I'm starting to believe it.

I think this is the reason for me to. I just don't accept this kind of behavior from people I deal with.

Kevin is a nobody with a pinball machine that always looked like crap and caused too many bricked shots with its terrible layout. Him failing will not make it into the pinball history books.

Whereas Popaduik is a pinball legend. His fall will create ripples of conversation for decades.

edit:
Pat Lawlor: "My new machine will be amazing."
Jack: "Make sure you don't pull a JPOP."

Me too Ice.

When I used to employ 20 odd people in my furniture stores and sofa factory, I liked to take on people who I could sense had potential to "better themselves" and try and move them up the ladder of life a little. One guy was 18, working in a gas station, I could see he had a spark and I had him buying his own home 6 years later ($300,000 worth..)

However, I discovered that some people just can't be helped. They were unsavable. They would just internally sabotage any good things you tried to instil.

One guy in particular, he had a sofa factory, he made good sofas, but he went bust so I bought all his gear and gave him a job working for me running my factory. One day I go there and the guy has my staff making things for his own customers on the side. Whaaaat! That was 10 years ago, and that guy still lives in a caravan today. And he always will.

Downer.

rd.

Maybe I'm naive, but that's actually the reason I figured Jpop's games would happen. It seems like there is just way too much cash in the mix for them to be anything other than completed.

To the people who have skin in either game, the ripple effects will be just as significant whether it was John or Kevin who was the one taking their money and doling out false hope.

Down by the river.

For sure!

But I took the question to be which one's failure would have the more negative impact on (boutique) pinball as a whole.

I think a pinball legend going down in flames trying to make pinball machines has more of a negative impact than a hobbyist going down in flames.

Check my edit, the top designers at JJP and Stern will definitely be using the term "JPOP" in a different manner. I'm not just talking about money. When a book about the legends of pinball get made, the Zidware failure (if it happens), will be detailed. Kevin is a nobody.

As for the loss of the clients money, I can't really judge which one is worse right now. No point in taking sides.

Has anyone sent John a demand letter?

To me it is a case of which is heavier a 5K bag of sweet FA or a 17K bag?

Answer; both will weigh equally as heavy on pinball buyers shoulders for years to come, either you know (and will remember) what happened to boutique pinball this year or you don't/won't then the next likely-lad salesman will be rubbing his hands together.....and boy does he have a deal for you.

Individual reputations are another matter and here JPOP will have the far bigger fall from grace, IMHO (assuming Tony Hawk (aka ICE) doesn't teach either of them a handstand 180 move).

I don't think either one of them failing would have had massive impact on boutiques, but the combination of them both teetering on disaster, and then sprinkle on top of that MMr delays, JJP delays, the TBL sideshow with Phil, and all of a sudden you have a wave go across the ecosystem that leaves behind a sentiment of "no way in hell will I pre-order", which will have a significant dampening on boutiques.

Unfortunately what has created the most damage, is not the issues and the problems they have run in to, it is the total mishandling of communication around the issues that has created the greatest damage. Most folks here recognize that this is not easy stuff to do and most would be more than forgiving of issues and delays, and have been, however, no one likes being lied to, and whether it is a direct lie or a lie through omission it does not matter. As we have learned time and time again, ultimately the truth comes out and it is the 'cover up' and 'deceit' that is ultimately what brings things crashing down.

Setting aside some questionable business practices (e.g. not paying vendors and contractors), if Jpop and Kevin had treated their customers with open and honest communication, especially when the shit was hitting the fan, they would still be struggling with these challenges, but they would not have a mob with pitch forks ready to show up on their door step. In fact, they would likely be getting a ton of support, but as we have seen, even those that were giving them that support and defending them, are now finding that quite difficult to do.

It's sad that it's come to this conversation.

I guess it's all just a matter of perspective, but I always saw the difference as Jpop being the Absent Minded Professor, who if left to his own devices might invent Flubber, but also might be found dead in his lab because he forgot to eat without someone around to remind him.

I've never bought into this idea that he was some kind of seasoned vet with the miraculous ability to Do It All, he seems to be surrounded by myth. Look at how many people were buying into his project and were certain that he did his own art.

Beyond that, the idea that it was practical on any level to only build 20 machines, however expensive, was just silly. The work that goes into coding and doing the animations alone, for 20 people? Forget the buying of parts. The scale was never there. It's ridiculous. It makes no sense.

So to me it was never going to happen. Doesn't mean I was rooting for failure, I just didn't Believe. And I tried to help! Ask Doug, I was in it until the end. But I just don't have any capacity to be surprised.

The other side of the coin, the Some Kids in the Basement, it felt like maybe there really could be an indie pinball movement. P-ROC democratizing pinball, and hobbyists able to put together boutique runs on a scale that was reasonable. In the beginning Kevin seemed like a great ambassador for that. With hindsight there were numerous red flags of course, but I've followed this project from the start, and the excitement of One of Us rising up to help bring diversity back to the market was palpable.

I agree, you could frame it as the industry vet flaming out badly, vs the rube noob predictably crashing on take off. But the every man story I think has a compelling element that makes it more tragic, in that it becomes a weight around the neck of anyone else trying.

Either way, thank goodness for Spooky.

Agreed, 100%. So right.

And look at Stern, the successful giant. Most of the bitching about them revolves around poor communication too. Obviously we'd all like finished games on launch, they know that, and they're working on it. Stern isn't dumb.

But if Stern can just improve telling us what's going on people are amazingly patient. They just hate being left in the dark. And we tend to find a way to fill vacuums ourselves, even if it's just complaining and shit talking.

I'm hardly any kind of pinball product titan, I'm just some dude on a forum who likes to fart around with pinball mods. But I've always made my #1 priority to be a good communicator with my customers (and never take money before a product is ready) and it's so obviously palpable how much people appreciate it. And the truth is it's not that hard!

Sorry, wrong.

Don't forget VD:

Haven't tuned in for a bit..
but is now when we sing along to the Doors "The End"..
apologies ahead of time to owners who can't get their money back.. I was very close to being there.. several emails w/ Jpop... opportunity to get in on a RAZA owner that bailed... make a 1/2 deposit on AIW... waiting list for MG...
I'm disgusted with JPOP!

I've been reading this thread for months hoping it would eventually turn around but it's starting to look pretty bad.

I think the main thing that killed it is the prepay model... it rarely works, in any industry much less the pinball industry. It takes away all the initiative for someone to work hard or meet deadlines if they've already been paid in advance. It must be really hard to bust your ass for 3 years, AFTER you've been paid for it.

Ultimately it shows what a great job Spooky and Stern have done. Spooky just knocked that shit out, and Ben was working with Jpop in the beginning, the same could have happened there. With Jpop's pedigree they could have been churning out games every 6 months or so and the stuff would have been creative as hell. Spooky still has tons of great stuff coming down the road I'm sure, but imagine if all those machines were being designed by Jpop! It'd be on another level.

It seems like many times when a boutique starts out (plus JJP, which isn't boutique) it's in response to perceived or publicly stated complains about the way Stern does business... they're presented as the alternative, and ultimately it just makes Stern look like the better alternative. I've really got a lot of respect for Stern for doing things the old way, here's a machine, send us the money and you'll have it in a week.

Hopefully guys like Spooky doing such a great job will kind of show the way for others to follow along down that path and get boutique games designed, built, and shipped in a timely matter. Not every boutique is going to have a brilliant mind like Ben Heck helping them make it happen, though.

I don't think Jpop set out to scam people, but people have been locked up for less, i'm surprised he has let this go on so long, it's eventually going to get to a point where people are trying to get criminal charges pressed against him...

So far I've seen little evidence that customers are refraining from pre-orders.

The biggest indicator with JPop is that he has yet to show a single playable prototype, whereas we have seen games from almost everyone else....WOOLY, TBL, Predator, AMH, Full Throttle, even early P3 prototypes. A single fully playable MG prototype would be the only significant next step, not art, not cabinets, and not backglasses... game play.

Most/all of your list started after JPOP kicked off MG as well.. Salt meet wounds, sorry.

I am a little confused.. Why did this thread turn especially south today; spillover from predator or more? Iceman, it looks like you missed one maybe two phone calls with JPOP and ready to throw in towel? and FAST has gone quiet too. Is the trip out there on hold already?

I definately think it's spill over from the Predator stuff... basically in the last day Kevin admitted that there's license problems, which confirms everybody's worst suspicions... and since the Jpop thing is a similar issue (game way past deadline, everybody's money is hanging out there) it's kind of deflating a bunch of people's hopes that either one of these dudes ever gets their stuff together.

I hope they do, though, I don't think either guy set out to scam but they're both fully in scam territory right now.

Not saying it has and not saying it hasn't at this point. The reality is the issues with these projects have really only cast their dark shadow over the last several months, so, not a lot of pre-order opps since then (outside of Stern). Wooly fell flat and could not get pre-orders it needed (although I know some will argue the price was too high relative to the machine). I don't know how well Aliens has pre-sold.

Only time will tell.

Perfectionism can be a curse.

27108663_M.jpg

Simple, Jpop is on borrowed time. He was caught lying once again about the state of the machines and the "reveals", acknowledged that he was being a "moron" (his words) with how he ran things. Promised weekly calls with Ice, then stopped taking his calls and returning texts.

These past few weeks we also learned the truth about many things, that he has no programmer, the hardware/software solution for his games is sitting dead in the water and he is unable or unwilling to let the 1 solution that is being offered take the project over.

The list of people he owes money to also grew with the story of Cointaker.

Meanwhile he is wasting more days/weeks, spinning his wheels on who knows what, likely hand-editing html pages for whatever "reveals" he still has planned (of incomplete games).

Which brings me back to Ice's call. We're dealing with a "bad debtor", and when they don't take your calls, they are showing that they are not willing to work this through.

So, the timing with Predator is there, but this would be going sideways regardless because we are tired of his bullshit stalling.

Actually he's asking to get arrested on the spot. Especially for guys that sent checks through the mail.

i feel sick and angry reading through this debacle, i can't imagine what you pre order guys are going through after all this time. the man is either a fraudster or has some serious mental health issues.

I find this interesting, since John tried to have some of the boards he was using duplicated to cut the people out who made them.

The best thing John could do this week is pay his his contractors & vendors what is owed. Or make a agreeable settlement quickly about services. Return their goods & parts. Then move forward with damage control. He will most likely be asked to pay in advance, or on release of parts or product in the future. Doing nothing after this is like committing suicide.

The ones from Quetzal, Fast or PROC?

On the latest C2C podcast, there was a reference to John making mention about how beat up he gets on Pinside. Is that the way he sees it? That Pinside is just a bunch of internet haters beating up on him?

He's ultra sensitive and it will be his downfall. He's unable to step back and look at the reality of the situation he's created or have empathy for those who've trusted him.

That's a bit overly dramatic, don't you think?

If he finished games, and they were in hands of customers, he could be a Pinside Hero.

It's not all hate here. Look at the love people like Steve Ritchie get. Ben Heck. Charlie/Spooky. Andrew Heighway manages things well here, and if he can get his machines out soon the love will be good for him as well. Gerry/P3 uses Pinside for the good with lots of positive feedback.

Even Jack is spending a lot of time on Pinside now, when he used to call it "wrongside", but he got all the WOZs delivered, and has made changes to Hobbit based on the comments from Pinside.

So Pinside is definitely a tool for the positive if you have a good business.

If you take people's money and don't give them anything, well, that's when you're going to get it, and deservedly so.

Just because you can design a pinball machine, doesn't mean you can run a business. John needs to learn how to run a business (which this is). Being an entity subcontractor is one thing, being a company that has to manage timelines, and finances, and vendors, and dozens of other things is a completely different animal.

Terry from pinball life runs a business and you know what? I've only heard ONE person complain about something (and I've read every thread), and that person was immediately shot down when he realized he was in the wrong and took back his stupid comment. Run a business right, don't lie to your customers, and people won't complain, end of story.

I have found in my life on multiple occasions that peoples own view of how others may/are behave themselves is often a direct reflection of what they are capable of.. I.e. we presume everyone else operates the same way we do.. So people that mistrust everyone around them may not be the most trustworthy people.

He's always been nice to me, but he's a nice guy right up until money is involved. Someone who takes advantage of the services and products of small businesses and intentionally lets bills go waaay past due when he actually has the money that was paid to him up front by his customers - is this how a good guy conducts himself?

The people he owes money to are also good people. Actually maybe better people. They were willing to front him work and materials based on trust.

There are people who are being a little too nice now. The way he conducts himself really precludes him from being in the good guy club. He's just a guy.

What's interesting about that comment from Nate is that it would have been for his 100th Podcast, which was August 2014.

So if he thought he was taking a beating on Pinside back then, what is it that he's getting today?

You and this thread are specifically mentioned in the podcast. You are now famous!

He may be an adult but he sure isn't acting like one. Sack up for Christ sake. Boohoo, they're being mean to me. Shit I hate finding this stuff out about a guy I thought enough of to hang his picture and autograph on the wall of my gameroom. Be a man John.

Keep up the good fight, brother.

And that is his biggest blunder. All the money he needed was at the ready for him, he had crowd funded already from over 100+ people and raised over a million. Now they're all burned, vendors are burned, and he's walking around looking for outside investors. Let alone the fact that many of his customers have deep pockets and probably could have been strategic investors.

So how do we force him to show the financials? It's obvious we can't take his word on anything.

Yeah, one thing you might worry about is that he pays himself a monthly paycheque out of the company so that when the company goes bust, he has a nestegg in a personal account. Of say... hundreds of thousands. That would be a very good reason for him not to want to open his books.

Wished I could thumbs up this X 1000.
I'm really not getting this "but he's a nice guy" shit from so many people. Nice people don't steal from other people and John not paying his bills is stealing. It didn't just slip his mind, he didn't forget or an invoice got misplaced. It's deliberate.
You guys ever get a phone call from someone saying they are from your bank or the IRS and need your SS#? They're really nice to you on the phone also.

What I was trying to tell you here earlier, before you got all wound up.

I will gladly pay my balance when I can pick up my fully completed game.