(Topic ID: 170287)
Linked Games
8 Ball
Williams, 1966-
All-Star Basketball
Gottlieb, 1952
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Cue Ball
Williams, 1956
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Cue-T
Williams, 1968
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Derby Day
Gottlieb, 1956
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Fan-Tas-Tic
Williams, 1972
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Freedom EM
Bally, 1976
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Hawaiian Beauty
Gottlieb, 1954
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Quoted from NicoVolta:None of Norm Clark's prior games featured any drop targets
Quoted from NicoVolta:Historically it's a good introductory machine, though it isn't quite like the others in the sense that the distance is so great from the flippers
It is what it is. I had played a Carolina and it was pretty fun. The first flipper game, Humpty Dumpty designed by Harry Mabs had a middle bumper , although not a pop bumper, it was still a bumper that redirects the ball and can be hit with the flippers.
His Lady Robin Hood has two or three depending on how you look at it.
Quoted from NicoVolta:But personally I wouldn't include it in the middle-pop lineup... would you?
It's not a pop bumper, but is certainly a prototype of that style game. I'm not sure they were even using pop bumpers at the time, but besides the kick it is basically the same feature.
The pop bumper on Carolina might be able to knock the ball back up thru one of those rollover lanes, and it is a middle pop bumper that came before all the others you have written about. So I figured I'd mention it so credit could be given where credit was due.
LRH is not a pop bumper, just a preview of what was to come.
Quoted from NicoVolta:The thing about Carolina is that it really isn't like all the ones which followed in terms of gameplay. The proximity of the lower pop is so far away from the flippers (and separated by lanes) that the chances of the ball returning to the flippers after it falls down there is very low.
You showed pics and metioned games that had all different proximities and locations of the middle pop bumper to the flippers. Especially on the early models. All I mentioned is which one was first.
I guess if Carolina doesn't have a middle pop bumper than neither does Score Board or Derby Day for that matter.
No worries. I just did some more research and the pop bumper was relatively new at the time. If IPDB is correct, the first game to have one was Williams Saratoga in 1948.
So hats off to Harry, for breaking the ice, and being the first to install that wonderful device.
I like to be a club member and looking around it was the closest thing I have.
Until I can find an 8-Ball. It can't be that harder to find one than it was getting an Eager beaver.
Quoted from NicoVolta:Check out Norm Clark's first game he did with Williams... 1962 King Pin. Single up-kicker between the flippers and almost the same spacing as the Spanish Eyes/Fan-Tas-Tic/Freedom (and "Miss Adventure") layout.
Very similar to Arrow Head. A game from five years earlier.
This one's cool because you have to nudge it as it's coming out the kicker without tilting it or it will go in the center gobble hole. Unless it's lit for specials then you want it to drop.
9 months later
Yeah, it's hard to believe this thread went this long without anybody mentioning Rose Bowl. As far as I know, after Carolina this would have been the second game with a middle pop.
It should also be mentioned that the pop bumper (thumper bumper) itself debuted on Williams Saratoga in 1948.
1 year later
Quoted from AlexF:1950 Marchant Palm Beach. The most well known 1950 French middle pop game out there.
Gotta give credit where credit is due. It may not predate Carolina who the OP says does not qualify, but it certainly predates Rose Bowl and All Star Basketball.
Quoted from AlexF:I guess the real question is that a pop bumper or dead bumper?
From another angle it certainly looks like a metal ring on that bumper.
image-7 (resized).jpg
Quoted from AlexF:Yes, and the playfield wear around it suggests the same. Neat find.
Anything to show these young bucks what's really up. 
Quoted from NicoVolta:I’m only one person when it comes to having an opinion about Carolina. To me, it doesn’t quite make the cut... but....
Doesn't really matter to me now!
Perhaps we should be discussing the origin of metal flipper bats instead.
3 weeks later
Quoted from DennisK:The middle-pop article is now live at Pinball News. Here is the link:
https://www.pinballnews.com/site/2018/08/30/middle-pop-pinball/
I read the article and with the rules you set down-
1. The game must have at least two flippers. Check
2. A pop bumper must exist between the lowest two flippers, and this pop bumper must: Check
a. Be horizontally centered between the lowest two flippers. Check
b. Can occupy a range of vertical positioning, so long as the pop bumper is not so high as to not have at least a portion of the mechanism at the same level as the lowest flippers. Check
c. Be able to reasonably return the ball into the field of play (posts, lane guides, and similar obstructions would disqualify a game from consideration). Bumper is in field of play with two kick out holes still lower than that, so check
d. As the name implies, must be an active bumper (passive bumpers do not count). Check
It still all comes back to United's Carolina from 1949.
I've played one and it's real fun, but it is what it is.
How this one would not get the credit as the prototype and inspiration for all those that followed is beyond me.
1 week later
Quoted from zacaj:Is that an upwards kicking hole?
Don't know. But even though it predates Palm Beach, I was waiting to see if the rule makers of this little game would say if it is disqualified or not.
Quoted from DennisK:the game has hockey-stick flippers, which obviously those little flippers are not. I saw a 2009 Pinball News article
Yes, they are called "flippers" or referred to as "flipper action" labeled on the game , but obviously do not pivot and operate like slingshots or kickers instead, whether they are button controlled or not, as you can see the slot in the middle where the paddle operates.
By your logic, then all games that had what was referred to at the time as Thumper Bumpers, Jet Bumpers, or even Active Bumpers instead of Pop Bumpers or going by any other name should also be disqualified.
Here is another from April 1949 with nothing that I can tell could be mistaken as flippers lower than the other two. "Madame Butterfly"
image-1 (resized).jpg
Quoted from DennisK:For me, these are flippers, and thus the game is clearly not remotely a middle-pop title.
Then as mentioned neither are any of the other games that did not use pop bumpers, but used thumper bumpers or jet bumpers instead. It's all relative to how particular you want to be.
Note the flyer for Majorettes or even Saratoga, the first game with such a device. There is no mention of them having a "pop bumper".
Quoted from DennisK:I've always gone with a definition similar to IPDB's on flippers, "Those thingies that move when you hit the flipper buttons. Some people use these to propel the pinball."
For me, the key factor is if they are user controlled, not the label the manufacturer applied. This could lead into an interesting discussion about what should or shouldn't count as a flipper
To further confuse your issue, here is a list of games that use flippers that are not user controlled, but are called flippers just the same.
https://www.ipdb.org/search.pl?ft=automatic+flippers&sortby=name&searchtype=advanced
Stated in the description of Holiday on ipdb- "Flippers (4, 2 are automatic flippers)"
Whatever.
So, does Madame Butterfly qualify as a middle pop game or is there something there that would disqualify it as well?
Quoted from DennisK:I'm going to step back now to let other voices have the floor, since I think anyone following along knows where I'm falling on this topic by now.
Yeah,
All I'm pointing out is there are several examples that may or may not be considered to fit the bill depending on how you look at things.
I see in them pop or thumper or even jet bumpers, between and below the flippers, and some are certainly more in the "middle" of the playfield than many of the others examples here, and predate them as well.
1 week later
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