I was there for most of Saturday and the few times I poked my head out into the hall it was turned off and was drawing seemingly cursory interest. I gave it a good five minute once over and thought it LOOKED pretty cool. I saw the display for a few minutes in the morning before it was shut down. I didn't see a single ball play through without error though, so, whatever. I don't think I saw more than four or five people at a time (including me when I was out there) around the machine all day, but it's not like I was staking it out.

Oz had a bigger crowd around it. /boggle

EDIT: By the way, that shitty quality video on the previous page absolutely does not do the game justice.

EDIT 2: Visually that is. That game play was better than I saw it put together all day.

Yes!

Yeti, I hate to see you get into defensive mode, especially since you are quite admired and respected around here....step back a bit and remember the narrative for those outside the project: Money has been taken for 3 games and people are still kind of in the dark about what the endgame is here. People are allowed to be critical without getting a "Hey why don't YOU guys do something for pinball?" guilt trip. Do you know what we do for the good of pinball? We play. We collect. We restore & repair. We teach others & get others interested. We BUY....and it's the buyers who've had a party in keeping pinball alive that have been taken advantage of here. The majority of us have jobs/lives and cannot commit our lives to creating pinball...and we don't deserve to be reprimanded for that. Pinball needs creators & supporters...don't shit on the supporters, please. Creators, especially in light of recent circumstances - are not beyond critique.

While I suppose it's commendable in theory that Bill, PDX and others are trying to do something...it still isn't really clear what that "something" is. Sure we can commend PDXMonkey for spending his money and time getting this game to the show...but that doesn't make the endgame clearer. I honestly don't know why PDXMonkey has devoted so much time and money to this. I don't know if Bill has a sustainable plan to get this game manufactured. Sorry if people aren't unanimously cheerleading - but they just went through 4 years of bullshit with a delusional maniac...forgive people's skepticism that the remaining behind-the-scenes supporters are still delusional in their goals to save this project.

Oooph. Again, please step out of the bubble and have some empathy for those who've been affected by this. Remember less than 20 people have money on this game. 100+ have money on RAZA and AIW. What do they deserve? Always remember that as this experiment rolls on.

Thats what I have been waiting for. I will however keep waiting, and let you know through my owned pins profile.

Ah hell. I can't stop reading this thread, so I may as well throw in 1 and a half cents.

Nope, no skin in the game. Not because I'm "smarter" or "holier than thou" about the prepay thing. I'm just less patient. I pony up my money, I want my machine now. I'm 2 years into the pins, so maybe its the newb factor. I need my fix now. I don't have quite the disposable income as some, so that may be a factor as well. But I'll get there. I certainly could see myself "prepaying" if I had 5x the income. If 9k meant the same as 2k right now, I could entertain the idea because I could have my "now" and "later". I don't see myself as having the right to judge anyone for their reasons to prepay (or their disposable income), or to be staunchly against it or anything in between. Comes off kinda "nanny nanny boo boo" no matter how you serve it up at times like these. Largely, I don't think it's intended that way, but I definitely understand it being received that way.

While I think the man is crazy, Bill definitely gets a thumbs up from me. Heck, he's doing something other than posting on pinside. Of course he doesn't have a ton of cash out there yet- would you? He isn't a charitable martyr. As someone said, he stepped in late in the game to see if this IP could be saved, regardless of his motivation, he is trying to move it forward. If he's doing it to see if he can make a buck, who cares? Its not charity. He certainly doesn't see "a gold mine no one else can see", so he has to be partially doing it because of pinball or the people in the shitter with him as Zidware customers? But at the same time, no way should he (I wouldn't, nor would you) start shelling out money to buy Zidware or assume the debt to the vendors... blah blah (I totally agree their best bet is getting this done as I am not hating, I hope they get paid, but that's all Bill right now- they know this). IF he came to the conclusion that he could operate in the black eventually, maybe he would/will, but that's for the man who is actually doing something to decide. I would doubt it after the bulk of the comments from this weekend. Not a ton of public support for the effort. I mean, cmon, what did anyone expect? There was plenty of upfrontness from the guys that it was going to be a flipping work in progress and they just wanted to show some effort. Machine not near done. But it was "to the show come hell or high water". They got that done. And have taken a ton of grief over it. I think they delivered exactly what they said they would, and that's a HUGE positive. Lot of teamwork from people here to get that done. Pretty awesome to see folks pull together for any reason.

And hey, if you have skin in the game, do what you and your family think is best. Just make your own decision for your own reasons. Don't be swayed by peoples opinions. Go with the gut. Sue if ya gotta sue. Clock is definitely ticking. I would in my situation, but it is not my place to tell you what you should do in your unique situation. Throw more money at it if Bill comes back with a business model or proposal. Or don't. It's up to you. I can't imagine having money on the line, because my "opinion" sways with the wind when I'm reading this. "Give him a chance...." "Sue that bastard before the money is gone..." and back and forth..... I cant even fathom what it must be like to have $$ on the line. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Go with the gut.

I know making a pinball machine is expensive, but I am really confused as to where the money went. If this prototype was filled with a bunch of unique features and toys, I could undertand how you'd blow through all that money. But it's pretty bare bones.

Then throw in the fact that he wasn't paying for the programming, wasn't paying for the artwork, and wasn't paying other vendors. Was he just paying himself a 6-figure salary to sit around and play arts and crafts a few hours a week?

Correction: John Popadiuk has turned this into a real "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario.

Am I reading the same thread as everyone else? I don't feel the tone of posts are being negative to the new "minions", the negativity is still pointing to Jpop as it should. People paid and expect something tangible in return, like a pinball machine in their home.

Ever see the movie "Tucker"? There's a scene in that where they're showing the prototype for the first time, and it won't run and has no suspension. They barely squeak through the showing - for that at least they could just put it on the stage to look pretty.

Magic Girl unfortunately doesn't have that luxury - it represents $1 million of people's money, so yeah, people have some pretty lofty expectations. Also, the teams who busted their ass to get it ready really hyped it up, like once people saw and played it, they'd understand it was worth the wait. That was a bad decision in a long string of bad decisions dating back to the beginning.

I think people have gotten a lot of credit - Zombie Yeti hasn't stopped getting constant compliments since he showed up for one, and tons of people have thanked the volunteers. But let's face it, that midnight oil burning wasn't enough - this game needed to WOW people, and someone should have realized at some point that was basically asking the impossible.

I'm not even the worst nay-sayer here. I've been pretty quiet since the game left Chicago. Answer me this - does what they have at the show represent the kernel of a $16,000 game to you? That's really asking a lot, and from my perspective the people running this aren't making good decisions so far.

No, he *stopped* paying the artists, vendors, etc. It's pretty apparent for the first few years he was paying people.

I'm glad you took it to the show. Kudos for your efforts.

As far as the single ramp shot goes... I'm amazed *anyone* could hit it as it seems to have some awful rotating "impediment"
almost directly in front of the entrance. I know these things are supposed to add a random element to the gameplay but I never liked the lamp either in TOTAN. I assume some people must like smacking the ball into these things but it just seems like a lazy way to put more junk on the PF...

If it had another ramp shot maybe this would be ok but that impediment, magical as it must be, is a turn off (IMHO)

Will Zidware go bankrupt?

Who owns the IP if Zidware goes belly up?

Will John Popadiuk be a paid consultant for Pinasia?

Will depositors have to sign off on their right of litigation for x years? Can they even do that?

How many thousands of dollars more will RAZA and AIW depositors have to foot to get in on MG?

Who's doing the MG software?

Who's finishing the MG hardware?

Who will be the MG manufacturer?

What is the MG timeline? How many years more until I receive my game?

What after-sale support will there be for MG depositors?

What are the chances that RAZA and AIW will never be produced?

Are there any refunds if I want out?

We need some place to discuss. We need some place to vent about john Popadiuk robbing us. This thread holds the history , good and bad , and if there is a resolution I would like to see it here. Ymmv. But if we close it another will open in its place.

At least this disaster is contained to one thread. Killing this thread will create tons of new threads competing for attention, half of which will get out of control and killed by moderators. Keeping it as one big, contained tire fire is the best idea.

The tone I was getting from the posts was that most people think the game is extremely underwhelming in its current state, which given that it's even more alpha than anyone was letting on, makes sense.

Yet somehow because people aren't shooting rainbows up everyone's asses, you're going to take your ball and go home? I think if people are going to be in this game, they need to take criticism. Quite a bit of it very constructive, like maybe shoot a high quality video before the show opens, get out front on the narrative. Or change the lighting to be more flattering to the artwork. I don't see those comments as shitting on anyone.

I won't get into ZY's blowup. It sounds like he's going through a tough personal time so I wouldn't take anything he's saying as gospel.

I commend the guys who busted ass on the game to get it to even this state, they're definitely the true believers. But it's the true believers who had blinders on and got taken by Popaduik the slick snake oil salesman in the first place. The true believers are always the easiest marks. It's healthy to be skeptical.

Context is your friend.

Read what I said and who I said it to. Empathy has been given in spades by bill and the rest - the end game is to make people whole on ALL games. The goal is the OWNERS of these machines.

I made it clear that any of my profit sharing in the long run (based on previous contracts and licensing) would be given and split to all buyers to incentivize the larger run on MG to make it more plausible. I don't give a shit about profit and neither do the players bringing this closer to a finish line.

The ENTIRE goal is to get games made and delivered to the owners... This was the first step - get MG together and see where it stands. Somewhere that's been lost and the people without skin in this just keep pissing on it. Don't defend them as victims - no skin - they are offering NO solutions.

If anyone here thinks I'm being unfair by trying to help and defending & offering support those trying to work out a plausible deal, fine - 'like that's you're opinion, man'

I've said endlessly how thankful I am for the kind words and support - it's been eye opening... But the past few weeks here trying to pop in and add perspective and levity has done nothing but whittle away at my enjoyment of this venue and my hope in the human race.

A little reminder - and clarity will come soon: John is not the one who will benefit here - his name is mud.

This ride was far worse and far more stressful from the inside - trust me on that. I'm not trying to compare to those with money wrapped up here. And I hope the level headed minds understand my frustration and dont take it personal. I'm done here on pinside - I'm not used to working in a vacuum, I'm a team player - but I've also never been successful surrounding myself with negativity and petty attacks. This isn't about critiques it's about optimism.

Anyone who actually knows me or my approach to my work could have seen this a mile away I'm sure.

Life is bigger than this situation - go hug your loved ones and step away. That's what I'm doing

I wish nothing but the best for all.
Thanks - it's been real! ZY

I agree, not sure what up ZY's butt. People seem to love his art on the game, but the gameplay let's face it sucks (I said it). I'm not sure if ZI has ever played any pinball games (seriously) a lot of people have not, I meet people every day who have not played a pin in 20+ years, so if he thinks this prototype looks like it is a winner, I don't know what to say. Plus he's not responsible for the state of the game, just let your work shine and play up John being the jerk that's better than lashing out at negative reviews of the gameplay, especially and until I see some good gmae play video and ramp shots, heck the ball has a hard time making it out of the shooter lane.

ZI gets all up on his high horse. If I were him, I'd be trying to distance myself as much as possible from John (and Zidware because as it stands its deader than fried chicken to quote 'Pulp Fiction').

Like I said like lots of people said, shoot a video, if you can't make a video (that's under your control) you don't have to show it breaking down 75 times or that the ball doesn't make the ramp shot except one time out of 20. You can shoot 2 hrs and show the best 2 minutes its under your control. Shoot a video of the game playing not breaking down and then you have something to crow about. Right now there is nothing to crow about. If it's impossible to make a video, good lord don't bring it to a show.

I must have said it 5 times already, put your best foot forward. If the pin is breaking down every 3 minutes or is off half the day, that shows me its not ready to be shown. It was obviously rushed out the door to the show, what reason?

I'd rather hear it said, John ducked it up so its not possible for it to be shown in a working form. That would be better than to have it at the show and it's broken down half the time and no one can make the ramp shot, oh I forgot someone did with their hand, so ZY thinks that's acceptable and everyone should bow down to MG as being the best game of all time?

Finally, I will say go look at Wooly thread, see that game, then look at this game. Tell me they are in the same league? They're not even the same sport. Wolly is a true playable game/prototype. MG is a pretty object that is not remotely playable in its current state.

You completely misread what I said. Let me clarify.

I didn't say it was a "theory" that they are helping. I said it's "commendable in theory". That means I respect the amount of time and money they're putting into this project...however, it's still completely unclear that it's salvageable...and it's completely unclear that the 100's of customers in on the other games will get their money back. PDX & Bill's endgame is unclear. The motives for bringing the game to the show are unclear. So, I could cheerlead ...but if goals aren't attainable, what good would my cheerleading do? If there was absolute clarity that this thing IS salvageable and all could be made whole...I'd be cheerleading like crazy - but c'mon Ice, give me a little credit...based on our forum-fights about this project over the past few years, who saw it clearly from the start? I've been a voice of reason and logic...consistently. That's what I'm still bringing to the table here.

I've always been on the side of the customers here....that's where I still am.

My request to those who are still believing in this project - please thicken your skin. Remember who the real victims are...it's not you. Criticism won't stop till a clear plan is presented. Enough of the "screw you guys, I'm goin' home" attitude. Enough with these threats...you're only hurting those with money in limbo by playing the victim card. If you have a REAL PLAN...your success will be proof enough and you can tell me to go F myself then....and I gladly will if it results in all the customers getting what belongs to them.

Wow. This sums up the last 1000 posts well. If we all were more skeptical, John would have never gotten money and moved into his current office.

On the 100k Bill spent. I see this as Bill probably has his travel and time in this. All three wages and time of his team as well. I'm surprised the figure isn't a little higher

The people who keep saying what's the rush to bring it to the show are the same people who said there is no game, there is no code - there is nothing there. I think the game was brought to show people where things are now. People asked for the transparency that john didn't give and now we have it. Skilled people have seen it and worked on it and now can help figure out how to move forward. The reveal also has convinced a few people to hold off from suing which was one of the reasons it was rushed out.

I think what yeti is saying is what is with the anger and negativity towards people not named jpop? A few guys are trying to see if they can make this thing work out. They acknowledge that it isn't going to be easy to do, but at the very least, their efforts have shown us where things stand now. Things aren't good, but it is not the fault of the guys who are currently working with the hope of making a go of it.

This is what I took away from it. The game is in what I would refer to as a "proof of concept", which is polite way of saying, "we want to see if you would be willing to fork out money for this thing."

Anyone who thinks the game is close to being handed off for production...it isn't. Not even close. The only thing that could possibly be moved straight into production is the cabinet, which is probably the single most awesome thing there is.

This game is dead. Period. Don't try to tell me Pintasia is just trying to help by getting you something over nothing. How are they helping? By reselling you the game again
essentially by raising the price and forcing you to pay for johns losses. dont be fooled.

I went through the WOZEL thing by myself as far as I am concerned. My situation is mine. No regrets on doing it either.

You know this for certain why?

You know this for certain why?

I'm not being negative, I'm honestly asking how you know these things.

I'm a little late to the party.....please tell me that the Zidware pinball design school is still a going concern. I want to sign up

I think this proves even more that there was in fact no game, no code, no working ramps not working mechinisms. The game is a shell, John couldn't post that on a video of this so he didn't. John couldn't bring that to a show so he didn't. John is a fruit loop but he knows enough not to show a 50% working game.

I do not have money invested in any of the 3 pins. Saying that, people like myself are very interested in seeing what happens with MG. I like what I see from a potential standpoint based on the prototype stage it's in.

If it ever gets to production and plays as good as it looks, I'd purchase it for roughly $8k or so. If it helped make people already invested whole, I'd gladly pay an extra $1k.

Not sure if it's in the works to make more pins than necessary though to satisfy original investors.

That was not a knock on you my friend. I consider my decisions mine, as well as the consequences. Sorry to ruffle your feathers.

Holy crap dude, would you STOP misquoting me!?! I never said he had ulterior motives...I said I didn't understand the motives for bringing it to this show! Was it just to show that the game was away from John's hands? Was it to get new sales? I honestly don't know what purpose the game being at the show was. I think it's COOL - as a spectator - but what does it accomplish in the big picture? That's all I was saying.

Wow, now just flat out wishing me (and others) ill? F you, dude...I've never come at you like that with the Zidware games.

Thankfully your predictions are always wrong.

Bringing it to the show gives pre-owners some hope and might make them more patient possibly. Without JPOP they could reverse engineer the prototype, have a baseline BOM and then make adjustments with the folks who helped design game in the first place.

Ugh....everyone loves it when you're in crazy drunk attack mode...

Not same deal. I said 2020 and I'm not too far off. Game still isn't done yet....so.... Phil was a minor situation, and it's over and irrelevant. TBL still had multiple fully manufactured playable protos with fully functioning toys travel THE WORLD for people to play. Tell me how it's even REMOTELY the same deal.

Can't tell if you're talking about the game or threatening me.

Drunk.

Liar. I was IN ON WOZ as a Pre-orderer! I dropped out because I didn't like it once I played it. I'm allowed to have an opinion...that opinion doesn't = "crapping on it for 4 years". Regardless of my feelings about WOZ, I've always contended that JJP was on a COMPLETELY different level than Zidware. I always commended them for having a factory, a business plan, and employees...vs. John's business plan of not having a business plan.

FFS....NO ONE IS CRAPPING ON BILL!!!!!

The Pintasia plan is not clear and people are QUESTIONING and CRITICIZING it. That is not "crapping on"...it's not personal! As far as I can tell, most people like Bill....but just can't see how this is going to work unless he presents a clearer plan.

I never said anything about whats the rush? I was hoping the game would be made and shipped to customers since day one.