(Topic ID: 92436)

John Popadiuk update thread……MAGIC GIRL, RAZA, AIW…..


By iceman44

6 years ago



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#6101 5 years ago
Quoted from ChadH:

Just posted to Facebook.
Careful with those ramps, Eugene.
image.jpg (Click image to enlarge)

One thing that makes no sense,
if it's a home use edition, hence must just have free play on,
why is the special insert so important and big?

#6102 5 years ago
Quoted from HighProtein:

One thing that makes no sense,
if it's a home use edition, hence must just have free play on,
why is the special insert so important and big?

It's a pop up ball saver
Like family guy or champion pub

It was originally designed for TOM but got cut in the productions run.

#6103 5 years ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

It's a pop up ball saver
Like Family Guy or Champion Pub
It was originally designed for TOM but got cut in the productions run.

I think he meant the 2 "Special when lit" inserts at the outlanes.

Chris

-3
#6104 5 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

And now, what? We're back to paper and foamcore ramps? Black and white art glued down to a white wood? Has progress backslid that badly that the supposedly finished cabinets are no longer viable, or is he just posting random, horribly out of date MG photos?

No, this is a testing whitewood with working flippers. There is no need to use a printed playfield for testing. John posted a video of it yesterday. It actually was impressive. There's great music and sound, some very cool animations, and the inserts have nice colors and are working during gameplay. After seeing this the project does not appear to be dead at all. I don't understand how people can say no programming has been done when I'm seeing sound, music, speech, animations, and controlled lighting.

#6105 5 years ago
Quoted from Pinballmike217:

I don't understand how people can say no programming has been done when I'm seeing sound, music, speech, animations, and controlled lighting.

There WAS a programmer. He stopped getting paid and left. There currently is NO programmer. So the state of it is the same state it has been in for some time (years apparently, MG reportedly was in this flippable stage 18 months ago). So it's been sitting there since.

If these videos were shown in 2012 there would be no grumbling. But we're years late and no game plan anyone is aware of to finish it.

#6106 5 years ago
Quoted from Pinballmike217:

No, this is a testing whitewood with working flippers. There is no need to use a printed playfield for testing. John posted a video of it yesterday. It actually was impressive. There's great music and sound, some very cool animations, and the inserts have nice colors and are working during gameplay. After seeing this the project does not appear to be dead at all. I don't understand how people can say no programming has been done when I'm seeing sound, music, speech, animations, and controlled lighting.

Maybe it's not "dead" but considering the amount of time that has passed I would have thought the game would be much further along. There still appears to be a ton of work left to do and the money and resources left available to John is questionable. Also, the fact that John appears to be ignoring refund requests is absolutely concerning.

10
#6107 5 years ago

Well, and add to this the length of time we've seen other companies need from taking "finished" prototype games to shows to actually delivering them to customers. Forgetting about the Predator debacle, just consider MMR, WOZ, Hobbit and Full Throttle. And those are all produced in factories with real staff.

And we aren't even CLOSE to those games mentioned above when they needed another year or so to come out.

So it's the head-in-the-sand aspect as well, pretending that everything is cool and ignoring customers' concerns.

Lots to be concerned about.

#6108 5 years ago

Time for a Hitler video yet?

#6109 5 years ago
Quoted from pinstor12:

Time for a Hitler video yet?

Think there was one a while back.

#6110 5 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

He stopped getting paid and left. There currently is NO programmer. So the state of it is the same state it has been in for some time (years apparently, MG reportedly was in this flippable stage 18 months ago). So it's been sitting there since.

Based on jpop's history, it would not surprise me if by now he has conned a new developer into working for him. And also based on history, he is likely starting from scratch, since Jpop probably has a new vision for the software, and a lot of developers never like what the last guy did (or it was not in the language, they like or it is was not documented, etc.), and want to do it their way, which is another big downside of switching developers mid project, yet again). So, if my hunch is right, and unless jpop finds some magic dust to sprinkle on things, add another year or two. Of course if my hunch is wrong and he has not conned a new developer, well then add . . .

#6111 5 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

Based on jpop's history, it would not surprise me if by now he has conned a new developer into working for him. And also based on history, he is likely starting from scratch, since Jpop probably has a new vision for the software, and a lot of developers never like what the last guy did (or it was not in the language, they like or it is was not documented, etc.), and want to do it their way, which is another big downside of switching developers mid project, yet again). So, if my hunch is right, and unless jpop finds some magic dust to sprinkle on things, add another year or two. Of course if my hunch is wrong and he has not conned a new developer, well then add . . .

Well, we basically were almost at that point when FAST/Mission was looking at it. It would have been a complete re-do. But at least there'd be SOMEONE working on it.

Right now it's no one, and you bring up good points about it being hard to just come in and continue someone else's work. It will likely be a re-do no matter who takes it over.

Of course, lets not let that distract us from these groovy white wood videos of 2-year-old work and pretend everything is good.

23
#6112 5 years ago

This whole situation is just really sad. If the project goes down in flames and people lose a ton of money, I can envision a future where JPop will no longer even be welcome at shows. To go from one of the most celebrated modern designers to being blackballed from the community would be such a tragedy.

-3
#6113 5 years ago

Would he be welcome now? I can imagine an angry mob with people coming just to confront him. I can see someone getting angry enough to beat his ass. The money that MG cost is not pocket change to 99% of the people and I for one wouldn't have a problem with taking him out back. Now, I do not know how old JP is nor his physical stature and I consider it cowardly to get physical with someone who cannot defend himself so that might become a problem.

#6114 5 years ago

Link to hitler video plz. And I am a programmer in the community who would contribute maybe 5-10 hours per week if anyone wants to put jpop in touch with me. I know 20 languages and have sold two companies and just ipo'd a third a few weeks ago so my credentials should speak for themselves. The caveat being he would need to pitch his business to me and show me some numbers to get me on board and it sounds like jpop wouldn't be up for that... Link the video at least though plz

#6115 5 years ago
Quoted from Warbleboopie:

he would need to pitch his business to me and show me some numbers

Thats probably going to be an issue. But worth trying.

#6116 5 years ago
Quoted from gweempose:

This whole situation is just really sad. If the project goes down in flames and people lose a ton of money, I can envision a future where JPop will no longer even be welcome at shows. To go from one of the most celebrated modern designers to being blackballed from the community would be such a tragedy.

I would say he's crossed that mark already. I think if he goes to a show, there wouldn't be lanyards and beer at the pinside meet-up, but tomatoes and rotten eggs.

#6117 5 years ago
Quoted from zr11990:

Would he be welcome now?

At this very moment, probably not. If he were to attend a show without bringing a fully flipping game with some rudimentary software, he would have a lot of angry people to contend with.

#6118 5 years ago
Quoted from jonnyo:

I would say he's crossed that mark already.

I agree, but the situation is still potentially salvageable. If the worst case scenario happens and we don't get games or our money back, his reputation is ruined forever in a community that used to idolize him.

#6119 5 years ago

I don't want to speak to the specifics of this speculation, and at the risk of delving off-topic, but the reality is that we (the pinball community) lack a real standard pinball development platform and language on which our games are coded. PyProcGame might be as close as we get, as it is the most widely used, but that disregards other established/working low-level approaches like FreeWPC, the Parallax/Heckboard, and probably others.

You and I both know all too well that there's a lack of solutions that enable full motion video of the type that JPop wants to do on this pin (see my prior post linking to areas of the website that show some very pretty HD video content).

Until we, as a pinball programming community, start working together and stop being down on whatever the next/last guy/gal is doing, we're all cursed to be working in little independent little circles and should be resigned to being pretty much being useless as replacements for the next/last guy. Certainly this problem isn't unique to pinball, but we really should all work together and rally around /something/.

Sorry if this sentiment is out of place here.

Quoted from rosh:

Based on jpop's history, it would not surprise me if by now he has conned a new developer into working for him. And also based on history, he is likely starting from scratch, since Jpop probably has a new vision for the software, and a lot of developers never like what the last guy did (or it was not in the language, they like or it is was not documented, etc.), and want to do it their way, which is another big downside of switching developers mid project, yet again). [..]

#6120 5 years ago
Quoted from Warbleboopie:

And I am a programmer in the community who would contribute maybe 5-10 hours per week if anyone wants to put jpop in touch with me.

Jpop is like a bug zapper for pinball engineers.

#6121 5 years ago

"Look at the beautiful light... I want to go toward the light... food and sex are at the light..."

ZAAAP!

"What's that crackling noise? It's over by the light... the beautiful light... food and sex are the light..."

#6122 5 years ago
Quoted from Warbleboopie:

And I am a programmer in the community who would contribute maybe 5-10 hours per week if anyone wants to put jpop in touch with me.

I've felt that way in the past, but have talked to too many people who have done work for him, and their message was always the same -- run away. So now if I ever feel like that I lie down in bed until the feeling passes.

#6123 5 years ago

Cliff Notes version for those just joining:

Multi-year delays
Unpaid vendors
Doesn't get along with others
No clear production/build path
Whitewashed communication
Ignored refund requests
In breach of own contract
No programmer
No completed design(s)
Missed reveals
Re-posted media as stalling tactic

#6124 5 years ago

Not sure if this is active, didn't work on y iPad

Quoted from John_I:

OK, yet another Hitler video:
http://meemsy.com/v/26799

#6125 5 years ago
Quoted from Mocean:

Until we, as a pinball programming community, start working together and stop being down on whatever the next/last guy/gal is doing, we're all cursed to be working in little independent little circles and should be resigned to being pretty much being useless as replacements for the next/last guy. Certainly this problem isn't unique to pinball, but we really should all work together and rally around /something/.
Sorry if this sentiment is out of place here.

I agree, but I don't know that it would be successful. We all have different ideas of what an appropriate architecture would look like even down to what language should be used. I personally think python isn't a great language, and would pretty much do anything to avoid it. I've been REALLY spoiled by .NET.

The hardware isn't exactly open either. For me to be involved in a project like this it would take unhindered access to both the hardware and the software. The designs for both would have to be released under a GPL license, unless I'm getting paid. Barring a world where all the different hardware builders come together and decide on a common board-to-board protocol or something, I don't see everyone aligning their egos to one hardware platform.

I'd like to help current platforms become stronger options, but I also don't put up with politics and ego on a project I'm not getting paid for. Just my 2 cents.

#6126 5 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

I agree, but I don't know that it would be successful. We all have different ideas of what an appropriate architecture would look like even down to what language should be used. I personally think python isn't a great language, and would pretty much do anything to avoid it. I've been REALLY spoiled by .NET.
The hardware isn't exactly open either. For me to be involved in a project like this it would take unhindered access to both the hardware and the software. The designs for both would have to be released under a GPL license, unless I'm getting paid. Barring a world where all the different hardware builders come together and decide on a common board-to-board protocol or something, I don't see everyone aligning their egos to one hardware platform.
I'd like to help current platforms become stronger options, but I also don't put up with politics and ego on a project I'm not getting paid for. Just my 2 cents.

I do a bit of python.. it's not the most beautiful of languages and very annoying/ugly when indentation gets dicked up. What a terrible idea.

#6127 5 years ago

(Open letter to John)

John,

It’s pretty obvious at this point that you’re not able to produce any of the machines you’ve designed. You’ve taken good people’s money and I would bet you wish there was a good way out of this mess. As I see it you have three options:

1) Give, and I do stress the word give, your machines designs to Stern. They can use your designs, assign programmers to the project, build machines to supply pre-order customers then run as many machines as they want to turn a profit. You would also need to turn over whatever pre-order money you have left to Stern and as they could absorb any overrun costs as payment for your design. You walk away with no money, your customers get the machines they were promised and your reputation as a great designer and good guy is preserved. This is by far the best plan to accomplish your goals IMO.

2) Refund whatever pre-order money is left proportionately to your customers and fold Zidware. Your customer will be somewhat unhappy unless all of their money is returned and you get out of this mess. Depending on the amount you can refund your customers will dictate damage to your reputation and possible legal actions.

3) You stay on your present course. As you’re aware legal action is already being taken by your customers. You expose yourself to possibly very damaging civil and maybe criminal charges. I’m guessing on the criminal charges part. One of our many attorneys could comment further on the amount of this risk. Your reputation will be irreparably damaged which would be an absolute shame as you’re a great designer and generally a good guy.

It’s obvious you’re way in over your head and I sincerely hope you at least attempt the first option as I believe it would be the best outcome for everyone. If you have any issue with pride put them aside and avoid the mess that would surely ensue if you don’t do something in a reasonable timeframe. This is all my opinion and a humble suggestion to try and turn a bad situation good.

#6128 5 years ago
Quoted from jonnyo:

Cliff Notes version for those just joining:
Multi-year delays
Unpaid vendors
Doesn't get along with others
No clear production/build path
Whitewashed communication
Ignored refund requests
In breach of own contract
No programmer
No completed design(s)
Missed reveals
Re-posted media as stalling tactic

Time to start preparing to go to court and sue this guy for fraud.

Embezzlement is a kind of property theft. It occurs when a defendant, who was entrusted to manage or monitor someone else’s money or property, steals all or part of that money or property for the defendant’s personal gain. The key is that the defendant had legal access to another’s money or property, but not legal ownership of it. Taking the money or property for the defendant’s own gain is stealing; when combined with the fact that this stealing was also a violation of a special position of trust, you have the unique crime of embezzlement. Nuff Said.

#6129 5 years ago

Last year at MGC he showed up with Kiss. I'm afraid to think about what "surprises" he's been working on that might show up this year. I guess we'll find out soon.

#6130 5 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

Last year at MGC he showed up with Kiss. I'm afraid to think about what "surprises" he's been working on that might show up this year. I guess we'll find out soon.

I can't imagine he'd show up there, but then again he showed up at Expo and Terry's Pinexplosion last fall so who knows. We'll see this Saturday.

#6131 5 years ago
Quoted from Kneissl:

I do a bit of python.. it's not the most beautiful of languages and very annoying/ugly when indentation gets dicked up. What a terrible idea.

Not sure how you define 'beautiful', I've not been using python that long, but I think the indentation as a requirement in order for code to properly work has huge benefits in insuring readability, so not sure how you can say annoying/ugly when it gets messed up, other then yes, your code won't run correctly it it is not indented correctly. It also keeps the code less cluttered and easier to read, imo, since you don't have a million braces all over the place.

Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

I've been REALLY spoiled by .NET.

I can't real comment on .net, I've spent the last 15+ years working at start-up companies that all have used open source technologies, so the typical LAMP stack.

#6132 5 years ago
Quoted from chessiv:

1) Give, and I do stress the word give, your machines designs to Stern. They can use your designs, assign programmers to the project, build machines to supply pre-order customers then run as many machines as they want to turn a profit. You would also need to turn over whatever pre-order money you have left to Stern and as they could absorb any overrun costs as payment for your design. You walk away with no money, your customers get the machines they were promised and your reputation as a great designer and good guy is preserved. This is by far the best plan to accomplish your goals IMO.

Stern, completely drunk and being the most generous people they could ever be... WOULD NEVER DO THIS. This project is way too tainted for them to be interested in salvaging. And why would they be interested at all? The good of the hobby? They have designers and a system setup to make games and stay in business... Another thought, this thing is WAY more complex to assemble compared to an average Stern. They would likely not offer to do it, or be interested at all based on that part alone.

And to just go ahead and put this topic away while we are at it...

JJP won't either. They don't have enough money to build Hobbit, let alone this game.

Spooky is too busy (and way to smart) to get sucked up into the black hole of Zidware.

#6133 5 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

Not sure how you define 'beautiful', I've not been using python that long, but I think the indentation as a requirement in order for code to properly work has huge benefits in insuring readability, so not sure how you can say annoying/ugly when it gets messed up, other then yes, your code won't run correctly it it is not indented correctly. It also keeps the code less cluttered and easier to read, imo, since you don't have a million braces all over the place.

If I had the choice I'd take braces every time.
wd932o.jpg

#6134 5 years ago
Quoted from RomstarArkanoid:

Stern, completely drunk and being the most generous people they could ever be... WOULD NEVER DO THIS. This project is way too tainted for them to be interested in salvaging. And why would they be interested at all? The good of the hobby? They have designers and a system setup to make games and stay in business... Another thought, this thing is WAY more complex to assemble compared to an average Stern. They would likely not offer to do it, or be interested at all based on that part alone.
And to just go ahead and put this topic away while we are at it...
JJP won't either. They don't have enough money to build Hobbit, let alone this game.
Spooky is too busy (and way to smart) to get sucked up into the black hole of Zidware.

Not for the good of the hobby or being generous, for profit. They get a cool design and don't have to pay John a dime. I agree it's a long shot but stranger things have happened. Trying to think of any way people can get their machine.

#6135 5 years ago

Indentation is a more elegant way to do the structuring than braces (which should be inline, mind you; read "Code Complete"). But static compilation in .NET is so much nicer for large projects than Python.

#6136 5 years ago
Quoted from Kneissl:

If I had the choice I'd take braces every time.

Sure, and I agree, but if you're letting that be your deciding factor in choosing a language, that's like choosing a sledge hammer over a ball peen because you dislike the color of the handle. Both have their place and their time when appropriate.

There's so much more to Python than the way whitespace is handled. The language includes so much that it should also include an alternate compiler just so people who get hung up on this issue can still get to really appreciate all that the language offers.

#6137 5 years ago
Quoted from chessiv:

Not for the good of the hobby or being generous, for profit. They get a cool design and don't have to pay John a dime. I agree it's a long shot but stranger things have happened. Trying to think of any way people can get their machine.

Yeah, there's not a chance in hell of this happening. For one thing, John would never give up total control of these projects.-He'd want to be involved. And secondly Stern wouldn't want to deal with him or any of his baggage on this project. And Stern wouldn't be interested in making such limited release games as the profit just isn't there.

If there is one take-away from all this that could benefit pinball it's that JPop's artist is pretty damn good! Stern, JJP, or Spooky should hire this guy to do some future games.

Another question. Does JPop even have the licensing required to do AIW?

#6138 5 years ago

Why doesn't Iceman get on a plane and visit Popaduik in person?

That's the only way to confront him. Too easy to ignore emails, phone calls, etc.

#6139 5 years ago
Quoted from MikeS:

And Stern wouldn't be interested in making such limited release games as the profit just isn't there.

Whoa Nellie, anyone? The Pin? Stern's been doing a lot of wacky stuff these days (MMr) ...if it keeps the factory busy, you never know - they could be down with it. As long as they get paid! So - someone besides Jpop would have to set up this type of deal.

-1
#6140 5 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Whoa Nellie, anyone? The Pin? Stern's been doing a lot of wacky stuff these days (MMr) ...if it keeps the factory busy, you never know - they could be down with it. As long as they get paid! So - someone besides Jpop would have to set up this type of deal.

The difference is that both "The Pin" and "Whoa Nellie" were Stern projects from the inception. Something like Magic Girl was done using proprietary parts and technologies. Stern would need to basically start over from scratch to build the game the "Stern" way. And what would be done for all the parts that were already ordered and to the vendors that haven't been paid? It's just too messy for Stern to get involved with. If I were Stern I'd hire JPop's artist and design my own AIW. That would be much easier....

#6141 5 years ago
Quoted from MikeS:

Stern would need to basically start over from scratch to build the game the "Stern" way. And what would be done for all the parts that were already ordered and to the vendors that haven't been paid? It's just too messy for Stern to get involved with..

Oh, yeah - you're right - I'm sure it would never happen...but I think Chuck's point is that even that unlikely Stern scenario is MORE likely to result in a game being built than the current situation.

#6142 5 years ago
Quoted from MikeS:

The difference is that both "The Pin" and "Whoa Nellie" were Stern projects from the inception.

Absolutely not for Whoa Nellie...
This project started years (and light years) before Stern was involved.

#6143 5 years ago
Quoted from MikeS:

Yeah, there's not a chance in hell of this happening. For one thing, John would never give up total control of these projects.-He'd want to be involved. And secondly Stern wouldn't want to deal with him or any of his baggage on this project. And Stern wouldn't be interested in making such limited release games as the profit just isn't there.
If there is one take-away from all this that could benefit pinball it's that JPop's artist is pretty damn good! Stern, JJP, or Spooky should hire this guy to do some future games.
Another question. Does JPop even have the licensing required to do AIW?

I am sure that AIW is old enough to be public domain.

#6144 5 years ago
Quoted from jlm33:

Absolutely not for Whoa Nellie...
This project started years (and light years) before Stern was involved.

That's true. I don't really consider the original Whoa Nellie and the Stern version to be much alike. The artwork and playfield are similar (Stern version has differences like no gobble hole) but other than that it's a completely different game as Stern basically had to start over from scratch from a design standpoint. I'd also venture to guess that they play drastically different since the original was done as an EM and the Stern version is solid state.

I think for one of JPop's games to be completed by Stern the same thing would have to happen. Stern would use a few of the design elements and the artwork, but largely it would have to be a brand design from the ground up. I don't think the work that JPop has done would really save Stern very much development time.

#6145 5 years ago

The link worked, that website just doesn't work on iPad.

Best line:

"It's OK they will just have to wait another 3 years"

Not sure if this is active, didn't work on y iPad
John_I said:
OK, yet another Hitler video:
http://meemsy.com/v/26799

#6146 5 years ago
Quoted from jonnyo:

Cliff Notes version for those just joining:
Multi-year delays
Unpaid vendors
Doesn't get along with others
No clear production/build path
Whitewashed communication
Ignored refund requests
In breach of own contract
No programmer
No completed design(s)
Missed reveals
Re-posted media as stalling tactic

"Doesn't get along with others"

Nailed it! As I got out in the 1st few months after a 5min phone call with J pop... He was rude and cocky on the phone to me a customer supporting his project. After over a month went by and I couldn't even get a direct response on a confirmation of my deposit I was out. It took over 3 months for me to get my deposit back after requesting it and this was early on.

#6147 5 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

Not sure how you define 'beautiful', I've not been using python that long, but I think the indentation as a requirement in order for code to properly work has huge benefits in insuring readability, so not sure how you can say annoying/ugly when it gets messed up, other then yes, your code won't run correctly it it is not indented correctly. It also keeps the code less cluttered and easier to read, imo, since you don't have a million braces all over the place.

The spacing doesn't bother me so much, but just for reference, all code written in Visual Studio is auto-aligned to be properly indented, even if it's not required by the language. I don't see indention as a feature of a language, it's more of a proper programming methodology.

Quoted from rosh:

I can't real comment on .net, I've spent the last 15+ years working at start-up companies that all have used open source technologies, so the typical LAMP stack.

I use several technology stacks regularly, including LAMP. They all have pros and cons. As far as coding environments/IDEs go though, Visual Studio just lays shame to any other option out there. Don't get confused by the name, it has nothing to do with visual drag and drop to design interfaces. Technically you could use VS for developing python, which I would recommend trying.

I've mentioned this before, but I used to be a open source purist. I developed in text editors, had make files, and thought Microsoft was evil. There are very few languages I can't code in. I can even still do assembly (with a good lookup, lol). I firmly believe that almost no amount of man hours devoted to open source can make up for the money/effort that MSFT has put into .NET/VS.

I don't want to derail the JPop thread with a debate on python vs other languages, but I think python isn't the best choice for pinball programming. I'd be willing to debate it in another thread devoted to that if anyone wants to.

#6148 5 years ago

We need an "I've Been Jpop'd" t-shirt to wear at shows now.

#6149 5 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Whoa Nellie, anyone? The Pin? Stern's been doing a lot of wacky stuff these days (MMr) ...if it keeps the factory busy, you never know - they could be down with it. As long as they get paid! So - someone besides Jpop would have to set up this type of deal.

WHBJM has a few key differences.

1) It was designed in part by a Stern employee
2) It is not John

MMr was a difficult process to go through, one they are hesitant to do again. Compare building an MG with MMr, or WHBJM. It's not just more difficult to build, it is a different beast entirely.

#6150 5 years ago
Quoted from MikeS:

If I were Stern I'd hire JPop's artist and design my own AIW. That would be much easier....

If Stern were to hire John they would have one big problem. John. Many of the designers active at the end of WMS found homes in similar fields or with other companies doing the same. Many, but not all. Makes you wonder.

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Playfield - Decals
Flashinstinct
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