John has however long the Skit-B shitstorm lasts to get his shit together.

Once they're done there, they'll move into him.

I am so torn about all of this. On one hand, I really want my game, the game I know he can produce that will be a crown jewel. On the other hand, man, we've been through this again and again with him. I was just thinking about that project manager. By his own admission something he needs, and then he'll do stupid shit like stop taking his calls.

If that is the personality we're dealing with, how can this turn around? Man, so frustrating.

Pay attention to Ben. He has been the closest and knows the most.

Everybody appreciates the leadership you've put in here. But knowing John's difficulties, he could put you in the "go down with the ship" situation if he uses you to give people confidence to put more money into the project and then it dies anyway because JPop is JPop.

I really don't know anything about John's state of affairs.

I just know how the world works.

yeah, I think the danger here is raising more money for a project that may never happen.

So, Ice, whatever money he needs to finish the 19 MGs.. that is on John. Either the "investor" he is looking for, or a bank loan on his house, or something. No crowd funding and putting more pinheads at risk.

I think if he can get those 19 MGs made though, and at the same time 3 RAZA prototypes... at that time it would be fair to open up for some extra MG orders, collect the raza payments, etc.

But until then he's going to have to figure out the money to get there.

I'm not going to go into the issues that I have with Aaron/FAST again (it was covered in the Predator thread) but I will say this in terms of how it relates to Ice: it is two different things. Ice has money invested in this as a buyer. He isn't someone who hopes to gain a business advantage by having JPop succeed like Aaron/FAST did with Skit-B.

Ice's only goal here is to get the game produced. He has shown that he can be just as critical of JPop, publicly, as anyone, even after talking to JPop personally.

That said, I completely understand what he's saying about being concerned of possibly getting F'ed by actually getting involved and trying to help. Terrible position to be in for sure. No good deed and all that stuff.

I don't think he will ever change. He has zero sense of urgency or any willingness to accept help.
Really too bad.

If anyone else was the president of Zidware they would have figured out by now their customers are beyond frustrated, angry, and feel lied to. I don't think Jpop has that sense.

Johns not paying for a license so there's no pressure there... He's not going to get help from jack, I highly doubt stern will help... The walls are caving in... Sucks he waited this long for help

Love ur work on the one handed flipper Ben!

As I've already said in this thread of course Aaron would profit from selling hardware to John. That's the best part about it, he's motivated to do it by his own personal motives. That's the kind of guy I want on a project, he's not doing it "for the love of pinball", he's trying to show off his wares in a high profile situation.

That's the guy who's gonna not give up, who's gonna go the extra mile. I trust people with motives I can understand more.

I don't think it matters, FAST and Mission aren't gonna work with John. You can't build a relationship with someone who keeps leaving you hanging. They've offered twice, he's hemmed and hawed twice, you don't try a third time. Walk the F away.

You know, depending on how JPOP has chosen to insulate himself and his family (if he really has at all) and depending on other factors, litigation may be able to "pierce the corporate veil" and put him personally, and by extension his family, at risk. If being responsible for the financial collapse of his family doesn't motivate him.... F this. And F him. Let's just file a complaint seeking to get at his personal (aka family) assets and negotiate from a position of strength - not this bullshit "well I guess this goes however John wants it to go" attitude.

No need for a class action, and all the rule 23 crap, just a good old multi-Plaintiff ass whooping before he wastes any more of our money fancying himself a real pinball designer.

Building anything beyond a prototype or two in your garage/1200 square foot warehouse space is pretty much impossible. The elements of designing a pinball machine are exciting to creative minds and I can see why. This leads said creative minds to venture forth with the making of a prototype machine when they haven't the first clue about the pearls of production. Production is a completely different animal. It's also hard work; factory work, something most all creative minds don't really care for. Therefore, the complex elements that need to be put into place for production are not given much thought during the creative, fun, exciting time period of game development and prototype building. Once the prototype is more or less built the mission has been accomplished in the mind of its creator. This is unfortunate and leads to a mostly working prototype machine with no plans in place as how to manufacture it in quantity.

I know 100 or 250 units don't sound like big numbers, and they aren't if you have a fully functioning assembly house like Stern has. However, if you are starting with zero means to manufacture, even 20 units is a big number. Seriously. Ask Charlie over at Spooky Pinball how big of a number 150 is (the planned number of AMH machines). He'll tell you its a much larger number than you could ever imagine if you have nothing in place to accomplish the mission. He started from scratch, did the right things the right way, way worked hard, very hard, watched his pennies, didn't get caught in an endless designing phase loop, and it STILL took him over a year to put out his first machine. This is a best case scenario, most others who try will come up short of this feat.

I know it's turned into a joke, but *building pinball machines is hard*. Couple that with the fact that the prepay model is dead and you have a recipe for lots of failure in 2015.

In no way do I want to see the failure of any so called pinball machine manufacturing companies. It's not good for the hobby and it's not good for any entities that do business inside the hobby.

Unfortunately I see no reason for Ben's statement to not be 100% true.

Ice, your efforts in this matter are appreciated, even from those with no horse in the race. Looking backwards, someone like you in the predator journey would have been far more useful to me than Mr X. So I would beg you to stay.

I understand your perpective (you do not want to be tainted with JPop if it fails).
What I suggest is not to remain alone. JPop buyers should designate a few other "official" delegates to keep the project going forward.

He is in way over his head and no one truly knows this situation. What we do know looks almost as bad as SkitB, minus the license issue........If I was anyone, I would refrain from defending him. Let John defend himself, let John explain himself........

I don't think any of these options will work. Spooky is the wildcard, but with their production rates taking on additional work poses several challenges.

I sincerely doubt Stern will touch this with a 10ft pole. Some stuff was learned when working on MMR, taking on ZW's stuff being the hot mess it is seems like a stretch.

JJP is having a hard enough time as it is getting their games out the door, let alone keeping current. Not sure how that would work, or if it even could work.

He does, his wife is listed as the secretary on his corporate filing, it's public knowledge not hard to look up.

Completely agree. About 2 years ago, our engineering team of 4 piloted 40 units of a new product in a day so we could learn how production works and you know what? It sucks! Building anything with more than a couple dozen parts even with minimal fixturing is tiring, and takes more concentration that you realize to make sure you're building it correctly. Building a pinball is much worse because if you screw up, not only are you wasting an expensive playfield, it's all linear (IE all the parts you just attached to said playfield have to be removed and reworked to the next one if you want to remain profitable)

Totally not surprised. The expected result. Although I suspected it would have happened later after they invested more real time and energy.

He couldn't get hired by Stern to do a machine for them.and lets face it Stern brought EVERYBODy out of retirement.

Think about that.

Does anyone know how much of the pre-order money went into funding the start up of Zidware, John's shop and all of the equipment?

Ice, thinking about this, your involvement and what we learned from Predator....

Whenever you have a conversation with him, you can't report back to us "everything is cool, money is fine, 2 weeks, trust me, etc"

I think you'll have to have clear questions, and report back his answers to those questions. But there can't be anything "off the record" any more. And if he wants to have off the record conversations you'll have to recuse yourself to not be involved in any more stalling or coverups.

Where Aaron went wrong and why he got caught in the skit-b shit storm was he was one of the main defenders, his words went a long way with quelling the critics. He might have been trying to help, but he went way over and got caught because of it. I'll go by your assessment of him that he was too nice for his own good.

So learning from that, I think it is possible to be involved in some way trying to save the games, but not to the point where you become an unintentional propaganda tool.

There is still a real risk of failure with these games. As Ben pointed out, basic math is a problem here, and in reality that will bring everything down.

I agree and just like Predator, Big Lewboski, or any future drama, the vast majority of noise and vitriol will come from those with nothing invested. It is the state of Pinside.

Proverb: "Empty barrels always make the most noise"

At this point, if another phone call happens, will anyone believe one word of it?

Not if it includes this:

"everything is cool, money is fine, 2 weeks, trust me, etc"

I'd say John doesn't even know the answer to that. I'm sure it was much more than it should have been.

At this point, would it even help his reputation if he showed everyone a working prototype? Normally I would think so, but maybe too much time has passed for that to happen.

I don't think doing this stuff remotely is going to work.

Someone needs to be there in person, standing beside him. Phonecalls and emails are too easy to ignore.

That's the only way anything is going to happen - in person.

[posted simialr info in the Skit-B thread in response to somebody saying the 2 situations were similar, which I disagree with.]

Regarding a"working prototype," I've seen both games in person recently. John probably could have put together a basic flipping whitewood a couple of years ago, if he put in the basic hardware and software first with some general pin components. But anyone can do that, and John knows that (and has done it before). His approach (as a designer, I guess) is to design a full game first, and then "bring it to life" with known hardware and programming pieces. Which is why MG already looks like a production game and RAZA looks like one with just a few pieces to be finalized and bolted down. Kinda like sewing a Frankenstein body together first, and the last step being zapping it with a lightning bolt.

I agree completely that more info directly from John would be great and appropriate, if not important/critical right now. I do know John has 1 or 2 real options for manufacturing in place. There are a bunch of these types of companies around Chicago still. Saw pics of the space for one of them. But it may be a confidentiality issue (or still considering other options) preventing more details being made public yet--I didn't ask.

I understand why many of his customers are feeling anxious, based on the lack of communication and delays. But I also feel, based on what I've seen and discussed, that the concerns are largely unwarranted. (Speaking only for myself here!) And i totally agree, more info has to come from John himself. We talk periodically, and my #1 mission right now is to be in touch more frequently and implore him to get more info out publicly. Wish me lick!

Lick??

Easy there big guy!!

On a serious note, if he just shows a working game, I think most of this noise goes away.

Good lick!

If you're implying I'm getting paid by Zidware, you are 100% wrong. I just want to clarify this. I volunteered to help John a few years ago with some patent stuff, and have done so along with some other legal assistance (e.g. a trademark filing or 2, the lease for his workshop). And I'm doing this pro bono. Not charging John a penny for my services. Why? because i love pinball, love his earlier games, want to see these new games get made, and I think it's cool to be a part of a new pinball venture. (Truth be told, I offered to help JJP early on too, but Jack already had an IP lawyer.) And I have regular big clients for my day job that pay the bills, so I can indulge in this fun aspect of my profession.

As for the apparently discrepancy in the above statements, they aren't quite so incongruous. What I meant by the lack of a cash crunch is that based on the pre-orders and amount remaining due from both titles, there is enough money (based on what I was told, with no evidence to the contrary) to complete and build the games. And that there are waiting lists. Obviously making more MGs would add a cushion.

As with any startup/new company that needs parts inventories for product, if a ton of people demand refunds, then yeah, there wouldn't be enough to finish the games and ship them. Because there are startup and development costs. They have to be amortized over the total run of games. Once the startup/development costs are covered by X number of games, then selling more games is where the profits start, which represent basically the difference between the selling price and the parts/mfg costs. And with the small runs of both MG and RAZA that were announced, there doesn't seem to be a huge cushion. If the full runs remain paid for, then I think all should work out based on what I've been generally told. (Iceman could probably speak to this better at some point!) If each run is cut in half, then yeah, there probably would not be enough left over beyond parts/mfg expenses to cover development costs.

But from everything I've seen and heard over the past few years, I don't see any deceit going on here at all. Just a great designer with his own quirks who tends to focus on finalizing the layout/artwork/toys/design first, with audio and video clips, and saving the 'standard' hardware control and programming for the end. Clearly he has never focused on getting a basic whitewood flipping, and instead has been testing new toys/components individually with mock-ups/prototypes. The parts he has designed, printed, and purchased to date are basically production quality. And I do agree, it would really change things if he got the MG prototypes wired in and flipping sooner rather than later. (the cabling layout i in place, btw.)

Agree 100%. Not only that, but the excitement would probably kick in, as it should. I think he is actually understanding this now and focusing on it. I will not hesitate to remind him of this too!!!

And spellcheck did not help me here, unfortunately.

I agree. The community can no longer abide by people taking our money to send us a game then take over 4 years to produce it all while not providing some sort or communication that will give us an idea on when the pin will be delivered. It is time to tell customers and fans what the heck is going on. Then deliver the pins in short order.

Even if we haven't ordered one of these games, we're ALL invested. When these things become shady and ultimately crash and burn like Predator, it causes a negative ripple effect throughout the whole hobby.

Absolutely.

Is it time to raid the castle and take anything not bolted down? Love medieval madness

You're not getting paid? Not even a free machine?

And you just admitted that your knowledge of Zidware's cash reserve is based on what he "told" you. That sounds like Skit-B fanboy ignorance. John has been proven, as a matter of fact, to have lied before, he has no credibility (not after his lie about Fast/Mission being involved in october, and at the same time, saying he doesn't lie to delay).

My comment was directed to those that post condescending insults, legal advice from Judge Judy and boast of their psychic abilities to predict the past.

It was the Big Lewboski before, Predator now, Jpop next.

While I agree that the two situations are not exactly the same I do find some striking similarities. John's lack of communication with his owners is nearly as non-existent as Skit-B's. Just like Kevin, as the situation has become more toxic here on Pinside, he has retreated even further from the scene, leaving communication through third parties as his only conduit for disseminating information regarding his projects. I also believe that JPOP has been deceitful with regards to timelines and the completion status of MG and RAZA. He has falsely stated that he has working agreements with outside vendors/resources.

If there is no "cash crunch", then why is John stiffing parts vendors?

Isn't this their prerogative to do? The toxic environment surrounding these projects has been created by no one except John himself. He has repeatedly misled the people who have propped up his projects financially. What right does he have to hold onto their money if they want it back? After years of missed deadlines and now an outright communication shutdown, John should fully expect a run on the bank. Denying refunds at this juncture because it would surely doom the project is just arrogant and wrong.

Oh.. Ok. This makes a lot more sense now.. Why you're the one guy that's worked with him that didn't run away. John expects everyone else to work like this as well..

I have volunteered (repeatedly!) to playtest a proto MG when ready. Have yet to get a direct answer. John did send me a color print of a developmental bg sample (on paper), tho. [to be fully clear, he did reserve me a spot for RAZA before they sold out, and has not asked for prepayment on it.]

I think John was going to work with FAST/Mission after they visited him during expo in october. And then appears to have second thoughts, based at least in part on some technical concerns. So would you rather he stick with a verbal agreement to collaborate that he doesn't think is in the best interest of getting the games done? You've probably just heard one side of the story, btw.

I seriously hope you are incorrect regarding the fanboy aspect. There is more to the story in the things that you (and others) mention, and nothing close to the lack-of-license Skit-B debacle. i have seen John only being frugal and not wasteful in all his development work. So yeah, sticking with him would kill my credibility if he's been lying to me too. But the biggest resource he may have expended is his own innumerable hours in the shop. dealing with all these people and details mostly by himself. More public disclosure would be great. Hoping for that soon.

Not true. Artists, audio, some video, many components--all been/being handled by vendors and contractors who have done their part and/or are ready to supply parts for manufacture. But those are the ones who don't complain! (Think about it. John is pretty picky and detail-oriented in my experience, btw.)

Let's just make sure we're setting the record straight here:

John posted (it's public now!) that he was working with FAST/Mission in October. And never bothered to actually tell them that. Whatever he did with "second thoughts" later, the announcement was made without their knowledge or an agreement in place. They were not working with him.

It appears they are not working with him now, again, but who can tell anymore.

I straight up simply don't believe John's words. There is literally nothing he can say that will convince me of anything. I'll want a video if he tells me the sun is going to rise tomorrow.

So he needs to show games, and like right now, or I believe people absolutely should run on the bank and demand their money back. He's broken his contract, he's way overdue, and he doesn't get to play the privileged artist card anymore. If he had some special reveal he wanted to make then he's had his shot. No more "people will steal my ideas!" or any of that nonsense.

Show the games, or throw in the towel is my stance. If John wants to save his project and reputation he's gotta stop hiding. But the owners should do whatever they feel is right.

Everyone realized there are no actual "games" yet right? He could show a flipping proto tomorrow and you're still looking at another year of development, minimum.

Uhh... John said this in October:

"We were able to solidify an ongoing working arrangement with Mission Pinball and Fast Pinball guys from Seattle last week. Effectively doubling our backend team."

which was completely NEWS to FAST/Mission until just a couple of weeks ago. There was never anything more than an introductory meeting. Yet look at the specific words used to announce it.

Now I can read into it that John wanted SOMETHING to announce because he was getting so much heat after expo from the owners. So he threw out something that wasn't even true or accurate.

And that is only one of many announcements like it.

Here's another lovely nugget from October:

"I have a new project manager starting today and we will see how he fits in. He is a pinball guy, so most of the parts he knows, but not so much my process or style and is a PM for a large company. We have set a date to show magic girl, on a rug, for mid december and I will now work on the raza schedule and report back soon which will be after that. I still have some vendors to talk to and I am creating the transition plan for the Mission software guys."

And you want to keep telling us to chill out and trust him?

Did you pre-order one of his games? let's talk in TX.

Suck it frolic, I typed faster!

Maybe, but he writes in a more poetic way: