(Topic ID: 92436)

John Popadiuk update thread……MAGIC GIRL, RAZA, AIW…..

By iceman44

7 years ago


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#3301 6 years ago
Quoted from jazzmaster:

I am not an expert on UL listing but, from what I understand, it may be difficult for JPOP to carry liability insurance if his product does not have it. Which I would believe he would want just to protect himself from a claim if one of his machines were proven to be the cause of a fire or worse.

There's a lot of hidden issues as he goes into production mode... If anyone thinks there won't be more delays once he shows a working game in the next month they are foolish...

#3302 6 years ago

But with that said a working playing game is still progress

12
#3303 6 years ago
Quoted from rai:

Almost a year ago Skit-B said Predator was complete, and not one single person has claimed to have received one yet

You know, I was talking to Terry from pinball life (who's really business smart). It's sort of amazing how many people think they can start a pinball company. Building A (single) pinball machine isn't the hardest thing in the world (but still hard).
Building a volume production pinball (with cost effective volume parts), without errors (because that costs you money), and sourcing vendors, and figuring out the space, and tools to build efficiently, and figuring out how you're going to fund buying all the parts once you're happy with the prototype is a whole different ball game. You make mistakes on one, no problem. You make a mistake after ordering a hundred+ parts, unless you have a way to rework those parts (which is costing you time) you're eating that cost too. I'm only speculating here, but maybe some of the delay isn't artwork. Maybe JPOP is trying to design innovative mechanisms, but after running them on test realizes they aren't going to hold up, or there's no way to effectively mass produce them.
Think about how many complaints Stern gets for minor things, and they're experts at what they do because they've been at it for 25 years. New mechanisms go through hundreds of thousands of hours to get data on reliability. Now imagine a brand new startup. Heck, Spooky is lucky the only major error he made was not installing a post next to the scoop (which is easily remedied, and was caught early in production).

#3304 6 years ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

You know, I was talking to Terry from pinball life (who's really business smart). It's sort of amazing how many people think they can start a pinball company. Building A (single) pinball machine isn't the hardest thing in the world (but still hard).
Building a volume production pinball (with cost effective volume parts), without errors (because that costs you money), and sourcing vendors, and figuring out the space, and tools to build efficiently, and figuring out how you're going to fund buying all the parts once you're happy with the prototype is a whole different ball game. You make mistakes on one, no problem. You make a mistake after ordering a hundred+ parts, unless you have a way to rework those parts (which is costing you time) you're eating that cost too. I'm only speculating here, but maybe some of the delay isn't artwork. Maybe JPOP is trying to design innovative mechanisms, but after running them on test realizes they aren't going to hold up, or there's no way to effectively mass produce them.
Think about how many complaints Stern gets for minor things, and they're experts at what they do because they've been at it for 25 years. New mechanisms go through hundreds of thousands of hours to get data on reliability. Now imagine a brand new startup. Heck, Spooky is lucky the only major error he made was not installing a post next to the scoop (which is easily remedied, and was caught early in production).

Good point, great post.

I believe this is why I hung back from WoZ, not the only reason, but a big reason. But the early guys in were getting a big discount to be in early or take the risk. They were getting around $1000 discount maybe more depending on how you value the green trim.

But I was worried about delays or unknown problems like the light board issue it did end up having.

Similarly, with MMR there was also some or a lot of unknown possible issues, but the early adopters were not give much incentive to buy especially when the LE had it's legs cut out from under it when it was announced there would be a regular edition with the exact same everything (except trim and shaker). So the question becomes, why do I need to wait 18 months with my dick in my hand when I can just as well wait and see how they actually turn out.

It's not like MMR is exactly cheap or much discount like WoZ was. Now if MMR was pre-order for $6500 maybe that would have been an insentive (like WoZ).

#3305 6 years ago

I am surprised that people are assuming that John showing a prototype will lead to production timetables. He has not shown any willingness to call anything the final version which leads me to believe that whatever is revealed will be revised prior to the beginning of production.

#3306 6 years ago

This is the problem. Since John won't lay out a road map/timetable.... once there are 3 prototypes, now what? We have no idea.

What has to happen from the day the prototypes are done, to the day production starts?

Once production starts, what kind of schedule is there to get them produced?

Everything starts with Magic Girl.... making those 20 shouldn't be too hard, but if that takes forever, then where does that leave us RAZA buyers?

I'm talking into the wind of course, these questions will not be answered and won't be part of the big "reveal".

#3307 6 years ago

The "oh shit the natives are restless, need to show them something" is a big red flag. Do enough to quiet the murmurs. Having people beg him to do the right thing is another red flag. He can't or won't see the ship is sinking. So he trots out a "working" proto; so what? He needs to demonstrate he has the ability in manpower and financial power to carry it to production. These misdirections and diversionary practices are insulting. He's worried about his rep and legacy? lmao. F that. Boohoo, poor john. Poor misunderstood genius. No one understands how hard he's trying. Cry me a river. He's messing with people's money. Screw your secret society bullshit. You care about your customers? Then come clean NOW. Not at your pace through your filter. Lay it all on the line. What a load of crap.

#3308 6 years ago

WOOLY was going to use Spooky to build machines. I wouldn't be shocked to see JPOP approach Charlie as well. The margin to sub out manufacturing sure as heck is there, or at least it was (might still be, who knows). The production numbers are right in the Spooky comfort zone/wheelhouse as well. If Charlie only has to put machines together and leave the parts ordering to JPOP, it just seems like the way to do things.

I make and sell a ~$75 item for a different hobby and can attest to the issues that come from scaling from a prototype you wanted for yourself to a product that many people want after seeing what you have come up with. It's not that there was anything wrong with the design, but you work differently when it's a project for fun compared to an item that people are excited to get their hands on. I've shipped a few, but am a lot further behind than I want to be. I'm just glad I don't have any money from anyone else, I collect that when I'm ready to ship. Having money changes things quite a bit, especially at the MG/RAZA level.

#3309 6 years ago

Yeah, the timing of this guy coming in and saying "just wait a bit more" is suspicious... it seems to have fired people up into thinking there's actually a flipping machine with production-level parts. People are talking like that's a given.

The only given at this point is Popaduik has had your money for four years and he's got some foam core and/or glued plastic ramp versions of Magic Girl. That's it. Software? Who knows. Everything else is speculation until he actually shows anything.

#3310 6 years ago
Quoted from jwilson:

Yeah, the timing of this guy coming in and saying "just wait a bit more" is suspicious... it seems to have fired people up into thinking there's actually a flipping machine with production-level parts. People are talking like that's a given.
The only given at this point is Popaduik has had your money for four years and he's got some foam core and/or glued plastic ramp versions of Magic Girl. That's it. Software? Who knows. Everything else is speculation until he actually shows anything.

Well actually I know for a fact he has more than a foam core MG.

#3311 6 years ago

We saw the state of MG in the adobe video, we can put the foam core to rest.

13
#3312 6 years ago
Quoted from desertT1:

WOOLY was going to use Spooky to build machines. I wouldn't be shocked to see JPOP approach Charlie as well. The margin to sub out manufacturing sure as heck is there, or at least it was (might still be, who knows). The production numbers are right in the Spooky comfort zone/wheelhouse as well. If Charlie only has to put machines together and leave the parts ordering to JPOP, it just seems like the way to do things.

That's a nice thought but if I was Spooky and JPOP approached me to build his machines I would say no.

I have been building custom homes for 20 years and I have often said "no" to building homes for potential customers who I sensed were "crazy". In my experince, if you happen to take on one of these "crazy" customers you get wrapped up in projects that take too long, cost you money and make your life miserable because the client is constantly changing things, is disorganized and is just generally a flake.

I think JPOP fits this description and based on my 20 years of experience, I would say "no" to taking on JPOP as a client.

Now WOOLY,........ that's a different story. I'd be happy to build for WOOLY, he has his shit together and I would definitely build for him.

QSS

#3313 6 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

The "oh shit the natives are restless, need to show them something" is a big red flag. Do enough to quiet the murmurs. Having people beg him to do the right thing is another red flag. He can't or won't see the ship is sinking. So he trots out a "working" proto; so what? He needs to demonstrate he has the ability in manpower and financial power to carry it to production.

This is exactly correct... what is being asked by owners is 1. a timeline, 2. pictures. Jumping to #2 is not going to give any guidance to #1, which is what everyone wants. Lack of timeline = lack of business plan.

#3314 6 years ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

You know, I was talking to Terry from pinball life (who's really business smart). It's sort of amazing how many people think they can start a pinball company. Building A (single) pinball machine isn't the hardest thing in the world (but still hard).
Building a volume production pinball (with cost effective volume parts), without errors (because that costs you money), and sourcing vendors, and figuring out the space, and tools to build efficiently, and figuring out how you're going to fund buying all the parts once you're happy with the prototype is a whole different ball game. You make mistakes on one, no problem. You make a mistake after ordering a hundred+ parts, unless you have a way to rework those parts (which is costing you time) you're eating that cost too. I'm only speculating here, but maybe some of the delay isn't artwork. Maybe JPOP is trying to design innovative mechanisms, but after running them on test realizes they aren't going to hold up, or there's no way to effectively mass produce them.
Think about how many complaints Stern gets for minor things, and they're experts at what they do because they've been at it for 25 years. New mechanisms go through hundreds of thousands of hours to get data on reliability. Now imagine a brand new startup. Heck, Spooky is lucky the only major error he made was not installing a post next to the scoop (which is easily remedied, and was caught early in production).

Really well said. The issue goes back to the information blackout. If JPOP found some issues, showed a couple pics and said "This is the first game with my name on it 100%, and I want it perfect!" people might not be super happy about the wait, but would understand.

The real fear I'm reading here is that people thinking they have been fleeced. The "working 24/7" thing is lame. If his endeavor is legit, it'd be nothing to take 2 hours once per month and show some progress pics and a little text update.

#3315 6 years ago
Quoted from TOK:

If JPOP found some issues, showed a couple pics and said "This is the first game with my name on it 100%, and I want it perfect!" people might not be super happy about the wait, but would understand.

I don't think he realizes that bad information is better than no information. Some people have too much pride to show their mistakes, which is the wrong way to go about things. Making mistakes is a part of learning, nobody is going to judge you for that so long as you have solutions. Not learning from your mistakes will get you judged quickly and lose their trust. Look how well it worked out for GM hiding all those issues for so many years, and now they're having to earn their customer's trust back.

If you haven't seen it, this is a REALLY great talk from adam savage of mythbusters about failure

#3316 6 years ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

I don't think he realizes that bad information is better than no information. Some people have too much pride to show their mistakes, which is the wrong way to go about things. Making mistakes is a part of learning, nobody is going to judge you for that so long as you have solutions. Not learning from your mistakes will get you judged quickly and lose their trust. Look how well it worked out for GM hiding all those issues for so many years, and now they're having to earn their customer's trust back.
If you haven't seen it, this is a REALLY great talk from adam savage of mythbusters about failure
» YouTube video

This is EXACTLY what I tried to convey to him the other day. Not sure if it worked though.

Chris

#3317 6 years ago
Quoted from SilverUnicorn:

This is EXACTLY what I tried to convey to him the other day. Not sure if it worked though.
Chris

What does he say when you talk with him? Is it just the usual I work 24 hours per day? Does he comprehend at all that he has taken 120 of his most loyal supporters and made many of them feel like suckers? I assume that his hope is that the eventual fantastic reveal will make everything better.

#3318 6 years ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

New mechanisms go through hundreds of thousands of hours to get data on reliability.

Are you nuts? Have you ever seen the Transformers lock, or the Hulk toy, or....

I mean, let's be for real here.. assume that "hundreds of thousands" is the bare minimum to meet your qualification 200,000 hours. At one mech in test that is 22 years. With 25 mechs in test that is still the better part of a year. You seriously think that Stern is testing ANY mech 25 at a time for the better part of a year, straight?

Might want to at least try to be semi-realistic with your hyperbole, instead of totally ludicrous.

#3319 6 years ago
Quoted from Frax:

Are you nuts? Have you ever seen the Transformers lock, or the Hulk toy, or....
I mean, let's be for real here.. assume that "hundreds of thousands" is the bare minimum to meet your qualification 200,000 hours. At one mech in test that is 22 years. With 25 mechs in test that is still the better part of a year. You seriously think that Stern is testing ANY mech 25 at a time for the better part of a year, straight?
Might want to at least try to be semi-realistic with your hyperbole, instead of totally ludicrous.

I might believe thousands of repetitions - like the video they showed of the TWD crossbow mech repeatedly firing up a ramp and reloading - but not thousands of HOURS.

#3320 6 years ago
Quoted from epthegeek:

but not thousands of HOURS.

unless you are talking about artist hours.

#3321 6 years ago
Quoted from Frax:

I mean, let's be for real here.. assume that "hundreds of thousands" is the bare minimum to meet your qualification 200,000 hours. At one mech in test that is 22 years. With 25 mechs in test that is still the better part of a year. You seriously think that Stern is testing ANY mech 25 at a time for the better part of a year, straight?

Might want to at least try to be semi-realistic with your hyperbole, instead of totally ludicrous

I meant to type hundreds (if not) thousands, I can see the craziness of my statement

#3322 6 years ago

Terra-Poop-For-Free-Wi-Fi.jpg bump

#3323 6 years ago

Testing at Stern is measured in cycles not hours, but a real test would be to place a test machine at Modern Pinball NYC!!!!

#3324 6 years ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

Frax:meant to type hundreds (if not) thousands, I can see the craziness of my statement

Okay, cool. I rescind my thumbs down.

#3325 6 years ago

Has anyone who has requested a refund had any communication with John beyond the letter he sends you to sign?

#3326 6 years ago
Quoted from boo32:

Has anyone who has requested a refund had any communication with John beyond the letter he sends you to sign?

more importantly has anyone actually signed the letter and sent back all the stuff? and received a refund? i doubt anyone would fess up if they did receive one

#3327 6 years ago
Quoted from boo32:

What does he say when you talk with him? Is it just the usual I work 24 hours per day? Does he comprehend at all that he has taken 120 of his most loyal supporters and made many of them feel like suckers? I assume that his hope is that the eventual fantastic reveal will make everything better.

We discussed a bit about "how" he should reveal info. He seemed to think it should be like the Adobe videos. I said that they (the buyers) just wanted information. No need to make a big production, but rather keep those in on the project just that: IN on the project. No reason to take the time to do an elaborate video. Show them on a weekly basis what happened this past week. I also tried to convey the extreme importance of communication to him.

Not sure what, if any effect it had, but I can hope.

Chris

#3328 6 years ago
Quoted from SilverUnicorn:

We discussed a bit about "how" he should reveal info. He seemed to think it should be like the Adobe videos. I said that they (the buyers) just wanted information. No need to make a big production, but rather keep those in on the project just that: IN on the project. No reason to take the time to do an elaborate video. Show them on a weekly basis what happened this past week. I also tried to convey the extreme importance of communication to him.
Not sure what, if any effect it had, but I can hope.
Chris

The fact that people have to try and talk him into doing these sort of things says all I need to know and wished I had known prior to sending my money to the asshole.

#3329 6 years ago
Quoted from QuickSilverShelby:

That's a nice thought but if I was Spooky and JPOP approached me to build his machines I would say no.
I have been building custom homes for 20 years and I have often said "no" to building homes for potential customers who I sensed were "crazy". In my experince, if you happen to take on one of these "crazy" customers you get wrapped up in projects that take too long, cost you money and make your life miserable because the client is constantly changing things, is disorganized and is just generally a flake.
I think JPOP fits this description and based on my 20 years of experience, I would say "no" to taking on JPOP as a client.
Now WOOLY,........ that's a different story. I'd be happy to build for WOOLY, he has his shit together and I would definitely build for him.
QSS

That's probably exactly right. Spooky has an established process with a product that is getting very little if any physical tweaking at this point. They also have a healthy backlog. They are not in a position of needing to take every job that comes thier way. The Riot crew on the other hand, has their ish together and would likely be a great customer to have.

#3330 6 years ago
Quoted from SilverUnicorn:

Show them on a weekly basis what happened this past week.

I think this would make a lot of people's blood boil a bit. "This week I've been experimenting with cutting a hole in the side of the cabinet so people can look inside. It'll be like one of those cows at the state fair, but with lights, and less chewed grass."

#3331 6 years ago

Hey Iceman, Is there any way you can get me in touch with JPop? I have cash in hand to pay for a AIW as I sold my POTC and got my refund for The Hobbit so I have cash burning a hole in my pocket but I want to speak with the man and some sort of time frame. Since you are buying Magic Girl I thought you might have a way to reach him.

#3332 6 years ago
Quoted from epthegeek:

I think this would make a lot of people's blood boil a bit. "This week I've been experimenting with cutting a hole in the side of the cabinet so people can look inside. It'll be like one of those cows at the state fair, but with lights, and less chewed grass."

Hadn't thought of that side of it. Was just tossing stuff out there so that the people in might be able to get SOMETHING. I got the impression that he thought what was up on his blog was pretty good, but I also said that some owners said they learned more from the Adobe videos than they had from the blog, which is what started the whole "video" discussion.

Chris

24
#3333 6 years ago
Quoted from zr11990:

I have cash in hand to pay for a AIW

Don't do that.

#3334 6 years ago

The odd thing to me is that he can't figure out how to communicate to us when we have a "secure" website that is protected by an NDA. Post to the website! Address the concerns of your customers.
The idea of an Adobe video makes me think he is so stuck on his grandiosity that he doesn't actually want to communicate with those who would stifle his creativity with silly things like deadlines and production schedules.

Three and four years ago, he had enough goodwill that a website and an idea were enough to convince pinheads to send him hundreds of thousands of dollars in a matter of days. The idea that he now doesn't know how to talk to us, or more likely doesn't want to communicate with us, shows how little he appreciates the opportunity that we gave him. John's lack of communication is likely ruining whatever goodwill is remaining.

Obviously, I am a big fan of his games and what was proposed for RAZA because I sent him thousands of dollars based on his word. Luckily, I knew the money was a gamble and I will be fine if it is lost. It sure doesn't feel good being out in the cold hearing things second hand from people who seem to be able to communicate with him at length. I don't post much here and I don't like to dwell on the negative and I know it is just pinball, but the way John is handling this is incredibly disappointing and aggravating.

14
#3335 6 years ago
Quoted from zr11990:

Hey Iceman, Is there any way you can get me in touch with JPop? I have cash in hand to pay for a AIW as I sold my POTC and got my refund for The Hobbit so I have cash burning a hole in my pocket but I want to speak with the man and some sort of time frame. Since you are buying Magic Girl I thought you might have a way to reach him.

Cant-tell-if-serious-.jpg
#3336 6 years ago

The owner's blog was/is fine for posting updates of a backglass, whatever. John used to also answer customer's comments, but he has since stopped when the same 3 questions kept getting asked which he refuses or is unable to answer. Then those same 3 questions get asked again and again and it becomes a joke when months pass with no comment or response.

#3337 6 years ago
Quoted from SilverUnicorn:

We discussed a bit about "how" he should reveal info. He seemed to think it should be like the Adobe videos. I said that they (the buyers) just wanted information. No need to make a big production, but rather keep those in on the project just that: IN on the project. No reason to take the time to do an elaborate video. Show them on a weekly basis what happened this past week. I also tried to convey the extreme importance of communication to him.

Not sure what, if any effect it had, but I can hope.

I'm afraid of a video where:

-John talks about patents
-John shows artwork
-John talks about 3000 artist hours
-John talks about working 7 days a week for the last 4 years
-We don't see a playable game that does much
-We don't get told how much is left to do or when we might actually get our games.

#3338 6 years ago
Quoted from zr11990:

Hey Iceman, Is there any way you can get me in touch with JPop? I have cash in hand to pay for a AIW as I sold my POTC and got my refund for The Hobbit so I have cash burning a hole in my pocket but I want to speak with the man and some sort of time frame. Since you are buying Magic Girl I thought you might have a way to reach him.

Why don't I take u out back kick u in the nuts and u keep the money. That would be par for the course.. Does anyone read shit.. Can't believe this post

#3339 6 years ago

LOL, I didn't say I was going to pay for it up front. I might put up a deposit, maybe. I am most likely going to buy the PL pin from Jack but AIW is my fantasy theme and I would wait on it if I could see some proof that it will exist in the future. That is why I want to talk to the man. I cant get a email reply nor has he ever answered any of the numbers I can find or have been given.

I have read every one of these posts and again that is why I want to actually speak to the man.

#3340 6 years ago
Quoted from zr11990:

I cant get a email reply nor has he ever answered any of the numbers I can find or have been given.

And folks have been waiting 4 years. But talking to him will help.

Go for it. At least someone may get a refund that's waiting.

26
#3341 6 years ago
Quoted from zr11990:

I cant get a email reply nor has he ever answered any of the numbers I can find or have been given.

And that's not a giant red flag that maybe you shouldn't send him money?

#3342 6 years ago

great idea getting in now, you owe it to yourself zr! go balls deep and enjoy...

#3343 6 years ago
Quoted from zr11990:

I might put up a deposit, maybe. I am most likely going to buy the PL pin from Jack but AIW is my fantasy theme and I would wait on it if I could see some proof that it will exist in the future. That is why I want to talk to the man. I cant get a email reply nor has he ever answered any of the numbers I can find or have been given.
I have read every one of these posts and again that is why I want to actually speak to the man.

wow I'm speechle....wow

#3344 6 years ago

Whatever. All Im saying is if the guy could show me some progress that would convince me that the thing was going to happen I would be interested. I do want a AIW pin badly but Im not stupid enough to throw money away. Hell, Ice hasn't asked for a refund has he or have I missed something. He is way more savvy than me. That being said, I really want AIW to happen. I want another new pin badly.

#3345 6 years ago
Quoted from zr11990:

Whatever. All Im saying is if the guy could show me some progress that would convince me that the thing was going to happen I would be interested.

You might want to set the bar quite high on this point.....say a playable demo machine and shipped MGs AND RAZAs!

Edit: Whatever, I'm not convinced you are not trolling this thread, just too unbelievable. Out.

#3346 6 years ago

Well, I guess that answers the question regarding someone still getting in on this trainwreck..

#3347 6 years ago
Quoted from zr11990:

Whatever. All Im saying is if the guy could show me some progress that would convince me that the thing was going to happen I would be interested. I do want a AIW pin badly but Im not stupid enough to throw money away.

All other owners got a warm fuzzy up front but after years of waiting for promises to be delivered, they are still waiting for the information you want. If you figure out how to get it please share it all with existing MG, RAZA, and AIW owners, otherwise I'd find it hard to believe you are being serious.

18
#3348 6 years ago

Just pulled my Wells Fargo Bill Pay history to Zidware over the last 4 years...

It kinda felt like this

759.gif

#3349 6 years ago

Don't think I would give out any cash without seeing something very convincing. Ill sit on the cash and wait but that is about it. If the guy doesn't answer emails or a phone that tells me something. The only reason I continue to try and reach him is because AIW is a dream theme. To this day I still play American McGee's Alice from time to time. I love all the crazy, acid trippy shit.

#3350 6 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Will anybody, in their right ever loving mind give him another F ing dime for anything!

Quoted from Hwawonyu:

Probably! Wasn't there some banana head talking about his fourth game only a week or two ago.

Quoted from Roostking:

Well, I guess that answers the question regarding someone still getting in on this trainwreck..

Told you ; )

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