are you saying the first letter sent out by jpop is null & void?
or
there are 2 letters now that are valid & required for negotiation & signature:
1.) jpop document, and
2.) pintasia document

Question for the pinside attorneys:

Let's assume at least SOME people will file suit against jpop (some have already?)

If he's as broke as many would have us beleive, that alone might push him into bankruptcy....

In that likely event, wouldn't any transfer or sale of assets to another entity be significantly impacted? It seems like this could likely fall into the definition of Fraudulent Conveyance?

Isn't it likely THIS (and not the whole "we can't have jpop DISTRACTED by lawsuits") is really whats driving them to try to force people to sign away their right to sue?

second one supercedes the first labnip. Are you in on one of the machines? Did we miss you in our communications? PM me and I will get you copies. I believe someone posted here.

I applaud Bill for putting this together as quickly as he has and hope Pintasia manages to exceed goals and expectations.

I do wonder what the court's views might be regarding the transferring of assets from an apparently insolvent John Popadiuk / Zidware to newly formed Pintasia.

Bill,

I'm curious why you chose to save MG over RAZA? Both are near prototype ready, yes?

Just read threw most of the thread this weekend and my goodness what a freaking mess. I really hope things work out for all involved parties one way or another .

I'm looking forward to the reveal at the NW Show and more communications from Bill over the next few weeks. Then I'll make my decision.

11,001, what a weekend!

If they are using what was already in place code wise a year ago, then you should be able to do a lot more than just cycle the ball around.

Bill (Pintasia) is not making RAZA owners *whole*, and we are the majority *shareholders* in the Zidware mess.

I will be calling my attorney today.

Well, at this point it's a waiting game for the show. I've said my opinion and we'll just have to see what happens.

Hopefully updates will continue.

Has anyone even talked to u yet from the new regime?

Oh, Ice has seen the books? He's seen an actual plan for manufacturing written down? I didn't know that. Please Pintasia, share this information will all of us. Talk is cheap, real cheap. As a matter of fact, it's free; not worth $1,000,000.

So far past unpaid Zidware vendors have been left holding the bag, along with us RAZA owners. Zidware is still 100% on the hook for this. Pintasia is not picking up any of the bad debt, but they are benefiting from all the work Zidware has done so far on MG using RAZA money. A couple shiny ramps get shown and suddenly everyone forgets about this?

oh wow, i did not think about that? showing off his zidware kiss pin, with working kiss animation lcd?
Ooooh this keeps on sucking harde man,jezus

See posts 10956 and 10981 on the previous page, they offer a little more information and suggest that more is coming soon.

I know those that have large sums of money plopped down as game buyers must be somewhat excited by seeing some progress and these ramps, but I implore you to try your best to keep your critical thinking glasses on. You really have it in your best interests to file a complaint with the state attorney and contact your lawyer TODAY if you have not already done so.

It seems very obvious as someone looking from the outside in (and given my past of being in your similar shoes for Predator) that there are a few key individuals involed which are motivated mainly by personal desire to hedge their potential losses. They may have their heart in the right place but their heads are also. Many of these guys are rich and savvy businessmen. Research their history to get a better understanding of whom you are dealing with.

WC, PDX (he paid for the current ramp molds is my understanding), and a few others are bank rolling this current short term effort but they also have the most to possibly gain. Worst case scenario for them is they will now be walking away with the 3? prototypes in a more completed form when everything else crashes and burns. This is really the only true asset that zidware has of any value at this time.

It is also obvious that there is no real plan in place to prevent zidware and Jpop from declaring bankruptcy and as soon as that occurs then all other efforts become just more of the dog and pony show.

Thinking realistically.

1. Even if this game is the GOAT, it will never be worth the crazy price tag they have put on it. It has zero "rare" collectibility at 199.
2. No offer with a request to remove all ability to sue is EVER looking out for your protection as a customer. They are merely holding you hostage with the threat of something 'possibly' or seal your fate with nothing. Think long and hard why ANYONE would ever present this offer in the first place and you have the real reason behind all their motives.
3. Making a prototype is the fun and easy part. Manufacturing games in the difficult, costly, and not fun part. There is no current manufacturer that is willing or able to make these games and if they did it will not be the custom hand tooled expectations you had as original buyers. This game is already such a mess of custom that even Stern would be unlikely to ever think about taking this on. So where would these EVER get made, by whom, and at what cost. It really is not feasible.
4. 16k!!!??? WTF? Seriously! Start doing the math yourself on this and you will quickly understand that you are still getting hosed. They realize you are screwed and taking advantage of that leverage to toss a WAG and see what sticks.
5. Their current motives are squarely aligned with their own personal desires of MG and they are giving the majority of people already screwed (RAZA buyers) the biggest short of all. All caveats of their language continue to be geared in this direction.
6. Jpop and Pintasia claim that all the money is gone, yet based on the photos from yesterday, he is still occupying his 4k per month state of the art shop. In other words, you are still being lied to. These huslters will continue to lie and string you along based on emotion and desire to get a game you have dreamt about and already potted in. They are playing off this emotion and ramps should not be enough. At minimum they should have all the books completely open for you to see (This is what will happen in bankruptcy, they are trying to circumvent that and remove assets now, so seems only right that they also provide you the books in full right now).
7. All prototypes and equipment that leaves the current studio will never return and easily evaporate. This is the reality and no bankruptcy proceeding is going to be able to force them to return the assests or spend any amount of time looking for them.

Good luck to all. I highly suggest you take action now to put things in motion that have the best chance of benefiting you (or at least mitigating as much of your loss as possible). These guys are already taking actions to mitigate their losses and they have had the benefit of a couple month headstart (likely an illegal headstart after jpop files bankruptcy this week).

Lol,did you just call me an armchair quarterback?
I think you guys will pull it off,everybody is just so damn mad and fingerpointing at this stage,give it a couple of days..every armchair quarterback on pinside will calm down in a while.
MG's faith lies in your hands and thus ours,but people like to scream a bit when they just lost their ass and have a fight all weekend with their wives,you dig?

I myself am pretty happy my wife did not murder me over the weekend,(i admit i kept myself away from overhangs and dangerous edges when the wife was around)I will never , ever hear the end of this from her.(which is way worse than not owning a zidware pinball)

I got in touch with pintasia over the weekend through pinside pm and they asked me to send over confirmation of the unpaid invoices and what i worked on, as they were unaware of the problem. I gave them a quick update summary of what i worked on during my time there and have sent all the detailed info over this morning. I also sent a pm to wcbrandes pinside account. I'm waiting now for a reply.

I'd just like to re-iterate my earlier comments that i'm not looking to cause trouble and tried to support the original projects for as long as i could, anyway i could, i just want to paid up for what i did and for what my company worked on to be acknowledged. Almost going bankrupt in the process along with other things was not easy to get over

John Popaduik caused me and my family 'great harm' and still refuses to apologise

What

I also get the feeling this is just the same as JPop has been doing the past years.
Show some nice things and everyone thinks the game is finished and almost produced.

I'm happy the project is not dead yet and really wish there'll be a solution and the games will be produced, but part of me also thinks the project should just be cancelled as I don't think anyone will be happy and truely enjoy these games if they ever get produced. Just too many bad memories ?

And basically - how far further are we now that ramps are ready ? Ok there's maybe a playable prototype.
But still no-one to manufacture and to program rules. Same thinking as JPop 4 years ago - Once the game is designed I only need a programmer and someone to assemble it.
That's the hardest part.. Now there's a new company but no guarantees the game will be made in 2 or 4 years and if it'll run out of money it's just more money spent towards a dream that was not realistic from the beginning..

These suggestions are not in the contract.

well there was an option at some point that if buyers wanted to build their own with John and Ben (ha!) they could for an extra $1k. Maybe buyers can pay $1k less to build their own, on their own? Of course $15k for a pinball kit seems very unappealing.

There's also the option of finding a contract manufacturer (they build various products all the time). Of course something as complicated as a pinball machine, you'd have to hire a guy to effectively help setup the assembly line, and then show workers at each stage how to assemble. We aren't talking about stuffing pcb's here.

You know, this could happen, but they aren't my enemy. If they get a "Wizard Blocks" out of this, I still get nothing. Was always going to get nothing, because of John.

I think the risk of failure of this new deal is still EXTREMELY high. Probably 90%. But what difference does it make to me to wait 2 weeks? Nothing.

I'm not going to pay for ramps. If someone is spending thousands of their own money trying to get a prototype, then they did more work than me to make it happen.

As I mentioned some pages back, Partec is the likely suspect here when it comes to assembly.

Is Pintasia still going to uphold the whole "if you put your game on public display, you void your warranty?"

They suggest that more is coming soon. They haven't even had time to figure out what it'll cost to make the games yet, get an estimate for assembly, or determine if it'll be feasible. So, no rush to sign anything right now. In retrospect, they probably should have sent out an introduction letter and surveyed everyone's intentions by phone rather than try to do it with a hasty contract. The next 2-3 weeks should be interesting.

yeah, this caused a lot of drama.

I'm just glad this NW show is so close. Whatever is going to happen will happen very soon.

In short...

It means 2 weeks more time for assets to disappear from Zidware.
It means 2 weeks more time for Jpop to get the head start on getting books in order to make sure all money disappears (keep in mind he now has help from business savvy people).
It means less chance for you to mitigate personal loss.

On the other hand, if this is alreayd a write off for you then it likely means lieelt edifference to you.

I personally would want to make things as difficult for Jpop as possible as he has lied and stolen from all of you.

I Must have missed that. Looks like a pretty applicable place, they seem to already do wiring harnesses. If the cabinet company can pre-apply decals, that's done. The hardest part is the playfield, and I can imagine a contract manufacturer being able to handle that as well (but would need a really clear layout of where all the parts go, and possibly in multiple layers).
http://www.partec-inc.com/cableharness.htm

Partec assembles all the Raw Thrills games.

I know John was talking to Partec about assembly. That was who he was referring to when he would speak of having *a manufacturing facility all ready to go* to assemble his machines.

Obviously that didn't happen, but I would put that more on John than Partec

I would think all of John's failed deals (JJP/Stern/Partec/anyone else) could be revisited. John is impossible to work with, and probably unwilling or unable to pay what needed to be paid.

wcbrandes:We are not going to commit to anything here yet. I am not the one who pissed anyone's money away and I need to bridge and talk to all the 17 or so people who paid this much for the game in the first place. Once they are satisfied (no one else) with what can be done we will then be bringing MG to a more palpable price. I have had a month and need more time but there will be a MG that competes and Pintasia's profits from these will then be circled around to all those down the line on different titles to make them whole as well. All I can do is try my best.

That is finally some positive vibes,all buyers are hyperventilating in a plastic bag all weekend

Sorry to bother any of you... but was following this thread. Missed out on 3600!! messages -> What is the news in one sentence??

"Wait 2 weeks" .

Normally it costs 1 million dollars to design a game to get it to production

If people are owed a million dollars pintasia should pay them out and start again

Everyone made whole and then take the license and make the games with or without John

As long as people are made whole, I am sure they won't mind.

You forgot PPS who could presumably make CC or MB or AFM at prices that are half of $16K

And likely, the new guys know $16K is high, but they need to assume the loss, if the average person is given credit of $8k then the other $8k can go towards BOM and assembly. In other words, they are $16k pins in name only, but no one will be paying that much. I'm talking new money. This Classic edition at $9-$10k would be the real price if there was not the assumed liability for old deposits.

That said, I'm wishing the project good luck going forward, and suggest cutting John out of the future, and that everyone boycott anythig done by John in the future.

I don't think the Partec deal was a *fail*, it was simply a no-go. I'm pretty sure John owes them no money as no assembly ever took place (or precious little). Even if he does owe them a bit of money, that could easily be cleared up, I would think.

This is disgusting. Where's the human element in all of this? Is Jpop a robot or something? At least man up and apologize for your mistakes. Again applejuice, glad you were able to overcome this hard time and thanks for all your hard work.

Unfortunately, he's had plenty of time to do those things already. If a Pinsider had to pay for the ramp molds, the money's gone, whether spent, wasted, or worse. So, IMHO there is no mitigating our personal losses, more than a few pennies on the dollar. There's really no front of the line for us pre-order folks if it comes to bankruptcy, regardless of order status or legal action timing. That's why so many of us have like you said, already written it off. In the end we each only have our names and reputations or the humility of losing them. He's lost his already, so that's a burden he'll have to carry for the rest of his life. I'm going to wait and watch through June before making a decision. This whole thing is a great spectacle if nothing else. Like Rommy wrote few thousand posts ago, no one outside of Pinside would ever believe this story.

Keep up the amazing work. Finally seeing "something" is better than nothing and I definitely appreciate the time and effort you're putting into this regardless of what happens in the end, although the path does look a little clearer now .

Ok, read way too many posts as it is but I am not understanding how Pintasia get the assets ( prototypes ) from JPOP? They belong to Zidware?

Is there a deal behind the one revealed with John and Pintasia? Has John gifted them to Pintasia?

Sorry, just not understanding!

New wedding vows by pinsider wives should include:
HER: I promise not to get violent or vengeful at pinball money spent, be it pre-order, mods, etc...

Hmm... yeah,
Stern and JJP would just love to make a Zidware game even if the numbers were right?

The terms of the Zidware and pintasia deal have not been revealed.

This is kind of the big question. If Zidware declares bankruptcy, then the courts will decide who gets what, and something like any assets (prototypes, IP, etc.) would be auctioned off. So Zidware can't really tell Pintasia, "Hey you can have this just to get it off my back" if someone else may have been willing to pay $10k (or whatever) to buy it at a bankruptcy auction.

This would only happen if Zidware formally declared bankruptcy which they won't have to do on their own. But if they get sued for breach of contract (or whatever) and lose, then they will be forced to pay or declare bankruptcy, and that will trigger the whole public bankruptcy process and almost certainly unwind the Pintasia deal.

So this to me is the biggest reason not to get too excited about this deal. I just can't see Zidware not declaring bankruptcy, and in that case, I can't see this Pintasia deal not being unwound...

In this case, the new entity should pay something to acquire the assets. They obviously think the assets are worth something. This could be a 50-75% refund or full credit towards a MG.

Afterall while this costs some up front money, it removes the future credit aspect so they won't owe as many people discounted games.

Of course this whole project goes away if everyone wants refunds, but maybe they will settle on the down low (quiet) if just a handful of buyers want out. I mean if 20 people who are in for $6500 want out, that's $100,000 (at 75 cents on the dollar) surely the assets acquired are worth at least that much. And it's possible people might even be happy with 50 cents on the dollar at this point, figuring they don't want to spend anohter $9500 throwing more good money after bad.

Got cha.

Well, think I would want to know the terms of it if I was to throw more money at extreme high risk venture.

I would have said the same thing prior to MMR coming off of the Stern line. I've also heard that Gary Stern likes to say that they're a pinball manufacturing company. So, who knows?

While I applaud Bill and all the guys involved, I also see this delema. RAZA owners paid the lions share of money to John (I'm assuming $800K) and they are getting the short straw. *GETTING the short straw* there was no discussion or vote, the majority investors are paying to save the minority investors.

Not saying MG buyers deserve to get stiffed, but someone is getting stiffed in this plan and it's not MG buyers who wanted a MG priced at $16k and that's the only plan on the table.

Money talks.

And Stern has just expanded to do MORE contract manufacturing. This is right up their alley.

Who knows, ultimately, but is it possible? More possible than someone trying to build them in house or start their own factory.