(Topic ID: 92436)

John Popadiuk update thread……MAGIC GIRL, RAZA, AIW…..


By iceman44

5 years ago



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#2801 5 years ago

JPOP build your own pinball kit. Comes with hot glue gun, sharp scissors and premium paper!

#2802 5 years ago
Quoted from Razorbak86:

I guarantee you that Gary Stern cares a hell of a lot more about keeping those assets fully utilized than he does about ONLY making licensed products, because he has to cover those high overhead costs before he has any hope of generating a profit. Quite simply, he has to "feed the beast" (maximize the asset utilization) to make any money. And if Gary can pick up some attractive IP assets from Ziddware in an asset sale (e.g., Section 363 sale), he will be all over that opportunity in a heartbeat.

Of course he does, especially the new facility they are moving into. Tell me what other "manufacturing" they have done outside of pinball to date?

Where have they derived all of their profits from over the last decade. Manufacturing what? Pinball machines.

Zidware isn't going bankrupt anytime soon so there won't be any "section 363 sale".

If anything, Jpop should do a joint venture with JJP, if they would ever have him, gotta be a way to make it work and may be the only hope to get these pins "manufactured".

#2803 5 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Of course he does, especially the new facility they are moving into. Tell me what other "manufacturing" they have done outside of pinball to date?
Where have they derived all of their profits from over the last decade. Manufacturing what? Pinball machines.
Zidware isn't going bankrupt anytime soon so there won't be any "section 363 sale".
If anything, Jpop should do a joint venture with JJP, if they would ever have him, gotta be a way to make it work and may be the only hope to get these pins "manufactured".

Jjp and jpop never happening. Jacks building his own brand

#2804 5 years ago
Quoted from lllvjr:

Jjp and jpop never happening. Jacks building his own brand

Isn't he building Skit B's next game?

#2805 5 years ago
Quoted from lllvjr:

Jjp and jpop never happening. Jacks building his own brand

He's building Skit B's next game (if it ever happens) and he needs another designer after Balcer one would think unless he's going to count on Lawlor to do every pin.

Or maybe somebody else is already in the hopper as designer. Maybe Nordman is coming back again after Heighway.

#2806 5 years ago

New posts on the blog, nice look at the current backglass in place with the backbox speaker placement. I like the look and really like the integrated speakers.

#2807 5 years ago
Quoted from thedarkknight77:

Understood. I was more responding to PDX who is clearly a cheerleader. It is very possible that JPOP would need to lower his price to get more buyers on board, which would require that he lower the price for everyone. How much of the $16,000 have buyers put down???? What a disaster.......

I'm not sorry about being excited for new evolationary pinball manufacturers, I thought A pinball forum of all place that would be acceptable...

Personally I don't feel my money's was poorly invested in Jpop, despite your expert posts in this thread. I can say this has been a bumpy ride but the plane is still in the sky.
I happily gave Spooky, dutch pinball and stern money this year...I have my arm chair critics of each company, Jpop included.
This project isn't for everyone hence the low production numbers...
I will say this my life was less stressful when this thread was drained.

#2808 5 years ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

New posts on the blog, nice look at the current backglass in place with the backbox speaker placement. I like the look and really like the integrated speakers.

Looks great, worse case maybe we at least get a gorgeous backbox, play field and cab as artwork and we can roll pinballs around on the table ourselves or maybe, if we are really lucky, we can get the flipper mechs installed with it.

Seriously though, I'm with PDX, the plane is still in the sky, just not sure how much gas is left in the tank.

#2809 5 years ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

This project isn't for everyone...

That comment was in one of the first interchanges I had with Jpop. I think that I have more and more come to understand what he was saying.

#2810 5 years ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

I will say this my life was less stressful when this thread was drained.

Hang in there PDX your positive outlook and insider perspective (several trips to Johns shop) help me to keep faith in this project.

#2811 5 years ago
Quoted from GLModular:

It's not a revelation, it's a reminder.

Don't need a reminder, we've lived it going on almost 4 years. Thanks anyhow.

#2812 5 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Of course he does, especially the new facility they are moving into. Tell me what other "manufacturing" they have done outside of pinball to date?
Where have they derived all of their profits from over the last decade. Manufacturing what? Pinball machines.

they've done redemption too.

But your focusing on the print and missing the message. The company makes money by building product - not by designing stuff. The worlds greatest pinball doesn't mean jack if it's not generating orders for units. If they could get away with designing 1 game instead of 3 it would suit them fine... because designing more games is about generating factory demand... not a game portfolio. The money generator is the factory. So if they can produce things for other people that fit within how they want to operate... they would be open to it. And that's what they've been demonstrating with these new contracted manufacturing agreements.

#2813 5 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

So if they can produce things for other people that fit within how they want to operate... they would be open to it. And that's what they've been demonstrating with these new contracted manufacturing agreements.

I'm not sure what people aren't getting here, they are building MMr, Whoa Nellie and have to generate other manufacturing projects to keep the facility at full capacity and all of that fixed overhead busy.

If I'm not mistaken, I read somewhere that the new partners intend to attempt to expand into "gaming devices" with the new capacity. And whatever else they can manufacture that gives them the profit margin they need.

It's been and still is called "Stern Pinball, Inc.". Historically, and I am curious about this from anybody that knows otherwise, they have been in the business of licensing, designing and building pinball machines! This has been their model for two decades now.

The business plan has changed with the new partners apparently to diversify into other businesses like gaming and sub contracting as a manufacturer. Btw, the margins on sub work has to be much smaller.

They know pinball, let's see if they can translate what they do into other business segments they don't know.

From Stern's own front page website.

"Stern Pinball, Inc. (“SPI”) is the oldest and largest designer and manufacturer of arcade-quality pinball games on the planet!
SPI offers a full-line of commercial and consumer pinball games, merchandise, parts and accessories that are sold to pinball operators, enthusiasts and fans around the globe. The company traces its lineage to the early 1930’s and the founding of modern pinball. Sam Stern, the father of SPI’s Founder, Chairman and CEO, Gary Stern, was part-owner and President of pinball pioneer, Williams Electronics. Williams and other innovative companies including Bally and Gottlieb formed the foundation on which the pinball industry was built."

And yes, I certainly wish Jpop would sub the manufacturing out to Stern or JJP, we might actually receive pins within a couple of years.

#2814 5 years ago

An interesting video from March of 2012, "behind you is a working prototype of MG"....

#2815 5 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

And yes, I certainly wish Jpop would sub the manufacturing out to Stern or JJP, we might actually receive pins within a couple of years.

I do too, but considering both of them have denied building/purchasing WOOLY, a larger run than any of JPop's games, I think we have to assume neither is going to help out here. I'd rather see all of JPop's games get out to the public with larger runs, but the situation is what it is, a niche product that most will never see.

#2816 5 years ago

Iceman, I don't think anyone is arguing that Stern Pinball, Inc. is not a PINBALL manufacturer. (The PINBALL market segment is a given.) Nevertheless, they are not just a pinball manufacturer of LICENSED themes. They are a MANUFACTURER of both licensed and original themes, and the licensing is only a secondary consideration behind the primary objective of maximizing factory utilization and covering overhead costs. Both licensed and original themes meet that primary objective.

#2817 5 years ago
Quoted from Razorbak86:

They are a MANUFACTURER of both licensed and original themes, and the licensing is only a secondary consideration behind the primary objective of maximizing factory utilization and covering overhead costs. Both licensed and original themes meet that primary objective.

What original themes has Stern developed and manufactured in the last decade?

Does this make sense to you?

They have "licensed" pins first. Then designed and developed them. Then manufactured and sold them.

All with the idea of "maximizing factory utilization" and "covering overhead costs". Which, if you recall, back in 08 and the cost cutting era they were on the verge of shutting down themselves. Here comes Dave Peterson and Hagerty in 09 as a new "business partner" for Stern.

They are now, NOT historically, "manufacturing" via on a sub contract basis, other pinball machines such as MMr and Whoa Nellie, the latter of which is an "original theme".

Thus, the PRIMARY money making objective has been "licensing" GREAT themes, and they continue to do so and generate the majority of their profits from such methods (i.e. AC/DC), and still has not changed to this date, nor will it in the near future. It's NOT secondary to maximize the factory utilization, its PRIMARY, if they don't license and develop pinball machines, their core business, then they don't have a factory to utilize because they are out of business.

#2818 5 years ago
Quoted from Baiter:

I'd rather see all of JPop's games get out to the public with larger runs

Ditto !!!

#2819 5 years ago
Quoted from Baiter:

I do too, but considering both of them have denied building/purchasing WOOLY, a larger run than any of JPop's games, I think we have to assume neither is going to help out here. I'd rather see all of JPop's games get out to the public with larger runs, but the situation is what it is, a niche product that most will never see.

Well Stern is a manufacturer of "original" pinball themes on a sub contract basis and have to keep the factory at maximum utilization

They might not "buy" the concept from Scott and Riot or Jpop, but for the right margins they would "manufacture" those pins, because its their "primary" concern right?

#2820 5 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

The company makes money by building product - not by designing stuff. The worlds greatest pinball doesn't mean jack if it's not generating orders for units.

I'm done beating this dead horse after this comment.

This just blows me away. Stern has to license and develop product FIRST before they can ever BUILD it. Thus they make money with the right license, like Ac/dc, designed by Ritchie and coded by Lyman, that is how they generate orders and make money, licensing and developing pins that people want to buy!

#2821 5 years ago

Iceman, judging by your last few posts, it looks like some of the things that I have said may be getting under your skin, which is unfortunate, because that was never my intent. I'm not trying to make you mad, but we seem to be talking past each other.

I keep talking about the present, and you keep referring to the past. Please re-read my posts in this thread, and you will see that everything I have said has been stated in the present tense (e.g., "They are", "Stern is", "they want"). I think that may be the root cause of the disconnect.

#2822 5 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Well Stern is a manufacturer of "original" pinball themes on a sub contract basis and have to keep the factory at maximum utilization

Technically the license holder of Woah Nellie is a third party to Stern, just like all their other games.

Quoted from iceman44:

They might not "buy" the concept from Scott and Riot or Jpop, but for the right margins they would "manufacture" those pins, because its their "primary" concern right?

That's absolutely correct. On one hand it makes complete sense to assemble MMr because it is a large volume. Woah Nellie doesn't make as much financial sense, but I'm glad to see them doing it... and in that I'd like to see them do more of the same for other designers.

#2823 5 years ago

Holy shit, can we talk about Hitler for a change of pace?

#2824 5 years ago

I think the only reason Stern even cares about licensed themes is because it basically guarantees a certain number of units sold which mitigates risk. It also reduces the creative requirements which I'm sure are very costly. I'm sure they would happily sell original, Stern-trademarked themes if it was less risky and costly than licensed themes. Sadly, the licensed themes are less risky and that's why you end up with machines like Mustang.

#2825 5 years ago
Quoted from Razorbak86:

Iceman, judging by your last few posts, it looks like some of the things that I have said may be getting under your skin, which is unfortunate, because that was never my intent. I'm not trying to make you mad, but we seem to be talking past each other.
I keep talking about the present, and you keep referring to the past. Please re-read my posts in this thread, and you will see that everything I have said has been stated in the present tense (e.g., "They are", "Stern is", "they want"). I think that may be the root cause of the disconnect.

I realize we are talking past each other, not mad at all, and maybe you do get it, Stern's primary focus, yesterday, today and into the future is "licensing and developing" great pinball themes. That is how they make money.

If they license and develop a great theme like Ac/dc first then they get to keep the manufacturing line busy by selling 1000's of pins. They will fill any void, secondarily, with other manufacturing projects. If that is what you are trying to get at then we agree. If not then we don't, no biggie

In any event, I'm hoping Jpop's pins will fill partly fill that "void" in the future.

#2826 5 years ago
Quoted from Baiter:

I do too, but considering both of them have denied building/purchasing WOOLY, a larger run than any of JPop's games, I think we have to assume neither is going to help out here.

Yes, but the WOOLY thing is based on a throwaway one liner in the WOOLY thread.

Who knows what discussions took place?

"Hi Gary. I'm Scott. I've designed a pinball machine. I think it's pretty neat. You want to buy it?"

"Hi Scott. I hear that 20 times at every expo. No thanks"

It could have been as simple as that.

I'm sure if someone fronted up there with cash monies and said "Gary and your mates, make me 100 pinball machines next month. Here's your money" then Gary would be holding out his hand (the one without the vodka lol) and taking it. "Thanks very much"

Here's me and Gary discussing my infamous HERPES pin project ... Cough cough ...

image.jpg

#2827 5 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Stern's primary focus, yesterday, today and into the future is "licensing and developing" great pinball themes. That is how they make money.
If they license and develop a great theme like Ac/dc first then they get to keep the manufacturing line busy by selling 1000's of pins.

You are sort of making a chicken or the egg argument. If Stern manufactures junk, the theme won't matter. If stern produced great original themes, they could still sell games (but likely not as many). Licensing and developing great themes is a support function of the manufacturing operation and therefore is the secondary concern. The manufacturing operation is clearly the primary function of Stern considering their factory expansion. If your argument was right, Stern would be looking to outsource their production.

#2828 5 years ago
Quoted from rotordave:

Yes, but the WOOLY thing is based on a throwaway one liner in the WOOLY thread.
Who knows what discussions took place?
"Hi Gary. I'm Scott. I've designed a pinball machine. I think it's pretty neat. You want to buy it?"
"Hi Scott. I hear that 20 times at every expo. No thanks"
It could have been as simple as that.

It's more like a couple paragraphs in different posts. Maybe it was presented to Stern and JJP very early on, but at this point it is fully designed and coded and has been shown and played by real people at real shows, so its an entirely different situation than something in the idea stage.

#2829 5 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

An interesting video from March of 2012, "behind you is a working prototype of MG"....
» YouTube video

I'm going to have to have to call BS on that. That was when he was designing at his house. I was there working a week before this video was shot and MG and BHZA (along with the redemption game) were all Nordmanite models with black and white paper art, the original Egyptian game before the "magic" redesign.

There were NO operational prototype games at that time. Not even by the loosest definition.

#2830 5 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

An interesting video from March of 2012, "behind you is a working prototype of MG"....
» YouTube video

In hindsight, John is really coming off as a flake.

QSS

#2831 5 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Historically, and I am curious about this from anybody that knows otherwise, they have been in the business of licensing, designing and building pinball machines! This has been their model for two decades now.

They aren't in the licensing business... Gary simply thinks his games need to be licensed to be well received. You have the cart in front of the horse. They license because Gary thinks its a necessity for his product.. not because they say "we have this great license, what can we build".

Stern has a factory... that's their prime asset. Not sure how long you've been around, but you might go back and learn that Gary has changed the design part of the business like some people change shirts. He's gone as far as basically outsourcing the whole of it (Example: the PLD games), keeping guys only on as contractors (Example: SRP period) only to bring it back in house later. But what was consistent throughout? The idea he has a factory to build product.

I assume you've never seen this before? You should look closely.. you should see the parts reuse here in one of their non-pinball games.
1033280417_5ae07d6012.jpg

Quoted from iceman44:

The business plan has changed with the new partners apparently to diversify into other businesses like gaming and sub contracting as a manufacturer. Btw, the margins on sub work has to be much smaller.

No one paid Stern for it's R&D.. that is money it had to make in it's wholesale margin. So before each game had to pay for R&D, BOM costs and manufacturing. Paying a design team for 12-18m is not cheap. When Stern is the contract partner, the costs to recover shrink dramatically for Stern as they don't pay for the BOM costs or R&D. Plus now they can charge markup on things they always had to do as a cost (logistics, sourcing, packaging, etc). So their cost per unit to Stern plummets... while they can add markup on what used to be pure costs prior. Plus, there is no inventory worries... games built = games sold as far as they are concerned. Their exposure plummets.

This is why it's attractive for Stern to open their business. It lowers their risk, while being able to charge others for what they've perfected which before was simply a cost of business.

Go back to interviews from designers in the 90s at WMS... the factory schedule ruled everything. Their job was to get the job done on time to 'feed the beast' because if the factory isn't running, no one is making any money.

Games not hitting the loading dock = the company running in the red. That's why factory output is the actual heart that pumps the rest of the body. They need product demand so the factory has orders to fulfill... but they design games to generate demand for their factory output. If they could maintain demand and build the same game for many years they would be happy to do so.

#2832 5 years ago

"Contract manufacturing" is the term you are looking for and it is nothing new to Stern. For years they built a fair amount of Sega, Namco, and others' product including things like Crazy Taxi, Turret Tower (name?), mocap Samurai game that was pretty cool, Jack's Shuffle Alley, etc. It really dried up after awhile, but it was in fact part of Stern's (the entity) business plan.

#2833 5 years ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

New posts on the blog, nice look at the current backglass in place with the backbox speaker placement. I like the look and really like the integrated speakers.

Was told every picture of the back glass he tried to hide full view of the panel by covering different areas each time with the blue protector sheet? So at no time can u see all of it clearly but u can see all of it piece by piece... How stupid is that? He's still hiding it as a whole from the people paying, no ones going to steal the art work? It just shows where his mind set is.. Paranoia at the extra about something that's not even a patent restriction.

Banging head against wall imogi if I new how to link one

-1
#2834 5 years ago

...
Real late at night shouldn't have posted.
Sorry if you saw that.

Edit ah screw it, see two post down

-1
#2835 5 years ago
Quoted from lllvjr:

Was told every picture of the back glass he tried to hide full view of the panel by covering different areas each time with the blue protector sheet? So at no time can u see all of it clearly but u can see all of it piece by piece... How stupid is that? He's still hiding it as a whole from the people paying, no ones going to steal the art work? It just shows where his mind set is.. Paranoia at the extra about something that's not even a patent restriction.
Banging head against wall imogi if I new how to link one

Again not accurate...

Oh and I thought RAZA ppl be happy...
That mean prototypes are being put together...

#2836 5 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

An interesting video from March of 2012, "behind you is a working prototype of MG"....
» YouTube video

Almost 3 years ago.

-3
#2837 5 years ago
Quoted from lllvjr:

Was told every picture of the back glass he tried to hide full view of the panel by covering different areas each time with the blue protector sheet? So at no time can u see all of it clearly but u can see all of it piece by piece... How stupid is that? He's still hiding it as a whole from the people paying, no ones going to steal the art work? It just shows where his mind set is.. Paranoia at the extra about something that's not even a patent restriction.
Banging head against wall imogi if I new how to link one

Quoted from lllvjr:

Was in on two mg now just a piece of one, and refunded on raza #8 cause I had a feeling mg would get done and raza would be left holding the bag... But I'll be delightfully wrong if he gets there

Quoted from lllvjr:

After seeing inside what jack had to go through to get woz done I bailed. I Was raza #8
I feel bad for the group that still are waiting

I think you just proved his paranoia as valid…You've left the blog yet someone is leaking you information…and not really doing a good job to boot…This is why we can't have nice things, some jackass has to ruin it. Yeah the post was about the prototype back glass but if it had been a really cool new toy you still would have heard about it.

Note the blog thread he's referring to was made yesterday.

#2838 5 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

An interesting video from March of 2012, "behind you is a working prototype of MG"....
» YouTube video

the exact quote is:

"and just behind you, which no one can see off camera, is our prototype Magic Girl, operational."

I don't know what to make of when he makes these claims. On a phone call with him 2 years ago he told me he was finishing up the 3 prototypes and they'd be ready spring 2013.

Then there was the other thread on pinside from 2 years ago where it was said MG prototypes would be shown that month.

Then we have the "reveal" that happened this december, but from reports the games are still not finished, certainly not at "lebowski" level. So how much is left and how long?

#2839 5 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

the exact quote is:
"and just behind you, which no one can see off camera, is our prototype Magic Girl, operational."
I don't know what to make of when he makes these claims. On a phone call with him 2 years ago he told me he was finishing up the 3 prototypes and they'd be ready spring 2013.
Then there was the other thread on pinside from 2 years ago where it was said MG prototypes would be shown that month.
Then we have the "reveal" that happened this december, but from reports the games are still not finished, certainly not at "lebowski" level. So how much is left and how long?

As a artist he's never done. Always changing stuff? Maybe he's had diff versions playable and consistently changing flow of ramps or parts or layout?

#2840 5 years ago

December ends today. Lol

#2841 5 years ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

I think you just proved his paranoia as valid…You've left the blog yet someone is leaking you information…and not really doing a good job to boot…This is why we can't have nice things, some jackass has to ruin it. Yeah the post was about the prototype back glass but if it had been a really cool new toy you still would have heard about it.
Note the blog thread he's referring to was made yesterday.

Keep telling ur self he's protecting ur product... Two more years from now when raza still hasn't shipped and u have a melt down like mg owners did after expo

#2842 5 years ago

What's all this BS about Stern, can we please redirect to the imaginary pins by Jpop?

-1
#2843 5 years ago

Shit I was cool as an Arnold Palmer after expo
but i did get to take a tour which is hugely different than the Expo speech

#2844 5 years ago
Quoted from lllvjr:

As a artist he's never done. Always changing stuff? Maybe he's had diff versions playable and consistently changing flow of ramps or parts or layout?

Artist finish shit all the time. He's not an artist, he's a poor manager of expectations.

#2845 5 years ago
Quoted from lllvjr:

December ends today. Lol

It's becoming clear to me, that John is the one throwing dates and claims out there. The whole expo thing blew up because he had posted 6 weeks before expo that he'd have a "nice reveal" ready for expo.

The MG prototypes have been promised in strong terms for 2 years, the latest being this month's reveal, which there is still no playable game shown. He was the one that hyped up the big reveal this month (on a rug). He did it because it bought some quiet from us as we waited.

He made this infamous quote that I've reposted since on his blog:

Lying to customers is not the way I work, to make them go away for a while. “

but we're seeing an MO. Now we're waiting for the promised RAZA reveal in jan, but we now know how that's going to go.

#2846 5 years ago

To avoid lying to us, he just doesn't talk to us.

#2847 5 years ago

This thread is starting to remind me of the Predator thread, lots of posts but not much real information, hard to keep reading so many posts with nothing really being said, including this

#2848 5 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

The MG prototypes have been promised in strong terms for 2 years, the latest being this month's reveal, which there is still no playable game shown. He was the one that hyped up the big reveal this month (on a rug).

Frolic, It sounds like the MG Prototypes are playable and more than just batting a ball around... See post below from Multiball (I think this was over 2 months ago that he played MG)

Quoted from Multiball1:

QUESTION FOR ***PAID UP*** MAGIC GIRL OWNERS
Admittedly I have not read every post on this thread (viewed about 75%) because I can't keep up with a 100+ posts a day but I was hoping paid up MG owners could help me understand the consensus within that group.
No doubt about it nearly all of us are frustrated with the time to market, but even though most other owners have not had an opportunity to play the proto as I have, what are your thoughts after seeing (on the blog) the final playfield (in entirety), backglass (although he's still hiding a feature in the BG), cabinet, final plastics set exclusive of ramps, and various screenshots of the animated LCD

#2849 5 years ago
Quoted from NYP:

This thread is starting to remind me of the Predator thread, lots of posts but not much real information, hard to keep reading so many posts with nothing really being said, including this

I hear you! I'm just praying that Ted doesn't find his way in here and start posting pictures of himself

#2850 5 years ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

Frolic, It sounds like the MG Prototypes are playable and more than just batting a ball around... See post below from Multiball (I think this was over 2 months ago that he played MG)

Well I look forward to our big raza reveal then. Can't wait to see it.

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