PavBall and I were like....

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nope

If he's drawing a salary anywhere near that, it will be impossible to deliver the games he has promised. The total income for all MGs would only pay 3 years at that salary, and we are in year 4.

There's no hope, he's ingoring everyone and just saying he will respond but just buying him self more days of the inevitable.... There's no backers left, where's the money to make mg ramps?, even if he took a loan to finish paying someone to help make mg complete it will be to fool people. He will pretend he's going to production... Buy him self more time take more money.. And still be a $500k-1mil short to build the games...never mind all the other issues.. Just my opinion

Since I like to look at both sides of the debate, and since there are no 'pro John' supporters here. I would just like to point out the possibility and how there is still a chance for these games.

I will just look at MG because that's the first game the alpha game, and should in any case be completed first or most likely to be completed. And I think it's the better looking game as well.

I'm not saying it looks likely, but that it's still possible, maybe very possible for John to build MG pins and continue from there.

I'm not putting any timeframe into this, because John is horrible at time management as we have seen since it's now 6 months post Expo and counting. But look at Nemo even The hobbit, pins take more time that planned. But just because John passed his timeframe, doesn't mean it can never be completed.

My premises are:
- John has done *some* groundwork already. He has cabinets, art, maybe working mechanisms, maybe rule tree (that need to be coded) maybe some animations or at least directions that need to be implemented, probably a whitewood.

- let's give John some credit and say he's about halfway done.

- let's say John is not completely out of money, let's say he has collected $800,000 from RAZA $300,000 from MG customers and let's say $100,000 from AIW. That's $1.2M

-Let's say he burns $12,000 per month for 4 years that's $576K round up to $600,000 so he still has $600,000 left to finish the work and another 4 years worth of cash burn left. I just picked $12k a month as arbitrary, he could have started out much lower so it is conceivable that he has only spent $600,000 if not less. Note: if this was the case, it would have made sense for him to show Ice his bank accounts to show that he is still very solvent.

Now going forward:
-let's say he can make MG at least as good likely better tha CV. I say better because it's 20 years later with advancement in computers and graphics and he has better cabinets and hinges and likely better sound etc,, I would say it's a cinch that he could build a pin better than CV with the superior materials afforded by $16,000 price tag. So all I'm asking is he makes a nice pin that's nice looking, and high quality art and materials that plays as good or better than CV. I think that is possible as Ben did AMH and the NEMO pin had far far less money and they came out. So given John 4-8 years he *should* be able to top CV.

- let's say it costs John $10k to build each MG. Ben said Predator probably should cost nearly $5k to build, so I'm giving Jonn double that. I think $10k just to build the pins is realistic.

- let's say John removes the cap or has a soft cap on the number to be sold, let's say he will sell 50 MG pins at $16k. And let's say the first 25 people still owe something like $4k each.

So that's 25 new pins at $16k equals $400k (plus 25 prior owners still owing $100k) that comes out to $500k new money to build 50 pins and I said $10k per pin equals $500k.

So my theory, he still has $600k left to finish the pins and $500k new money to build the pins.

My contention is that when John does finish the pins, people will still pay $16k if they are good! I would pay for a pin I knew was being built. I'm not saying I'd pay anything up front to John, but if he was building amazing looking MG and it was actually a good fun layout and still very limited edition, I would really consider and might actually buy one.

There you have it folks that's my glass is half full argument.

I applaud your optimism.

I'm not kidding around, if MG was built and If it played great. I see no reason that it wouldn't sell 50 units. We are talking in the future still some time, so I could easily scratch together the funds.

This pre-order BS is bad. But I'm looking past that to 'new' owners like when AMH was being built, they didn't have to worry about if it would be built. They just had to like the pin. I can see the same thing with MG, I know it's not ideal for the origonal owners, but it's better than not getting any pin and for the new owners what do they care if it took 6 years to build, they are new owners they didn't sweat the 6 year roll out.

?

Your not even close on the cost to actually build the parts to the game.. Assuming u build them for free labor... $100k just for a programmer. The wiring harness to be built for each game lol big money....never mind that cost of low run parts are two or three times as expensive to make in low production. U think jack or stern would pass on building these games if there wasn't a shit storm lot loss behind it? U think if john just took in the money owed and told people to show up and build the games with him for free he wouldn't? There's more money issues then anything.

Keep in mind I want to see these built. It's sad the state of the project.

Me too.

I just don't know. When John started this project the pinball landsacape was so much different. The only alternatives to his $16K game were an even less proven startup (JJP) or a very different Stern than we have today. Anyone with $16K to burn on pinball today or lets assume 6-12 months from now would have so many more choices. Choices that would be at least the same caliber game that Zidware could produce with the added benefit of a better support structure. Also, that $16K would probably buy them 2 NIB pins.

The $16K ship has already sailed and it does not have an MG in the rec room. But who knows, maybe if some of the predictions that are being thrown around on Pinside come to fruition, Stern will be the only game in town in 4 years. So, if John strings it out for that long, he may wind up being the only alternative after all.

He's out of money. We are having trouble tracing where $1M went, but it's gone.

Yes I would agree, there is a path to success if Magic Girl could be completed, I was proposing that a few weeks ago, but even I was stunned to learn how much work there is left to do on MG (despite visitors to his shop declaring it "near complete" 6 months ago) and he can't even hobble together one of those 3 games he has sitting there to make it look somewhat complete and get people excited.

Instead we're stuck looking at an incomplete whitewood he's had in his shop since 2012.

This is for a game he declared as having its big "reveal" 6 months ago.

All the other companies that have trouble getting games into production have at least been able to SHOW their prototypes. He is not even close to that.

He sure talked a good game, combined with outright lies about the state of things, which gave him years of time on our dime and only now with the situation so bleak has the truth come out and there's no way to save it it seems.

I think those 3(MG) will be it.Those 3 will be the "legacy" of this whole thing.Not sure who's getting them but I see no way any more get made.They will be sold in whatever stage of completion they are in.

I could envision them at a pinball show ala Pinball Circus.

I agree that the three unfinished protos are probably it. John might want to be careful with what happens to these machines. It has been suggested that they may go to the one or two buyers who still have faith in him and I could see this happening as a last ditch, passive-aggressive move. I am no legal expert and there are others in the thread who would be much more suited to address this but, it would seem to me, that if he turned over any of the machines then his whole "incompetent" defense would go out the window. In other words, he would not be able to argue a breach of contract if he delivered on any one of the games.

Any accountants, tax lawyers ect want to take one more look to see if it would be possible for us "owners" to write any of the losses off on taxes next year (long shot I know)

Doesn't your scenario (which you admittedly describe as "optimistic") result in pre-buyers for RAZA and AIW getting screwed to the extent of $400,000?

I would like to think that nobody would send him additional funds in that scenario.

I pulled the below off the net in just a few seconds (note I actually don't fully agree with it, for you to deduct money take from a fraud, most likely what this is, the fraud had to be illegal under state law and I'm not sure if that is the case):

A personal casualty loss (including a theft) is deductible if you itemize deductions. The measure of a casualty loss is the fair market value before the casualty, less the fair market value after, less any insurance proceeds. The decrease in market value can be estimated by repair costs that restore the property to it's prior condition.

If deductible, the loss must first be reduced by $100 (in 2009 - $500), and any remainder is deductible to the extent it exceeds 10% of your adjusted gross income. As an example, if your AGI is $50,000 and the personal portion of the loss is $12,000, then the deductible portion in 2010 is $ 6,900 ( $12,000 - $100 - $5,000).

In order to do so, you'd have to demonstrate:
1) the loss was the result of an "investment" (don't think the IRS will buy that argument), or,
2) the loss was the result of theft/fraud.

as always, consult your tax advisor.

Rumor has it that the artwork on the playfield on those three prototype MG's is just a sticker. If that's true then I wonder how well they will hold up.

Has anyone contacted the guy that supposedly supplied and programmed the boards that are currently being used? Wondering his take on the situation and his costs to finish. Anyone here know who he is?

CV had a team of experienced people making it happen. Everyone acts like John was the only one involved in CV, TOM, and TOTAN. He's proven he cannot do anything by himself and he has no one that is going to help him. Even some kids in a basement managed to build a flipping predator which is sadly more then John has been able to do with his 1.2M or whatever he collected and 4 years of time. Even if he does complete 1 MG he's not going to be able to build the games. He doesn't know how manufacturing works and at this rate he will be dead before he could complete the games that are already preordered much less add more preorder games to try to raise money.

Let's say he has something as good as CV (which I highly doubt as he has no one telling him no or with common sense helping him) you could have already had a CV, been playing it for 4 years and have the money left over to order a Kiss LE.

I feel really bad for everyone that has money in this and I'm sorry this happened.

Hello, don't forget WCS, which (I believe) was taken away form him..!

Depends on the quality of the clear coat. A good clear coat would protect it for a lifetime of HUO play.

This just throws up a red flag for u to get audited... Then they go back seven years and u will wish u didn't bother... Just saying.. Unless your shits all up to par dont do it

I don't think you can apply a clear coat over a sticker.

This is an unrealistically low estimate, and no base to begin your analysis. The entire post is baseless optimism.

Sure you can. Owned pins in the past that had clear coat over stickers. Let me tell ya, it doesn't look pretty

According to Steve Ritchie:

STEVE: Oh, World Cup. World Cup was taken over.

MARK: It wasn't a bad pin, it's still all right, actually we still operate it.

STEVE: In the end it turned out to be pretty Ok, but in the beginning it was handled by a newbie. The game designer was a stubborn newbie, and it had to be taken over by someone else.

MARK: Did this happen very often?

STEVE: Actually it never happened before unless somebody died or got sick.

MARK: Did he abandon the project or did he just get the sack?

STEVE: Neither. He cooperated, learned and latter did Theatre of Magic and some other really good work. But when he first came in he thought he just knew everything about making pinballs and it is just not that kind of thing. You have to live it for a long time, you must have an affinity for mechanicals and you have to be able to work with other people.

MARK: Working with others is essential, unless you are a going it alone.

STEVE: No one could make a great pinball alone. The closest I've seen is Brian Eddy on Shadow, I think. I believe he drew the game and then programmed it. It was quite a feat, but he had to learn about mechanicals on that game. It was tough, but I will always admire him for doing that.

you can. if prepared and done well.

You may be right, I was thinking an overlay.

If you've seen the recent video of MG being played, you'd realize not only is it not close to being done, but it's kind of underwhelming as well. Now, this could be due to how incomplete it is, but I was nothing but deflated (and pissed as usual at John) when I saw that video. How many years now and that's all you have to show? He is just plain incapable of getting anything done and just jumps around to the next shiny thing. I honestly feel if he had the funds to keep this charade up another 10 years, he wouldn't be any further along with the current games and would just have more incomplete games started.

PATHETIC!

For good reason

Agreed

That's a pretty low estimate IMO, very low

CV had the BEST pinball company ever behind him when he "built" CV. That's a very big assumption you are making. The sheer buying power of Bally/Williams in their pinball heyday allowed them to build that gorgeous machine for less. Let me ask you this, what do you think it would cost to build CV today from scratch, by ONE guy??? There was a team on CV, it was by no means just JPOP.

If he raises the build to 50 the price BETTER not be $16K anymore. Original buyers would be in an absolute uproar and rightfully so.

I like your optimism, I just think you are way off on some of those numbers and assumptions

Are there any boards yet?

Sad that we were led down the garden path, afraid to ask tough questions until it was too late.

Get a lawyer and sue his ass. Take everything he owns if at all possible. You will never get your pins or your money back. Make his life as miserable as possible. Have him living on the streets. He doesn't seem smart enough to have taken the precautions to keep from being sued.

Then go out back and kick your own ass for not doing sufficient due diligence and handing over money to a person that has no previous business experience.....I know i did now I can sleep a little easier at night.

oh and I saved the 10 of thousands for lawyers fees too! Sorry Ice, Rob, et al

This is funny. I was referring to one of the lawyers here starting a class action suit for the sheer satisfaction of destroying him for what he has done. Im a vindictive bastard when it comes to someone screwing me over. I want revenge as nasty as I can get it.

Maybe JPOP should enroll here to learn how to make pinball:

http://www.pinballschool.org/index_start.html

Roger that & Right On !

Revised Production Plan.

Revised Production Plan - 22.jpg

You know a thread is hot when there are four new posts when you finish reading the last 25 posts.

Lawyers doing something for "free" 30 years buying selling and dismantling companies I have yet to get something for free! what am I doing wrong Again sorry Ice Rob et al

Actually he did. Take all you want from Zidware, but John's personal assets seem pretty safe.

Even if that is true, it might be possible to pierce the corporate veil.

Scary thing if (when?) JPOP fails, he won't ever be able to go to another pinball show again, he won't be able to design anything pinball related (for profit anyway) because his reputation is so tarnished. It's sort of like the tv shows where black hat hackers lose all privileges to internet or even computers, which is complete torture because that's their whole life.
And what does he fall back on career-wise? Most engineers or product designers work in many areas (my background is in multiple consumer products in very different areas), so I'm well versed in many fields. Someone who's designed pinball their entire life have pretty limited options.

You know what I forgot? "X marks the spot where I set my phone down on vibrate while I work for 14 hours and ignore my customers"

You damn Texans are all the same

Not scary at all; it's exactly what he deserves.

Not really. I will help anyone I can. I tend to trust people when I shouldn't. If you fuck me, I want your head on a platter. JPoop took the trust of the pinball world showed a bunch of shiny stuff and shit on them. Maybe it wasn't intentionally but he spent the money and cant pay it back and still will not fess up to what he has done. He deserves the full helping of payback from the people he has screwed.