(Topic ID: 16382)

Jokerz Relay Problem?

By PinballGiant

9 years ago


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  • 40 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 9 years ago by PinballGiant
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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Relay_Voltage.jpg
Relay_Voltage.jpg
relay.JPG

#2 9 years ago

Is the game working? What symptoms lead you to believe it needs to be replaced?

1 month later
#3 9 years ago

I recently replaced my a/c relay on the aux power driver board because it seemed to be sparking green. So I socketed it and put in a 10a 24 vdc relay. This fixed my issues and so I proceeded to use clays guides to diagnose 4 transistors as bad and I also replaced 1 because the coil was stuck on. I replaced them and put the board back in. Now the relay which was previously switching correctly is back to sparking green. I at least think it's the relay but it could be the contacts for it. Thanks.

#4 9 years ago

That doesn't look like a spark....That looks like the LED indicator in the relay coming on indicating it is energized.

#5 9 years ago

Hmm it wasn't "sparking" when I replaced and it was workng but only after I put in the transistors did it spark. Thanks!

#6 9 years ago

Looks like arcing across the contacts. An inductive load like a coil or a motor can cause this kind of arcing, a diode will lessen the arc. Could be the diode across the motor/coil is shorted, it can take out the transistor and relay contacts if not corrected. I'd track down the load that the relay is controlling and check the diode.

#7 9 years ago

That relay is the switching relay for flashers/coils so there isn't one coil to track down. If it were an arc, it'd be more of a flash, not a glow like I'm seeing on the video. Now, it's hard to tell, but it appears to receive a surge (the LED glows brighter) before extinguishing and it seems to correspond with a coil or something else going off. It also depends on what part of the game sequence this is occurring in.

So, a little more information....

Can you confirm the relay has an indicator LED? Should be able to see it inside the clear case. Most modern relays have one and since you replaced it, I would be surprised if it did not.

At what point of the game is this behavior? What is the coil noise in the background that is coinciding with this? Do you see flashers flash before/after the relay is energized?

Are you concerned about this for the sake of concern, or is there some game behavior that leads you to be concerned?

#8 9 years ago

Okay. I looked at a relay I have lying around and I do see a green LED. However, the relay that I purchased at Fry's and currently have installed in the machine does NOT have an LED. Also, the video shows me turning the machine on and at the end, the click is me turning the machine off. Upon turning the machine on, after about a second, the relay begins sparking and seems like it would continue doing so indefinitely if I did not turn the machine off. This sort of seems like Q8 is shorted but since it was working after I swapped it and before I put the transistors in, I'm not sure. Also, Q8 and its pre-driver check good according to Clay's guides. The noise in the background I believe to be largely speaker noise which goes away after a few seconds after start up. However, the sound is confounded with the sound of at least one stuck on coil (maybe the transistor fix didn't work).My concern stems from finding the old relay case melted due to high temperature and the relay pins burnt after I observed this same sparking behavior. When I turn the machine on it begins doing normal stuff, but just with the noise of the relay sparking, not clicking. Thanks!

#9 9 years ago

Well, the video is deceiving as it doesn't look like a 'spark' but by your description it sounds like one, so.....

Usually an arc across contacts on a relay are only present when the contacts first close or release. If that's an 'arc' on your video, it appears more like a high current inrush and the contacts are burning. Which is surprising because the fuse should long blow before you see a glow like that. So, something is amiss....

Try pulling F2 (25V feed) and power on....see if you see the same glow after the relay pulls in. Then put F2 in and pull F3 (50V feed) and power on. See if you see the same glow. If you see the glow/spark on one of those fuses that may help isolate which circuit is getting high current. Inspect fuse F2 and F3 and make sure they are the correct size.

#10 9 years ago

Okay I pull out F2A and the glow continues. I pull out F2C and it continues. I pull out F3 and it still continues. These are aux power board fuses...not sure if those are what you wanted. Here is an image of the relay that was in the machine before I replaced it (the burnt one). This shows the affected area. The same issue is occurring with the relay currently in the machine. Also, F2C is over-fused it should be 5 amp but it is 6 1/4 amp and F3 is over-fused it is a 3 amp and should be 2.5. It may be important to note that the problem stopped after I put the new relay in but came back when I put the new transistors in...Thanks!

relay.JPG

#11 9 years ago

Yes, F2A/C and F3 should have eliminated any current through those contacts. The area you have circled is one of the relay contacts, so something is shorted somewhere or you have a locked on coil drawing high current...However, removing the voltage supplies at F2 and F3 should have stopped that according to the schematics.

You should be able to follow the trace on board to see if that contact is on the 25V or 50V side....Most likely the 50V side to draw that much current to heat the contacts. Once you isolate which side, check all the transistors again. If all your drivers and pre-drivers are testing good, you'll have to move futher back upstream to the logic chip. One of the Uxx chips probably. I don't have the schematic handy and about to jump on a plane....

#12 9 years ago

I dont want to muddy the waters here but the contacts that are burning are probably pins 2 + 6. If so the yellow/violet wire leading to the solenoids for 3-3bank solenoids and a ball locking kicker are involved. The op replaced a coil, was it one of these? Each of these coils has a diode in series with it (d33, d35, d39, and d41) after each diode is a transistor q32, q24, q23 and q22. If youve replaced one of these coils and one of these transistors then my next likely suspect is the corresponding diode.

#13 9 years ago

After you've replaced the replacement relay that is

#14 9 years ago

And f4 will stop the glow

#15 9 years ago

Okay pulling f4 out does stop the glow. Also, I tested the diodes on the aux power board and got something kinda strange. D45, 31, 33, 35, 37, 39, 41, 43 (all the wires corresponding to the purple wired j4 connector have resistance in both directions whereas the j5 diodes have resistance in only one direction (the way it is supposed to work as i understand it). Also, I replaced the coils and transistors for q22, q23, and q30. Thanks. Do you know what size those diodes are?

#16 9 years ago

Whoo Jackpot!!
I will look at the schematics asap to find a diode value.

#17 9 years ago

Diode = mr501

#18 9 years ago

Awesome thanks. So should I replace all 8 of them?

#19 9 years ago

Also, if they are bad did they fry my recently replaced transistors?

#20 9 years ago

If they all show reistance in both directions and your soldering skills are good I'd replace them all. The transistors are the return for the coils/flashers. With a bad diode you will backfeed current through the diode and short will happen across the normally open contacts on the relay when the relay coil pulls in. Cooking the coil probably killed the transistor and the diode. If the new coil is still good, chances are replacing the relay and diodes will fix the problem, the transistor should still be ok. But check it nonetheless.

#21 9 years ago

Is there any Danger in leaving the same relay in?

#22 9 years ago

I would think the contacts on that relay are probably toast. Pins 2 and 6 should have no continuity between them, pins 4 and 6 should be closed while the relay coil is de-energized. If you get high resitance on 4-6 or a low resistance on 2-4 then the damage is done. If the contacts check out fine you should be ok.

#23 9 years ago
Quoted from Sparky347:

And f4 will stop the glow

D'oh....My bad....The schematics on IPDB are rotated and in my haste and turning my head sideways followed F3 to the 50V contact on the relay instead of F4...Teach me to look crosseyed and give advice on the run. Thanks for the correction, Sparky....BG, sounds like you're on the right path if you're measuring short on the diodes, however, I would caution you that to be sure, you would need to lift one leg of each diode and measure. You could very well be reading parallel impedance of the load that the diode is protecting.

#24 9 years ago

Okay strange turn of events. I pulled out the aux power driver board and tested the diodes again and they all test fine (I guess I should always test with the board out ... ) Not sure what this makes of your previous theory guys...thanks!

#25 9 years ago

Pull the relay, power up the game check voltages at pin 2 and 6. Pin 6 should have + 50v. Pin 2 should have 0v ( or close to it). Report back.

#26 9 years ago

Also make sure all of the diode bands are facing the correct direction. One reversed bias diode would explain everything.

#27 9 years ago

Hmmm, question..... The replacement relay you bought. Was the coil voltage ac or dc? Contacts opening closing 60 times a second might draw a bit of an arc too.

#28 9 years ago

Okay it is a 10a 24 VDC (not VAC) relay. The diodes all tested fine and are oriented correctly. One diode was a 1 amp instead of a 3amp so I replaced it. I measured the voltages on the relay and what I read is on the attached picture. Thanks for all the help!

Relay_Voltage.jpg

#29 9 years ago

By those measures, the relay would be energized. What is the voltage on terminal 4?

#30 9 years ago

Pin 4 should have 0v as its not used in the game. These are the voltages read on the socket, not the relay itself so voltages read are what are expected. Next I would check voltage between 7+ 8 while game is energized and started.

#31 9 years ago

Also with game startedand relay out check voltages at 2 and 6

#32 9 years ago

no worries, I charge almost $100p/hr fixing machines that put people to work, least i can do is volunteer to help fix machines that keep people from work! . Keeps me from getting beaten up

#33 9 years ago

Hmmm....Something is not adding up....

The 'C' side of the 50V contacts on the relay aren't used as Sparky says, meaning pin 4 goes nowhere...Well it does go to J12 connector pins 9 and 10, but I assume there are no wires on these connector pins. The relay when energized still switches the 50V to the 'C' side (pin 4 across the normally open set of contacts) however, and didn't you say that you get this arcing when the relay is energized?? If you are getting arcing on the 50V side (which seems to be the case because pulling F4 eliminates it) when the relay is energized that's odd. I'm thinking you are getting this arcing (across the normally closed contacts) when the relay is 'de'-energized? Just trying to clear up this point....and whether it is arcing from rapid open/close of the relay or the contacts burning due to exceeding the current rating of the contacts. Which brings up another point....The relay you bought...what is the current rating of the contacts? Needs to be sufficient to withstand the amps drawn...a good indication of that is the size of F4 or F2 fuses.

In anycase, while you have the relay out and with power off, measure resistance between pin 4 to ground and pin 2 to ground. Measure first with J12 disconnected (you should read open circuit/infinite ohms). Then measure with J12 connected (you should still read open on pin 4 if it is truly going nowhere). If you are reading a dead short or very low resistance on pin 4 or pin 2 then we'll investigate further, but that would be the cause of the high current and glowing (burning) at the contacts.

#34 9 years ago

Okay I measured the requested voltages while a game was started and they're on the picture below. Robertmee, I measured the resistance as well and from pin 4 to ground and pin 2 to ground I get open circuit for both with and without the connector plugged in.

didn't you say that you get this arcing when the relay is energized??

I'm not sure if it is energized or not while sparking. It just begins sparking about one second after I turn the game on and doesn't stop...

the relay you bought...what is the current rating of the contacts? Needs to be sufficient to withstand the amps drawn...a good indication of that is the size of F4 or F2 fuses.

Not entirely sure what you're asking here... it's a 10amp 24 VDC relay. I couldn't get an amp spec off the relay I initially pulled out so I just went with what Clay's guides said (10 amp 24 VDC). Something interesting though is that the manual labels it as a 13 amp 24 VDC relay... (see page Jokerz 42)

no worries, I charge almost $100p/hr fixing machines that put people to work, least i can do is volunteer to help fix machines that keep people from work! . Keeps me from getting beaten up

Haha well without people like you and Robertmee on pinside I probably would have put my machines in a woodchipper long ago

Relay_Voltage.jpg

#35 9 years ago

All of those voltages look good. I would pull f4 and put your relay back in. Start a game, measure the voltages on both sides of the pulled fuse holder.

#36 9 years ago

Okay from the left side of the fuse holder ( the one closest to the left of the board) I measure 2 vdc and from the right side I measure 70vdc. Across the left and right side I measure 5 vdc. Thanks!

#37 9 years ago

That all sounds good! Have you tried the game with it all put back together since changing the diode? I'd try it, with my hand on the kill switch of course. Failing that I would disconnect the yellow/violet wire from each of the above mentioned solenoid coils, turn the game on what happens, if good, add one coil at a time powering on between try's. We'll track it down.
Ok, literally sitting on the tarmac with the Stewardess glaring at me. Going to have another Baldwin episode here
Good luck. I'll check back later.

#38 9 years ago

Okay sparky sorry I'm just getting back with you it has been a busy weekend. I popped a new relay in just to eliminate everything and the sparking continues. I disconnected the violet yellow wires like you said from the coils I Have been messing with (top left drop target and Bttom left locking kicker). With these unhooked the sparking stops. When I rehook either of the power wires the sparking starts once again. Thanks!

#39 9 years ago

Ok, make sure when you are disconnecting the coils that you are disconnecting the yellow / violet side and that once the wires are off of the terminal you reconnect the wires together while they are off of the terminal when you turn the game on. I would do all 4 coils at the same time, keeping all of the wires together (3 drop targets and kicker) and then add them back one at a time starting with the kicker.it should be the only one with a single yellow/violet wire.
If arcing continues you'll need to look at q22,q23,q24,q32 transistors again. I would also go ahead and replace that relay too. A pitted set of contacts or contacts not seating properly will draw out an arc too.

#40 9 years ago

Okay I've made some progress I guess... the Bottom Left 3 Bank Drop Target wires were on the kicker coil so I swapped them. With everything except for the kicker connected, the kicker works and the relay does not spark. Next, I hooked up the Bottom right drop target correctly(which had its wires on it reversed) and both the kicker and the bottom right drop target worked and the relay did not spark. However, when I hook up either of the left side drop targets , the relay sparks...thanks!

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