I guess now is a good time to mention in my contract it says if I bring the game to a show or expo my warranty is void.

Warranty is pretty explicit it is home use only. can't be routed either (will void warranty).

You have got to be kidding us. That is in the contract? What the?!?!

I realize your comment is deliberately obtuse, but since you need people to spoon feed you information - if you spend 12+ hours a day at work you aren't spending money on personal costs of cable, cuts down electric, you're not going out to eat, going to bars or movies with friends/family, spending money on furniture, your house, travel or whatever.

The simple fact that he is always at the office cuts his personal expenses close to zero, not just bringing a bag lunch. Therefore he has no need for the 100k + that Tiger (and I guess obviously you?) seem to think he's paying himself.

What if you host a birthday party?

What if you take it to your kid's friend's birthday party?

What if you take it to a buddy's place for a weekend party?

What if you leave it at your office for fellow employees to enjoy for a few weeks?

What if you put your house up for sale and all the prospective buyers play it?

What if it never left its spot in your basement but you participate in and host a few leagues and it got played 1000 time a month?

What if Jpop spent half as much time working on games as he did legal nonsense....

What the everloving f**k???

Okay, that's just lame. Lame, lame, lame. I seriously just lost more respect for Jpop reading that.

$17k games, in ridiculously limited quantities, that you're not allowed to share with people? If it wasn't for the fact that I want all of you to see the light at the end of the tunnel on this I'd actually be rooting for this project to fail.

That's not pinball. That's just wanking. Not that I should be all that surprised, since that appears to be the theme for this whole debacle.

Anyways, I really do hope you all get your games and they're rad. It's not that I'm personally jealous or anything. Just feels like the opposite of how pinball should feel to me.

I just pulled up my contract to look at it again. It is very specific, capitalized HOME USE ONLY and anything else will void the warranty.

It's addressed in 2 sections actually, under "Usage & Operation" it states it can't be used for tournaments either, or "public display or play".

The machine itself is made to coin-up specs (coin door, operators menu, etc), but that little nugget is sitting in the contract clear as day.

The warranty is only for one year and voiding the warranty just means that you would have pay for replacement parts. He never said he was designing games to be used on route. I have a feeling that you would be able to get a waiver to take it to a show or two since it would be good advertising for him. If you don't care about the warranty or can wait a year, it doesn't have any impact.

Is this the same contract that included the NDA?

I'm not a Magic Girl owner, but if I were one, I would personally would put JPOP to the test if the situation arose. I'd see just how much stomach he has for a fight over a problem that would normally be covered by a warranty, but is now voided because I chose to take it to the Texas Pinball Festival or the Houston Arcade Expo.

What an incredibly asinine and short sighted clause to put into a purchase agreement for a pinball machine.

My 0.02

Marcus

The whole contract is worthless anyways since it is in breach on several fronts, but it would be a burn to bring the game to a show and something breaks and then be told the warranty is void.

It's in the owner's package that also had the NDA.

I am president and host my local pinball league, so I'd be voiding the warranty if I let the league play my game, in my home, apparently.

Except for the * that says

* do not actually attempt to play this game. Or touch it. Or let anyone see it.

Man, what a joke. The theme for his first game should have been clowns.

I can see it now...

Zidware Patent #XXXXXXXX: Internet-enabled tilt bob!

Worried about your nasty old customers abusing their games and filing bogus warranty claims as a result? This new feature guarantees gentle play! Each tilt warning is transmitted directly to Zidware HQ in Chicago, IL, where Mr. John A. Popadiuk Jr. himself (or his dog) will note and record the violation. After any second warning, Zidware will send a sternly-worded letter to the owner demanding that they Settle Down Right Now and Stop Abusing the Game. Actual tilts will result in the game being locked-down and play disabled for one week. Slam tilts are grounds for repossession.

Players who disagree with this policy can file a Memorandum of Complaint directly with their local department of circular filing devices.

jpop-soup-nazi.jpg

Lots of companies have specific products for consumer, and then commercial (which is used and abused much more and has a shorter warranty period). However, I've never seen ANY pinball company specifically build 2 versions, EVERY pinball is commercial. If he's putting that in his terms of service, he's basically saying he's incapable of building a commercial pinball (or there's some legal ramification with certifying them for commercial use). Is there anything in the contract about MG and RAZA getting UL or even CE certified?
Boutique or not, from a warranty standpoint, you're buying a HOME pinball for $17k.
sternpin2[1].jpg

I think I must be in an awful mood, but I am wondering how much time he spent re-engineering the coin door for this "home" pinball

I am hoping the answer is "none", but after hearing about how everything else has been built from the ground up I have to wonder...

Probably as much time as he spent re-engineering the backbox hinges for the game you're not allowed to fold down and take places.

Do the prototype games in the videos have cut outs for coin mechs?

Edit - they do

Sheezus guys let it go! From my point of view (a guy with money in JPOPs hands) I don't really give a F#ck about a warranty clause saying I can't put my game on route... I JUST WANT MY F-ing GAME!
Let's not make the next 20 pages of this thread about this, if you put your magic girl on route and it breaks just say it broke at your house and get your replacement parts.

Do you think guys that Python's Pinball Circus will gets out before a JPop game?

I hear you. But the flip side of just lol outrage (because it's so funny you have to laugh to not cry) is the real fact that you're buying a game from someone who's re-engineering everything from scratch. So it's not like you can just hit up Terry for parts. And if you were to say bring your game to a show to share with everyone it wouldn't be a secret, whole forum would be buzzing about it. What happens if John says "you broke the rules, not giving you parts"? You're hosed.

If Jpop is really running a charity pinball company he'll get you the parts.

1) I am from Houston, the land of large people. We need absolutely zero help in getting a spoon into our own mouths.
2) You and I plainly have different ideas about how much living cost you can save by spending all your time working and bringing sack lunches. As a generally frugal person myself, who often times works 12 hours a day 6-7 days a week, I am highly skeptical of your 1/4th living expenses estimate.
3) I, like John, have a family at home. Just because I spend all day at the office doesn't mean that they are at home living in a cave-like squalor. The cost of providing for a family is fairly fixed unless the circumstances require me to leave them wanting. Having 1 less person in the house for an extra 4 hours per day doesn't greatly impact the electric/food/cable/internet/gas/medical Bills. His living expenses are probably much closer to "Livable wage for a family of X" than "Close to zero" as you insist.
4) I haven't really said anything about what John is paying himself. I really don't care. I do creative work and I think creative people should be paid what they are worth. But time isn't free, and the burn has been going for 4 years now. If all expenses to date are kept within his estimated profit margin, and that profit margin is still solid when he goes into production, then great. 4 Years on, with 3 projects being sold and nothing shipped, I have my doubts, but who knows! Plenty of people here think the entire operation is doomed unless he can sell a whole bunch more $16K pins, so I am not alone. Perhaps we could all use some more of your helpful information spoonfeeding? I can tell by your tone that you think you are super good at it.

You are right on. I don't see how adding to the queue of games fixes any financial cash flow
I don't get the Ponzi scheme mentality that have been tossed around on several of the boutiques. The logic of "selling just 100 more preorders" would bridge any cash flow gap is amazing. The profit on these isn't as huge as you might think, and selling more product, that doesn't cover the fixed cost of the parts and shop/factory?, is producing a faster road to being broke.

If he has a good showing with a functional prototype at MGC, and if the game is as awesome as people who have visited his shop are reporting, I don't doubt that there would be interest in at least a few more slots. I think characterizing adding orders as being a "ponzi scheme" is just a bit dramatic. A BOM for a non-innovative old-school pin shouldn't exceed 4k, plus it sounds like Popadiuk has been modernizing the design, and might not need as much labor to build one.

Regarding Nemo: somewhat inaccurate, let me explain:

The initial limit was fixed at 30. Antonio kept "preorders" for Nemo (with no money required!) open for a year. Never reached 30. Around 20 I think.

At one time he had to order parts and asked people who were in for a deposit. 14 stayed in. So he placed orders to manufacture that number (hopefully with some spare parts if necessary).

Now the machine can be consired as "sold out" because he would not make more.
Once the 14 are produced, if people like the game, he would still be allowed to make 16 other games and keep his word. I doubt he wants to make them but if the feedback is good, try petition him to make these extra games... but let him finish the 14 first!

Note that there is still a waiting list according to http://www.quetzalpinball.com/menu/order
I know that at least a few of the 14 have not paid in full - so there is still a possibility that a few would drop out.

By the way, this limit of a few dozen is probably the upper figure you can assemble without a factory. So announcing a low run makes sense. He is building these pins in his home. Mine is expected hopefully soon !

Antonio next game will involve partnership with a game manufacturer. A higher run becomes realistic.
In any case, as you can guess with Nemo priced at €4,400 (without sales tax) Antonio is not making a living out of it. He told me he lost $$, without including any salary for himself and the workers (his wife!). He (they) keeps his regular job and builds games when he finds the time.

The ultimate boutique pin!

For better or worse, like a marriage, I knew what I signed for 32 months ago, and I am still in!

_{Post edited by jlm33: grammar/clarity}

For some $16k was reasonable for an exclusive 1-of-13 (or 16 or 25 or whatever) custom made-for-me-by-a-famed-designer at the top of the pinball bubble. At this point there is no reason to assume $16k is the right market price to sell 50-100, but selling many hundreds of them would result in manufacturing cost reductions, a price reduction, and better chance at actual profits for Jpop. It's probably why Jpop wants to jump to RAZA and AIW at this point, though it is still under the manufacturing efficiency threshold.

I think I read somewhere on the forum that he wants to keep Zombie Yeti doing art with him, and if the cabinet and pf art are done on MG and RAZA, it would make sense to get started on cabinet and pf art on AIW. Kind of a pipeline process, I suppose.

I'm only guessing but maybe he has the home use only phrase in the contract so he doesn't have to get UL approval and other approvals.

IANAL, but I doubt that the distinction makes much difference -- if a device injures someone you could still be sued no matter what.

More likely, the lawyer added that as a protection for the case when someone throws the pin to the wolves on route, and then expects a warranty fix for a beer spill on the machine, kicked in cabinet, etc.

The whole contract is one-sided legal mumbo jumbo protecting zidware from basically everything they can think of.

I don't blame the lawyer from coming at it from that perspective, since that is what lawyers do, but it certainly doesn't look good when viewed through the lens of the pinball community.

One has to wonder why you need a contract to buy something anyways. I certainly never signed a contract limiting liability for my car, or any other purchase.

In hindsight the whole project is framed as a "if you're lucky enough to be a buyer and the privilege of sending me $10k+". The whole "owners package", marketing, etc... was always an exclusive club.

Hey, I was super excited to be part of that club, and was for a long time, till basically a year passed the deadline and the narrative changed.

I agree with the comment above that this all came about at the height of the pinball bubble, and now this kind of stuff won't go over as easily, not at these prices, and not if product can't get out the door.

No, no, there is contractual (non-liability) language in the manual for all cars.

When you buy a new car you are basically agreeing to all the legal mumbo jumbo in the manual.

When I bought my car I had to sign probably a dozen things. That's just the world (the country anyway) we live in.

Well, ok, we do live in a world now where we're asked to accept terms on every little thing.... so there's that.

It's neither here nor there though, I don't really care, I signed the contract (same one that said Q4 2013 delivery) and sent my money so I'd like my game, that's really all we're at with this.

This sums it up for me as well as others I'm sure.

People have only a limited amount of money/space and time life is short.

This project is holding a spot (space) not a problem for some, as you can have a temporary game in the space but not ideal to keep a spot open for years on end.

Money is obvious as these are not cheap by any means, at the time many years ago, the priced were rising such as for BIB LE or Tron LE, MM and other games prices were higher than they are currently so a good deal back in 2012 may not be as good a deal in 2015.

Time, this is a major factor which was not adequately addressed, John made vague notions of the timeframe, the impression (for RAZA) was in the 14+ month timeframe. Now it looks more like 48+ months (I'm being optimistic if John can complete the RAZA delivey of games in the next 14 months that would put us at 48 months). If he's taking much more time than that were pushing 4.5-5 years which is significant time difference that we were led to believe.

In that time, people can have life changes such as getting married, divorced, having children, having children starting college, lost jobs (etc..). Some people are fine with giving the money and forgetting about it, but may not be the case for 150 individuals. John needs to accommodate change in life circumstances in relation to he's own change in timeline or lack of timeline. John has not made it easy or even possible to resell these spots (except at egregious loss of money, since he won't show the public anythig and the timeline is the same 14 months as it was from the start).

Also John needs to stop acting the part of the martyr, he's brought this on himself, we are not to blame for his problems or his under appreciation of the difficulties involved.

Aint that the truth!

It's completely reasonable to keep the pipeline full and perhaps this is one reason why the games are in a perpetual delay cycle as Jpop is trying to get artwork done for as many future projects as he can think of while he has the attention of Zombie Yeti.

The thing is, JPop's reveals seem to be exclusive to Zombie Yeti's artwork rather than the rest of the game(s), a classic case of smoke and mirrors. That doesn't mean there isn't a lot of real and tangible progress on the rest of the games, as JPop is certainly making an effort to keep his own work secret under both the NDA and lack of reveals, but the end result is a lot of uncomfortable customers.

+1000

John always tells me he's doing well, the games look great, well under way.

This is fine if the idea is a Stern type reveal. I mean tell the theme, maybe show a few pictures then the game is shipping intact.

What I had thought and what John said from the beginning was the owners would get behind the curtain view of the games in progress and frequent updates and inputs.

I've not seen anything like that, even the Adobe video is vague at best. Great artwork, but I've yet to see a ball roll on a playfield a flipper flip a shot up a ramp or around a loop.

He's saving somethig for a big reveal but was that what he was selling us 3-4 years ago?

Zombie Yeti does great work, I dig his stuff, and I think it was a great call to use him. But he's a freelance illustrator. It's not like there's some magic window where if he doesn't use him he'll never be able to get him again.

Now if you have a full team working full time it totally makes sense to keep the pipeline full. Your designer and engineer can do X while someone else is doing Y. Certainly how Stern works. But everyone I've talked to says that John doesn't actually let anyone help him. He does it all.

So every bit on AIW is taking him away from MG and RAZA. Let alone "bowling cat girls" or whatever else he's cooking up. Sure, there's gonna be some downtime while you wait for a part to be ordered or glue to dry or whatever. Just a suggestion, maybe use that time to take some photos and update the blog for all the people throwing thousands of dollars at you to make it happen?

New playfield photo...

https://www.facebook.com/208420082535873/photos/a.211017292276152.57948.208420082535873/907887325922475/?type=1

Top half of MG playfield...

JPtophalfofMG.jpg

4 years later and the PF artwork isn't done?

looks Great!!!!!!!!!!

Looks like a mirror to be in the right top corner maybe, as with TOM!

Intellectually bankrupt statement, it's obviously complete by now.

Last time that I talked with him he said there will not be coin operation code in these games.
I really doubt anyone would route one of these hahaha.

Why is he showing it like it's something new then? Didn't make sense to me. A picture of the PF should be old news by now.

SUUUUper lame

Uhhhh... I can't believe this is even on the table? These are literal toys without the coin-op.

Super lame? That about sums up the 70 pages of worthless whining in this thread from people who have no skin in the game. Has anyone who has complained about JPop in this thread done more for pinball than he has? If not I urge you to go out and do better. Armchair quarterbacks are a dime a dozen.
Yes, the project is taking longer than anticipated but so what. Truly great things are worth the wait. This is just Big Bang Bar part 2, no risk, no reward. I'm anxious to see Magic Girl get finished but at this point it doesn't really matter if it takes another six weeks or six months. I say it will be worth the wait.

Yeah, Stern actually gets games out.

*drums and cymbals going nuts, crowd cheering and Jay Leno saying "ok" and "I keed, I keed...!" 10 times before the next joke*

Disclaimer: I have no skin in this game.

Guess what? I can still post in this thread.

My take on this? I applaud those folks who took a risk and invested with Jpop. You have to REALLY support the pinball hobby to make such an investment. The pinball revival we are seeing now was paved by folks like these.

With that said, my personal opinion (based on what I've read here) is that Jpop vastly underestimated what it would take to complete this project. I think a few MG's may see the light of day, but beyond that, it's anyone's guess.

I honestly hope all owners get their games. I see this going one of two ways. If owners get their games, everyone wins and pinball sees another positive bump. If not, the pre-order model has been irrecoverably stained.