(Topic ID: 220476)

Jokerz! Help please

By jag8511

5 years ago


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  • Latest reply 4 years ago by jag8511
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There are 89 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 5 years ago

I'm very new to this pinball world, so forgive me if I don't explain correctly. I was able to pick up a Jokerz! that was in pretty rough shape but was mostly able to get everything working except for a couple of things. The main thing is that the ball will not kick out of the hole in the top left-hand side of the game. Those who know this game should know what I'm talking about. The game recognizes that the ball went in and I get the points and all the lights go off..ect, but the ball doesn't kick out. I can see that someone had previously extended the wires to the coil so I took off the tape, re-soldered the wires and re-taped (maybe I should just resoldered to the coil). I tested the coil with a meter and it seems to be ok. I believe that I traced the wire back to the J4 slot on the board (can anybody with schematics confirm?) and I noticed that the switch (in blue) goes off when the ball goes into the hole and won't shut off until I lift the PF up to get the ball out. Anybody have any ideas here? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

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#3 5 years ago

I would download the manual from ipdb.org first. Go into solenoid test as described in the manual. Need to see if it will fire in test mode. My guess it won't. Most likely the coil locked on, blew the driver transistor and someone threw another coil in quick hoping it would work. Driver transistor probably will need replaced.

#4 5 years ago

For basic troubleshooting of system 11 games (that includes Jokerz), you may want to read through the guide published here: http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_9_-_11

#5 5 years ago

That wiring is suspect to me, I'd visually re-inspect that you have good connectivity to the small coil wires on those lugs first, and then test continuity between the lugs and the wires at the circuitboard side. You could have a short within the wiring insulation, so you need to test continuity and not just a visual check. No fuses blown?

Then I'd personally suspect the transistor (Q31 if I'm looking at it right, for "Top Left Kickbig") and/or pre-driver Q27. That's probably jumping the gun to just replace those two at this point, but I'm not one of the real troubleshooting experts on here. I've had to replace the driver and pre-driver for multiple similar solenoid issues in the past, so that seems to be my primary suspect immediately, once wiring is verified...

Am I correct that it looks like the double-score flashers may be driven by Q31 also, do they work in the test diagnostics?

#6 5 years ago

Thank you all for the help! It is sure satisfying to be new to this, get help, and to find the problem. I was able to download the manual and read up on how to run the diagnostics. Sure enough. All signs pointed to the Q31 transistor and the other problem I was having was because of the Q16 transistor as the wheel lights would not turn on when "draw poker" was initiated. Come to find out that Q16 is completely missing and Q31 looks fried up. Q17 also looks a little dirty but is working fine. So my next question is, is this repairable? Order new transistors? Or do I run the risk of further damaging anything? I have some soldering skills so I'm hoping I can fix this on my own. Any thoughts? Thank you again all so much for pointing me in the right direction!

IMG_3242 (resized).jpgIMG_3242 (resized).jpg
#7 5 years ago

The nice thing about these older System 11 games is that all the electrical components are through-hole, and can be easily repaired using a 25 watt soldering iron and a solder puller. The damage you pictured is very much repairable. Before you go out and order new transistors, also check the pre-drive transistors and make sure they are not shorted out.

If you have never done board work before I suggest you find another local pinhead who can help you out. While these boards are tough, you can have the traces lift if you over heat them trying to get the solder out.

#8 5 years ago

Forgive me, but how do I tell what pre driver is connected to Q31? I see that @pinkopf says it is 27. I believe that but for my own learning, where do I find that in the schematics? I spent the better part of 45 min trying to read through the manual but can’t make sense of it.

#9 5 years ago

So here is the circuit that contains Q31:
q31 driver (resized).jpgq31 driver (resized).jpg

The way this circuit works is AND gate at U19 has one leg held high (meaning at +5v) by the reset circuit, and the other leg is switched logically by U28. Once both inputs of U19 are high, the AND gate will output high and trigger the 2N4401 transistor at Q27. This is the pre-driver to Q31. Williams used these pre-driver transistors to trigger the larger TIP 122 transistor. When the main transistor goes out, it will sometimes take the per-driver with it.

You can replace Q31 with either a TIP 122, or a TIP 102.

#10 5 years ago

Ok! That make sense. Thank you for pointing that out. I ordered the transistors for Q16 and Q31. If I can test the Q27 and it is good. I'll replace them and hopefully I will be good to go. Thanks for the help! I will post my results.

#11 5 years ago

There is some quick-and-dirty testing you can do with a digital multimeter. If you have a "diode" function, select that, then probe the legs on Q27. Depending on how you have the leads, it should read 0.4-0.6, or "no reading"

If, instead, you get continuity between any of the leads, then you have a dead-short and that transistor is probably no good.

You can do the same thing with U19. None of the legs should have continuity between them.

And you don't even have to pull the board out of the machine

-dd

#12 5 years ago

Parts should be in today. Tested the Q27 and it seems fine. So hopefully replacing the other two transistors will do the trick. The other major problem I have has to do with the power supply. No idea where this pin came from or when the last time it was serviced so I'm guessing the caps on the power supply are not great? My issue is that it takes several minutes to "warm up". I turn it on and I will get a loud hum from the speaks and then the system will flick on and off. Staying on longer each time and then it will stay on permanently. The game will start and everything will work as it should (except for the trouble I'm having with the Q31 and Q16) but the sound won't be normal until the 1st ball of the second game drains (usually that is when). I will get speech at the start and then the music and sound will kick in after awhile. Once everything is kicked on and working...the music plays fine but then when ever the speech comes on, it will come on with a loud hum behind it. Would it be worth it to just get a new rottendog power supply? Or try to rebuilt the power supply? Or is this a deeper issue and something else I should be looking for? No fuses are blown or do blow when powering on or playing if that helps.

#13 5 years ago

It sounds like the +5v at the power supply is giving out. You can check it by measuring the voltage at pins 4, 5 and 6 of plug J1 on the power supply board. The molex connections that are used on most pinball machines have a bad habit of tarnishing as they get old, and will sometimes act as resistors. For this reason, you should also check the +5 volts at the test point on the main MPU board (it is located in the general area of J17 on the MPU board). If your power supply is putting out less than 4.9 volts at either point, you will have issues with resets. You are correct that you need to either re-build the 5v section of the power supply, or get a new one.

As for the hum, this is not unusual for System 11 games. I have a Jokerz that hums pretty loud as well. The hum will sometimes change in time with changes to the light matrix. Make sure your sound board has all mounting screws at the corners of the board so it get a good ground. This will help reduce the hum.

As for your sound board not playing music, this is may be related to the +5v issue. The music comes from the sound board, and it is a stand alone computer system. If the main MPU does not boot at the same time as the sound board, the sound board will miss the reset signal from the MPU. When working correctly, the sound board will produce a boot up tone when you first turn on the game (on jokerz, it sound more like a pair of tones). If you don't get a tone on bootup, you may be missing music until until you have a game event that sends a signal to the sound board (like changing music on ball end).

I hope this helps.

#14 5 years ago

That helps alot! I will check that all but that sounds exactly what is going on. I'll do more research on how to rebuild the +5v part of the power supply as compared to just getting a new one.

I got the transisters in today. I was able to replace Q16 without any problems and that worked!! Problem solved there with the flashers for the "draw poker"

Q31 was a different story. I posted the pictures. When I removed the transister I found that one of the pins was bent onto the top of board to connect on the top. There must have been damage and that was the only way to make the connections. I put everything back as normal and tried to connect it to the board using solder. The is the first time Ive ever touched a board or done soldering but I thought I would give it a try and that didn't work. Any ideas? Could a guy just use small wires to make that jump connection? Or is there a better way?

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#15 5 years ago
Quoted from jag8511:

That helps alot! I will check that all but that sounds exactly what is going on. I'll do more research on how to rebuild the +5v part of the power supply as compared to just getting a new one.
I got the transisters in today. I was able to replace Q16 without any problems and that worked!! Problem solved there with the flashers for the "draw poker"
Q31 was a different story. I posted the pictures. When I removed the transister I found that one of the pins was bent onto the top of board to connect on the top. There must have been damage and that was the only way to make the connections. I put everything back as normal and tried to connect it to the board using solder. The is the first time Ive ever touched a board or done soldering but I thought I would give it a try and that didn't work. Any ideas? Could a guy just use small wires to make that jump connection? Or is there a better way?

Yeah, that's a mess. I would not do what they did by blobbing solder to the broken trace. Basically you need to get a nice stranded wire and cut pieces long enough to go through the hole and then be soldered to where the ENDPOINT of the messed up traces are, bypassing the broken/lifted/fried trace entirely. You want a decently good gauge of wire, but it has to be small enough to fit through the hole twisted up and still leave a little room for the transistor leg(s).

Here's a repair pic I pulled off the internet that is the general idea...
boardrepair-example (resized).jpgboardrepair-example (resized).jpg

You also want to get an old toothbrush and some 91% rubbing alcohol to clean off that globby flux mess left over.

#16 5 years ago

Update: I ordered a new power supply. I found a good deal on a Rottendog for $80 + shipping. I did notice that not all the screws were there for the soundboard so I will plan on replacing all the hardware that hold all the boards in this weekend. There are several missing from other boards as well. I have done some research on how to repair a trace. I think it will be better long term to do that before trying to run jumpers with the wire. I should be able to get to that this weekend. If that doesn't work, I will replace the Q27 pre-driver. It tests out ok but who knows. It looks like a bit of a hack job was done before I got it. Thank you all for the continued help on this project. Much appreciated!

#17 5 years ago

I made an attempt to fix what was done. This didn't fix the problem. I guess the next step is to try and replace the Q27 transistor but I'm pretty sure that is good as it tested fine. It looks like it had been replaced at some point too. I'm wondering if the reason this game was for sale was because of this issue and they couldn't figure it out. If it isn't the Q27 transistor, what else could it be? Are there people who I could send the board out in the mail to have it fixed?

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#18 5 years ago
Quoted from jag8511:

I made an attempt to fix what was done. This didn't fix the problem. I guess the next step is to try and replace the Q27 transistor but I'm pretty sure that is good as it tested fine. It looks like it had been replaced at some point too. I'm wondering if the reason this game was for sale was because of this issue and they couldn't figure it out. If it isn't the Q27 transistor, what else could it be? Are there people who I could send the board out in the mail to have it fixed?

A> That resistor bar past Q27 looks fried. Did you test it?
B> Did you check for continuity from each leg of the new transistor to where it's supposed to go on the board (where the trace that used to be there ends)?

#19 5 years ago

I tried removing the transistor to test it better / just to double check and 1 of the pins broke. I ordered a handful of new ones that should be here monday. Will update the thread after I get a chance to replace it.

I assume that if the resistor bar was fried that none of the other things connected to it would work? As the only thing that doesn't work is the double score blinker and left upper kick out, I'm guessing the bar is ok and it the problem is with the Q31 / Q27. This is my first solid state pin so, I'm still learning. How would I test that bar?

#20 5 years ago

Given that there was some previous work done in the area, you really should check the continuity of the entire circuit. Start at the plug (j11-6) and make sure you have a connection to the transistor. Check every connection back to U19.

#21 5 years ago

I got the new transistor for Q27 in and I put that in the board. No such luck

I'm not sure how to check the continuity of the entire circuit. I attached a picture that is color coded...hopefully, this makes sense. Sorry to be such a noob. This first solid state is beyond me but I'm trying to learn. I placed my MM on continuity and got the following results:

Pink - 726
Blue - 0 with a beep
Purple - 702
Yellow - 1322
Red - 1429

I'm really hoping I don't have to buy a whole new board to fix this issue. Any ideas or things to try?

I also got my new power supply and the machine boots right up. Very nice!

IMG_3266 (resized).jpgIMG_3266 (resized).jpg
#22 5 years ago
Quoted from jag8511:

I tried removing the transistor to test it better / just to double check and 1 of the pins broke. I ordered a handful of new ones that should be here monday. Will update the thread after I get a chance to replace it.
I assume that if the resistor bar was fried that none of the other things connected to it would work? As the only thing that doesn't work is the double score blinker and left upper kick out, I'm guessing the bar is ok and it the problem is with the Q31 / Q27. This is my first solid state pin so, I'm still learning. How would I test that bar?

To test the resistor bar (technically a SIP/resistor network) put your multimeter on Ohm mode, then put the black lead on the common leg and then test the lead on the lead you want to check with the red lead. That one should be 560Ohm, so it should be around that number. You can compare it to the adjacent pins since they should all be 560Ohm on that one.

Also, did you check the actual coil to make sure it will fire and isn't bad? Did you check the resistance of the coil using Ohm lead on your multimeter? Maybe the coil's dead...

This is definitely fixable, but you'll just have to address the problems found one by one. What multimeter are you working with?

#23 5 years ago

I'm putting the MM on 20K under the Ohm section. Can I assume that the common leg on the resistor bar is the one in the middle (marked with the red arrow)? The one that doesn't have any traces leading to it? If so, I got a reading of 5.43 on the MM testing it on the trace that leads from Q27. Did I do that correctly?

I would think that if the coil was bad, that at least the double score lights in the head would still blink as they are controlled by Q31 as well? They do not work either in the game or test mode. As far as I can tell it is only that kicker and those lights that are not working on the whole game.

At what point should I consider just replacing R47 and SR7 as well? Or is that jumping the gun?

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#24 5 years ago
Quoted from jag8511:

I'm putting the MM on 20K under the Ohm section. Can I assume that the common leg on the resistor bar is the one in the middle (marked with the red arrow)? The one that doesn't have any traces leading to it? If so, I got a reading of 5.43 on the MM testing it on the trace that leads from Q27. Did I do that correctly?
At what point should I consider just replacing R47 and SR7 as well? Or is that jumping the gun?

You're looking for 560 Ohm resistance, so you don't want to set it to 20k. Set it to 2000 Ohm range (I use an auto-ranging meter so setting the range is something I forgot about...). I *think* the common leg is the one on the far right (with the white dot on the trace coming off it) as you're looking at the array with the connectors on the bottom. That pin also has an underline below it on the back side, so pretty sure that's common. Test each leg on the array (bar) with the red lead. They all should be coming up 560 Ohm, but that one that leads to the transistor might be blown and give you something else.

Also, does the R47 resistor read 2.7k ohm? (Set the meter to 20k range to test for that one, since 2700 Ohm is above the 2000 range)

#25 5 years ago
Quoted from PinMonk:

You're looking for 560 Ohm resistance, so you don't want to set it to 20k. Set it to 2000 Ohm range (I use an auto-ranging meter so setting the range is something I forgot about...). I *think* the common leg is the one on the far right as you're looking at the array with the connectors on the bottom. Test each leg on the array (bar) with the red lead. They all should be coming up 560Ohm, but that one that leads to the transistor might be blown and give you something else.

Very interesting!! - If I set the MM to 2000 ohms and test using the black lead on the far right (in the picture) and test on every connection on the bar using the red lead, they each read in a range from 1700-1760. Except for the middle that has no trace going to it as well as the trace in question coming from Q27/Q31, they both read a O.

Might that suggest that the resistance bar is bad and needs to be replaced? Out of all the repairs that it looks like have been done on the board regarding Q27/Q31, the SR7 bar has not been replaced. Might be a good place to try next?

#26 5 years ago
Quoted from jag8511:

Very interesting!! - If I set the MM to 2000 ohms and test using the black lead on the far right (in the picture) and test on every connection on the bar using the red lead, they each read in a range from 1700-1760. Except for the middle that has no trace going to it as well as the trace in question coming from Q27/Q31, they both read a O.
Might that suggest that the resistance bar is bad and needs to be replaced? Out of all the repairs that it looks like have been done on the board regarding Q27/Q31, the SR7 bar has not been replaced. Might be a good place to try next?

Set to 20k Ohm range and test R46, R47, R50, R51 and see if your meter is giving good readings before you start unsoldering things.

#27 5 years ago

I get 0.06 on all of those. And I get the same on R49,48,45,44,41,40,37,36...ect. Seems as if they are all ok.

#28 5 years ago
Quoted from jag8511:

I get 0.06 on all of those. And I get the same on R49,48,45,44,41,40,37,36...ect. Seems as if they are all ok.

Something is not right. Either you can't check that resistor in-circuit and get an accurate reading or something is off. R47 should be 2.7k ohm according to the schematics.

#29 5 years ago

It was a cheap tester from Amazon. I just ordered a new one that has auto on it. Hopefully, that will help! I needed to order some parts for an EM machine I'm working on (it is going much better than this one ....) so I went ahead and ordered the SR7 resistor and the U19 chip as well. Just in case and I'll have the parts on hand once I get the new tester. Thanks for sticking with me on this. I'm definitely learning a lot!

#30 5 years ago

I measured SR7 on my board and get 1.76 k on all used legs, the one without traces is just not used. The other resistors (R36 to R51 are 68 ohm resistors and mine measure fine in circuit. Set your meter on the lowest scale you have and you will probably find yours are okay too.

#31 5 years ago

I’m not sure what is going on. If I set my MM to 20k ohms and put the black lead on the far right on SR7 (of the picture) and then go down the line with the red lead I get 1.7,1.7, 1.74, 1.83, 2.7 (on the blank one), 2.7 on the trace from Q27, 1.77, 1.72, 1.72. I assume because it says it should be 2.7k that the resistor bar is ok? Dang, so what next?

#32 5 years ago
Quoted from jag8511:

I’m not sure what is going on. If I set my MM to 20k ohms and put the black lead on the far right on SR7 (of the picture) and then go down the line with the red lead I get 1.7,1.7, 1.74, 1.83, 2.7 (on the blank one), 2.7 on the trace from Q27, 1.77, 1.72, 1.72. I assume because it says it should be 2.7k that the resistor bar is ok? Dang, so what next?

What are R46 and R47 readings? The .6 you got before isn't right.

Powered off, did you test the coil resistance? Set your MM to 200 Ohm and check the coil that's not working. It should be in the 3.9 Ohm range according to the charts online for that coil.

#33 5 years ago

I get a reading of 3.7 on the coil. I know it isn’t the coil because the “double score” flashers don’t work as well. And they are connected to q27 and q31 as well. Unless I’m missing something there. Which is highly possible!

#34 5 years ago
Quoted from jag8511:

I get a reading of 3.7 on the coil. I know it isn’t the coil because the “double score” flashers don’t work as well. And they are connected to q27 and q31 as well. Unless I’m missing something there. Which is highly possible!

Coil's fine. What do R46 and R47 read?

What's the part number of the transistor you put in Q27?

#35 5 years ago

If I set the MM to 200 they read 67.3

#36 5 years ago
Quoted from jag8511:

If I set the MM to 200 they read 67.3

65 Ohm resistors, so that's fine.

What's the part number of the transistor you put in Q27 to replace the one there?

#37 5 years ago

This is a 600 mA and the manual has it needing to be 500 mA. I assumed that as long as it was 500 mA or above it would be correct. However, I do have some 500 mA coming in the mail from Marco's.

Screen Shot 2018-07-17 at 8.33.46 PM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2018-07-17 at 8.33.46 PM (resized).png
#38 5 years ago
Quoted from jag8511:

This is a 600 mA and the manual has it needing to be 500 mA. I assumed that as long as it was 500 mA or above it would be correct. However, I do have some 500 mA coming in the mail from Marco's.

NTE should be fine. 2N4401 is what you want.

Set your multimeter to continuity (it's the one on the lower right of the dial with the triangle with a line through it) and check between these points, checking leg to leg, not board pad to board pad, so you're sure the connection to the resistor/transistor itself is good:

D2-C6
P1-R1
P2-??
P3-D1
P3-RA1
D3-Ground

It was kind of a mental puzzle flipping between traces on the front and back, but I think this is right. You should have continuity between all these points.
jokerz-board (resized).jpgjokerz-board (resized).jpg

#39 5 years ago

D2-C6 - beep
P1-R1 - beep
P2-?? - ?
P3-D1 - beep
P3-RA1 - beep
D3-Ground - beep

#40 5 years ago
Quoted from jag8511:

D2-C6 - beep
P1-R1 - beep
P2-?? - ?
P3-D1 - beep
P3-RA1 - beep
D3-Ground - beep

I need a wider shot of the back of the board to see where P2 goes.

#41 5 years ago

Ah! I follow you. P2 goes to a slot on SR9 and it beeps. So all of them have continuity.

#42 5 years ago
Quoted from jag8511:

Ah! I follow you. P2 goes to a slot on SR9 and it beeps. So all of them have continuity.

Then you're back to U19, the 7408, according to the schematic.

The 7408 next to it is socketed already, so someone blew that one some time in the past. Time for a socket and a new chip at U19.

#43 5 years ago

How do I test that? I do have a replacement for U19 on order. Just in case.

#44 5 years ago
Quoted from jag8511:

How do I test that? I do have a replacement for U19 on order. Just in case.

Did you order a socket? You don't want to solder the replacement 7408 to the board. As long as you're taking it out, put in a socket so it's easier to change in the future.

As far as testing the 7408:
http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=General#Testing_an_integrated_circuit

#45 5 years ago

Yes! I ordered the socket as well. Hopefully, this is the problem.

#46 5 years ago
Quoted from jag8511:

Yes! I ordered the socket as well. Hopefully, this is the problem.

Hopefully you got these kind:
2_54mm_Pitch_SIP_Socket_Connectors (resized).jpg2_54mm_Pitch_SIP_Socket_Connectors (resized).jpg
And not this kind:
socket-bad (resized).jpgsocket-bad (resized).jpg

#47 5 years ago

Unfortunately, I ordered the second as that is what is what Marco's had suggested and is what is currently on the board. Why don't I want the second one?

#48 5 years ago
Quoted from jag8511:

Unfortunately, I ordered the second as that is what is what Marco's had suggested and is what is currently on the board. Why don't I want the second one?

Because it's crappy and it also is harder to diagnose if you have a trace broken or messed up as a result of the installation since the middle is filled in. I'd wait and get the inline ones. Do it right, once.

Did you try any local wichita shops to see if they have these? Google shows this one:

Lloyd's Electronics Inc
Electronic Parts Supplier
Wichita, KS
(316) 262-7472

#49 5 years ago

Is there a way to test U19?

#50 5 years ago
Quoted from jag8511:

Is there a way to test U19?

I gave you the link earler to detailed instructions. Section 15, here. 7408 chip is an Integrated Circuit:

http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=General#Testing_an_integrated_circuit

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