Especially since what you see in two weeks is without software. You know, a minimal ... even premature programming. There will be no meaningful way to judge whether the game will be a pig in the poke.

Dude we get it, you got absolutely screwed. I think we can all agree you have every right to be defensive and emotional. You didn't offend me. You should be allowed ample leeway.

I've been telling Bill that you guys keep demanding ultimate meat topping pizza when all you really deserve is cheese.

I apologize to ice, and to any involved who I might have offended (except jerk pop).

I only want this to turn out as well as possible for the people who sent in deposts and the vendors and contractors. I just don't want John to pull another fast one and, it seems at a minimum, this buy out is allowing John to profit yet again instead of being chastised, he's rewarded by no bankruptcy as well a paid position in the new company, sick.

Peace

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Make the first test the machine showing up at this NW show without John. That would show they're really in charge.. Get one of his babies across the country without him. Pintasia can say he's just a consultant all they want but john is prob incapable of just being a consultant. Even if it goes through I'd expect it to fall apart with John anyway.

I do not have money on the line here.
I do know people that do.
It makes me sick to see these and any others cheated out if their money.
They are all good people that are real active and supportive of this hobby.
I hope it all works out for everyone who has money in this.
It just stinks to high heaven and I'm hoping those with moneyon the line use their heads and not their hearts when it comes to making a a final choice on how to move forward.

Makes sense since Pintasia is in Vancouver and that's 3 hours away from the show. He can drive to it..

You want a man with a slow hand; you want a lover with an easy touch.

Right back at you, Hilton, myself, Rob, etc.. have had interactions with John (and/or Kevin) and to me, it just makes me so mad that they can treat people like dirt. Myself, honestly I'd be sick to death if I had done what John has done, the second it looked like the chances were not looking good, I'd have cut every expense and honestly let people know where they stood. I think with John, that had to be around 2013 when the delivery deadline passed and he knew he was not going to make any progress. But all he did was say how great everythig was going and he had the sliminess to collect even more pre-order money.

Besides the money issue which is major, he has also turned Pinsiders against each other and made other people sick with the hobby as well as got some guys in hot water with the wives, not to mention people have other bills outside of this hobby which may have suffered as a result.

It's a one ramp game! It is lacking targets and probably needs completely retooled to shoot great.

Pintasia should hire Dennis Nordman or Joe Balcer , Zombie Yeti and apple. This team could make a phenomenal game and make it for less than Magic Girl with its non standard glass and other parts.

You do not need John.

This is a pretty broad effect, for those of us not directly involved with this game (and therefore trying to just stay out of the way) who might be finding the whole tone of the world is just going to hell. I've posted more negative stuff in the last three weeks than I ever have before combined (sorry all) and don't like it. I'm doing my best to jump around threads and post positive and upvote where I can. The poor sods who have taken the brunt of these soured deals are obviously wearing the worst of it, but the shame that falls on the shoulders of the perpetrators is the shame that they have polluted a clear, healthy pool of good people.

There are lots of new replies to this thread since I checked in earlier today. I haven't had time to read the next 40+ newest posts (probably even more by the time I submit this), but I eventually will read them all just like the 10,000+ before. It's a terrible train wreck, but I can't look away. WOW, this whole saga blows my mind! Hollywood could never come up with such a convoluted story...much less try to pass it off as "real". Yet, here we are!

I don't have any skin in the JPop game, but I've watched it from the sidelines from when it first started, and I have a huge passion for pinball going back to my early days in the 70s and pins going back before that. Heck , I really like JPop's games. (Well, SW EP1 was mostly awful.) With that being said, my heart goes out to everyone who has been screwed over by JPop (as well as Skit-B, Bumper, Wayne, Vonnie D, etc.) Those kinds of things hurt everyone in the hobby.

After reading the previous posts in this thread, I keep feeling even more pissed off for all of my fellow pinheads who are stuck in this colossal mess!

With all of that being taken into consideration, here is an outsider's opinion:
I think the best thing to do right now is to give the situation one more month to get detailed info before letting all Hell break loose on John. I don't recognize any of the Pintasia people at all (maybe that's just me being mostly a nobody, but maybe others know them?), but I still say "give them one month to show/prove themselves". After that, if you're still unsatisfied, then go full-speed-ahead with whatever you were already planning to do!

I don't know why it bothers me so much, but as Hilton can attest the fallout is more than just these 2-3 games.

Roit had a perfectly nice WOOLY game. But he could not even get enough people to commit. I had not received my refund at the time, so I couldn't get involved, I also dropped out of MMR because I had RAZA hanging over my head. I know it's really about the people with money at risk, but the ripple effect is large.

*note I am not saying John killed WOOLY, it had it's own issues, and could not attract a broad enough base, but John certainly did not help in any way the cause of Riot.

I doubt John would show his face at that pinball show anyways even if they insisted but John still has the adobe video and other avenues to promote himself with other markets to plug besides pinball shows.
If a deal does work out and decided that finishing the game without John in any capacity is more favourable, consulting with another designer to finish has some merit and since coding and such has been considered by some as a weakness with his past games. I think the strengths that can come from John are already done and another designer (depending who) could possibly finish off the game to make it better. The fancy machinery and equipment should really get sold off and used to help pay out the companies that are owed money, the idea of John getting paid and getting to keep all that fancy equipment and stuff doesn't sound right to most.

This is very true. I had money saved up when money was being taken in for Magic Girl and I nearly committed. That money eventually went into NIB Stern machines. I feel for those that went the other way and opted in.

As someone who's been long critical of this whole process, from the beginning, I sincerely wish everyone who bought into it a happy outcome. I don't know that Pintasia can supply it, and I think it's probably wise to wait a bit to even really consider it. Emotions are running high (understandably) and there are a lot of questions still to be answered.

I think we can all agree that it makes no sense for anyone to be a charity. No third party is going to step up, refund all your money, and say "sorry this sucked, have some cash, we're just here to make you feel better".

You took a risk, and you're getting burned. That's just the reality.

If there's someone willing to put their time and money on the line to try and help out, well, maybe it's at least worth hearing them out and giving it a little thought. Obviously they want to make a profit here. I wouldn't trust anyone who pretended otherwise. Frankly they deserve to if they pull this off.

The flip side is all the good intentions in the world don't make a pinball magically appear.

My personal take? The best revenge would be people getting their games, and John being left out in the cold during the whole process. If you want to sue him go for it. I wouldn't try and talk you out of it. But maybe there's something more here than just burning the house down. Maybe there isn't. A Q&A session with Pintasia would be a great next step.

The next guy to come along with a new pin/company better get used to being held under a microscope!

Someone mentioned bringing in Nordman...his stellar rep could likely paint over the stains on these games, but would he even be remotely interested?

Someone flamed John's facebook page, and I'm amazed there are people backing him up
jpop_facebook.jpg

Anyone who preorders these pins in the future deserves zero sympathy if the project fails. Too many examples of them failing not to learn.

I think jpop's credits for past games should be scrubbed from the Pinside archive. Just credit "Bally/Williams" or similar instead.

You're giving John credit for being self aware. I wouldn't.

I have been feeling fortunate with my TBL pre order that philgate is in the past. If this (and predator) had blown up prior to philgate, I'm not sure DP (or anyone else with a misstep going forward) would of gotten the chance to recover. The pinball world is different than it was in January that's for sure.

We can only hope that things turn out ok. There are still lots of people that would like to see people get games, & not be screwed over!

Joe C. Hofler for "troll of the year" on the Facebook posts

I really want to know who thinks they will get one of the three protos? seems worth the risk to play nice if you're getting something that will be unobtainium in two months.

Do you have any actual evidence of this or just spreading FUD? This is seriously not cool if you don't.

Might have been posted before but just listened to coast to coast podcast

http://www.podcastgarden.com/login/audio/272/Episode167.mp3

Good listen, flabbergasted is a great way to describe the debacle.

Any of John's handlers should not allow John to write letters, or forumulate plans. He's probably suffering from a brain disorder.

I'll go one step further and say it wouldn't upset me any if Zidware's name was removed from the pin completely and replaced with Pintasia's name and logo. That name is toxic now.

No one even acknowledged your Conway Twitty reference?! Have an upvote from me.

That's a bit of a scapegoat. Each individual is obligated to do their own due diligence before handing over money regardless of what others are saying about a fancy new product that will change the world.

It changed the (pinball) world alright. Not in a good way though, unfortunately.

A note to Mr. Brandes:

Bill,

Please take these 30 days to consider distancing yourself from JPOP. I know you are a huge fan and you have heavily invested in theses games. My take is that you became very concerned and finally visited him in the last 30 days. Everybody leaves the Mad Scientist's laboratory feeling like there is a genius at work. I am certain this happened to you as well. The part you forgot is that he pumps ether into that place (it's an expression). It takes at least 60 days to come out of the ether. How many posts have we seen filled with hopes and dreams in the last 3 or 4 years after people have left the laboratory? They always get burned by John in the end.

Many of them actually get the idea to "rescue him from himself."

You are not the first one with this idea. You are just the first one that was willing to do it under "John's terms."

That is my point to you. He is setting you up to burn you as well. I know you are in the ether because no competent businessman puts together a contract that says "Do not sue the genius at work or he will not be able to focus." Every contract you get will protect him just a little bit more. Every contract buys another two years for John to burn you and come up with another plan for himself. He will actually be able to blame you if the games don't get built.

I understand the reasons you have kept him involved. He owns everything and Has control of everything. You will not have access to any of it without him. I am here to tell you that this is a bad thing. 199 games cannot possibly be shipped in the next two years if he is involved. I personally don't think 199 can be delivered if he is not involved. JJP did not make two years, Heighway will not get 200 off in less than two years (it's been 22 months), TBL, MMR, etc...

I am saying this because I like you, but more importantly, I love this hobby. I love your spirit and I would love to see the games get made but nobody else should be burned along the way. I know John and I am certain he let you believe all the ideas in this License deal were yours. I assure you that they were not. Nobody has been able to look at his finances. How will you feel if you help protect him and you later find out that he squirreled away $400k? He is not providing financial transparency here for a very good reason.

Please reconsider your position here. Maybe you can force John's hand a little more and make this deal a little better for yourself and everyone involved. Please don't hesitate to send me a PM if you would like to hear more. I have plenty to share on what I have recently seen.

Kindest regards,

Jim Tracy
[email protected]

I assume you are talking about JPop? Pinside is an information medium like a newspaper... it consolidates news, opinions, and ads about the pinball world. Information > No Information.

More like Asperger's I'd say...shows all the signs of being on the spectrum.

Checked out the previously linked FB page and found this...MG?

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This has long been my biggest fear with John. No record of receipts for any money sent to him, no statement of accounts. He's not even sure which buyer has which game. Bookeeping seems to be mystery to JPOP and he was just spending (or squirrelling) as it came in the door.... Seemingly taking from Peter to pay Paul.

I think anyone seriously considering the Pintasia offer finally needs to be satisfied that they are getting into bed with a 'real company' that has real information.

No more blanket emails to John's mailing list.
No more asking people to show proof of deposits... this stuff should be at your fingertips.
Anyone getting into bed with John needs to at least have a record of all his preorders and deposits or none of this is truly real, just speculation.

Bill, Pintasia, whoever... Send me a personal email showing astatement of my account; including my name, production # and all moneys paid to Zidware and maybe then I would consider this a bonafide operation with half a leg to stand on. This is not an attack on the licensees, simply a request for some sort of proof that you're not in the dark in all this. Having access to zidware's books seems to be step 1 if you're serious about this venture. Canvassing the mailing list and asking for people to verify information such as payments seems like you're stil very much in the dark here.

I second the idea of having a formal Q&A to iron out everyone's concerns.

Nah... I don't see any lightning bolts on the harness straps

This is probably the best point made in the last several pages of this thread.

If I win the lottery I will buy out Jpop and get these games all delivered to all the prepayers. Purely for the love of pinball and you guys.

As a group we need to stop giving pre pay money to start ups that have no manufacturing facilities set up, it's a horrific experience as we have seen!

It's a difficult thing for people, who bought in on emotion and faith, and now have to make the transition to examining the nuts and bolts of a potential solution, to figure the viability of it. Just don't forget who is to blame.

I fully agree.
I don't blame the licensees in the least. As many have said, having options is better than none at all.
I'm simply curious how 'real' this option may be and how much insight Mr. Brandes and co truly have into John's state of affairs.
I think we all know that Pintasia doesn't HAVE to do any of this and that this entire situation rests squarely on JPOPs shoulders

Dead on. Because can someone explain to me how they're supposed to verify the "proof" you send them? It's trivial to spoof a Paypal email. If they can't look you up on their side to verify the veracity of what you're showing then what's the point?

At the very, very least, it's relatively trivial to cross reference the user list (surely that at least exists) against all the records in Paypal. I pay taxes every year on my Paypal income, I've very familiar with the tools they give you. It's easy to export all the data into a spreadsheet and start parsing it.

What if they started with sending each owner a personal email that said "We have your in our customer list, we see that you've paid $X,XXX through Paypal, we're trying to work through other records still, but if you have any records of your own that would be helpful.

We do not intend for you to sign anything until we both are satisfied that every dime of your money has been accounted for."

Nothing could proceed until they were able to do that with everyone.

And frankly, I think they should post the total publicly when they're done. So that the owners feel there are no more secrets. An anti-NDA.

John didn't accept PayPal payments to the best of my knowledge. He tried at first but had problems.
I assume most payments were done by drafts, money orders, cheques etc...

I kept carbon copies of all payments sent and one was a wire transfer. I'd have to get my bank to dig it up and print a copy.

How "real" is this offer?

You have to assess your own risk. Ask yourself the tough questions. Can they do this? If so, why? What is the proof? What is the track record? If they fail, what guarantees do they provide?

Then you have to decide if the risk is worth it for you.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/profile/pinballs

FYI, according to pinside, you've only posted in this thread. People aren't just saying that, they checked: it's not hard.

Earlier in the thread people claimed to have had John ask for PayPal payments. Other than that I have no idea.

???

What if stern commits,how would you guys react?