(Topic ID: 92436)

John Popadiuk update thread……MAGIC GIRL, RAZA, AIW…..


By iceman44

5 years ago



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#7701 4 years ago
Quoted from retro_p:

That's $17K that could have been spent on (several) Spooky or Heighway pins. It's not like that money is intractably glued together, and can't be split up : P

Well, you're right, and as it stands all that money got put into a pit and lit on fire and no one is getting anything from it.

#7702 4 years ago

If it was his plan to get bought out, that was a shitty plan because everyone in the pinball business who might do that is well versed in the JPOP effect and wouldn't touch him with a 10 foot pole.

It's not exactly a giant business and word gets around fast.

#7703 4 years ago
Quoted from retro_p:

That's $17K that could have been spent on (several) Spooky or Heighway pins. It's not like that money is intractably glued together, and can't be split up : P

Eh, a handful of people who have really large pinball budgets? I don't consider anything John is doing competition for Alien or Full Throttle (AMH is sold out). And that's being generous and pretending he's actually "doing" games, like they're still going to ship, which feels pretty unlikely.

If you're in on any of these games you're pretty much an "elite" collector, and can probably pick up any machine you feel like.

#7704 4 years ago
Quoted from retro_p:

That's $17K that could have been spent on (several) Spooky or Heighway pins. It's not like that money is intractably glued together, and can't be split up : P

I can somewhat see your point, but Ben isn't exactly competing with Jpop since Jpop hasn't even produced one game; what's there to compete against? And Ben's giving his opinions based of everything we all know now. He certainly wasn't giving his opinion a year ago in this manner and no one else was. I think we're all on the same page now. What we see is what we know, and we haven't seen much :/.

#7705 4 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

You can't refund money that doesn't exist.
John's gambit was take pre-orders, make a bunch of pretty art and patents, and get bought out/hired before he actually had to produce anything.
Didn't work. And now any investor has to deal with 500-600k of unfunded liabilities (building games owed) on top of however much labor it would take to actually finish them.

Quoted from retro_p:

You started out phrasing these suppositions as fact, making some pretty heavy assertions... but they are still grounded only in opinion.

Under the circumstances I disagree with the "don't trash your competitors" line of argument (different markets and JPop is not exactly "competing" with anyone at the moment anyway). But I definitely agree that serious statements like these should be identified as opinions/inferences if that's what they are, regardless of who they're coming from.

#7706 4 years ago
Quoted from jwilson:

If it was his plan to get bought out, that was a shitty plan because everyone in the pinball business who might do that is well versed in the JPOP effect and wouldn't touch him with a 10 foot pole.
It's not exactly a giant business and word gets around fast.

You know, it's not surprising that he wanted to build this sort of "prestigious pinball empire" to be bought out given his track record and the games he built. I've personally seen many digital marketing companies fail because they've entered the market with the goal of being "bought out". Definitely not the way to go and actually shocking for me to consider this could very well have been Jpop's goal :/

#7707 4 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

What you'd have to do is this:

1) Need 500k?
2) Profit per RAZA is 4k
3) 500k/4k = sell 125 more games

This math can't be disputed as much and really shows what a hole jpop has to climb out of at the moment IF everything else worked out perfectly.

#7708 4 years ago
Quoted from retro_p:

I read this and stopped there.
You started out phrasing these suppositions as fact, making some pretty heavy assertions... but they are still grounded only in opinion.

At least he said John had some positive outcome in mind versus everyone losing their $$ and getting nothing in return. He was extremely generous in his "heavy assertions" imo.

#7709 4 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

You can't refund money that doesn't exist.
John's gambit was take pre-orders, make a bunch of pretty art and patents, and get bought out/hired before he actually had to produce anything.
Didn't work. And now any investor has to deal with 500-600k of unfunded liabilities (building games owed) on top of however much labor it would take to actually finish them.

If what you say is true then he used DECEPTION to get me to give him money. He told me/us that HE was going to build the games, not create a speculative pinball model to SELL to someone else. In fact he said YOU and him both would show up to complete the build. If that was all a lie...the word for that begins with an F and ends in criminal court.

#7710 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

If you're in on any of these games you're pretty much an "elite" collector, and can probably pick up any machine you feel like.

Respectfully disagree... perhaps not for a $17k MG (those who were in may pick up any machine), but unsure about those who bet $8-10k on RAZA.

That's money that could have been spent on Heighway, Spooky, P3, etc...

In my case the $$$ lost on predator are $ I would have spent on another pin.

15
#7711 4 years ago

I never agreed to fly to anyone's home to complete a build. If John wanted me to do that he should have created a contract (BTW I never had one despite him using my likeness) that specified "public appearances" were one of the conditions of my compensation.

It's a ridiculous idea anyway. Spend thousands on travel for 2 people, and who completes a game upon delivery anyway?

#7712 4 years ago
Quoted from jlm33:

In my case the $$$ lost on Predator are $ I would have spent on another pin.

Predator for sure. That's a real shame, and I hope you get your money back, or at least some/most of it.

Nothing to be gained by arguing abut it though really. I'm going to focus on making Alien as compelling as I can for anyone who's interested in a real game, that will ship. When we can show things, we will. No years of secrets. And if you don't want to pre-order I'm happy to try and earn your business the traditional way.

In that sense I don't see companies like Heighway and Spooky competing.

#7713 4 years ago

I'm reposting jpop's "lebowski effect" post here, in light of us waiting for this magic girl video. I swear he must not remember what he writes 2 minutes after he wrote it.

Posted here originally Oct 23, 2014 (now is public)
https://magicgirldev.wordpress.com/2014/10/23/strike-the-lebowski-effect/

Big Lebowski at Pinball Expo

Well those that were there or read the forums know this game. It kinda’ destroyed all the other new game energy coming out from the vendor hall. The big Lebowski pinball from Holland. I was able to spend some time at Pinball Expo this year. Not a whole lot but enough to talk to a lot of people, see the new crop of boutique games and to feel the effect.

So I coined a new term…..The Lebowski Effect – “The outcome of showing a new game concept, exactly and early on, it’s it’s entirety to the masses to create surprise, comradery and extreme happiness”

The Dutch Pinball guys who will soon be overtaking the pinball world in Europe and beyond, brought the TBL proto to Terry’s Pinball Life event on the Expo Friday. I stood here (exactly in the photo) watching as they rolled out a rug (I have not seen the movie yet) and then proceeded to watch them setup the game, plug it in and walk away. For sure it was the most popular attraction at the event next to the food, and the beer fridge. The game had ball hangers, you had to hake it and the code crashed and rebooted. But no one cared.

As I designer I talk to many people about pinball, likes, dislikes and the future. TBL definitely captured the players, as the game was well made, 80’s simple, nicely appointed with features, looked nice, worked and had basic code and dots. I did not see the bowling effect on this particular game. The dots from a new display are unlike anything in pinball today and they have seemed to preempt the new Stern color display we hear rumored but delayed. So what about the game really made folks notice?
What mesmerized them?

Certainly it is hard to pin 1 thing on this game. Was it because it was just new and shiny? The vulgar language, the cultish nature the art, the display, White Russians, the old time feel, the bowling mech…what is the X factor? Why did no one talk about anything else really?

For me, and the point of all this, was to remind and reinforce that we used to create The Lebowski Effect when we would take a new game from WMS to a test location. It was a Ninja type of thing and we would stand and babysit the “early” games to make sure they worked and made money. The “Effect” we would read on RGP as folks would find the games and then do a writeup. We could not serve booze as the DP guys did in their suite preview though.

But a very powerful reminder that in the age today of so many game choices the small builders need to get here sooner and build up from there. Letting people into the process is great, but the Lebowski Effect is the goal. And the game better be solid before you show it. Jpop

It's posts like this that set us all up to be repeatedly let down.

#7714 4 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

I never agreed to fly to anyone's home to complete a build. If John wanted me to do that he should have created a contract (BTW I never had one despite him using my likeness) that specified "public appearances" were one of the conditions of my compensation.
It's a ridiculous idea anyway. Spend thousands on travel for 2 people, and who completes a game upon delivery anyway?

I remember back at MGC in like 2012.... John was giving his presentation on his Zombie Adventureland game and Ben was sitting with him.

John mentioned how if you paid $1000 extra then he and Ben would fly out and help build the game at your house. Ben was obviously shocked at this statement... it was as if John never even talked to Ben about this and Ben was just finding this out. I think Ben even said something to the effect of "what if the customer is in England?!"

#7715 4 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

I never agreed to fly to anyone's home to complete a build. If John wanted me to do that he should have created a contract (BTW I never had one despite him using my likeness) that specified "public appearances" were one of the conditions of my compensation.
It's a ridiculous idea anyway. Spend thousands on travel for 2 people, and who completes a game upon delivery anyway?

Wasn't that a $1k upcharge? I find it hard to believe that 2 people can travel round trip, get lodging, and eat on $1k and have much left to pocket for the effort.

#7716 4 years ago
Quoted from ChadH:

John mentioned how if you paid $1000 extra then he and Ben would fly out and help build the game at your house. Ben was obviously shocked at this statement... it was as if John never even talked to Ben about this and Ben was just finding this out. I think Ben even said something to the effect of "what if the customer is in England?!"

Corroborated. I remember Ben's reaction being something like, "I'm doing what?" Basically he was learning about John's idea at the same time as all of us.

#7717 4 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

I formed this opinion through observation and analysis.
When you see where things are now, and look at things he's said over the years in interviews, seems like he always planned to get bought out.
Not saying he PLANNED to fail, but he got himself into a situation where a buyout was the only way to succeed.
As GLM said, his business model was never sustainable. Nuts and bolts aside, certain one-time costs are very high, specifically code. It's tough to amortize these across 100 games, let alone 20! It's just not worth programming 20 of something.

This was my thought from the very outset of the MG announcement... it would be impossible to design and build 20 games without losing money. Costs should have covered parts so I assumed that loss would come in the form of his and others' free labor. It would be kind donation to the pinball community.

The problem is, if all games were intended to go into a handful of basements around the world never to be seen again (remember the on-location clause voids warranty), then there is no value to the pinball community. If your buyout speculation is true, the buyer would require the run to be expanded to cover costs completely, and the limited run aspect no longer becomes the advantage that buyers used as the primary justification for paying, by far, the highest per-game price for any pinball machine in history.

In other words, if John truly planned a buyout, the games were sold in bad faith from the outset. And without a buyer, and without using RAZA and AIW money as a pyramid scheme, I'm having trouble understanding how MG gets completed at this point.

#7718 4 years ago
Quoted from desertT1:

Wasn't that a $1k upcharge? I find it hard to believe that 2 people can travel round trip, get lodging, and eat on $1k and have much left to pocket for the effort.

That should have been a red flag back then. Seems like he didn't do the math on that either. I remember getting all excited about magic girl, because I am an amateur magician. I called jpop and got his voicemail. He called back and my wife took the call. She told me how many he was making and the price, and I never called him back. #1 reason was the price. #2 reason was the number of games he was making. I couldn't figure how he could make a go of it.
If he dropped the price to $8k and was an unlimited number I'd be in. There is a greater incentive to make a good pin, and improve it later, like with software, if you have an unlimited run. I'm probably in the minority here, on my thinking.
Oh yeah, and based upon his track record now, I wouldn't believe anything he said. I would want to see before I buy. He's definitely lost credibility.

#7719 4 years ago

John's reputation among collectors is/was that the pinball community liked the games he designed (for the most part). John's reputation with people who worked with him or did business with him is/was that he is a flake. Right now as far as I'm concerned his reputation is ruined and I doubt anyone would do business with him unless there was money to be made, which is this case is probably not possible. So if John went into this thinking he was going to be bought out, he's more delusional and stupid than I can find words for. If the games ever do get produced I hope people don't forget what a jerk off he is and don't ever send him pre-order money ever again. In fact if anyone ever sends ANY pinball maker pre-order money again then they deserve what they get.

#7720 4 years ago
Quoted from NYP:

In fact if anyone ever sends ANY pinball maker pre-order money again then they deserve what they get.

+1

#7721 4 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

It is exceedingly tough to sell a business based on IP alone.
No one wants to assign value to just artwork and patents unless there is revenue to back up the IP and show it has value and I don't think expended pre-order deposits would be considered actual revenue by anyone (I know none of my clients would categorize it as such, it would be categorized as a liability...).

I've done it before, but the transaction needs to be structured correctly to ensure that it cannot be unwound later. Clean title transfer is paramount in distressed asset sales due to the presence of contingent liabilities. No sophisticated buyer would purchase the intellectual property of Zidware, Inc., unless structured as an asset purchase agreement and sold free and clear of all liens and encumbrances.

#7722 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Agreed. Video or bust! What's the hold up? Takes minutes to upload a YouTube. I could take a video of writing this post and follow up with another one in 5 minutes showing me writing it.

Fine, here is a MG video.

10
#7723 4 years ago

Uh oh! The truck have started to move!

#7724 4 years ago
Quoted from Wahnsinniger:

Uh oh! The truck have started to move!

I read thru the last few pages of updates...

I feel asleep!!

#7725 4 years ago
Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

I read thru the last few pages of updates...
I feel asleep!!

Wake up, it's a real nightmare.

#7726 4 years ago
Quoted from NYP:

John's reputation among collectors is/was that the pinball community liked the games he designed (for the most part). John's reputation with people who worked with him or did business with him is/was that he is a flake. Right now as far as I'm concerned his reputation is ruined and I doubt anyone would do business with him unless there was money to be made, which is this case is probably not possible. So if John went into this thinking he was going to be bought out, he's more delusional and stupid than I can find words for. If the games ever do get produced I hope people don't forget what a jerk off he is and don't ever send him pre-order money ever again. In fact if anyone ever sends ANY pinball maker pre-order money again then they deserve what they get.

Confirmed, at least on the collector side. I have a buddy who has some of John games. When I told him about this mess, he was like "but its john" I tell him he is 3 years behind schedule, he's like"but it's John, he's great!!!" I don't think he ever heard what I was saying!!!

#7727 4 years ago
Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

I read thru the last few pages of updates...
I feel asleep!!

But don't have any more details to offer?

I'll never understand this. Everyone who visits comes back saying "everything is fine!" but *never elaborates* or *provides details*.

#7728 4 years ago
Quoted from jwilson:

But don't have any more details to offer?
I'll never understand this. Everyone who visits comes back saying "everything is fine!" but *never elaborates* or *provides details*.

THE JEDI JPOP MIND TRICK continues......

#7730 4 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

Compliance will be rewarded.

Set emotions to snark:

If you play your cards just right you might be allowed to play the same partially completed game next year!

#7731 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Eh, a handful of people who have really large pinball budgets? I don't consider anything John is doing competition for Alien or Full Throttle (AMH is sold out). And that's being generous and pretending he's actually "doing" games, like they're still going to ship, which feels pretty unlikely.
If you're in on any of these games you're pretty much an "elite" collector, and can probably pick up any machine you feel like.

What nonsense! You're speaking like you know all of the folks who placed pre-order money with JPOP. Every pinball dollar wasted with Zidware is money I won't have to buy something else. Look man, if you don't know, don't talk. Guess I'm an "elite collector." I should tell my wife that I can now pick up any game I like cuz I'm an elite collector now that I've been f&(!ed by JPOP.

#7732 4 years ago
Quoted from Euchrid:

What nonsense! You're speaking like you know all of the folks who placed pre-order money with JPOP. Every pinball dollar wasted with Zidware is money I won't have to buy something else. Look man, if you don't know, don't talk. Guess I'm an "elite collector." I should tell my wife that I can now pick up any game I like cuz I'm an elite collector now that I've been f&(!ed by JPOP.

It was just a generalization. I'm confident he meant no offense. I'll admit I was extremely close to pulling the trigger on MG because I really am (was?) a huge JPop fan. Theatre Of Magic was my first love. But I would certainly not consider myself an "elite collector". Just an unwise spender of money.

-11
#7733 4 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

FYI, to Kim, the nazi message board operator, no need to send PM's around to everybody re the Jack/JJP issue of making the pins for John, like talking to Gomez about the same thing.
That came out of John's mouth to me, no big deal and not some CIA secret.
Good lord, take your private FB site and shove it.

WOW, you have sunk to an all time low. Calling Kim a Nazi just because he tried to help makes you an *not nice guy* bigger than any I have EVER seen on Pinside. I suggest you publicly apologize for that and then go *play with* yourself.

#7734 4 years ago
Quoted from Pinballmike217:

WOW, you have sunk to an all time low. Calling Kim a Nazi just because he tried to help makes you an <edited> bigger than any I have EVER seen on Pinside. I suggest you publicly apologize for that and then go <edit> yourself.

that.gif

#7735 4 years ago
Quoted from Pinballmike217:

WOW, you have sunk to an all time low. Calling Kim a Nazi just because he tried to help makes you an asshole bigger than any I have EVER seen on Pinside. I suggest you publicly apologize for that and then go fuck yourself.

Dude, PM if you must.

-15
#7736 4 years ago
Quoted from PEN:

Dude, PM if you must.

Nope, a line was crossed. It's only pinball. Moderators should ban Iceman from Pinside for that comment. I lost way too much family in WW2 for me to have to deal with that *dog poo* here.

#7737 4 years ago

Simm...simm...simmahdownnah!

Cheri-Oteri-Collette-Reardon.gif

#7738 4 years ago
Quoted from Euchrid:

What nonsense! You're speaking like you know all of the folks who placed pre-order money with JPOP. Every pinball dollar wasted with Zidware is money I won't have to buy something else. Look man, if you don't know, don't talk. Guess I'm an "elite collector." I should tell my wife that I can now pick up any game I like cuz I'm an elite collector now that I've been f&(!ed by JPOP.

I am of course generalizing. And I didn't mean to imply that losing money on this venture wouldn't sting. That sucks. I guess I just see people who were up for paying $17,000 for a super limited pinball that might takes years to make as being people who were pretty immune to standard market logic.

But I guess money is money, you're right, and so is anyone else. Money sent to Jpop is money that could have gone to other games. I guess I just don't really see Zidware as real competition for the players with factories who think about games by the thousands, instead of by the tens.

#7739 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

I am of course generalizing. And I didn't mean to imply that losing money on this venture wouldn't sting. That sucks. I guess I just see people who were up for paying $17,000 for a super limited pinball that might takes years to make as being people who were pretty immune to standard market logic.
But I guess money is money, you're right, and so is anyone else. Money sent to Jpop is money that could have gone to other games. I guess I just don't really see Zidware as real competition for the players with factories who think about games by the thousands, instead of by the tens.

RAZA and AIW were $10k. I think RAZA buyers had about $4-5k in at this point, with about 100 of them. AIW deposits were what, $1500-$2k. That's all NIB money that could have gone elsewhere.

As for elite collectors, there are maybe 25 people affected by MG, but about a hundred RAZA buyers and a bunch of AIW buyers. I know a lot of people really considering AIW who are anything but elite collectors. They just thought they could sell a few games and save to finance their dream theme. And $10k is on the high side, but every Stern LE is getting closer to $8k, TBL is $9k, MMR is $8k, TH is $8.5k, and even the standard edition Alien is $7k USD before shipping ($8.5k for the LE). Like it or not, the pinball NIB mainstream, with the exception of Stern Pro models, is getting closer and closer to the $10k mark all the time.

I guess your point about the big guys not being competitors to the small guys stands, because of the volume differences, but anytime someone removes a million bucks from the hobby it is a pretty big deal. Lots of other companies could have thrived with that money, even the big players.

#7740 4 years ago
Quoted from Sjsilver:

I guess your point about the big guys not being competitors to the small guys stands, because of the volume differences, but anytime someone removes a million bucks from the hobby it is a pretty big deal. Lots of other companies could have thrived with that money, even the big players.

Yeah, that's true. And you're right, not everyone is already in for $17k or whatever, that's a small %. I concede the point, pinball money is pinball money.

#7741 4 years ago
Quoted from Sjsilver:

I think RAZA buyers had about $4-5k in at this point

The Payment schedule was:

3/1/2012 - $750 (Pre-order agreements)
6/1/2012 - $2250 (Game Concept)
11/1/2012 - $1250 (Whitewood, Software Start)
3/1/2013 - $2250 (Game Review, Changes, Software)
6/1/2013 - $3000 (Evaluation: Final Designs, Final artwork)
9/1/2013 - $495 (Build)

Optional : Ben & John show up at your house Q4/2013 - $1000

I was asked and paid up to "Game Review" which put me at $6500. John never asked for the next $3k, thank God, I'm sure he realized how far behind he was. Even when I sent in the $2250 I knew he was not at that stage yet because we had basically seen nothing of the game. We're kind of at this stage today basically.

That's 124 RAZA's paid approx $6500 each ($806k collected). Plus 19 Magic Girls at $17k ($323k). Even if not everyone paid up as much, that still going to put you at over a million, or just shy of it.

I kept wondering if my $3500 owing would cover BOM on raza, but Ben's guess is $6k to build it. So I don't see how my $3500 will get things done, other than help pay for someone's Magic Girl to get built.

My $6500 lost is $6500 lost any way you cut it. That is a Stern Premium or Heighway game chucked off a 20 story building roof.

27
#7742 4 years ago
Quoted from Pinballmike217:

Nope, a line was crossed. It's only pinball. Moderators should ban Iceman from Pinside for that comment. I lost way too much family in WW2 for me to have to deal with that *dog poo* here.

The term Nazi was not meant literally and you know that too. Today the word is used as to mean someone who wants absolute power or to control things with an iron fist. It's commonly used not referring as antisemitic, even Seinfeld TV show used the term so don't bringing the holocaust into this is overreacting, and you know it too. You are escalating the term out of proportion and bringing the Holocaust in is really low IMO.

#7743 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Yeah, that's true. And you're right, not everyone is already in for $17k or whatever, that's a small %. I concede the point, pinball money is pinball money.

The point was that Zidware / JPOP is a competitor to Spooky and thus Ben's opinion shouldn't carry weight because he works for Spooky and would be biased. The fact is that Spooky is sold out of pins while all folks money are still tied up w/ Zidware / JPOP.

-10
#7744 4 years ago
Quoted from rai:

The term Nazi was not meant literally and you know that too. Today the word is used as to mean someone who wants absolute power or to control things with an iron fist. It's commonly used not referring as antisemitic, even Seinfeld TV show used the term so don't bringing the holocaust into this is overreacting, and you know it too. You are escalating the term out of proportion and bringing the Holocaust in is really low IMO.

Wrong. So wrong . It is an anti-Semitic reference. Please stop using it.

#7745 4 years ago
Quoted from rommy:

Wrong. So wrong . It is an anti-Semitic reference. Please stop using it.

Try and be more offended next time. K thx.

#7746 4 years ago
Quoted from rommy:

Wrong. So wrong . It is an anti-Semitic reference. Please stop using it.

It's not. Context, did Ice in any way refer to race or religion? This is total Bolshivism on your part to suggest otherwise (joke).

#7747 4 years ago
Quoted from rommy:

It is an anti-Semitic reference.

Does Nazi equal anti-semitic only? What about Gipsies, Mentally-impaired, Gays? (and probably forgetting a few others: Commies, etc... Plenty of reasons to be considered sub-human).

(and back to the initial post, no way Ice was suggesting any of the above - that was an inadequate choice of words, I would give it a rest now)

#7749 4 years ago

I don't think Pinside is the place for this kind of political reference that clearly some here find offensive.

This thread is the only place we can come and get updates on where my money is and whether or not we are going to see a pinball machine out of all this or not. It would be great if we could talk about that.

#7750 4 years ago

And back on topic.

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