Jolly Roger
Williams, 1967end a game so game over lights up. hit the credit button and score motor spings,score reels begin to reset but then stop and theres a buzzing noise. buzzing noise is the outhole relay. it's not engages but just buzzing. hit the credit button a second time and the score motor starts spinning again and reels zero out and it fully resets, ready for a new game.
what's going on with the double tap on the credit button and the buzzing outhole relay in the middle of it?
I think your Reset relay is letting go too soon (before the Score Reels finish resetting) which sends power to the playfield. The Outhole relay fires because the ball is in the outhole but the Ball Release solenoid doesn't fire to send it to the shooter lane because the Score Motor isn't running.
Start by checking the zero position switches on all sixteen Score Reels. Each one has a switch from a yellow wire to a blue-brown wire that opens when the Score Reel shows a zero.
Jolly Roger Reset relay (resized).jpg
If they're dirty or always open the Reset relay will let go too soon.
/Mark
Quoted from MarkG:I think your Reset relay is letting go too soon (before the Score Reels finish resetting) which sends power to the playfield. The Outhole relay fires because the ball is in the outhole but the Ball Release solenoid doesn't fire to send it to the shooter lane because the Score Motor isn't running.
Start by checking the zero position switches on all sixteen Score Reels. Each one has a switch from a yellow wire to a blue-brown wire that opens when the Score Reel shows a zero.
[quoted image]
If they're dirty or always open the Reset relay will let go too soon.
/Mark
had 1 zero position switch that was open all the time. adjusted that and cleaned all 16. also noticed that aftermarket chimes were wired into the yellow wires on the 1, 10 and 100 pt relays. unplugged this aftermarket chime wiring and now it resets without the double push of the credit/reset button.....but score reels do not zero out. all 16 zero switches are closed for 1-9 and open on 0. i have cleaned and cheked all 16.....just need to figure out score reel zeroing now
Quoted from vipertblck:is there maybe a switch somewhere on the score motor thats suppose to be closed until all the reels reach zero and the game resets and then open?
Yes. That switch is controlled by the Reset relay shown above. If you watch you'll probably find that the Reset relay lets go, then the Score Motor stops soon after.
The reason it takes two Replay button pushes to get the game to reset is that your Reset relay is likely only staying active for one Score Motor cycle (or 1/2 turn), which only provides five reset pulses to the Score Reels. If you have any Score Reels showing numbers 1-4 at the start, they take more than five pulses to reset. The second Replay button push repeats the process and provides another five pulses to the Score Reels which should reset them all (assuming they're working well).
I'm pretty sure that one or more of you 16 Zero position switches isn't closing as it should. It may be closing visually but unless it's conducting electricity it won't keep the Reset relay active into a 2nd Score Motor cycle. It could also be a problem with the wiring, the jones plug, etc.
If you manually put a 1 on all 16 Score Reels and start the game, does it reset properly? If so you might be able to experiment by setting one or two Score Reels at a time with 1s and trying to reset the game. Some may work just fine. The ones that don't would probably be where to look.
Quoted from MarkG:Yes. That switch is controlled by the Reset relay shown above. If you watch you'll probably find that the Reset relay lets go, then the Score Motor stops soon after.
The reason it takes two Replay button pushes to get the game to reset is that your Reset relay is likely only staying active for one Score Motor cycle (or 1/2 turn), which only provides five reset pulses to the Score Reels. If you have any Score Reels showing numbers 1-4 at the start, they take more than five pulses to reset. The second Replay button push repeats the process and provides another five pulses to the Score Reels which should reset them all (assuming they're working well).
I'm pretty sure that one or more of you 16 Zero position switches isn't closing as it should. It may be closing visually but unless it's conducting electricity it won't keep the Reset relay active into a 2nd Score Motor cycle. It could also be a problem with the wiring, the jones plug, etc.
If you manually put a 1 on all 16 Score Reels and start the game, does it reset properly? If so you might be able to experiment by setting one or two Score Reels at a time with 1s and trying to reset the game. Some may work just fine. The ones that don't would probably be where to look.
good info, ill go try that! im assuming i have some altered wiring; based on my post #3 about the aftermarket chime wiring. also the fact that if you turn off the game with cabinet switch when it has 1-9 on some score reels, turn it back on and hit the credit/reset button, it will not attempt to reset the reels or game; it just spins the score motor and adds another player. i believe it should do a reset sequence in that scenario.
Quoted from MarkG:Yes. That switch is controlled by the Reset relay shown above. If you watch you'll probably find that the Reset relay lets go, then the Score Motor stops soon after.
The reason it takes two Replay button pushes to get the game to reset is that your Reset relay is likely only staying active for one Score Motor cycle (or 1/2 turn), which only provides five reset pulses to the Score Reels. If you have any Score Reels showing numbers 1-4 at the start, they take more than five pulses to reset. The second Replay button push repeats the process and provides another five pulses to the Score Reels which should reset them all (assuming they're working well).
I'm pretty sure that one or more of you 16 Zero position switches isn't closing as it should. It may be closing visually but unless it's conducting electricity it won't keep the Reset relay active into a 2nd Score Motor cycle. It could also be a problem with the wiring, the jones plug, etc.
If you manually put a 1 on all 16 Score Reels and start the game, does it reset properly? If so you might be able to experiment by setting one or two Score Reels at a time with 1s and trying to reset the game. Some may work just fine. The ones that don't would probably be where to look.
you're correct. setting all 16 at 1, it performs a reset back to 0 correctly. pick random ones (doesn't matter which or what player) and set to 1, it will do reset but only turn them 5 turns, ending at 6.
-all 16 reels have continuity at 1. none have continuity at 0.
-the reset relay IS letting go too soon as you mentioned.
Quoted from vipertblck:you're correct. setting all 16 at 1, it performs a reset back to 0 correctly.
That suggests that one or more of the Zero position switches is working properly, and that the random ones you've tried individually may not be. Can you identify the working one(s) by trying them one at a time?
Quoted from MarkG:That suggests that one or more of the Zero position switches is working properly, and that the random ones you've tried individually may not be. Can you identify the working one(s) by trying them one at a time?
I picked all the player 1 reels and then random ones on other players, they all reset and ended in 6. It seems as though they will all go to 6 and the only way to have everyone work correctly is have them all (16) set to 1. I can double check everything but when I checked, app 16 were open at 0, and closed with continuity for 1-9. Do any of the other switches in that stack effect this problem?
I'd check all 16 individually. But if you'd rather use your meter, you could let the game try and fail to reset. Then unplug the game and clip your meter to the Blue-Brown wire on the Reset relay switch above, and any nearby Yellow wire. Measure the resistance (not continuity) of the 17 switches in parallel (16 Score Reel switches and a Score Motor switch).
If the game had reset successfully the resistance would be infinite (or overflow on the meter) because all of the switches would be open. In your case I suspect the resistance will still be high even when there are Score Reels not at zero. The resistance should be near zero (and keeping the Reset relay active) until all the Score Reels show a zero. Does that make sense?
If you can get your meter to show high resistance when the Score Reels aren't at zero then you can start fiddling with Score Reel switches, jones plugs, etc. to see what will drop that resistance to zero.
If you can find the Blue-Brown and Yellow wires on the jones plugs you could disconnect the jones plug and see if the issue is in the head or in the cabinet.
Once the reset relay pulls in it will start the score motor. Once the score motor bumps off of the home position index cam switch A will close, keeping the reset relay pulled in. When the score motor reaches another home position switch A will open and the reset relay is now relying on a positive switch connection of at least one of the score reel switches to keep the reset relay pulled in to complete the reset sequence.
Quoted from MarkG:I'd check all 16 individually. But if you'd rather use your meter, you could let the game try and fail to reset. Then unplug the game and clip your meter to the Blue-Brown wire on the Reset relay switch above, and any nearby Yellow wire. Measure the resistance (not continuity) of the 17 switches in parallel (16 Score Reel switches and a Score Motor switch).
If the game had reset successfully the resistance would be infinite (or overflow on the meter) because all of the switches would be open. In your case I suspect the resistance will still be high even when there are Score Reels not at zero. The resistance should be near zero (and keeping the Reset relay active) until all the Score Reels show a zero. Does that make sense?
If you can get your meter to show high resistance when the Score Reels aren't at zero then you can start fiddling with Score Reel switches, jones plugs, etc. to see what will drop that resistance to zero.
If you can find the Blue-Brown and Yellow wires on the jones plugs you could disconnect the jones plug and see if the issue is in the head or in the cabinet.
im not following what you're saying. if my meter is hooked to a yellow wire and the blue/brown on reset relay, how can i use it to measure resistance on any switches?
Quoted from vipertblck:if my meter is hooked to a yellow wire and the blue/brown on reset relay, how can i use it to measure resistance on any switches?
Look at the schematic in reply #2. The Score Reel Zero Position switches are all wired in parallel, all with a yellow wire on one side and a blue-brown wire on the other side. When you connect your probes to either side of any one of those switches your meter just sees two wires with 17 switches between them. Since they're all in parallel it doesn't matter which switch you probe.
If you put one probe instead on the solder lug of the Reset relay switch that shares the blue-brown wire you include all of the wiring from the backbox, through the jones plugs and into the cabinet into your test. Similarly, if you put the other probe on a yellow wire in the cabinet and not on a Score Reel you'll include all the cabling for the yellow wire in your test too.
The Reset relay doesn't know or care where the wiring goes. All it cares about is that it needs a direct connection to the yellow wire through some combination of switches or else it won't hold. So by probing between the blue-brown wire on the Reset relay switch (aka the Lock In switch) and the yellow wire you should be able to see if there is a path to yellow that the Reset relay can use.
All this probing should be done with the game unplugged, or else at best your measurements will be off and at worst you'll fry your meter.
well we made some progress. player 4 had a broken wire that "looked" ok on the blue/brown switch but wasn't actually connected. re soldered that on and now it runs the score motor and players 1 and 2 zero out during a reset, but 3 and 4 don't. the score motor keeps spinning trying to reset players 3 & 4, but the reels or coils aren't moving.
Quoted from MarkG:Look at the schematic in reply #2. The Score Reel Zero Position switches are all wired in parallel, all with a yellow wire on one side and a blue-brown wire on the other side. When you connect your probes to either side of any one of those switches your meter just sees two wires with 17 switches between them. Since they're all in parallel it doesn't matter which switch you probe.
If you put one probe instead on the solder lug of the Reset relay switch that shares the blue-brown wire you include all of the wiring from the backbox, through the jones plugs and into the cabinet into your test. Similarly, if you put the other probe on a yellow wire in the cabinet and not on a Score Reel you'll include all the cabling for the yellow wire in your test too.
The Reset relay doesn't know or care where the wiring goes. All it cares about is that it needs a direct connection to the yellow wire through some combination of switches or else it won't hold. So by probing between the blue-brown wire on the Reset relay switch (aka the Lock In switch) and the yellow wire you should be able to see if there is a path to yellow that the Reset relay can use.
All this probing should be done with the game unplugged, or else at best your measurements will be off and at worst you'll fry your meter.
that makes sense, now i follow. this test should be done with the reels OFF zero position then, correct? that way the zero position switch is closed and we're checking that whole circuit for all 16 switches. is this still a test worthy of doing now that i have the relay locking and score motor spinning, trying to zero out players 3 & 4?
Quoted from vipertblck:player 4 had a broken wire that "looked" ok on the blue/brown switch but wasn't actually connected.
Glad you found it but the measurements you made earlier don't match the behavior of the game:
Quoted from vipertblck:but when I checked, app 16 were open at 0, and closed with continuity for 1-9.
Another good reason to avoid continuity measurements.
Quoted from vipertblck:now it runs the score motor and players 1 and 2 zero out during a reset, but 3 and 4 don't.
There are three Reset relays in this game: "Reset", "1&2 Reset", and "3&4 Reset". The "1&2 Reset" relay is probably pulsing in groups of five until the first two players' Score Reels reset. I'm guessing the "3&4 Reset" relay isn't pulsing at all, right? If not, check the bottom switch on the first Impulse cam on the Score Motor:
Jolly Roger 34 Reset relay (resized).jpg
Quoted from vipertblck:is this still a test worthy of doing now that i have the relay locking and score motor spinning, trying to zero out players 3 & 4?
No, move along.
Quoted from MarkG:Glad you found it but the measurements you made earlier don't match the behavior of the game:
Another good reason to avoid continuity measurements.
There are three Reset relays in this game: "Reset", "1&2 Reset", and "3&4 Reset". The "1&2 Reset" relay is probably pulsing in groups of five until the first two players' Score Reels reset. I'm guessing the "3&4 Reset" relay isn't pulsing at all, right? If not, check the bottom switch on the first Impulse cam on the Score Motor:
[quoted image]No, move along.
may have some trouble here. some of my relay tags are flaked off or missing. i was able to identidy the "reset relay" but is there a particular one labeled "1 &2 reset" and "3 &4 reset" if so where might i find them. im assuming the main cabinet itselt by all the other relays?
Quoted from vipertblck:some of my relay tags are flaked off or missing
That might be for the better - my reset relays are flipped from what the tags say, so at one point I was going nuts trying to find an issue once until I stepped behind and saw that player 1's reset was being fired by the supposed '3&4' reset bank.
Who knows if it was a factory error or another owner during its first 40 years...
Building on what pinballdaveh said: the reset relays are in the bottom left of the backbox (standing behind the machine), with 1-10-100 point relays between them and the player unit.
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Elgin, IL