lookup a company in Illinois, or even read the contract they still have... but hey, let's shout down flynnibus because he's forcing us to face what we don't want to.

Personally I do want to see the likes of jpop and similar face the music for their choices. But I also live in the reality that simply buyer angst isn't enough to cause that to happen, nor is it *likely* that people will get a majority of their funds back.. no matter what the outcome.

Just go back a few weeks ago and people were like "I'd never accept 75% back.." - I just had to laugh... 75% would be gift in most outcomes and yet people are still holding out like 100% or nothing!!! Sometimes people just don't want to face the truth.

#15844 4 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

You just don't know when to quit, do you?!
You accuse me of saying you said things you didn't say (regarding it being all the buyers fault for buying a game from JPop), and then you immediately follow that up by..... going on to talk about how it's the buyers fault for buying a game from JPop!

Yes Mr Esquire... because there is a difference between saying something, and agreeing with something similar at a later date. Hey, I didn't even need law school to work through that. What's your excuse then?

Was there a sign on the door that says this is the pitty club only? I must have missed it.

#15855 4 years ago
Quoted from Sparky347:

I clicked "ignore flynnibus" and the little fire icon went away on this thread, what's that about?

Posts in thread:
frolic - 909
iceman44 - 843
RobT - 348
YKpinballer - 248
toyotaboy - 229
dgarrett - 160
Whysnow - 137
flynnibus - 116
Pinballs - 104
Pinballhelp - 82

Oh but I know.. facts... facts??!! hide your eyes! yet another example of emotion over facts. The new motto of a thread in flames... burn the books! Listen to the instigators, not the rational. Please return to your normal flailing.

#15875 4 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

It would appear that more than 100 of your posts in this thread have been in just the last 3 weeks.
All after JPop said he was insolvent. So your "facts" come a bit late, don't you think? Lots of hindsight posting by you it would seem.

1) Once again.. doing some homework before attacking people might do you some good. I didn't list the breakdown because I figured people would be like 'get a life' but if figured some of the high post count would go there or leap without looking. So before throwing that stone, do you want to look at the makeup of others in that list? Go back 1month to when it all started to hit the fan.

Pinballs, 101/104 - 97%
Pinballhelp 81/82 - 98.7%
Y2kpinballer 142/249 - 57%
Whysnow 136/137 - 99.2%
dgarrett 159/160 - 99.3%
RobT - Approx 60% of your posts (not wasting time counting each) - so about 200
iceman44 - Approx 50% - so about 420 posts
frolic - Approx 50% - so about 450 posts

me? 112/116 - 96% - yet only a fraction of this group.. and far less than yourself or some others. Really.. you should be better prepared before you throw that stone.

2) re: hindsight - Once again, you interject your own BS to try to tear me down. Reading is fundamental. I never claimed to know BEFORE hand how things would go, nor is there any 'I told you so'. It's mainly correcting flailing like "zidware isn't a corporation", "john isn't an employee", "john needs to return his salary", "you can't pay people in a startup", "failing is criminal", "he spent my raza money on MG, so he's a criminal", blah blah blah.

You keep attacking me by tearing down shit you completely make up. You dodge and weave and refuse to face the actual meat of the matter. Did I post something wrong? If so, correct it so we can all move forward. Otherwise, please try actually reading posts and sticking to what they say.. not what you_ think they mean. If you need help, ask your neighbor to read it for you.

#15976 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

So with those Nemos now being delivered, it IS possible to create a low-production custom game, as long as you don't siphon all the money for wages and monthly expenses like office space.

Possible to make... But is it a business? How much will the guy lose in the deal at the end of the day. A game of passion shouldnt be compared with someone trying to make a living at it

Ben and others have already proven you can hand make games. Yet spooky is the only one coming close enough to actually call it a job

#15997 4 years ago
Quoted from woodworker:

I don't know about that. It shows that a man who's full-time profession is NOT pinball managed to complete and ship a custom run of 14 games with a TOTAL budget of under 80K in less time than John Popadiuk, who was working "14 hours a day, 7 days a week" on his projects with a million dollar budget

Except... he hasn't shipped a run of 14 games, nor has he completed the game -- just delivered the near-finished game to his first customer. Again, back to the point, lots of people have built custom games.. Building a pinball company is not just about building one or a handful of prototypes... its a lot harder to actually get those games to production, sell, and do it cheap enough you can afford to keep doing it and actually making a living off of it (the original comment).

Antonio's work is an amazing example of a boutique game and I'm sure the game will be quite stunning when completed. But I don't think his, like other projects like The Matrix, Ben's games, WOOLY, and numerous other customs have a lot of relevancy when it comes to what should be expected behaviors/traits from a company that legitimately is trying to make a BUSINESS out of it.. and actually make a living. Not just a personal passion. Spooky is the closest we have to that business reality.. but he too relies on family to fill the gaps and I'm sure is probably still way in the hole when it comes to actually being in the black across the board. DP looks to trying to be a legit one as well. It can still be a long gap between surviving and 'making a living'. I wish none of them ill-harm, but its still a big difference between being able to make a game, and be a pinball company...

#16006 4 years ago
Quoted from woodworker:

Building a pinball company is about building a selling games, whether its 1, 15 or 5000. If a company wants to sell a handful of prototypes, they can do just that! Your original comment was about it not being relevant. John was a one-man show trying to develop, build and sell a game. Antonio is a one-man show who developed, built and sold a game. Sounds relevant to me. We are seeing first hand that it can be done, and you have to start somewhere.

The relevancy didn't have to do with it being a one person attempt... But as you edited out of the quote... About doing it in a way that you can actually make money at it and as a business. Hence the point about passion projects not really being relevant.

And John never set out with the ambition for these games to be a single person job. Even in his weird mind he knows he doesn't have all the skills needed and has hired in help the entire way.

Is agree with the points that Antonio and others have proven you don't need a big team to design something... But the comment was not about getting a concept together but actually doing it as a sustainable business

Clearly others have done more with less than john... But I think by now we all know the limiting factor for zidware was not resources...

#16021 4 years ago

Paypal invoices went to paid for the AIW art.. so I assume they are nearly ready to trickle out... but yes, the irony of sliding dates is kind of funny. But for $43.. I'll risk it

#16039 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballrockstar:

But I got $5645 back.

Thanks awesome news and glad to hear you got the majority of your money back. One less person deeply hurt by this mess!

1 week later
#16182 4 years ago

Payoffs for patents tends to come from companies with big initiatives to push for them in addition to your normal business... otherwise others may go 'oh hrm, good job'

Cisco for instance has payouts for ones that get submitted, and ones that get approved. And some locations put people up on the walls showing how many they have, etc..

#16345 4 years ago
Quoted from TaylorVA:

But why defend him? That's the question.

Because he doesn't want the market overtaken with the idea of extra scrutiny or concerns that vendors are unscrupolous... which would continue to hurt his ability to draw money out of people.

"Pinball company fails..." is far less damning to the open market than "Pinball companies are scams" floating around

... and furthering the idea that the mob-mentality Pinside is part of the "problem" and actually causes harm suits Jack's position as well.

1 week later
#16697 4 years ago
Quoted from Xerico:

The contract does not require an explicit performance penalty. FTC rules and regulations already provide one.

Care to cite these FTC rules for reference?

#16792 4 years ago
Quoted from Xerico:

Link to FTC rules
Important Text from the link
* What Does the Rule Cover? *
It applies to most goods a customer orders from the seller by mail, telephone, fax, or on the Internet.
It does not matter how the merchandise is advertised, how the customer pays, or who initiates the contact.
* What is the Mail, Internet, or Telephone Order Rule? *
The Rule requires that when you advertise merchandise, you must have a reasonable basis for stating or implying that you can ship within a certain time. If you make no shipment statement, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days. That is why direct marketers sometimes call this the "30-day Rule."
If, after taking the customer’s order, you learn that you cannot ship within the time you stated or within 30 days, you must seek the customer’s consent to the delayed shipment. If you cannot obtain the customer’s consent to the delay -- either because it is not a situation in which you are permitted to treat the customer’s silence as consent and the customer has not expressly consented to the delay, or because the customer has expressly refused to consent -- you must, without being asked, promptly refund all the money the customer paid you for the unshipped merchandise.
* What You Must Do If You Learn You Cannot Ship on Time *
When you learn that you cannot ship on time, you must decide whether you will ever be able to ship the order. If you decide that you cannot, you must promptly cancel the order and make a full refund.
If you decide you can ship the order later, you must seek the customer’s consent to the delay. You may use whatever means you wish to do this -- such as the telephone, fax, mail, or email -- as long as you notify the customer of the delay reasonably quickly. The customer must have sufficient advance notification to make a meaningful decision to consent to the delay or cancel the order.
Some businesses adopt internal deadlines that are earlier than those set by the Rule to ensure that their delay notices give all customers a meaningful opportunity to consent to the delay. If businesses fail to ship or give delay notifications by their internal deadlines, they automatically cancel the orders and make refunds.
In any event, no notification to the customer can take longer than the time you originally promised or, if no time was promised, 30 days. If you cannot ship the order or provide the notice within this time, you must cancel the order and make a prompt refund.
* How Quickly You Must Make a Refund *
When you must make a Rule-required refund, the following applies:
If the customer paid by cash, check, money order, or by credit where a third party is the creditor, or by any other method except credit where you are a creditor, you must refund the correct amount within seven working days after the order is cancelled.
If the customer paid by credit where you are a creditor, you must credit the customter's account or notify the customer that the account will not be charged within one billing cycle after the order is cancelled.
* How Much You Must Refund *
If you cannot ship any of the merchandise ordered by the customer, you must refund the entire amount the customer "tendered," including any shipping, handling, insurance, or other costs. If you ship some, but not all, of the merchandise ordered, you must refund the difference between the total amount paid and the amount the customer would have paid, according to your ordering instructions, for the shipped items only.
For example, if you charge a flat fee for shipping and handling regardless of the total number or cost of the items ordered, you need not refund any shipping and handling charges if you ship some items. On the other hand, if your shipping and handling charges are indexed to the number of items or the dollar amount of the order, you can keep only those shipping and handling charges that are appropriate to the number or dollar amount of the items actually shipped.
* When making Rule-required refunds, you cannot substitute credit toward future purchases, credit vouchers, or scrip. *
When the order is paid for in whole or in part by proofs of purchase, coupons, or other promotional devices, you must provide "reasonable compensation" to the customer for the proofs of purchase plus any shipping, handling, or other charges the customer paid. (The circumstances of each promotion may affect what is deemed to be reasonable.)
* Why You Should Comply with the Rule *
Merchants who violate the Rule can be sued by the FTC for injunctive relief, monetary civil penalties of up to $16,000 per violation (any time during the five years preceding the filing of the complaint), and consumer redress (any time during the three years preceding the filing of the complaint). When the mails are involved, the Postal Service also has authority to take action for problems such as non-delivery. State law enforcement agencies can take action for violating state consumer protection laws.
Apart from this, your failure to ship on time, or your failure to notify your customers promptly about delays and to obtain their consent to the delays, or your failure to make full and prompt refunds when your customers do not consent to delayed shipment, can adversely affect your business by discouraging repeat purchases. Accordingly, most businesses regard compliance with the Rule as simply good business practice.

Cool - I have a long time friend who actually works at the ftc in consumer protection. I was just asking her about this tonight and its application to jpop and she agrees this is up that alley. She can't state that the ftc will pursue but she encouraged everyone to file a complaint. She also said if I give her a summary she will take it internally and hand it to the appropriate people.

If anyone has a cliff notes version readily handy.. I'll be happy to hand it on

#16870 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

In comparison, the Stern stuff looked like he was mostly "going through the motions" on mostly licensed gigs.

But what does that say when the games are mostly projects PLD did, that they just handed over to Stern to manufacture? They were games built by Pat in his studio under his label.

3 weeks later
#17153 4 years ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

I've also heard stories where people will order a T-1 line for a month, then cancel it. In order to provide a T-1 line, that requires them to run the lines and equipment. Then since the backbone is there, you can order a more affordable service like DSL.

Except that would be a crapshoot. T1 can still run over copper much further than DSL... the limiting factor for T1 is simply available 'space' in terms of trunk cabling. DSL on the other hand is limited by distance from the headend and can be blocked by certain technology. Net result... getting a T-1 to your house won't make the CO any closer nor will it garuntee they'd extend anything but physical wiring (and hence, not extending the reach).

2 weeks later
#17317 4 years ago
Quoted from hank527:

Apparently him and his wife are having issues. This is the reason for the van statement

Well that's one way to insulate assets....

4 weeks later
#17737 4 years ago

Thank you to the thread for saving me from taking a chance and listening to the interview.

1 week later
#18041 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

Apparently there was "insider" knowledge that Jpop was a loon, but that was not known to the wider community until just this past year, and even just this past month with the C2C interview. So, I don't blame us pinheads who were excited to be in on something cool.

Python called him out on a podcast years ago. The guy had no story on how he'd complete the journey.. and had no experience running a company. There were plenty of warnings - just the excitement of getting into something special overtook most.

6 months later
#18835 3 years ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Unless he had a set delivery date, nothing is breached. He can go to court and state he is still working on it.

Check out the FTC rules regarding shipping and sliding schedules

#18847 3 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

Interesting.... I recall some similar rules paypal had that it seemed Jpop violated as well...
Wondering how this law might apply to the sliding delivery dates of the other boutiques (JJP, DP, etc)? Seems like this could touch their practices as well?

problem is enforcement. You basically have to sue, or hope the government choses to sue to enforce it. It gives you an avenue, but its still on you to pursue.

2 months later
#18970 3 years ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

His customers gave him money in exchange for a pinball machine. They did not agree to pay his salary.

Yeah you did... That's what happens when you pay for a product.

#18978 3 years ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

You're lost.
I can't even engage you in this bs argument.

translated: you can't even defend your own BS

I get it your upset.. but don't start creating your own realities to try to make yourself feel better. Next you'd be arguing you paid for a pinball machine, not actual TOOLS or SPACE to build it...

People who work for free or put themselves last in line do it because of sacrifice to try to make it work... not because they weren't within reason to take pay. They sacrifice themselves to put the business above their own near-term needs. JPOP didn't -- that's a personal choice.

If it bothers you so much about how the guy ran his business... maybe you should have scrutinized him and his plans a bit more up front. Otherwise, suck it up and accept he wasn't running a 'succeed or die trying' type of business.

#18992 3 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

We are all sitting here with the advantage of hindsight. Don't be a dick about it.

Im not arguing, just stopping the runaway train of crazy sh$& people drum up to try to rile others up to their emotional level.

Sometimes reality sucks, but that's no reason to live in fantasy.

1 month later
#19231 3 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

So thinking about this new company some more....
Based on those weird job postings, it's like they ARE a completely new pinball start up. And not an "investor" in zidware or John.

Posting jobs is essentially free.. it doesn't get weird until they actually start hiring people and paying them to do stuff.

Remember... sometimes it can cost you less in the long run to burn a little bit of cash to keep some farce running.

3 weeks later
#19336 3 years ago

Well maybe if they hire Kevin... We can get all the scum of the hobby into one bucket.... And then nuke it from orbit

#19365 3 years ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

A lot of people are tying JPOP to this company, which though is most likely true, hasn't been proven yet.

Would be the world's greatest coincidence of 2016 if he and/or Magic Girl isn't part of this.

#19392 3 years ago
Quoted from Rascal_H:

"By the end of 2016, Magic Girl machines will be delivered to their rightful owners."

In the continued spirit of zidware... We show you... EMPTY CABINETS!!!

That's right folks... We expect you to be thrilled with cabinets and we hope you come see our reveal of our next CABINET at expo!

#19410 3 years ago
Quoted from OLDPINGUY:

What do you want Pinside to do?
American Pinball is a separate legal entity.
They cannot act as a Police.
Jpop while wrong, and worthy of all your anger, can create a company, take money and fuck up.
He can go bankrupt or get sued.
What is that you want?

Maybe a new legal entity...nut still playing with assets and individuals tied up in the old entities. Remember bill claimed he had the rights to MG.... And what did we just get? A claim of this new company to build those games.

This isn't just jpop as an individual anymore...

#19468 3 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

Enough money and anything can be fixed.
Maybe the new money man thinks they'll make enough on Houdini to take the loss on MG?
Remember they only have to make 25 of them. The big problem is Raza.

The corporate hq of American pinball didn't exactly project superfluous funds ready to drop on insignificant things

#19486 3 years ago
Quoted from TimeBandit:

I'll take a plain old warehouse over a glitzy, marble-clad corporate hq as a sign of real money any day.

The place screamed "shell company". If you plan on buying your way out of problems... Usually you see hints of that elsewhere too

#19527 3 years ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

I see the small changes to the art, but in reference to the slope. The early picture was taken with the legs on versus AP picture without the legs.
(Just speculation)

If that were the difference the back box would not be vertical when different legs were installed. They are vertical now... Hence the cabinet angle would not change in the final installed configuration

#19529 3 years ago
Quoted from Cornelius:

I just don't feel that history should be re-written to be like "oh well, it's not like his games are so great".

The reason this gets so much contention is because when people argue over this they ignore the dimensions of measuring a game that they don't necessarily value the same. Most of his games are not great player games and pretty easy to master. Hence they lose "value" to many people... While their great art/sound/approachability are positives for other kinds of collectors.

Measuring a game means being objective to all the dimensions and trying to sum them all up. Many can't do that.

Because there are far more collectors than really advanced playing collectors.. Games like Tom,totan,cv, have always demanded a premium that exceeds their player value or value as a total game. And that over valuation also makes them a lightning rod... Leading to more hate

#19530 3 years ago
Quoted from hardware:

Since JPOP is only a designer I never understood why people felt comfortable giving him money?
If I took a guess people didn't think at all and just gave him money. That's would be crazy if true.

Hype..speculation... And artificial, fake, special opportunity belief jpop spun up with his secrecy and teases.

Nothing about it was rational... It was all speculative and emotional. People thought jpop was the driving force that lead to those memorable titles. They just ignored or were oblivious that ying normally needs a yang to be whole.

People bought into the artist... And ignored that this was a startup business too. If jpop had a business majority owner to start with... Things could have been very different. Jpop sold on the "design is the most important" mantra... Which can not go unchecked when you need to run a business.

#19538 3 years ago
Quoted from rotordave:

That would be correct if headboxes were actually vertical when the machine was on legs. But that's not the case. They lean forward on an angle.
I haven't run a ruler over those cabinets but they certainly don't look stock BW size to me. Closer to JPOP than BW.

Yes they tilt forward... But not much. Roughly 6deg. Do you think 6 deg is the difference between the slope of the jpop cabinet and the wpc cabinet rail? At. 43.5 inch run... 6 degrees is about 4.5 inches of additional height. I don't know the dimensions of the jpop cab.

But looking at the bottom edge of the cabinet hinge between the two photos of jpop and AP... It does look like the cabinet has a long way to go up until it's in the position we saw from jpop. So I've changed my mind... I agree with pdxmoney and you

#19540 3 years ago
Quoted from rotordave:

Always good to keep an open mind. And never deal in absolutes.

Always some ppl just expect you to follow them verse them being convincing

#19564 3 years ago
Quoted from MinusWorlds:

All I'm saying is they think they have a plan in place that will achieve that.

Outlined as what?

#19708 3 years ago
Quoted from radium:

What does this mean? Hell if I know.

That they used recycled buzzwords and fluff speak that many others do the same. Business is full of that crap... it only means they take shortcuts and aren't passionate about their marketing. But we would conclude that from a lot of other stuff too

#19712 3 years ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

Global gaming expo exhibit starts tomorrow for public, today are only for those in the trade. I imagine nobody is going to see anything utility tomorrow

The original notes issued by them claim the game was to be revealed on the EVE of the tradeshow
" The unveiling will take place September 26th at the Venetian Las Vegas hotel on the eve of G2E, The Global Gaming Expo"

Company's use hotel rooms and meeting rooms all the time for 'whisper suites' or other private meeting spaces off the convention floor when a big show is in town. Cheaper than the convention floor and in an environment you can control easier.

#19728 3 years ago
Quoted from 27dnast:

I'm starting to get a bad feeling that this "American Pinball" is manufacturing its games in china.... those empty cabinets in the photo are going to be loaded with playfields printed and populated in China.

The Armitron company is an electronics contracting company. They would make PCBs, assemblies, wiring, etc.. much like many small contract firms around this country. Much like most of the assemblies you need in pins. This company also has outfits overseas.. as well.. but having your boards printed overseas.. maybe populated.. and then assembled into full size games in America is probably what you'd see... if not all sub-assembly done here.

Things like playfields would be an interesting angle to see where they are being made simply because its such an expensive process and takes refinement to master.

This arrangement is not that much different than what Dutch Pinball has done (not trying to equate the individual efforts.. but simply in partnering with an electronics firm in both design and manufacturing)

#19950 3 years ago
Quoted from Razorbak86:

Zidware, Inc was never dissolved. It is simply an insolvent company, and it is still subject to federal and state insolvency laws. Zidware's creditors still have first claim on Zidware's assets, and what you are describing could be construed as a fraudulent conveyance in federal or state court.

It's listed as dissolved in the states Corp search as of August.

Agree with you on the rest regarding conveyance but what I don't know is how things are scrutinized if there is no active collections, liens, or bankruptcy going on.

#19955 3 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Just means Zidware Inc is no longer licensed to conduct business in the State of Illinois
Since the new entity is AP they wouldn't use that toxic waste dump Zidware

business license != legal corporate entity . Completely different areas here... and most notably when it comes to the topic of liabilities and avenues to persue.

Am I the only one who remembers when iceman used to run around telling everyone he was a lawyer??

#19959 3 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

The corporate entity gives them a license to do business in that state. Get it?

No, it doesn't. The legal corporate entity, its definition, and it's operating status means very different things (and much more far reaching) than simply being able to operate as a business in the state of illinois.

The fact they are dissolved means far more than 'operate as a business'... as someone who claims to be a lawyer and cpa... I would think this would be childs play to you.

#19961 3 years ago