Alice in Wonderland
Gottlieb, 1948
Houdini
American Pinball, 2017
Magic Girl
Zidware Pinball USA, 2017
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2012Quoted from PinballHelp:And Ben probably has 20x the depth of skillsets JPop has
Ben could (and it would seem pretty much did) do everything on AMH except setup production. He did the boards, he created the hellevator, he did the dots, he did the code (multiple times), pretty sure he did the art.
Beyond that, Ben has a strong work ethic and doesn't noodle around. If something is working out, he'll figure out another way to attack a problem.
Hasn't this thread run it's course? Everyone agrees 100% John screwed everyone and is being a complete idiot about it. It's just turned into drama for drama's sake. Someone should start a thread on the lawsuit(s) and put this one to bed.
John is an asshole! There, I'm done. I might even take a forced 24 hour siesta 
Quoted from RobT:At this point it looks as though no Answer has been filed to the Complaint by either Zidware or JPop himself. Looks like the case is heading towards a Default Judgment, and that would include a Judgment against Zidware and JPop and his wife personally. That would mean JPop and his wife would have to file for personal bankruptcy to avoid paying the Judgment or collection efforts. I'm a bit surprised by this to be honest. Who knows, maybe he knew he kept shit records and didn't follow the corporate formalities and therefore piercing the corporate veil was probable, so he just decided not to fight it? Who knows?
Is that it? Simple as that? It's over?
John basically said how this was going to go:
I probably could not afford either to hire lawyers needed. Never been sued or charged in the past “for anything”, lead a quiet (somewhat) peaceful career, so I have no experience at all, other than the attorneys make out fine financially and not all attorneys are to be “trusted” as I have learn firsthand.
Quoted from frolic:Is that it? Simple as that? It's over?
John basically said how this was going to go:
This lawsuit would be over (Default) but the rest of it's not over until JPop files for BK. If he doesn't do that, then the efforts to collect on the Judgment starts.
The funny thing is that even with the quote from JPop that you posted, I still have no idea what he's thinking...
Quoted from RobT:The funny thing is that even with the quote from JPop that you posted, I still have no idea what he's thinking...
He's thinking, "where my 3 dolla coffee at?!?" Followed by, "how do I pull off double layered color contrasting socks teamed with the freshest new yellow sneaks and not clash with my orange home perm?"
And finally, "ohhh yeah, plenty of purple LEDs, baybee!"
Quoted from dgarrett:Larry is a damn good business man. You produce value, and you get paid. John didn't produce, he shouldn't get paid. Simple.
So you're saying every employee that does a bad job.. and you goto fire them... you ask them to return the salary you already paid them? Yeah, how's that going for you?
You're using hindsight to revoke what was already done.. pure genius.
You guys literally act like no one has ever had to live with the consequences of bad choices.
Quoted from dgarrett:Well then, time to put all this posting wisdom and energy into the pinball business of Flynntasia. Walk with me.... When are you hiring 4-5 guys at 90k and year and showing us your first whitewood. What's the theme and price point? Who's financing it? = unless you start making those kind of posts, your repetitiveness is worthless
The bleeding irony here is why didn't people scrutinize JPop that way before giving him their money.
Quoted from dgarrett:If you can blow $500k a year on salaries, and make 500 games, starting tomorrow, selling at $6k - $5k bill of materials, so the $1k x 500 cover just your annual salaries - go for it. Who pays for the shop, tools, rent, and healthcare? Oops, the games now cost $8k. How about a little profit and some extra for the design kitty for game 2? Oops, charge $10k.
You keep saying you or Jpop can do that? Build pinballs? at a profit? Profit, you keep using that word, I don't think it means what you think it means. ... your model says 500 at 10k, and can't deliver.
Oh yeah, that pesky uncomfortable truth - Spooky builds 150 games a year, at $6k and makes it work.
What on earth are you babbling about? Your making strawmans left and right to make yourself feel better?
Quoted from boo32:I don't think Bill is trying to dissuade people from suing John, I think he is trying to explain how this will likely play out. Anyone who sues John for breach of contract can win the case because the breach is clear and John has no defense at all. The person suing then has a piece of paper at the courthouse saying Zidware owes him money. That person then can begin proceedings to collect on his judgment from Zidware assets and possibly John's personal assets.
At any time in the proceedings, John can file bankruptcy which will result in any legal action being put on hold. Zidware will file a list of creditors with the court and they will be given notice to make claims. Zidware will also file lists of assets and liabilities and the bankruptcy court will decide how to handle the assets to pay the liabilities.
Zane intends to go after John's personal assets, but that is not an easy thing to do. It typically involves significant amounts being paid to forensic accountants. Although Zane may pay these costs, they have to be re-paid from any recovery along with the costs of the bankruptcy. Zane will have to litigate in the bankruptcy court whether or not the Zidware bankruptcy prevents the litigants from proceeding against John personally.
I think that what Bill is saying is that you really only need enough suits for John to file bankruptcy. Then, everyone can file claims with the bankruptcy court. Given that the bankruptcy distribution will be pro rata and applejuice is owed five figures and Cointaker is owed six figures, there likely will not be much left to pay the people who sent Zidware money to buy games.
Let's say someone had 6500 in on RAZA. This is what it would cost a person to go through Zane:
100% recovered: 6500 * .25 + 500 = 2125
50% recovered: 3250 * .25 + 500 = 1312.50
To file suit yourself, you may or may not get assistance from a lawyer to prepare your case, then you need to file/fees and then travel there, since small claims has to be done local. I assume anyone willing to spend the money on airfaire, hotel and rental car would probably use an attorney so as not to get out there and find out the hard way their case is flawed. I think for most, this would also involve burning some vacation time, not to mention a possible additional uncomfortable conversation with the spouse explaining how you need to fly across the country to go sue John and have to skip little Billy's play, etc.
Quoted from flynnibus:So you're saying every employee that does a bad job.. and you goto fire them... you ask them to return the salary you already paid them? Yeah, how's that going for you?
john is not an employee, he took money to build pinballs, not "try" to build pinballs. If it were that easy, I'm taking pre-orders right now. I'll get zombi-yeti to draw whatever art you want, just pay me cash, and I'll slap some art on some wood, put some ITALIAN BOTTOM flippers on it, couple ramps and call it a day.
Quoted from RobT:This lawsuit would be over (Default) but the rest of it's not over until JPop files for BK. If he doesn't do that, then the efforts to collect on the Judgment starts.
The funny thing is that even with the quote from JPop that you posted, I still have no idea what he's thinking...
You don't "get what" he's "saying" even though he puts things "in" quotes?
Quoted from toyotaboy:john is not an employee, he took money to build pinballs, not "try" to build pinballs
I suggest you lookup the concept of a corporation and get back to us.
Quoted from flynnibus:I suggest you lookup the concept of a corporation and get back to us
no problem
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation
Doesn't apply to John since he's not a corporation (in the sense of hierachy, or stock investments), he's a one man show. Anyone that worked for him were contractors, not direct employees. He's more of a sole proprietorship:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sole_proprietorship
"Owned and run by one natural person and in which there is no legal distinction between the owner and the business. The owner is in direct control of all elements and is legally accountable for the finances of such business and this may include debts, loans, loss etc. The owner receives all profits (subject to taxation specific to the business) and has unlimited responsibility for all losses and debts. Every asset of the business is owned by the proprietor and all debts of the business are the proprietor's. The owner is exclusively liable for all business activities conducted by the sole proprietorship and accordingly, entitled to full control and all earnings associated with it."
Nowhere in either does it talk about how the company distributes salaries. It only talks about structures. Also any talk of earnings, first you have to have earnings (IE build a product and sell it). John didn't build anything sellable, he simply took in money with promises to build things. That's not a business. It sure talks plenty about being legally liable and accountable for debts and losses.
Quoted from toyotaboy:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation
Doesn't apply to John since he's not a corporation (in the sense of hierachy, or stock investments), he's a one man show. Anyone that worked for him were contractors, not direct employees. He's more of a sole proprietorship:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sole_proprietorship
John himself obviously isn't a corporation. But Zidware appears to be. There's no rule that corporations have to have more than one employee. And a single person can own all of the shares in a corporation. You just have to follow the specific rules to set up and maintain a corporation (file certain forms with the state, keep certain types of records, etc.)
The point is that if John messed up in following these rules in creating and operating Zidware, then it may be possible to reach John's personal assets to recover liabilities of Zidware, the corporation (i.e. to "pierce the corporate veil"). But I'm not sure anyone (other than maybe Bill, who has apparently looked at the books) knows enough about how well John was following those rules to predict how Zidware will be viewed by a court.
Quoted from Coyote:Wow. I have Cameron Silver's WMS business card. Wonder if I should auction THAT off? I mean, he did (still does?) good work!
Save it for now, trust me.
Quoted from Concretehardt:Maybe John and Kevin could combine forces... Skit B/Zidware = SKITWARE??
More like SKIDWEAR...
Quoted from PismoArcade:I can't help but wonder why Bill continues to dissuade anyone from suing John.
Quoted from boo32:I don't think Bill is trying to dissuade people from suing John, I think he is trying to explain how this will likely play out. Anyone who sues John for breach of contract can win the case because the breach is clear and John has no defense at all. The person suing then has a piece of paper at the courthouse saying Zidware owes him money. That person then can begin proceedings to collect on his judgment from Zidware assets and possibly John's personal assets.
At any time in the proceedings, John can file bankruptcy which will result in any legal action being put on hold. Zidware will file a list of creditors with the court and they will be given notice to make claims. Zidware will also file lists of assets and liabilities and the bankruptcy court will decide how to handle the assets to pay the liabilities.
Zane intends to go after John's personal assets, but that is not an easy thing to do. It typically involves significant amounts being paid to forensic accountants. Although Zane may pay these costs, they have to be re-paid from any recovery along with the costs of the bankruptcy. Zane will have to litigate in the bankruptcy court whether or not the Zidware bankruptcy prevents the litigants from proceeding against John personally.
I think that what Bill is saying is that you really only need enough suits for John to file bankruptcy. Then, everyone can file claims with the bankruptcy court. Given that the bankruptcy distribution will be pro rata and applejuice is owed five figures and Cointaker is owed six figures, there likely will not be much left to pay the people who sent Zidware money to buy games.
I think the point is to get to Johns personal assets, since his company assets have been transferred to his personal assets, it may be difficult to pierce the corporate veil but like Willy Sutton said when he was asked why did he rob banks. He said because that's where the money is.
Quoted from PinballHelp:I'm really curious what amazingly/special/unique skill a "pinball designer" has?
At this point Ben Heck has probably designed as many pinball machines as John Papadiuk.
And Ben probably has 20x the depth of skillsets JPop has.
So what exactly makes him such a rare commodity? What can JPop do that anyone else here cannot?
I can pull up a CAD program and design a playfield, and then move things around.
I can bat a ball around on a whitewood and say, "let's put a pop bumper over there and a flipper up there."
I can dictate a ruleset.
Almost anyone in this forum, if they had the resources traditional designers had at their fingertips: software people, dot matrix designers, mechanical engineers, art departments, etc. could also design a pinball machine.
So exactly what special unique ability do these three dozen people have? Enquiring minds want to know.
The secret is you have to be able to design a machine that sells well. That requires tremendous play appeal. This play appeal has to be to the players. Those that walk up to a machine in a public location and put money in as well as home collectors.
Quoted from jonnyo:Let's say someone had 6500 in on RAZA. This is what it would cost a person to go through Zane:
100% recovered: 6500 * .25 + 500 = 2125
50% recovered: 3250 * .25 + 500 = 1312.50
To file suit yourself, you may or may not get assistance from a lawyer to prepare your case, then you need to file/fees and then travel there, since small claims has to be done local. I assume anyone willing to spend the money on airfaire, hotel and rental car would probably use an attorney so as not to get out there and find out the hard way their case is flawed. I think for most, this would also involve burning some vacation time, not to mention a possible additional uncomfortable conversation with the spouse explaining how you need to fly across the country to go sue John and have to skip little Billy's play, etc.
I thought Zane keeps 25% so you multiplier should be .75 (no?)
100% recovered $6500 x .75 = $4875 - $500 = $4375
50% recovered $6500/2 = $3250 x.75 = $2437 - $500 = $2437
Quoted from rai:I thought Zane keeps 25% so you multiplier should be .75 (no?)
He was showing what you end up paying to get the value back, not the amount you could potentially deposit into your bank account. You're both right, just ying/yang.
Quoted from rai:I thought Zane keeps 25% so you multiplier should be .75 (no?)
100% recovered $6500 x .75 = $4875 - $500 = $4375
50% recovered $6500/2 = $3250 x.75 = $2437 - $500 = $2437
You're calculating how much the buyer would get to keep after a victory, jonnyo was calculating how much the buyer would be paying Zane for his services. I think his point was that getting a lawyer to litigate a relatively complicated breach of contract case for $2k (or potentially much less, if there's less than 100% recovery) is a pretty good deal.
[EDIT: Nibbles beat me to it!]
Quoted from Nibbles:He was showing what you end up paying to get the value back
OIC
Quoted from RobT:At this point it looks as though no Answer has been filed to the Complaint by either Zidware or JPop himself. Looks like the case is heading towards a Default Judgment, and that would include a Judgment against Zidware and JPop and his wife personally. That would mean JPop and his wife would have to file for personal bankruptcy to avoid paying the Judgment or collection efforts. I'm a bit surprised by this to be honest. Who knows, maybe he knew he kept shit records and didn't follow the corporate formalities and therefore piercing the corporate veil was probable, so he just decided not to fight it? Who knows?
Is there a chance that John or his wife are friends with a judge or other influential person who could get a judge to dismiss the case?
Quoted from MrBally:Is there a chance that John or his wife are friends with a judge or other influential person who could get a judge to dismiss the case?
Now that would be some impressive corruption! Never going to happen.
Quoted from MrBally:Is there a chance that John or his wife are friends with a judge or other influential person who could get a judge to dismiss the case?
Good lord, no!
Quoted from toyotaboy:no problem
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation
Doesn't apply to John since he's not a corporation (in the sense of hierachy, or stock investments), he's a one man show
No... Zidware is a incorporated corporation in the state of Illinois. People were buying games from Zidware.. not JPop as an individual. JPop is the president of zidware, and likely the sole shareholder.. or some scheme of shareholders he controls. John is an officer, and can be an employee of zidware.. including getting paid, and being isolated from the legal entity of Zidware within certain constraints.
So like I said... go and lookup a corporation... and you can lookup corporations in Illinois too
Quoted from gweempose:So are you saying that he purposely slowed the production of MG and RAZA to increase the liklihood that he would get bought out before he actually had to reveal the games to the buyers?
Why would you go after revenue?
If you show revenue, people will always ask, ‘How much,’ and it will never be enough.
You have to always keep your company in a “pre-revenue” state.
Do you know what ROI stands for? Radio On Internet.
roi.pngQuoted from vid1900:Why would you go after revenue?
If you show revenue, people will always ask, ‘How much,’ and it will never be enough.
You have to always keep your company in a “pre-revenue” state.
Do you know what ROI stands for? Radio On Internet.roi.png
Yeah.... difference is jpop is going from 1 comma to zero commas....
Quoted from flynnibus:Oh you're right... it's so trivial a chimp could find success in that business. In fact, the world seems overflowing with past successful game studio leads. You basically just trivialized every profession out there with that mindset.
I guess it's just dumb luck on what games and companies succeed. How did any of us ever miss that?
He is in part correct. I have heard enough about how hard desinging a pin is. Conversely, I don't spout off about how hard it is to design a million dollar plastic injection mold, as if only a handfull of really really smart guys can do it. That would be arrogant to the point of absurdity
PEN
Quoted from PEN:Conversely, I don't spout off about how hard it is to design a million dollar plastic injection mold, as if only a handfull of really really smart guys can do it. That would be arrogant to the point of absurdity
PEN
Word. 
Quoted from chessiv:Hasn't this thread run it's course? Everyone agrees 100% John screwed everyone and is being a complete idiot about it. It's just turned into drama for drama's sake. Someone should start a thread on the lawsuit(s) and put this one to bed.
John is an asshole! There, I'm done. I might even take a forced 24 hour siesta
Yeah, this has been said a few times.
When I dicide not to read or post, I stop reading....and posting.
I'm not trying to be an A-hole, but seriously a lot of people agree with you, hopefully they aren't reading it then. 
No disrespect intended to you sir.
Quoted from wcbrandes:Dutch Pinball
Being Dutch I must admit I am curious why Dutch Pinball pops up in this thread from you. Care to elaborate?
Hey gang, we've said it before several times:
If this thread bothers or causes you anxiety in some way, just drain the thread (many people already have done so, follow their example). We will not close this thread, as several new ones will just pop up in its place and the discussion will spill over.
The dumpster fire that is this thread will remain open for the time being. Use the drain thread feature, thank you.
Quoted from TigerLaw:The dumpster fire that is this thread
More like a never ending black smoke tire fire .
Here's a scary thought:
Zidware's money is gone, but John - by all accounts, in Skit-B fashion - hasn't accepted its over.
My first question is "how does he stay in that building?" Well what if he pays the rent personally from the money he made as Zidware's genius president? He could, in theory, continue noodling for another year or two at that rate.
Until the landlord kicks him out, I don't believe the money is truly "gone" and the longer he noodles, the less there is for recovery.
PS: Pinball is hard, but not "4 years and a million bucks hard"
Quoted from benheck:Until the landlord kicks him out, I don't believe the money is truly "gone" and the longer he noodles, the less there is for recovery.
His day of reckoning is near. The lawsuits are coming. There is no stopping that train now.
Quoted from benheck:PS: Pinball is hard, but not "4 years and a million bucks hard"
The fact that Kevin Kulek can engineer, program and design circles around JPop (granted with no license) is an indication of lack of core baseline competency for JPop. JPop is a dribbling buffoon who should never attend a pinball event the rest of his life. The man needs to be shunned and chased out of the hobby for what he has done. The fact that he is not embarrassed and still views himself as a victim is a pathetic joke.
Note the above opinion is my own and may not reflect the viewpoints of Pinside or the other moderators.
Quoted from benheck:the longer the noodles, the less there is
yeah , that's what you get with long noodles..
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