(Topic ID: 92436)

John Popadiuk update thread……MAGIC GIRL, RAZA, AIW…..


By iceman44

5 years ago



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#10251 4 years ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

No we are not asking for money up front from existing customers.

You say that here, but I see that no where in the new contract. Specifically, "no more money due until your game is delivered".

#10253 4 years ago
Quoted from rai:

I feel for you Chris and I know it's difficult for you especially. You see this as a way out for you and it's the best for you. But other people want refunds don't want a $16K MG pins 3 years from now.
Other people have bills, may have lost a job or have new kids (it's been 4 years after all) all kinds of things have occurred to each individual. Some can write it off some can wait another 3 years, some want a refund because they are pissed at John, some people may need a refund for various reasons. It's impossible to throw a blanket over this and say it's good for you so therefore that's the best solution.

I think most or all would love to be made whole and for this all to go away. Sign me up, I've have not got wind of where the money would come from.. I know my son has graduated high school and is now in college. Many thing have changed for everybody in the last 3-4+ years.

So then what is the best solution??

Maybe John is "investing" in the Illinois Lottery, then we will all be refunded. That would be awesome for everybody.

Many better things to be doing today. I'm going to enjoy my Sunday. Sorry to upset or offend anyone. Just hoping for a cure to this cancer.

Regards

26
#10254 4 years ago
Quoted from jwilson:

I really suggest people google this guy. There's some pretty amusing results.

Is this the same guy?

http://www.bravotv.com/the-millionaire-matchmaker/season-2/bill-brandes-heidi-cornell

Excerpt: "Patti’s other client this week is tall, dark and handsome Bill Brandes, a 45-year-old Canadian hotel executive who has flown into Los Angeles from Canada just to meet with Patti. Although he’s charming, Bill is also an ageist. He wants children and a large family, and as such, has no interest in dating a woman even close to his own age because “her eggs are dried up.” Bills wants to fly his date on a private plane to Vancouver Island where he will pamper her at his resort. But, can Patti find an age appropriate woman he will accept?"

I'm not judging or mocking in any way but holy hell. This whole jpop fiasco is crazy and getting crazier by the day.

#10255 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballrockstar:

anybody interested in this early mg artwork? i need about $6000 for it

How did you get the artwork? I've gotten zero for my money. I was thinking when this goes down the toilet I'd like a translite or something that cost me $6500.

#10256 4 years ago
Quoted from Strohz:

According to his Linked in page, Bill Brandes lists himself as President of Pintasia Designs Inc for over two months (since April 2015). I think he's had a lot more than 2 days to get his plan together. So far, I'm not impressed.

One of the parties I had knowledge of, & you would think he would get a first hand look at the situation at hand. Go to the circus, & see what is actually there for a show. You would think the first investor group did the same. I still have a hard time trying to figure out how either investor group can move forward to production. With all the legal problems, & other stuff with Jpop & his company.

#10257 4 years ago

Lower the price to 9500 give 1 to 1 credit, if you have 15k in with zidware, you pay an extra 4k to get 2 machines.
Forget le bs make them the same, cheaper and less complex to build. Keep it simple.
At 9500 a good chance they will sell a lot more.

PS john Popaduik is a disgrace, I reckon in his heart he thinkd it is not his fault.

#10258 4 years ago

Yeah, and he's apparently a love 'em and leave 'em type.

http://www.realitytea.com/2011/11/30/millionaire-matchmaker-reunion-recap-blast-from-the-past/

"The two had a romantic, intense date that just showed off how hot this single mom is. However, Bill, her date, ended up just using her for flings and would go weeks without trying to see her."

Maybe him and Popaduik have more in common than we think!

#10260 4 years ago

This is beginning to sound like a Lifetime TV movie.

images.jpg
#10261 4 years ago

Interesting reading....

In all the excitement of the new deal, did I read correctly these 2 VERY SMALL issues yet to the resolved:

There's no Programmer?
There's no Manufacturer?
There's no final Prototype?

OH well... those are minor points I suppose.... The really hard stuff (art) is covered, everything else is easy...Carry on!

#10262 4 years ago

I'm really happy to see SOMEBODY offering SOME solution to this complete fiasco.

The problem is, the ONLY person that doesn't get screwed in this case is JPOP.

IF they manage to drag this horses carcass over the finish line (after one year?!! Two years?? More??)

MG buyers get a pin that is no longer exclusive. So why is it 16K??!

Raza and AIW buyers pay exclusive MG price for a pin they didn't even WANT in the first place.

This is all wrong.

I'm really glad somebody is trying to find a solution, and I believe they have good intentions... However, this can't be brought to fruition at the expense of everybody who's had money tied up for years, in order to protect JPOP. Right now it's all downside for buyers, and upside for JPOP.

There is no code.
There is no manufacturer.
There is no price.
There is no timeline.

#10263 4 years ago

Bill Brandes is also president of my little pony LLC, he's your savior!
https://www.linkedin.com/pub/bill-brandes/50/108/32b

#10264 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

How did you get the artwork? I've gotten zero for my money. I was thinking when this goes down the toilet I'd like a translite or something that cost me $6500.

I did some emailing with john a while ago and said i was a big fan,then he promised me to send some of his work,and he did,big envelope with a $24 stamp on it with a bunch of signed artworks.(which i took of the wall in anger)

#10265 4 years ago
Quoted from shakethatmachine:

100 percent agree. There should be no reason for us customers to sign anything. We simply need to decide if and when we ever want to send anyone involved with the production of these games any money. I still want a refund and neither Zidware or the new license holder's are offering that. Zidware is in breach of their contract and I want my money back. I'm still waiting for this option or I'm inclined to sue for it. I never signed up for any version of a Magic Girl. I signed up to receive a RAZA in 2013. That didn't happen. Give me my money back.
Stern is the only assembly house able to assemble these machines. And if they do it will not be the impossible to manufacture game john half designed. It will be a Stern *ish* game and certainly not worth $16,000.

Don't sign anything except a contract with your lawyer.

#10266 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

There's no Programmer?

Programming is 80% of the work in creating a pinball machine. If they're starting over from zero and hiring "a programmer" it'll be at least a year before there's a finished game.

Quoted from MapleSyrup:

There is no code.

There is code for the current setup, and you can actually sort of play a game on it. But unless they're going to shovel large amounts of money at Jim, I doubt he'd want to be involved -- so someone is going to have to start over.

10
#10267 4 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

Is this the same guy?
http://www.bravotv.com/the-millionaire-matchmaker/season-2/bill-brandes-heidi-cornell
Excerpt: "Patti’s other client this week is tall, dark and handsome Bill Brandes, a 45-year-old Canadian hotel executive who has flown into Los Angeles from Canada just to meet with Patti. Although he’s charming, Bill is also an ageist. He wants children and a large family, and as such, has no interest in dating a woman even close to his own age because “her eggs are dried up.” Bills wants to fly his date on a private plane to Vancouver Island where he will pamper her at his resort. But, can Patti find an age appropriate woman he will accept?"
I'm not judging or mocking in any way but holy hell. This whole jpop fiasco is crazy and getting crazier by the day.

Just...wow. I AM on the twilight zone. This is too weird to be real. This is the guy who I talked to on the phone? This is the ... I just don't have words.

No one is going to believe this story outside of pinside Y'all.

#10268 4 years ago

I'm seeing a lot of comments based on the original Pintasia proposal.
The latest contract says nothing about upgrading to the cheaper MG at 2 credit.
It also clearly states that those wishing to remain in on RAZA and AIW will get 1 credit, which to me makes this pill a lot easier to swallow, but it still says the possibility of production and mentions no pricing on those 2 games. MG is still priced at $15,995. No way I was signing it with the language, price and credits to be determined for RAZA and AIW.
I'm not saying I'm for this, but I was completely against the first contract.

-1
#10269 4 years ago
Quoted from pinball_customs:

Well then i guess the cat is out of the bag.
It figures it would take a Canadian to bail out a Canadian. man I hope this works, I really do... Here's hoping Bill calls Stern first thing Tuesday morning. Hey maybe Lyman can do the code! . And Stern can learn how to integrate an LCD display finally ... It's a win-win!

+1+ Hey, as long as Stern would be pausing their current efforts, in order to focus on completing these 3 designs, why not have them produce a 2nd version (or 3rd depending on perspective) of KISS. That would be pretty rad to have Stern develop a competitors design for same title as their current release. Develop JJP's KISS pin and maker it even better than the current KISS. Come on Stern, do it!

#10270 4 years ago
Quoted from Razorbak86:

Bill, regardless of the potential merits of your out-of-court restructuring proposal, the license agreement that you just executed with an insolvent corporation is problematic:
a) Execution date? Unknown
b) Public notice to creditors? No
c) Public auction with price competition? No
d) Arms-length transaction? Unknown
e) Valuable consideration? Unknown
If you had approached this restructuring as a stalking horse bid in a §363 asset sale, these issues would have been transparent and the transaction would have been cleaner.
Because of the inability to assess whether the license transfer was in the best interest of creditors, you may have unintentionally motivated some creditors to file an involuntary bankruptcy petition just to unwind the transaction.
As you probably know, the requirements for an involuntary petition can be easily met here:
1) Filing fee: $335
2) Petitioning creditors: 3
3) Aggregate amount of claims: $15,325
4) Is the debtor generally not paying its debts as they become due? Yes (*)
(*) John Popadiuk, May 22nd letter: "As a result of the foregoing, Zidware is facing difficulty in generating sufficient cash flow to meet its obligations as they become due. Zidware concluded that it had to have help to take the designs that had been created and get them into production or the Company would be forced to pursue a Chapter 7 bankruptcy liquidation."
So if you wish to keep Zidware and its assets out of bankruptcy, to minimize delays/costs and maximize operational flexibility, you should disclose the transaction date, consideration paid, and key terms and conditions of your license agreement with Zidware.
As you undoubtedly know, transparency is very important in distressed transactions, and this one is no exception, especially given the toxic atmosphere amongst the Zidware creditor base here on Pinside.
Alternatively, you could recast the proposal as a stalking horse bid for the assets. Frankly, that's the best way to guarantee clean transfer of title free and clear of all liens and encumbrances.

This is well said. Bring on the real numbers and then a real plan.

The new license holder has no idea of what it takes to manufacture pinball machines. And yes, I do.

#10271 4 years ago
Quoted from CoinTaker:

I think most or all would love to be made whole and for this all to go away. Sign me up, I've have not got wind of where the money would come from.. I know my son has graduated high school and is now in college. Many thing have changed for everybody in the last 3-4+ years.
So then what is the best solution??
Maybe John is "investing" in the Illinois Lottery, then we will all be refunded. That would be awesome for everybody.
Many better things to be doing today. I'm going to enjoy my Sunday. Sorry to upset or offend anyone. Just hoping for a cure to this cancer.
Regards

I have no solution.

I don't like the proposed solution, but it may be better than nothing.

#10272 4 years ago
Quoted from rommy:

Bill called me and said I killed the whole project. I only mentioned to him that in a bankruptcy or even pursuing assets for recovery that any revenue streams would be explored and that if he was MG licensee to not take it personally if my or the bankruptcy lawyers added him to any recovery attempt. He went ballistic. Jeckyl and Hyde. He said the project was over and that I single handedly killed it.
His words.
I told him repeatedly thank you for what you are doing and best of luck. But he left me the impression that one second he was committed, then he faced someone not on same page and he folded. That does not sound like someone who in the face of adversity has to do something hard gets it done, like build a pinball machine. It sounds like someone who when faced with negative...quits.
Then this morning he changed his tune and now it's back to ME - according to him I am the ONLY person who wants a refund instead of the new deal. Am I in the Twilight Zone?
Can I really be the only single entity who won't go along?!?!
I just want out of this crap. Now after waiting all this time I have some nobody accuse me of being the thing that killed MG? Shit I did not even BUY MG. what is going on?!?

No, I killed the project, and so did my wife.

#10273 4 years ago

Seems like this is a few months too late. How does a 3rd party take over a company that has many valid law suits against it and is basically circling the drain about to go to bankruptcy court? All good intentions aside; is this even possible at this point? Won't a judge immediately freeze any sort of deal and let bankruptcy and class actions run their course?

#10274 4 years ago
Quoted from John_I:

Seems like this is a few months too late. How does a 3rd party take over a company that has many valid law suits against it and is basically circling the drain about to go to bankruptcy court? All good intentions aside; is this even possible at this point? Won't a judge immediately freeze any sort of deal and let bankruptcy and class actions run their course?

I bet there are many pending lawsuits. Maybe, those in already will get bought out with the left over money John isn't talking about.

21
#10275 4 years ago

If that's the same person from Millionaire Matchmaker I watched that episode, he seemed pretty well off financially, didn't know he was a pinhead, so you have to ask, why would he do this if he didn't need the money, you think this is a huge money making opportunity for a wealthy hotel owner millionaire? Are we looking a gift-horse in the mouth and possibly scaring away the only person we have at the moment willing to step in? If you were the investor wouldn't you try to protect yourself from legal battles? I don't see anyone else waiting in line to save this deal. Will waiting a few more days or weeks to see what he comes up with cost us anything? I'm still keeping an open mind and keeping my options open, let's let him know what we think and see how all this pans out. Alternately we can keep bombarding the guy with hostility until he runs for the hills and get back to our regularly scheduled program of JPOP bashing.

P.S. Seems he has been friended by Jack from JJP on his F.B page, maybe they are in negotiations already to build the games, maybe not, but we waited this long, let's see how this pans out. Chicago gaming also has the ability to assemble these games, and If Stern can be contracted to build a Whoa Nellie they can be contracted to build MG's. I'm sure there are other options available to build these. So far he seems to be keeping his ears open, let's keep ours open.

-4
#10276 4 years ago
#10277 4 years ago
Quoted from rai:

I bet there are many pending lawsuits. Maybe, those in already will get bought out with the left over money John isn't talking about.

Yes, I've been wondering some of the same things...

Why is the ONE thing everyone seems to believe from this guy who's proven to be a world-class liar, is that he's out of money for refunds?

So, NOW is the time to take him at his word?

Fool me once.....

<insert Prez Bush video....>

#10278 4 years ago

Kudos to someone for trying. Here are the issues:

1) stern of jjp to manufacture - jjp can't make their own pins so that's a no go. Stern would be a good option if they would agree. They probably won't.

2) programmers - for this amount of money you had better have a AAA programmer and not a hobbyist. There are really only two today Lyman and Keith. Both employed already.

3) designer - John is a flake and having him on this project going forward would make me pull out. To finish the machine you need a solid designer.

4) inexperience - the guys trying to carry this on have zero experience doing any of this. If they're willing to risk their money without making customers send more money that's good. I would suggest they they shouldn't spend money on this mess. Don't underestimate the amount of work this will take to finish. Just because you have money doesn't mean it will happen. I would also suggest you will almost certainly lose money on this fiasco. Understanding that if you guys want to fund loses more power to you but I would bet it will be just that you guys funding loses.

#10279 4 years ago
Quoted from John_I:

Seems like this is a few months too late. How does a 3rd party take over a company that has many valid law suits against it and is basically circling the drain about to go to bankruptcy court? All good intentions aside; is this even possible at this point? Won't a judge immediately freeze any sort of deal and let bankruptcy and class actions run their course?

Yep. Ongoing legal actions and, of course, bankruptcy will have to run their course first. This Fantasia, I mean Pintasia, pipedream is pie in the sky. I am saddened to say this, but this reality is obvious, and I'm sort of amazed that I have to state it.

14
#10280 4 years ago
Quoted from rommy:

Bill called me and said I killed the whole project. I only mentioned to him that in a bankruptcy or even pursuing assets for recovery that any revenue streams would be explored and that if he was MG licensee to not take it personally if my or the bankruptcy lawyers added him to any recovery attempt. He went ballistic. Jeckyl and Hyde. He said the project was over and that I single handedly killed it.
His words.
I told him repeatedly thank you for what you are doing and best of luck. But he left me the impression that one second he was committed, then he faced someone not on same page and he folded. That does not sound like someone who in the face of adversity has to do something hard gets it done, like build a pinball machine. It sounds like someone who when faced with negative...quits.
Then this morning he changed his tune and now it's back to ME - according to him I am the ONLY person who wants a refund instead of the new deal. Am I in the Twilight Zone?
Can I really be the only single entity who won't go along?!?!
I just want out of this crap. Now after waiting all this time I have some nobody accuse me of being the thing that killed MG? Shit I did not even BUY MG. what is going on?!?

I said I'm not signing unless Jpop is eliminated from any of this. I would also take 75 cents on the dollar and I'd be happy to go away.

So if Bill or John wants to pay me 75 % of what I have invested, I will happily go away, otherwise I'm content to go after John, his wife, his house and anything else I can to make the rest of his pathetic life an absolute living hell.

#10281 4 years ago

Two years ago, I toyed with the idea of getting in on Alice in Wonderland. I sent in for a packet, and it never arrived. I emailed and was told it was "going out today." Glad I listened to my gut that anyone who cannot send an info packet in the mail probably doesn't deserve 5 figures of pre-order money with no real way to secure it.

I love his work and own two of his machines (TOM and CV). I find this whole thing sad as a brilliant designer now has a stained reputation that will be very hard to ever correct.

Marc

#10282 4 years ago
Quoted from Razorbak86:

Bill, regardless of the potential merits of your out-of-court restructuring proposal, the license agreement that you just executed with an insolvent corporation is problematic:
a) Execution date? Unknown
b) Public notice to creditors? No
c) Public auction with price competition? No
d) Arms-length transaction? Unknown
e) Valuable consideration? Unknown
If you had approached this restructuring as a stalking horse bid in a §363 asset sale, these issues would have been transparent and the transaction would have been cleaner.
Because of the inability to assess whether the license transfer was in the best interest of creditors, you may have unintentionally motivated some creditors to file an involuntary bankruptcy petition just to unwind the transaction.
As you probably know, the requirements for an involuntary petition can be easily met here:
1) Filing fee: $335
2) Petitioning creditors: 3
3) Aggregate amount of claims: $15,325
4) Is the debtor generally not paying its debts as they become due? Yes (*)
(*) John Popadiuk, May 22nd letter: "As a result of the foregoing, Zidware is facing difficulty in generating sufficient cash flow to meet its obligations as they become due. Zidware concluded that it had to have help to take the designs that had been created and get them into production or the Company would be forced to pursue a Chapter 7 bankruptcy liquidation."
So if you wish to keep Zidware and its assets out of bankruptcy, to minimize delays/costs and maximize operational flexibility, you should disclose the transaction date, consideration paid, and key terms and conditions of your license agreement with Zidware.
As you undoubtedly know, transparency is very important in distressed transactions, and this one is no exception, especially given the toxic atmosphere amongst the Zidware creditor base here on Pinside.
Alternatively, you could recast the proposal as a stalking horse bid for the assets. Frankly, that's the best way to guarantee clean transfer of title free and clear of all liens and encumbrances.

Anyone considering their options should reread this post and fully understand what is being said here. I don't know anything about Razorbak86 but he is obviously a lawyer providing his expert opinion on this recent development.

When Razorbak86 states "the license agreement that you just executed with an insolvent corporation is problematic:" that's legal talk for 1 in a million chance you can pull this off legally, up shit creek without a paddle or snowballs chance in hell.

You owners are in a bad spot and your choice is difficult no matter how you choose to proceed. Rzorbak86 has provided his opinion on this and I suggest you digest his post. His opinion is free and solid. You don't need to spend a cent to get this exact opinion from another lawyer, it's here for the taking.

QSS

#10283 4 years ago
Quoted from taz:

Actually, in our system it is that easy, unfortunately. Other than a hit to his reputation and possibly ego, nothing will happen to him. We already know his excuse, he's just bad a business. We can sue all day long and lose more money. In the end, everyone might get a few pennies on the dollar, though probably not enough to cover legal fees. That's the really sad point in all this, especially to the people who have large sums tied up.

I don't think you and I operate in the same system...

there are MANY people either crazy enough or with the right connections to operate outside of your system. this is a case where my system tends to get more done. Jon is a mentally small man and operates on fear is my impression. If I were in on this mess I would be pulling those strings. I have a feeling that it would only take 1 visit from the right person and Jon would find a way to get you your money very quickly. Jon needs to understand he is now operating under the system of many different people.

#10284 4 years ago

Say the machines get built. What about post-production support, spare parts, etc? What happens when your $16k MG blows a board a year from now, or a ramp cracks, etc. Unless some of you do consider it artwork and will never play it. Just sayin' people -- think through this carefully.

#10285 4 years ago

Fear seems to have been the catalyst this time ... The lawsuit hits and BAM progress.

#10286 4 years ago
Quoted from Strohz:

According to his Linked in page, Bill Brandes lists himself as President of Pintasia Designs Inc for over two months (since April 2015). I think he's had a lot more than 2 days to get his plan together. So far, I'm not impressed.

Really? Because I had my business registered long before actually making a go of it. It takes very little to register a business, so maybe he was just being proactive? 2 months is nothing in this hobby

#10287 4 years ago
Quoted from rommy:

Then this morning he changed his tune and now it's back to ME - according to him I am the ONLY person who wants a refund instead of the new deal. Am I in the twilight zone?
Can I really be the only single entity who won't go along?!?!

No, I want out too. Bill, PM me and I will give you my phone number so that I can confirm this in person.

#10288 4 years ago

Where's PDXMonkey now?

image.jpg

#10289 4 years ago
Quoted from teekee:

I can't believe how much time and effort some of you have spent in this thread. If you were getting paid by the hour you guys would have enough cash to refund everyone! Fire up the grill, pop open a beverage and thank a veteran… do something worthwhile this weekend.

I've got time to do both. Neither are all that difficult or time consuming.

#10290 4 years ago
Quoted from MinusWorlds:

Where's PDXMonkey now?

Isn't it a good thing if he doesn't show up saying everything's OK? Thats pretty much been proof that shit is way worse than anyone thought.

14
#10291 4 years ago

A lot of these concerns can be answered with.... we are not looking to manufacture we are here to put a deal together with people qualified to do so. If and when the JV can be structured, we will share it with customers first and then here as well. It should not take a lot of time to get to this stage. This is why we extended the dates on the contracts so in hopes to have something signed and in concrete before you decide to go out with the pitch forks. We will have a working game pretty soon and we have no intentions of keeping it under wraps it will be at as many shows as our schedules will allow.
As for Millionaire Matchmaker.....I was asked to do it and for this I got the production company out of LA and to my hotel in British Columbia. They had never gone out of California let alone the Country however lets just say it put the place on the map and business picked up significantly. I had a good laugh this morning, thanks

#10292 4 years ago
Quoted from rommy:

Fear seems to have been the catalyst this time ... The lawsuit hits and BAM progress.

Yes, the lawsuit from Bruce Zamost was filed 7th May. Et voila.

Does Jpop think his bizarre, AIW-esque new agreement will prevent another dozen lawsuits? He would be a Mad Hatter to think he could pull that rabbit out of the hat.

#10293 4 years ago
Quoted from TOK:

Isn't it a good thing if he doesn't show up saying everything's OK? Thats pretty much been proof that shit is way worse than anyone thought.

The guy has also proved himself to be a big meanie (sorry I have to use that edited version as I've already been thread ejected once because I insulted him). I just find it convenient the guy who pushed people to stay in, eluded to all being okay, called others out for questioning JPop is now among the missing...

#10294 4 years ago

This process has nothing to do with any lawsuits whatsoever We were apprised half way through

#10295 4 years ago

A question nobody has asked: Is John working 24/7 and sleeping under his desk to bring something playable to NW Show?

#10296 4 years ago
Quoted from Pinballs:

Yes, the lawsuit from Bruce Zamost was filed 7th May. Et voila.
Does Jpop think his bizarre, AIW-esque new agreement will prevent another dozen lawsuits? He would be a Mad Hatter to think he could pull that rabbit out of the hat.

Somehow I don't think you are new...but...hey new guy that is really funny! Lmao. Thanks for that eloquent, light hearted , ballon for our overburdened spirits.

#10297 4 years ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

This process has nothing to do with any lawsuits whatsoever We were apprised half way through

Bill can you please explain how it is appropriate to suggest that if JPop stays on the project he would be compensated? Has he not taken enough from these people?

It is a valid question, and I think, one of the major sticking points in the Pintasia plan. JPop should be begging to help fix this, not looking for a paycheck.

#10299 4 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

Is John working 24/7 and sleeping under his desk to bring something playable to NW Show?

No, he'll end up cancelling his appearance just like he did at MGC, blaming it on prepping for lawsuits this time instead of Wired.com

#10300 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

I don't think you and I operate in the same system...

Sure we do, but maybe with different perspectives. We operate in a system where a bunch of white collar idiots/criminals almost took down our entire economy 7-8 years ago packaging and selling fraudulent mortgage packages. Are any of those guys in jail? I hope you're right and justice will prevail in this case, but too often it doesn't. It's been some time now, but I've been at the receiving end of a bankruptcy previously as an unsecured creditor and crawled away without a dime.

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