Maybe a few will but @ 10K delivered I can't see that type of aggression standing man, the Dudes will mind.

It was in one of Barry's emails about the refunds.

At one point they had said that they had "almost 300 pre-orders", but we can assume that the refund fiasco knocked that back a notch or two.

I think TBL is a great theme for pinball; in my mind, more potentially popular than MG

Don't forget that he appears to have already collected hundreds of thousands of dollars of the pre-order money as a salary over the last few years.

And of course, there is nothing wrong with collecting a salary.

It just sucks if he was collecting that salary while never intending to actually follow through with building the limited number of games he had indicated, but instead to pass off the building of games to a third party.

I disagree.

To me these machines are piece work. Meaning if I pay for pinball machine, I expect a pinball machine. If I pay for a deck on my house, I better get a deck. I don't care how much it costs the builder or how many workers or how much in materials. I pay for a deck, I expect a deck.

The builder (contractor) gets his pay from the money I pay. (profit, if he messes up on the actual amount of money it costs that's his problem. If I have a contract with the deck builder than that's exactly what I expect).

I don't disagree or forget this, just if the grand plan was to sell the games to another manufacturer from the get-go, it was a terrible plan on many fronts (lying to buyers, relying on someone with an actual plan to sweep in and save you etc...).

Honestly, it makes a plan like "just taking a bunch of money and running" seem logical. How messed up is that?

You are a reasonable guy, so I hate to say this, but I can't at all imagine we live in world where AIW would be a bigger seller than TBL, assuming games of reasonably equal quality. Just look at the buzz on this board when each was announced. Heck, there was a preorder list for TBL before the game was even a thing you could order. Many Mad Hatter profile pics on pinside?

Basically... I think you are (gasp!) wrong about this.

Unless you hire a bad contractor, then you need adam carolla to step in

Contractors skip out on jobs all the time if they start to get upsidedown.

That is why I sometimes have to make our contractors buy a Completion Bond before I give them a project.

If a Completion Bond costs 3% of the job price in the construction industry, what do you think it would cost in the pinball industry, lol????

You are a reasonable guy, so I hate to say this, but I can't at all imagine we live in world where AIW would be a bigger seller than TBL, assuming games of reasonably equal quality. Just look at the buzz on this board when each was announced. Heck, there was a preorder list for TBL before the game was even a thing you could order. Many Mad Hatter profile pics on pinside?
Basically... I think you are (gasp!) wrong about this.

I have to disagree, and from one reasonable guy to another I'm not sure the world you live in if you think The Big Lebowski is a more recognizable theme and or story. The darkness of AIW leaves a ton of options available to both hardcore and not so hardcore pinball fans.

AIW is a great IP, and I disagree with your comment about TBl vs AIW. If John had shipped MG, and RAZA was on its way to the production line, THEN AIW would be taken seriously and hav just as large of a following as TBL if not more because of John's proven technology and track records. Well, non of that happened because most people looked at AIW as game 3 and responded "where's game 1?!"

The idea that the big manufacturer would cover JPop's sunk costs reminds me of the pawn shop that pays full sentimental value:

https://screen.yahoo.com/sentimental-value-pawn-shop-000000120.html

*If* he's truly out of money AND asking manufacturers for a designer fee for each pin he's truly delusional. *If* that's all true I'm afraid all hope is lost IMO.

I have no idea what if any of these rumors are true. I just know, speaking for myself, if I were in the same position and wanted to salvage some bit of my reputation and wanted to show my face around expos again, I wouldn't take a dime from any deal until all the owners had been made whole

(I'll add unpaid vendors to this as well, since they helped get the games to where they are).

So any deal I constructed, that would be job 1. When that part of the puzzle is solved, then I'd negotiate what I get from it.

Yeah, but you're a reasonable, logical person.

Popaduik isn't. That's what is so frustrating.

That's an understatement. I'm hoping an investor steps in, but who in there right mind would buy this?

I 100% agree with the potential being there regarding AIW. Just time and time again when push has come to shove, unlicenced pins get the cold shoulder when it comes time for people to open their wallets. Heck even BHZA and whatever it morphed into lean heavily on "inspired by license" material.

Ben Heck, licensed brand (I realize no money probably changed hands). Then that did not work so lets just be "inspired" by Toho and Mars Attacks.

People complain they want unlicenced themes, just not any that appear to come up for sale apparently

In both cases we are talking about people pre-paying for an invisible product, so it's just not a great comparison, or shall I see neither of these are a great comparison to something like Stern who builds and then sells. MG was limited from the outset to 17, 20, 24, 50, whatever the number is today, so most people figured they would never get one even if they wanted one. TBL is a $10k machine to those in the U.S. which is $thousands beyond a Stern LE. Ultimately if either game gets built, looks and plays great, and and priced in the ballpark of a Stern LE, and is not limited in run, then we'd easily see 500-1000 sales of each... but that wasn't the intention in either case.

TBL is closer to that because it isn't a predetermed limited run, they don't require a pre-order to purchase (which is a reason why the initial pre-order seems a little low), but the overseas shipping and exchange rates all play some part in making the game cost more than most can afford. I'd personally like to buy both, but no game is worth 5 figures to me.

Wow, this thread is amazing...
I really feel bad after reading this for months now...
but when are we going to see JPop do the "perp walk" in Chicago?

fast-food-strike.jpg

The angry mob might just stuff him into one of those RAZA cabinets.

sucks.jpg

The only problem is at $125 per machine, and lets say they sell 1000 of each machine, That is $375,000. That won't pay for the prepaid money already sent to John. I doubt JJP or Stern would give free games, to those that have already paid John, so that means people would get some money back, but not all, and would still have to buy the machine from JJP or Stern, that they already paid John. Whatever way you look at it, John has screwed people.

I think AIW is basically the best of both worlds.....It's just like a license that doesn't need a agreement with the license holder. I bet Kevin would be reallllly interested in this one instead of Predator
Just think there is no restrictions at all in what the artwork has to look like or what the evil Queen can and cannot do with the interaction of the ball!

Unlicensed themes are still themes, and people who want unlicensed themes expect them to be of B/W quality (AFM, MM, CV, etc)

In Spooky's case, the art & voice package did not live up to the standards set by B/W - so it is what it is.

In John's case, it was so limited that they got who they got and that was that. As time has gone on, the flake-factor has kicked in - so John could have designed the greatest unlicensed theme ever but who gives a flying F - as of right now he's squandered people's money & has no proof he'll be able to manufacture.

In Dutch's case - they have proven they can program a game and manufacture a product (BOP 2.0) & they have a cool license that they've done justice.

No Damnit!
Everyone must work for free!
For the common good of pinball!
Fast, don't eat and just work on pinball for free!

I have to wonder if there was ANY business planning/budgeting done for these games at all. Did these games ever make sense on paper, even in 2011?

And what allowance was there for them to go so badly over schedule? Years of additional cash burn, which includes John continuing to take a salary for years past the original completion date.

I did have these questions in my head even at the beginning, how are these games possible on a million dollars revenue and years of effort? I should have trusted my own business instincts then. Instead I trusted John and his "30 years of being in the pinball industry".

If it is an investment it looks like the risk/reward sword just cut down the JPoopers. Is it only allowed to be an investment if it increases in value?

For certain, we collectively backed off every time he got his feathers ruffled.

Then the whole joke about people going to his shop and reporting to us not to worry, they can't tell us what they saw, but it is awesome and everything is all good!

No wonder John always answered people's requests for answers by telling them to visit the shop. Those shiny lights did their effect.

And here we are today, 4+ years in, with no games, and scrambling for any plan to save it. And we still have to deal with the shop reports of having "played" the game, but not telling us about it or showing us anything.

Making pinball start to finish is very hard.

Especially if you aren't willing to ask for help or aren't willing to lean on the shoulders of giants before you.

Considering that was a reply to a comment by someonelse made about the financial value of the machines, perhaps you should ask them.

I have no doubt that some jumped on JPOP as an investment. And therefore they shouldn't be incredulous that it went south. Investments often do. Pissed, sure. Who wouldn't be?

^This^

As stated before, ask the poster that made the comment about the pins value. Perhaps we should move back on topic, yes?

It's strange, John seemed like he was updating his Twitter page last year posting on a regular basis (https://twitter.com/johnpopadiuk). Updates stopped happening after he received his TOPPS Mars Attack book. I believe the last official update with regards to anything related to pinball was having his back door opened at his shop.

open.JPG

I have no question to whatever poster you keep referring to. I responded to your post, which implied that people that didn't consider pins investments were incontinent. Now, feel free to have the last word, but let it go already.

TBL is 10,000.00. that is a lot of cash to me.

When did TBL go to $10k??

At Xmas

I appreciate the last word, thank you. I made no claim either way if they have investment value. Why you kept trying to engage me in banter about it with questions in two consecutive post about what I thought of the investments is befuddling at best. Ben stated he hoped they appreciated and created wealth, IE investment. I made a simple statement saying the "pins aren't investments crowd" wouldn't like talk like that. For whatever reason, you were trying to turn my post into more than it was or you are just having a hard time keeping up. Either way, thanks again for the last word. Back on topic.

See below:

I paid $6500 for WOZ ECLE and $7500 for The Hobbit Smaug Edition, but $10,000 for The Big Lebowski is just too much for me. YMMV

Ben is correct, that if the pins were made (they are not) and if they are great (we don't know if they will be any good) they will increase in value.

So two prerequisites are missing. To my knowledge the games that have gone up MM, AFM, Tron LE, BBB have all existed first, were good second and went up in value last.

So if anyone was counting on these pins going up in value that is putting the cart before the horse.

I don't think any are now but I'm quite sure there were some who hoped to catch lightning in a bottle (similarly as to how BBB appreciated) when they first jumped in way back when.

I'd still like to know what this "30 years" entails...if that was part of the premise, this whole project was started on a lie. According to IPDB his first game was a never produced title called Ice Castle in '89. We know he was at Bally/Williams from WCS to SWEp1. Even if you factor in Zizzle...where does 30 years come from? I know Jpop's not very good at math...but seems more like 10 years at most.

I guess if you factor in shipping and taxes, it edges toward that. I'm gonna forget those things exist and still say it's $8500

Yeah but BBB was $4500...the fact that it shot up took years (and sheer "luck"). Plus it was a game that was designed already & had many parts made. When you're starting at $17,000 & nothing about the game even exists beyond a title...that's waaay more of a gamble.

Im pretty shure they told me $9500. I was going to buy one but hell, I can buy a ne motorcycle for that kind of cash.