Bill, You done with trying to build Pinball Machines?

Would be cool if you got Zombie Yeti and some of the team that worked on MG to work for Pintasia and make a game from scratch.

Wait. What?

Jesus.

Are you the executive of a company, responsible for all it's activities? I think 90k is actually pretty much on the conservative side given the role... one might even say intentionally conservative given the startup nature. Sure we could say he should have taken zero.. but he wasn't being lavish at that kind of number. I figured he'd be more like 150k.

Remember tho.. Zidware was aspiring to be more than just MG. He had ambitions for other revenue streams too. So it's not that extreme, but yeah, the numbers stink when you figure he was trying to build a 'no limits' pinball at the extreme end of lack of scale to diffuse the costs.

Yes and no. Considering Zidware's activities seemed to have amounted to noodling around not doing any/much of the hard work, $7500 a month of other people's money does seem lavish.

Buyers weren't funding John to have a 4 year sabbatical from the real world, or a really expensive daycare slot complete with arts and crafts for little Johnny P.

So... You know how the story ends... and you still think 90k was a conservative number for a guy who is a complete and utter failure at what it was he was supposed to do? Really?

since he has not delivered a single product, it seems pretty obvious that the crazy salary alone is a big part of why he has failed. Imagine if he had 300k still sitting for him to use. Well that an the 4k per month he should not have been spending on rent for his workshop he obviously did not need.

That might be logical, if the capital was venture based or the owner/principal self financed, that is if the bank allows you to pay yourself that much. This case was funded not be investors, or owners, or equity principals, but with contractors for services and delivery of identified goods. Big difference.

Love the formulation.
Wish he could have afforded that without taking preorders' money.

Sure, but the customers also shouldn't be irrational and upset when they learn the company spent product revenue on... the company's expenses.

This is why every company starts with SEED money - you can't startup a company with just sales revenue on your first product. The goal is to start generating money to show promise (and get more investment) or get cash neutral before the seed money runs out... John didn't do either.

No one has discussed how much seed money John started out with, or other revenue sources and instead assumed the only money in the pot was pre-order dollars. I'm sure the preorder was the dominate portion... but I doubt he started with 0 dollars before taking MG sales. If that's the case... a lot of the blame does go to the customers for taking such great risks. Why throw 5 digit numbers at a company with zero capital?

This again comes back to the failure of the business... vs the argument that one's salary is too high. The mistake is he ran the business in a fashion that was not sustainable... not that paying the executive of a R&D organization 90k is too much.

That's a terrible idea. Other than an artist and some cash, you would be pumping a dry well.

Given the role - yes it is a conservative number. Again, look at this objectively for what is involved, and stop thinking passionately about something as if it were your own. This was a business that paid expenses... the mistake is in the running of the business and the choices made.. not that you'd redefine the market value of job positions.

This is the guy who started no less than 5 game designs while not having a viable business plan for any of them..
This is the guy who filled out a large studio from the begining... while not having any plan for incoming revenue...
This is the guy who wanted caviar tastes for all aspect of his games... while completely ignoring the consequences on time and costs

Frankly, the decision on paying himself a salary or not really is not the worst of things and probably has zero impact on the viability of the company and projects anyway. All it was is just a large component of the burn-rate of the company. It really is of little consequence to if the project would have been successful or not.

Ok, let's assume John pays himself nothing... what do we get then? Oh look, instead of 4 years and no games, its now been 7 years and no games! Wonderful.. isn't the world a better place now?

This is all fueled by emotions... people wanting John to feel the pain they want.. vengeance.. etc. Other startups run super lean because they actually have skin in the game and feel urgency to succeed. By paying himself comfortably... John removed that motivation. This is just another of the business failure aspects of his choices.

Just curious how many times you're going to attempt the make the same point over and over?

Again.. which makes the choice a bad business decision - not that the number itself is out of wack. The sin is in the business plan and execution... not so much in the idea of 'Is the lead designer of our product line worth X dollars a year'

People need to separate the notion of 'how to run a business' from 'what is the market value of something'.

For instance his rent... the mistake is in renting that kind of space at that point in time.. more so than saying "did he over pay or not". The root problem is the decision process that should be looking at the sustainability of the business and the timelines.. and less about was something 1.50 a sq/t vs 1.25 a sq/ft.

the same could be said of those I'm replying too... But thanks for adding to the conversation.

I didn't lose anything. I'd never give a whack-job like him money. I've seen first hand his insanity.
No need to redefine anything. He used half of nearly a million dollars to pay himself for doing next to nothing. This is, in any objective view, overpaying for services rendered.

He should have just paid himself a million dollars the first year. A lot of CEO's make a million dollars a year. Nothing wrong with that!

Just to stay one ahead of one of john popadiuk's biggest supporters. There is money left, that is a fact. IMHO John Popadiuk fraudulently transferred money and embezzled among other things. IMHO His wife helped him. Both are in serious trouble. There is a group of victims that are going to try and put them in jail. That is a fact. Whether it works out or not is another issue, but we should be supporting the victims trying to recover and get justice.

If victims can get jail time for john Popadiuk and/or his wife and anyone else that participated In this scam that would be a great thing. The courts will determine the outcome not armchair lawyers in this thread. Don't you WANT john Popadiuk to be punished for what he did to us?

To those of you that want us to all walk away and just forget being victimized - shame on you.

No one is suggesting throwing away money. In this entire debacle $500 seems like a reasonable sum to find Out what the hell happened to your money. IMHO it is irresponsible not to but ymmv. It is certainly irresponsible trying to convince ther victims to just lay there and take it. It's STILL going on and will continue unless some victims stand up and stop it.

You saw the game... what part of changing John's salary would have made the game better or more complete?? What poor choices in the game's design and plan do you attribute to John's salary distraction?

John's salary is basically two things in the project
1) The clock... a clock that ticks down until the money runs out
2) Motivation... the reality of failure or time equating to pain

When we look at what John has pulled together and the game's state - what things do you attribute to his salary situation besides simply the clock running out? If you had 3 more years because he had no salary.. what would change??

The project was going the wrong way... salary is just about how fast the car was going when it hit the wall dead on. Not that he would have avoided the wall.

Maybe John should appear on Shark Tank asking for money. Could be one of their more entertaining segments.

YES!!!!

I support the victims.

Such is the luxury one has when you are your own boss.. the key is to have a business successful enough to be able to sustain it.

Wasteful? Surely.. because we are measuring his output. If Zidware delivered on their games and were building them.. would anyone be questioning the 90k number? No.. Is anyone comparing the 90k number to comparative positions in the industry or market? No...

They are simply saying "company failed, should not have spent that money". It was a bad business move.. like nearly all of his choices. Not that the number itself is a bad number or inflated.

sitg.png

No startup should pay themselves more than "basic living wage" until their company is up and running. If you can't afford this because of a mortgage and kids, don't do it.

In one year John paid himself almost as much as I'll make on the entire run of AMH which took me 3 years. This makes my salary for AMH about 33k, which is still more than a lot of families in this country manage to live on.

Now let's go back and assume I paid myself 100k per year "what I deserve!" 300k / 150 games = $2000 of a $6000 game! That would obliterate Spooky's profits, their employees, and maybe even cut into the BOM = failure.

The math just doesn't work for that kind of salary until you start getting into 400-500 games. Which you'll never get to with a 10k price point.

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Salary also explains why John - supposedly - turned down a 60k salary buyout at Stern.

I'm no lawyer.

That's it. That's how a sentence beginning with those three words should begin and end. If you add a "but"...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......not reading any further.

When I started my business 23 years ago, my partner and I used our savings accounts to get started.

We did not take a salary.

A year later, that money ran out so we both took line's of credit on our homes to the tune of $250K.

We did not take a salary.

Another year went by and we were out of money again, but the business showed real promise so we borrowed another $500K.

We did not take a salary.

The fourth year we started making a profit and began to pay the bank back.

We still did not take a salary.

In year 6, we finished paying the bank the $750K plus interest and made a small profit.

Only then did we take a small salary.

How did I live for almost six years without income? I ate Ramen noodles and mac and cheese. We did not go on a single vacation. We lived on the money my wife earned as a dental assistant. We were poor, but I was motivated.

What happened? We were motivated because we put our entire life on the line. We HAD TO MAKE IT WORK. We had no choice. We really did work 7 days a week. I risked my home, my kids college savings, my retirement, etc... I went ALL IN. I still arrive at the office every single morning by 7AM and often work till 9PM (14 hour days sound familiar?).

The problem is that John never had to go ALL IN. He didn't even put the tip in. If he did, his sole focus would have been on the BOM, making games, and getting them out the door SO HE COULD EVENTUALLY MAKE A PROFIT and get paid. If he had taken a $250K line of credit on his home, risked his kid's college fund, and been eating Ramen Noodles instead of Starbucks, we would all have games in our homes. The model certainly could have worked. Look at Ben and Charlie.

I have ZERO respect left for this man. He justified his salary because he was doing the job of 10 men. Listen to his interview again. "It took 3 or 4 guys just to do the cabling." He probably feels that people still owe him all of the remaining money on these games, not for the actual games, but for all of his dedication and hard work. Nobody ever owed me anything in my life. I EARNED every penny by generating a profit.

HERE IS MY OFFER TO ONE PINSIDER:

If you were burned by John, and you cannot afford to hire Zane Smith because the conditions in your life have changed, please send me an email with your purchase contract and proof of payments attached, and I will send $500 to Zane Smith on your behalf. You will be part of the lawsuit and will maximize your position to try to get something back.

If times have really gotten tough (because life happens and much can change in 4 years) and you don't want to go through Zane, send me all of your info, contracts, payments, etc... and I will send the $500 to you personally instead. It is your choice, but again, I can only do this for one person at this time.

Whoever I help, I will keep your information private. I will not share your information on this forum or anywhere else in my life. You have my word.

My contact info:

Jim Tracy
[email protected]

That is great Jim!!!!

Well spoken, Backflipper.

I've started many businesses myself, and this is always the way it goes. I get paid when and if I fulfill my customers requirements.

I can't believe there are rational people sticking up for Jpop, and what he did. Anyone with a calculator would know that paying yourself that kind of salary along with the other expenses of running a "shop" would leave nothing for building the product you were being given money to create. It's fraud, plain and simple.

*should* being the right word... because you're going in with the notion that money is tight and you want to succeed. Those are business decisions.. you try to run lean. The key concept is LEAN -- John's failure as a money man in his startup is missing that concept. Of course he also failed under his CEO hat, his designer hat, and his marketing hat.

Startups run lean where they can... but you don't get a 'startup discount' on things you need to buy on the open market.. or hire on.. etc.

For all we know this number was 'discounted' in John's brain.

It gets back to -- does this specific salary point change any of the outcome? No

BTW.. who wouldn't turn down a 60k job at Stern.. that's insulting if you are supposedly a role that only a handful of people can pull off and you're in a major metro area.

You're a great guy and that's a nice offer...but if anyone here needs $500, they should not be collecting pinball machines...

If he was worth more, somebody would have offered him more.

I live in Chicago and my wife and I got by on less than $60K a year. We rented a room in a house when we first got married. I have 50 employees today, and 70% of them make less than $50K right now. Somehow, they get by.

I guess I am insulting all of them.

Wow, I wish I was 1/10th the man you are. I don't have the guts to take that kind of risk or go through all that. I feel like a total failure just reading your post. Congrats on your success and kudos to you for the offer you just made to these people. I would love to meet you one day and shake your hand. BTW I do mean this sincerely.

I am just guessing that some lives have changed in the last 4 years. Divorce, death, loss of job, bad investments, etc... Maybe there is somebody no longer collecting...maybe there is somebody that does not even post on these forums, but reads them. Maybe there is someone who needs a break in their favor right now.

Maybe, just one good deed is what this community needs to turn the tide in a positive direction. Pay it forward, right?

That's a nice story - and yes, that's often what it takes to succeed. I've never challenged any of that. You made sacrifices in your attempt to succeed. These are choices - choices not all people make the same.. some succeed, some fail. Some do as you did and still fail.

I'm sure you made other choices too.. like "right sizing" any inventory you took on, or where you stored your stuff, or what kind of contracts you sourced. All of these choices are driven to the idea of prioritizing expenses and running lean because you are trying to operate within constraints and get to a point of sustainability.

To your point about motivation... its as I stated in another post..

By paying himself comfortably up front... he removed some of that pain motivation which doesn't help when he has no other sanity check around him either.

In hindsight, we know JPop didn't have this prioritization and lean kind of thinking... not in the game design, not in his operations, not in his company direction.

None of that really changes what the market rate for what employees are worth though. The difference is if you actually pay people or trade them something instead... and in your case you were operating as an owner. John obviously never was... John started a business without any business sense or partners to give the business that balance.

I think in hindsight we know the FINANCIALS could have worked given the prices charged - but I don't think it would have worked with John driving the boat. The company's output shows that.. the company didn't just run out of time.. they company was adrift, they had no valid business plan, and the product was bad.

The salary situation didn't sink the ship.. it just ensured a timely death.

Do any of them do a job as exclusive as pinball design and producer? Or any of them do any work where there is probably less than 3 dozen qualified people in the world to do it?

The role in question here is not that of a low tier employee, or new hire, or rank and file.

Someone go ask Larry De Mar if he'd switch to your company for 60k a year...

Yep, it's much easier to fail with OPM (Opium) which is OTHER...PEOPLE'S...MONEY.

I used to think flynnibus just trolled me... Now I undrstand that he dislikes most people and likes to troll them all.

Agreed!

I don't think that's really fair, there's a lot of ways you can be a collector on a budget. But I'd agree that if you need $500 you shouldn't be pre-ordering pipe dream concept games from the Mad Hatter.

But still, it's a nice offer, and as he points out, things change. It's been years now!

Handwriting that was (in hindsight) on the wall:

Previously when given a very small team and was largley unsupervised from his peers, what did Jpop create?

SWEP1! This is just the second time he single-handedly tried to destroy pinball. He had his first stab at it in 1999.

When you choose a position where there are only 3 dozen positions available in the world, yes, you have to take what you can get because the odds of another one becoming available can be quite low. Or, you may have to take an entry level position doing something else where you will be paid even less.

Yes, BackFlipper straightened me right out....

Woah, woah.. How the hell do I get 'qualified' to design pins?! This is AWESOME. I did not realize there was a way to get qualified!

Wow, what a racket! JPop got to play arts and crafts in his nice shop for almost 5 years at $90k a year.

How could he justify doing that when he knew he'd need a lot of money at the end to actually build the machines?

John is a clown. I doubt anyone here would dispute that now.

But remember when he launched this, people were lining up to throw money at him. Why? Because he was a good salesman, and leveraged a reputation (that should have been more closely examined) into the investments.

If he'd pulled this off no one would have doubted he was the man to do it. He certainly talked the talk for a bit.

Remember how many people thought he was the one doing the art?

Fraud. That's how. Nail him to the wall.

.

A few more, apparently.

The money was given to John a long time ago. A lot can happen in three years. Someone who was in a position to pay $10K for RAZA back then may be barely keeping their head above water now.

Edit: Looks like Jim beat me to it. Man, does this thread move fast! I stopped to play with my son for a couple minutes and I missed 20 posts.

<drinks>

BTW, "skin in the game" is beating "horse in this race" 3-to-1 (in the "Boutique Pinball" subforum):

SITG.PNG

HITR.PNG

Last I checked, $60K is better than unemployment. If you have a family and no job, you take what you can get and work your ass off until somebody pays you more.

If that's your only offer, I guess you are better off stealing it from the community that supported you? Is that what you're saying? What does Larry DeMar working for my company have to do with anything?