I think I read somewhere that it is 5 magna flippers on MG. Also, my deposit on AIW was $1895 and he just asked for an additional $2000 which is why he is asking all new deposits to be $3895 (guessing). The price on my original flyer is the $9865 as well.

Wrath of Olympus has 6! Which is too many IMHO, but it's not like all new companies are limiting themselves to 2.

No doubt,have deep pocket I would buy all line up games from JPop,looks f'n amazing as expected

I heard Gillette is coming out with a new seven flipper razor... err, I mean pin. Beat that all you boutiques!

Almost bit on AIW. If it's all B&W (ala Centaur) or even just hints of colour here and there... that's gonna be some tight science.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/fuck-everything-were-doing-five-blades,11056/

Is there too many though? The more cross shots you can do, the more you can view the PF from other angles, which is what Lawlor is the king off. As long as they are not redundant flippers, like how they would stack two on each side for many early SS ones for no real reason.

I look at RS, and the two side flippers for the left side, and think that someone could do that, both on both sides, and add in a mini PF to boot.

I just don't get why in 2014 people are still trying to hash through a two flipper design, which is a step backwards from all the designs in the 90s.

What I cluster f$&k this guys web sites are. There is like four maybe five or more pages that all go nowhere...or to pages that look similar but are not? I'd like to look around but I'm not sure that is possible? I dont think I can even properly explain how jacked up his sites are....

Double flips aren't redundant. Aside from anything else, they provide more space for the player to interact with the ball. Look at Big Game... over half of the width of the game is flipper, meaning the player is having to flip at the ball far more often than a narrower arrangement. Double flips without a wall behind the second flipper provide more challenge as you can drain between them. With games such as Paragon and Harlem, some shots are better taken from one or the other lower flippers. Shooting that droptarget from the bottom flipper might lead to drains, but from the upper it comes back much friendlier, etc.

My feeling is that even 3 flippers on a PF is pushing it.

They're always in the same place (about 2/3rd way up of PF on left or right orbit) and you get one or two shots out of it max. Not a good justification for cost.

Exception I might make is Twilight Zone.

Plus mini or upper PF eat up loads of PF real estate and increase build complexity / cost.

Agreed, double flippers where you can drain between them are very cool. It provides a much different strategy, since you can't trap the ball. Sinbad is a great one for this, no inlanes and double flippers. You have to learn to play the bounce off the flippers and swing on the fly.

The scary thing about all those websites is each represents time/energy/money spent on something when he has 2 projects where he has taken people's money and are years behind schedule, with still no end in sight. Even MG seems like we'll be lucky if customers see them in 2015.

"See" them sounds like the operative word. At this point even seeing a fully completed flipping game would be a massive victory.

Consider the only good news I can see from the last while is the leaked vids... give me a break. That was supposed to be a big reveal for March-ish? It seems like these games are nowhere near done if that was the case.

Anybondy thinking these things will be shipping en masse in 2015 has a much more optimistic spirit than I do at this point.

I enjoy 3 flipper games. I like that upper shot, and I also appreciate being able to use the upper flipper to alter the trajectory of the ball. I do that on The Shadow a lot.

Mini playfields and upper playfields though, while they can be cool, I think struggle to justify themselves. They're rarely all that fun, usually block space that could have been used just as effectively, and add a real cost to the BOM.

I guess with a ridiculous $16k game there's little point in trying to talk about build costs. But I think it matters a lot with projects that aren't trying to be so damn expensive.

Wow, surprised so many people prefer fan layout 2 flipper designs, carry on then... Not for me though, probably why I do like Lawlor the best.

No I feel a 3rd flipper being fed by right or left orbit for a difficult ramp shot adds to the game

Probably not his time but I agree. I think this is a case where if you have the money and don't mind waiting years, five six possibly, then you throw down. I know if I had the cash I would throw down on one of his pieces, probably AIW. I think it's a really cool project to be in on, but you have to be willing to pay up and forget. It's not the type of project where your looking around every corner for an update. Judging by the various web pages I've been to, I can see he has a few irons in the fire. One of them was iPhone and iPad games under Zidware, who knows what else he has going on.

As long as the dude doesn't die unexpectedly, I think everyone is going to get their game. It might still be years away but they will.

They look great, but the code is lacking.

I sifted through so many pages I forgot what this thread was about

Whether three flipper designs are good. Also one guy thinks the adobe video is Jpops big march reveal for some reason. I think it's a thread for people confused about how forum threads work. Or confused people in general.

Back on topic, does anyone think MG will be shipping in 2015? or that RAZA will ship in 2016?

Does anyone think that the machines will never be built, or is it just a matter of 'when' (x number of years)?

If it's just a matter of waiting that's bad enough, but I'd really hate to pay so much with nothing to show.

Anxiously awaiting the Shooter Rod reveals.

With John so insistent on not answering our questions, the only thing I'm left with is the answers are not good and these things are a long ways off still. Best I've heard, the MG reveal hasn't shown the actual game playing.

There are also large questions of the software/rules part of it. We know from Stern AND JJP, that have literally the best in the business working on software, it remains a challenge to get it done in a timely fashion.

Lots of questions, very few answers.

The castors were amazing.

Games look great, john has great attention to detail.

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An idea is 1%, execution is 99%

Cashflow is 100%

Am I crazy, or is that photo of the cabinet with the button without armor a potential problem spot?

Is it me, or did that one video from adobe.com reveal more than anything we've ever seen/discussed on this thread at all?

Not only in this thread, but surpassed the info. provided on the blog.

Apparently even more than the MG reveal based on what has been reported.

This part is a shame. I thought the "value" and the "fun ride" for those who sent in money for the pre-order was being able to see everything as it developed.

It's disappointing to hear that those who can see the blog are still mostly in the dark. What's the point of the blog if it's just fish eye lens close ups and no overall big picture? There should be a nice diary of the complete development of everything in the game. Including videos of mechanical testing and game play.

More art posted on the blog.... art with "gory" zombies.. hmmmm .. maybe Jpop is listening after all??

It was ok 2 years ago to see some artwork on the blog or whatever. Once the initial game delivery date passed, now by a year, and we still see nothing significant on the blog (more art, the "empty cabinets" most recently) it is not good or fun. Especially when dozens and dozens of blog posts asking where we're at have been ignored.

The burn is the things we're asking for (updated timetable, production estimates, etc) are not "trade secrets", we're not asking for him to demo some innovative toy that he's worried will get ripped off.

I think the one thing people don't want to see is more art posted. They want a timetable and project budget update for game number one.

From everything I've seen from his process, he probably doesn't even know himself. Or worst case scenario, he doesn't want to scare people with the truth.

Anything less then a flipping game is a joke at this point... Who know what he's thinking

Anybody see Jodorowsky's Dune (available on Netflix)? I watched it last week and am following this thread and I see some similarities...

There is some AIW line art posted by the artist (backglass?):
http://instagram.com/p/w4S0DYPssI/?modal=true

Well we know, based on this instagram post, that the adobe shoot was 4 weeks ago. Based on JPOP time, that was practically yesterday. That means that in the very recent past, the 3 "Nearly Finished" MG prototypes still had hot glue gun created test ramps. Even the wavy ramp we see in the video is clearly a hot-glue-gun test ramp. While those kinds of ramps are a great way to test out your ideas and easily make changes to them, that is a LONG way from pre-production vacuum-formed test ramps, and an even longer way from final manufacturing ramps. From the looks of it, most of the upper playfield stuff is not even close to pre-production stage.

JPOP technically can get foam-core test games flipping, so it doesn't mean much to say that he has a flipping white wood as far as where in the design process he is. I would say that those 3 MG prototypes look like they are probably somewhere right in the middle between a foamcore test layout and an honest to god preproduction game. Real printed wood test playfields and mechs on the base layer, still conceptual stage with all the upper playfield stuff, which is where most of the custom manufactured parts will come in. And who knows if the art is signed off as complete (I loved how Jeremy laughed when JPOP suggested he's the one who will just lock a piece of art as finalized when the tinkering goes on too long).

Unless he feels the need to flip a switch, quit dicking around, and start locking in designs with honest to god pre-pro test parts, I really wouldn't be surprised with another 2 years to get these things to production (I am assuming the previous 4 years had a lot of distractions with the aborted BHZA path). And I still have zero idea about how he plans to produce these things. I guarantee he isn't going to hang up his designer hat so he can put on his Factory Supervisor hat full time for the duration of the build.

Based on the substance of what we've seen in this drawn-out "On the rug" reveal, I am convinced that JPOP thought the lesson to be learned from "The Lebowski Effect" was that he merely needed better marketing. Despite the fact that the adobe video came months earlier than he wanted, it appears, from the enthusiastic response from a lot of his formally disgruntled customers, that he was right.

Haha, yeah, I've had the same thought more than once while reading this.

To be fair there's a shot in the video (posted in this thread too) showing the wavy ramp with what looks like a real vacuum-formed ramp, not just hot glued foamcore.

My guess would be that he can't possibly have the money for it to take that long. Either he gets these moving fast, or he will have to fold.

I think the video created about 24 hours of buzz, but that has receded again to the pressing concerns about the entire operation.

we'll probably see another little buzz bump at times in the future if/when anything substantial is shown. Most likely MG will be shown just enough to then follow it up with the rumored sales (ahem, pre-orders) of the additional 30 units. but even for those potential buyers, they're probably looking at a lengthy process, but at least they are part of a cash injection.

Interesting to see if 30 more people would be willing to roll the dice at this point, at this price point.

before expo I would have jumped at a spot for MG. now my confidence is shaken, and I dismiss the "you need faith" part of pre-ordering. faith should have nothing to do with it and is a ridiculous idea for pinball.

I'll need to see the final game. and by final, I mean final production game, with completed software. I'll need more than cabinet and backglass photos and some led chasers.

And if I miss the boat? Somehow I'll live, and be thankful these are the kinds of problems I have.

Jpop is a kept man, lets not worry too much about the finances, he"s doing what he loves and i'm pretty sure the MG's will eventually be made

Really sad/bummed to hear you say this Ben. More player interaction is always good and IMHO if you are thinking as upper flippers ONLY for the 1-2 shots they are mainly used for then you are missing the beauty of upper/extra flippers. They add a whole additional dynamic to a game for redirecting ball movement, richocheting to other shots or even using them as a new path (i.e. Stern ST under the flipper shot). More flippers can add a whole new level of fun player interaction to a game. The more I can interact with the ball, the better.

Maybe this is common knowledge, but who is he "kept" by? If he's being supported by a wealthy spouse that would certainly change the financial dynamics of his projects.

She's on almost everyone one of his machines you just need to ask the right questions will leave to others to do their homework. He is a good man, lets hope he can keep moving towards the finish line. Time we know is not in is vocab neither is focusing on one thing, so we will all just have to wait this out!