Good for you, unbelievable balls on them to ask that.

Can a new company who never had any direct negotiations or a contract with zombie yeti actually use his work? Does the contract with Jpop give Jpop complete ownership and control on how the art is use? But then again, wouldn't the contract with jpop be null and void since payment was not made in full??

hmmmmmmm

What if there's no written contract at all between folks like Yeti and the Juice and Jpop?

JPop doesn't strike me as a details/document guy. Big fan of his "please remit!" slips with the old timey hand pointing.

Hopefully the artist at Heighway Pinball will get paid too.

more people to get ripped off. hope they havent paid him yet

The deeproot carpetbaggers are probably just going to steal whatever they want anyway.

Everybody keeps talking about the big "pinball comeback" and how wonderful it is, but frankly, I think it fuckin sucks. We were better off when Stern was the only pinball company and NIB games were $4,000.

Now, we have about 10 pinball companies, Sterns are selling for $5,500, and every carpetbagger, johnny come lately, snake oil salesman, starry-eyed boutiquest and con man with a godaddy account is starting a new pinball company, charging $7,000, and ripping off everybody in site to try to get a seat on the gravy train before the whole thing derails and nosedives off the cliff.

I think we were better off when the only thing in pinball that really sucked was stuff like CSI.

I mean, hey, it's one way of looking at it.

CSI isn't that bad of a game.... it's certainly better than Street Fighter 2.

I wonder if deep root takes on Zidware property do they take on Zidware debt also?

Q: If CSI and SF2 are dropped off a tall building what hits the ground first?
A: Who cares.

I would purchase a ticket to watch this experiment.

It is unforunate that only people that have seen the past, understand the present, and can predict what will happen in the future. This is not a slight towards anyone, just a respectful request. The Stern anology only reflects less than 10 years in time and is very accurate. It seems like so long ago now.

There is a huge differentiation between pessimism and realism, and somehing I wish more enthusiasts would see on these forums without judgement. I did not even write the above points which were solid, yet I am sure someone will attack me personally anyway, for reasons unknown.

Some people do actually protect pinball history for future generations even when pinball does not have the 'cool factor'.

Either that or they do not want to hear truth.
Mr. Mueller is not a pinball manufacturer, but a lucrative investor and venture capitalist that is motivated by profit. He is not new to pinball, nor pinball history. He has no problems using his financial power and pressure, lawyers, or courts to achieve his objectives. Charlie Emery recently discovered this aspect of his personality. So, did others.

If you think he is a "full friend to pinball", be cautious.

There are so many experienced people that offer the same opinion as Levi and I on this matter, it simply is not a controversial issue.

A person should not feel threatened by my opinions and knowledge.

Auribus Teneo Lupum.

TNT Amusements, make this happen!

I'm trying. He doesn't want to meet with me until the "official announcement", at Expo?

Come on over and we'll double team him

No way. You purchase assets and leave the debt in the trash heap.

Or in Yeti case just ask for them

I'd play CSI all day long before I ever touched a GB, GOT, or SW ever again. Things WERE better off when CSI was a new game!!!

I believe he was paid already.

Sounds kinky, Im game.

Dude. Why is it that every post you make is about yourself? What you know. What the vast majority of other people are too piddly and stupid to understand.

It's ridiculous and largely meaningless banter that almost never has any fact or concrete examples to back it up.

I think the whole of Pinside acknowledges that you fancy yourself as some sort of superior pinball collector... you constantly point out that you house some sort of magical knowledge that no one else is allowed to have.

But, just a news flash, here: It's only pinball. This isn't rocket science or curing world disease. This is an escape of fun...and laughably so. FUN. I'd hazard to guess that 99% of the people that hangout on Pinside do so to have a little fun and escape the hot and heavy stuff they're experiencing in real life. That's why it's called a hobby. So instead of lecturing and constantly trying to prove superiority, just join the conversation and lose the professorial schtick. You're looking for an effective way to get your message across... to share some knowledge... that's the ticket.

I just made a dookie that was better than SF2.

Why is every post you're making, a direct attack against the guy. Chris is only using his experience to inform those that want to learn something. Is your constant trolling making you feel better?

Gosh, would there even be pinball without the Black Knight?!?

+1 to that, Greg!

FYI, selling "Life Settlements" is not what one would consider "mainstream". Very suspect but draw your own conclusions. Google LIFE PARTNERS and read about the fiasco with that publicly traded company.

I've had a few clients come to me after the fact that were part of the Life Settlements class action suit and are just now getting a % of monies returned as people DIE! The sooner they die the more profitable the "investment" is. Can you imagine that, its a game betting on when people will die, with huge commissions to the sales person and littered with fraudulent practices.

San Antonio Business Journal article

"A San Antonio-based investment company that's offered five different securities without attracting investors since 2013 has hit on one, having raised a few million dollars for a fund that bets on life insurance, records on file with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission show.

Deeproot Capital Management LLC raised nearly $2.4 million in equity among 19 investors — it had offered $25 million — for its deeproot Growth Runs Deep Fund LLC, records show.

San Antonio-based Deeproot Growth Runs Deep Fund LLC is an investment fund that raised nearly $2.4M among several investors recently.
Enlarge
San Antonio-based Deeproot Growth Runs Deep Fund LLC is an investment fund that raised… more

DENPHUMI

Deeproot is led by Robert Mueller, a local attorney and past corporate sponsor of the now-defunct San Antonio Scorpion's soccer team. The company's chief investment officer is Aaron Flores, a former securities trader at USAA Investment Management Co. and Citigroup. Van Gunnell and G. Russell Hagan are other executives affiliated with the local investment firm.

The company declined to comment for this story.

An initial filing with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission described the deeproot Growth Runs Deep Fund as a portfolio primarily consisting of life settlements, or sales to third parties of existing life insurance contracts held on insurers who are at least 70 years old. The local company buys contracts from various insurance companies for less than the net death benefits and doesn't include those who are terminally ill.

It's one type of investment that doesn't track the stock market.

"This approach is appealing in today’s market. It insulates investors from the external manipulations of the stock and bond markets," the company wrote in an SEC filing. "It minimizes interest rate fluctuations. It allows a predictable return without risk of loss for liquidity."

The portfolio also includes trust deeds, or financial deals between business owners and private investors that are secured by collateral but occur outside the banking sector.

It appears the major change between the company's prior funds and this one is that it didn't rely on direct marketing to investors and instead offered a finder's fee to other financial advisers.

The fund, which has been open about a year, paid finder's fees of $208,025 split among four firms: INF Solutions in Houston; Financial Horizon Concepts in Spring, Texas; PGH Advisors in Arizona; and Michael Cales, through FSB and Associates Inc., in Florida.

It's also an offering of equity rather than debt.

In 2013, the company launched deeproot STFR Debenture Fund LLC and attempted to sell $50 million in debt with a minimum investment of $100,000, but it hasn't had any takers.

In 2014, the company tried to sell two different funds, all debt offerings with various minimum investments to no avail. In 2015, the company issued deeproot Pinball LLC, which offered $6 million of equity with a minimum investment of $25,000 but hasn't reported raising any money for that either. That same year, the company attempted to sell another equity offering called deeproot 575 fund LLC but didn't attract any investors."

The SEC reporting by Deeproot will reveal how much has been raised for the pinball offering.

So a company that profits over other people's misery? Sounds right up Jpoops alley...

"Don't try to renegotiate with old Beetroot, son"

Beetroot McKinley (resized).jpg

fondle and ripoff.

On a $2.4 million investment pool, chump change, commissions of $208,025 were paid out. Do the math.

Mind you, let's say one of the people that sold their policy to a Life Settlement group dies within 3 yrs versus say the 7 year life expectancy going into the deal then the "investor" gets paid, makes more profit because less premiums were paid in to fund the death benefit.

Sales guy gets to sell ANOTHER Life Settlement traunch or however they package them to the same "investor", and another commission.

That's why these filings go REG D under the SEC 1933 act. Virtually zero compliance or licensing necessary to sell these instruments other than to what is called an "accredited investor".

The other REG D filings are done to raise money to invest in certain non stock market correlated asset classes. That's the pitch.

Some of up front commission based and others are hedge fund oriented, 2% annual fee AND 20% of the profits. Hedge funds are a dying breed due to the consumer becoming more knowledgeable and the absolute horrendous performance of most.

Some are good and very above board, for example, a recent client came in with an MLP hedge fund, million dollar minimum. Small fund.

Getting its ass kicked because they are oil & gas related for the most part, although August was a good month.

The consumer can simply create the same effect with the XLE and a few pipeline companies like EPD if you want that asset class MUCH cheaper, MUCH more diversified, and MUCH better results.

Like i said, many "investors" are just plain stupid and driven by greed and the promise of huge returns. Easy prey when there is no compliance or regulation.

He was. Even that back stabbing bullshit ended up with the artist being paid, I saw to it.

So, we're already starting to see the true colors of Deep Poop. Step #1: Align with the most toxic piece of vomit in pinball. Step #2: Try to get free art that doesn't belong to them.

Well, this is all going GREAT so far!

Let's be real - the NIB scene in pinball is at the edge of a cliff...there's no room for ANOTHER set of wannabe Pin Biz Players. We've seen this story before...it doesn't end well.

Yeti - I think it's phenomenal that after all this you still retain ownership of your artwork. SMART. Never give it away for free. These jokers want your art, they can pay up like a LEGIT business would.

I think Full Throttle had a *great* theme. It was ruined by shitty, childish art.

Let's try and get Kman to tell us how he really feels!

He screwed me royally with RAZA... I'll join and give it back to him in spades.

I want my F*&*ing money.

I want my money (resized).jpg

100% correct. No room for all the current players, there will be some more spectacular failures.

Not looking to bash the game, just saying that even though people didn't line up for Moto GP racing it was a solid effort from a first time designer. It wasn't a success, but not because it shot badly is all I'm getting at.

Being smart about your theme and business and engineering counts for more than hiring a veteran designer imho.

Good to see someone else actually "gets it". I loathe the "resurgence of pinball". Last thing I want are machines becoming unobtainium with a Pro version at $5500 and everyone with a fat checkbook buying games and not even knowing how to take off the glass. I miss when it felt like MOST of us were semi-technically experienced and weren't afraid to get our hands dirty.

Don't forget to change your pinside name

I hear they will just buy the cab art from retro furbs who doesn't care about anybody's copyrights

Do you feel compfortable sharing who asked you this and when it was asked? It wouldnt surprise me if it were JPOP. If it was someone else at Deep Roots then that's enough for me to loose all hope for any positive resolution. So far we've had about a paragraph of a statement from them. This would clearly contradict that statement.

I don't understand why this is making everybody so upset. I mean, doesn't hurt to ask, right?

Wow! Those three Zidware games without the art are useless as tits on a bull. Unless I'm missing something this whole thing just completely caved in around Deeproot.

And yes, ZY might consider creative ways of selling this art on eBay and cashing in that way rather than ever selling the rights back to Jpop.

He's been doing this for a year already.

As much as I love this hobby, I think you'd have to be nuts to start a company right now. Rarehero is right. The NIB gig has reached a tipping point.

OK allow me to clarify that the contract was from John and his lawyer but it was given to me from Robert at Deproot.

Honestly, I was originally thinking it contradicted what they had said. I assumed that they would take care of vendors and customers, but in actuality this was the quote: "Robert indicated that Deeproot is aware that in order to work with JPop, they would have to take care of “each and every” Zidware customer. Robert assured that this “comes first” and is the first priority. No specifics were discussed, however, they plan to have multiple options to make sure Zidware customers are made whole." I now feel that this statement, combined with the request to Yeti, shows that even if they have an understanding of the full issues surrounding John, Deeproot has already started trying to find ways to avoid making things right for everyone. This shows their true character. If they are willing to do this to Yeti, it's just a matter of time before they pull this with the next person.

Thank you. That's all I really need to know. It's clear in that case John was acting as an employee of Deeproot.

These guys aren't hopping on the gravy train to make friends, they are doing it to try to make some money before this whole thing implodes. The fact that they are trying to steal artwork is pretty much the least surprising thing about this venture. People shouldn't take it personally this is how business works. Nice to hear Yeti isn't gonna play ball but nobody should be outraged here.

Whatever new pinball company pops up next week will probably behave the same way.

I hope you're wrong. In my view pinball is such a niche market that you can't succeed without having a group of loyal supporters. Take Spooky for example, they sure seem to be making money and making friends.