Longwood, FL
not defending the jackwagon john , just it was a mock up not a proto
(Topic ID: 92436)
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Quoted from TecumsehPlissken:that wasn't a prototype game
I get it was never meant for production, but it was a working game that he clearly spent a lot of time on. Sure it wasn't cheap either to create.
Quoted from brent149:I get it was never meant for production, but it was a working game that he clearly spent a lot of time on. Sure it wasn't cheap either to create.
It wasn't a working game.
Quoted from YKpinballer:I know another businessman who loved to do all his dealings behind closed doors one on one. I don't know of many honest businesses that run that way. Why would Bill not be able to say publicly what is happening?
Well why not ask Bill? I can't speak for internals of someone else's business
Quoted from DCFAN:Was JPoop making this game as a tribute to his ego?
Come on dude, you're not 11 years old right? "JPOOP" is super childish.
Quoted from rosh:As far as the ball search timer, sound like that is in there now, but as Jim indicated he had turned it off during development and I'm sure none of the 'volunteers' knew to turn it on or possibly even how.
Editing the code at the show just wasn't a reasonable thing to attempt. Besides, I really had my own booth to man as well. If I had the game a day beforehand then that would be something different.
Quoted from Concretehardt:I don't want to hurt john physically, but I would like him to mortgage his house, liquidate his retirement and get a real job (or 2) and payback every dime he screwed people out of.
there's always a black market for un-needed organs, and don't they still pay out for blood plasma?
Jpoop is childish. I prefer Jflop or Jstolemymoney etc..,
Whatever John is now called, he earned the names.
Quoted from Concretehardt:I don't want to hurt john physically, but I would like him to mortgage his house, liquidate his retirement and get a real job (or 2) and payback every dime he screwed people out of.
I'd like that as option #1
Option #2 well I cannot talk about that without being banned, but it involves several prison gangs. 
Quoted from hank527:And yet people on here still defend him. It's unbelievable to me. John P is the worst thing that has happened to pinball in the last 20 years. Maybe ever. Though he did kill almost any new pinball startup that request money up front without a working prototype.
I cannot stand the man.
He also seriously fumbled pinball 2000, and peeved gomez. Probably why stern wouldn't touch him.
download (1).jpg
Toronto, ON
Quoted from markmon:Editing the code at the show just wasn't a reasonable thing to attempt.
You could have asked the programmer to help.
Quoted from jarjarisgod:This leads to the most important question this thread has seen in some time... Will you be at Expo?
Tell you what, if I'm not at Expo this year then shit has gone seriously south. 
And the Kiss game was total smoke an mirrors. It was all foamcore, if you touched it wrong it would have fallen apart. It was a giant waste of time, colossally stupid, but it was far, far from an actual real game. Still, it was dumb.
Quoted from jwilson:You could have asked the programmer to help.
No. It's not about asking for help. At the trade show isn't the place to be editing code.
Can we stop harassing the volunteers for not doing more? They did plenty. Shit was broken 7 ways to Sunday, but it's all on John, not the people busting ass at the last minute share even the littlest something with folks.
Quoted from markmon:Come on dude, you're not 11 years old right? "JPOOP" is super childish.
I am sorry "dude", but the guy is dead to the hobby and no longer deserves my respect or anyone else's.
Also, your "childish" comment is a violation of Pinside rules.
Quoted from Aurich:Can we stop harassing the volunteers for not doing more?
I'm not trying to attack the volunteers. John is clearly to blame for it being a disaster. But now Popaduik is out and Pintasia is in, so the questions are about their planning and operations.
I'm asking questions about the decisions made that lead to what most consider a fairly underwhelming reveal - it just seems like no one really thought what the result would be and it was more important to have the game at specifically the NW show. There's a bunch of shows coming up this summer - why this show that was only a couple of weeks in the future? The game was clearly not ready to be seen and could have used more time. Maybe it was a reaction to the outrage at Popaduik's email? Get the game out in public as quickly as possible?
That informs the general decision-making going on with Pintasia - it seems very haphazard, off-the-cuff, with poor communication, secret agreements, bad PR handling and a lot of reliance on volunteer labour. It's not really inspiring confidence in the new regime.
Now the topic is next steps - where's the game now and what's the plan?
Wow, what a mess. I feel bad now for the people trying yo make things right, Seems like no matter what, they will be the bad guys.
"We want to see a flipping prototype" "why is nothing being revealed?"
So they give you a flipping prototype. Which SEEMED like what people wanted. But apparently it's "not done enough" and "too slow". Not sure what was really expected when you had seen nothing but art for years. We have seen more in a month than we have in 3 years. That is exciting to me, but I don't have any $$ invested. if I could have afforded it, it might have been different.
I am not sure why anyone would want to take this project over at this point, but at least someone has. Can't we give them at least a chance?
Chris
Quoted from jwilson:I'm not trying to attack the volunteers. John is clearly to blame for it being a disaster. But now Popaduik is out and Pintasia is in, so the questions are about their planning and operations.
I'm asking questions about the decisions made that lead to what most consider a fairly underwhelming reveal - it just seems like no one really thought what the result would be and it was more important to have the game at specifically the NW show. There's a bunch of shows coming up this summer - why this show that was only a couple of weeks in the future? The game was clearly not ready to be seen and could have used more time. Maybe it was a reaction to the outrage at Popaduik's email? Get the game out in public as quickly as possible?
That informs the general decision-making going on with Pintasia - it seems very haphazard, off-the-cuff, with poor communication, secret agreements, bad PR handling and a lot of reliance on volunteer labour. It's not really inspiring confidence in the new regime.
Now the topic is next steps - where's the game now and what's the plan?
Quoted from hank527:Jpoop is childish. I prefer Jflop or Jstolemymoney etc..,
Whatever John is now called, he earned the names.
Flopadouche!!!
Quoted from SilverUnicorn:"We want to see a flipping prototype" "why is nothing being revealed?"
So they give you a flipping prototype. Which SEEMED like what people wanted. But apparently it's "not done enough" and "too slow".
That's a fair statement. They did give people a flipping game and we've been crapping on it. That part, I agree, is not great.
The problem is, people expected "flipping game" to be like, say, The Hobbit or The Big Lebowski where the rules are thin and some stuff might not work, but it's playable. MG is missing major components, none of the magnets worked, they had it on 1-ball play and no ball search so they couldn't put glass on it, purposely weak flippers and a bunch of ball hangups.. It was significantly disabled, and on top of that, tons of people were claiming the game was "almost ready for production" and "it's 95% complete".
So, yeah, you're right - people got what they asked for and weren't happy. But they were promised something more. It's not the volunteer's fault but you can understand the reaction.
Quoted from jwilson:You could have asked the programmer to help.
Shoulda, coulda, woulda. if they had, someone would say "Omg, how dare you ask unpaid vendors for help". it's a no win situation at this point. that said, I'm glad to see an air of reconciliation - at least from some.
disclaimer: the statement above is my opion and should not be taken as fact. I am not an investor of Zidware or Pintasia.
As someone who played it, I can say that it wasn't the flippers that were weak, it was the Mylar overlay that made the ball very sluggish. The ball was like surfing a Mylar wave. During the video I shot you can see the ball move sideways about an inch before it got the flippers, this was due to a ripple forming in the Mylar before the ball made it to the flipper. In all honesty if the overlay had been uniformly attached to the playfield, it would have played much faster.
Quoted from 27dnast:Maybe I'm just completely out of touch, but this notion of creating ultra-rare, super-duper-crazy-insane special, machines is weird. Whatever happened to pressing start and justing playing games?
That's because up until all of these boutique scams, apparently the only person that collected pinball machines on Pinside was me.
Oh my bad, I was the only person not ashamed to admit it. 
Quoted from jwilson:You could have asked the programmer to help.
I didn't see a "Monday Morning Quarterback" on the Pintasia employee roster - you should throw your name in the ring.
Quoted from jwilson:I'm asking questions about the decisions made that lead to what most consider a fairly underwhelming reveal - it just seems like no one really thought what the result would be and it was more important to have the game at specifically the NW show. There's a bunch of shows coming up this summer - why this show that was only a couple of weeks in the future?
Legal action is in motion, it was show something now for the hail mary pass before everything goes kaput.
From the little I've gathered, I think even people involved were expecting a more functioning machine from John.
Quoted from Kerry_Richard:OK... we haven't heard from Bill lately. Any update on the next step?
Good question. Whats the next move.
Quoted from Concretehardt:I don't want to hurt john physically, ...........
Sure you do, sure you want to hurt him physically. Many here want to hurt little johnny physically. You and many others choose not to follow through and hurt him physically because you have a good set of ethics. Those ethics are what separate you from Jflop and the vaporware shit show. Your ethics help you do the right things in your life. Little johnny's lack of ethics steam rolls all around him and treats all in his path like shit.
I congratulate you on your upstanding way of life. Jflop can live with his substandard life. Quite frankly he can take his low standards, low morals and his massive failure and go away. We don't need him nor do we want him anywhere near our beloved pinball.
Bye bye johnny/Jflop. That is until a bunch of people catch up to you and sue you silly. Then you are free to leave for good.
QSS
Sydney
Quoted from rai:3-4 years ago, John sold a game called MG to be built sometime circa 2013. Said game was limited to 13 copies making it uber rare, later he upped the number to 26 copies. He charged $16k for this limited edition game.
A short time later he sold another games called BHZA in slightly higher numbers 99 later increased to 124, at a price of $10k. Later the theme and title of the game was changed to RAZA, this was also supposed to be completed around 2013.
Later John added another game AIW to be completed, accepted deposits and payments on that too.
All during this time, John kept everything as hidden as possible, said he was working super hard and the pins were going go be great.
Also during this time, John made a Kiss pin which he had no license for, did not collect any deposits for, so he used all the other money collected to fund this game.
John from time to time would show a few bits and pieces of the game, but never anything as finished as a white wood or even a basic alpha prototype.
Many customers began to get worried or frustrated when 2013 came and went and no games were delivered, ditto 2014. To dissuade people from seeking legal means of getting refunds from John for breach of contract, failure to deliver. John had people post that they'd been to his workshop and the games were comming along well and were worth waiting for.
When this began to wear thin, John promised that at the 2014 Expo in October he would do a big reveal. Then at that expo John brought two totally empty cabinets. People freaked out.
So John promised he'd have real prototype reveals in Dec 2014 and January 2015 for MG and RAZA respectively. Predictably John showed nothing whatsoever.
People like myself said John was bluffing and he had nothing to show, while people like PDXmonkey said there were 95% complete prototypes and he'd played them and all was well, just taking longer than expected.
More time goes by, presumably dozens of people demand refund and/or start legal proceedings against John, John says he's working 14 hrs a day 7 days a week and is tired or perplexed that he's also getting hundreds of emails or texts or phone calls a day regarding the lack of progress. But things are still good.
Then maybe 3-4 weeks ago, John posts a letter saying he's completely broke, no one will get a refund and he's allowing an outside entity (shell) assume production of MG and that they can only proceed if you all (owners) agree not to sue anyone and any owners of RAZA and AIW should forget that, but can now get a MG for $16k (less what you have paid towards RAZA or AIW or MG) and that MG will no longer be a super rare game of 26 units but perhapse 199 and then an unlimited number after that.
People rush out an unfinished alpha prototype of MG to the NW show that has most features disabled, that is broken down most of the time at the show, that no one is able to even make a ramp shot except with glass off by hand, that has a laminate playfield that is totally warped or not stuck down properly.
I think that's this whole thread in a nutshell. Insiders like PDXMONKEY please correct anything I missed or was untruthful about.
Mods, can you just delete the remaining 14433 posts in this thread and replace it with this one?
Quoted from hank527:What are some other good Jpoopiedoopie names ?
Con Ponzidouche
As it stands, the idea that Pintasia can take over Johns disastrous pre-order pinball project by offering another pre-order pinball project is ridiculous.
The only way this project will succeed is if Pintasia turns up at XYZ Pinball show in 12 months with a number of finished, new in box Magic Girls to sell (and of course to give to those who have already paid). I pay my $10K and I walk away with a new Magic Girl. They do that, they will sell some games.
But that would require Pintasia to invest/risk alot more than $100K upfront. Based on the history of those behind Pintasia, I seriously doubt any more Pintasia money is going to risked for this project.
I was lucky enough to get a few very short balls on Magic Girl this weekend.
What surprised me in a nice way was the composure the two or three owners I saw come up to the game and talk with Bill.
Getting your first (and possibly last) turn on a game you paid 16K for and will probably never receive... would be a once in a lifetime experience I hope. If I was in their shoes I hope I could maintain at least half a smile looking at the what appears to be the dead end of the road.
IF Pintasia can pull it off, and get games manufactured somehow without money up front AND with John fighting off lawsuits... then great for them. I can't see many people throwing more money up front into this project. And that is not out of spite, the game is REALLY not finished as has been mentioned however many times up to this point.
The good news is if (I believe Ben Heck's?) statement that the largest BOM in pinball was sub 2K, Magic Girl at its worst should be ~$4.5-5K even in smallish quantities? (e.g. a batch of several hundred?). Assuming you have not gone crazy and done "custom everything".
At the end of the day yes magnets and ramps cost money, but it is not like there is a functioning waterfall made of gold and diamonds inside or anything.
So thank you to everybody who busted their butts bringing it to the show.
Here's hoping somone can scrape together a BOM that is not crazy, code can be funded to completion, the game is playtested to see if it works and is somewhat reliable, and maybe is even FUN, a manufacturer can be found... and THEN people will be able to enjoy it someday.
Quoted from markmon:No. It's not about asking for help. At the trade show isn't the place to be editing code.
Quoted from SunKing:if they had, someone would say "Omg, how dare you ask unpaid vendors for help". it's a no win situation at this point.
I believe Jim had offered to help and its as likely a setting or just uncommenting a few lines. Regardless, it is an insignificant item in the scheme of things.
Quoted from jwilson:The problem is, people expected "flipping game" to be like, say, The Hobbit or The Big Lebowski where the rules are thin and some stuff might not work, but it's playable.
It seemed to me the goal was to get the game into public to see if it was worth finishing. Since it was being 'expedited' to get it there, it should have recognized it was going to be less than some other 'reveals' we have seen like TBL, which had almost no rules, but you could shoot and get a good feel for the shots and the toys at least acted like they worked. MG by most accounts, was not ready to play a month ago, (there were no ramps for crying out loud), so it certainly was not going to be fully playable, but, it was playable enough for people to get a better sense of the game, the shots, etc. more so than anyone had in the past.
At this point some see the potential in the game, others don't see it and don't like it all, there was no chance it would have been universally loved or hated. However, at least Bill, and those with money on the line, now have a lot more info to help assess the situation.
Quoted from BC_Gambit:The good news is if (I believe Ben Heck's?) statement that the largest BOM in pinball was sub 2K, Magic Girl at its worst should be ~$4.5-5K even in smallish quantities? (e.g. a batch of several hundred?). Assuming you have not gone crazy and done "custom everything".
No idea what quote you're thinking of, but the largest BOM is definitely nowhere near sub 2K. 
Ben definitely didn't say that, because I know what the BOM on AMH was. (Not under $2K)
And John did go crazy with "custom everything". They'll have to work on that.
As far as reducing the BOM, wouldn't reducing it to the point needed to keep this pin on track also make it less attractive as a $16k pin? Pinheads willing to pay that much for a single pin would likely expect a lot of custom work, wouldn't they?
Quoted from VegasAlleycat:As far as reducing the BOM, wouldn't reducing it to the point needed to keep this pin on track also make it less attractive as a $16k pin? Pinheads willing to pay that much for a single pin would likely expect a lot of custom work, wouldn't they?
Right... The general view is that very few people want to pay $16k for a pin and those that do expect it to be a highly trimmed exclusive with very few made and as such it's been proven to be impossible to deliver at that price point without a financial loss... thus the talk about reducing BOM so that the pin can be sold for less.
Quoted from VegasAlleycat:As far as reducing the BOM, wouldn't reducing it to the point needed to keep this pin on track also make it less attractive as a $16k pin? Pinheads willing to pay that much for a single pin would likely expect a lot of custom work, wouldn't they?
Not really. For example, do you care if the game has Zidware flipper mechs or Bally filler mechs?
Question
Looking back on this it seems absurd to think John could make 20 of these for under $16k and make any money for himself. The question is how did the Captain Nemo gang pull that off and what was the final price?
I remember pulling for John saying if they could do it, John should be able to do it. The question is how did they do it?
Quoted from markmon:Not really. For example, do you care if the game has Zidware flipper mechs or Bally filler mechs?
As long as they aren't Zizzle mechs...
As vid said, most people /should/ care and what they should want is a standard mech so they know they can easily and inexpensively source rebuild kits.
The playfield owl, on the other hand, seems to not be something people want to be able to source easily and inexpensively.
Quoted from JosiahCox:This thread has jumped the shark and had slowly devolved into name calling, finger pointing and speculation based on opinions.
That's what keeps me coming back in here every few days.
Quoted from BC_Gambit:The good news is if (I believe Ben Heck's?) statement that the largest BOM in pinball was sub 2K
Hmm I know of games much bigger then that.
Rotterdam
Bill, any news on anything?
I am tired of reading everyones opinion..but one has to come back here everytime for news..
Next thing you are reading JPOOP and JFLOP bullshit over here,real cool guys..can we get over that now?
It's Always nice to hear from you,as it is kind of our only hope,could everybody just stop posting and wait for Bill to post something? or pintasia?
Send him a PM!
I'd recommend he starts a new thread anyway.
Quoted from pinballrockstar:Bill, any news on anything?
I am tired of reading everyones opinion..but one has to come back here everytime for news..
Next thing you are reading JPOOP and JFLOP bullshit over here,real cool guys..can we get over that now?
It's Always nice to hear from you,as it is kind of our only hope,could everybody just stop posting and wait for Bill to post something? or pintasia?
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