I'm not touching that one, so to speak, haha! You meant a penis "plunge her" with that one, right?

Sounds like everything I've heard about the military, prison, and of course....pirate ships! It's just what happens when you remove, forceably so, a female populace. Sounds rough, and chaffing. Guard those pinballs crew!

Font usage is my biggest issue with Houdini, and the animations and LCD art being fairly choppy, and having proportion issues and just seeming somewhat crude. The table layout and art, and blade art is all excellent, but other than the Seance gal on the LCD, there's a lot of polish that could be applied. This is where I feel JJP somewhat does things best presently, though the floating dancing scarecrow and other characters, still get on my nerves. The Hobbit is simply sublime though.

You're always such a helpful and positive guy Lloyd. For working for another company, yet stressing your love of the medium, and wishing good success and fun for all....is always a delight to see in these various threads!

Total side note, I was installing Cliffy's last night, and did exactly what you said regarding getting the playfield ALLLLLL the way out before lifting, and voila, no worries or fallen playfield! (Next time I just have to make sure to ball eject all the balls prior to working on it, haha! Just didn't figure I'd need to lift it, but once I started working, that fourth rail screw needed loosened.)

You're the man Lloyd!

I'm not surprised to hear that at all! You're a very forthright, experienced, and amiable person, and your exuberance and appreciation of the medium, as well as it's many fans and makers, is readily apparent to those of us on, and surely off, this forum.

I'd say regardless of what's occurring behind closed doors, allowing the Munsters some breathing room is good for that pin, as well as Oktoberfest. Allowing each new game some time to shine, and people to discuss and enjoy it, helps the market rather than hinder it.

Personally I'd prefer one pin per company per year, and maybe two from Stern. I think that would allow market growth to develop slowly, while lessoning oversaturation.

Oh man!!! That's all really exciting news Josh!

I'm so glad API has chosen another unlicensed theme, and a really colorful and fun one at that! It's always such a refreshing take on rules, gameplay, and overall design anesthetics. Definitely on my list of pins to look forward to this year, and hopefully buy, woo-hoo...!

You don't dig Cliffys?

I'm doing this install currently.... Wish all companies put them in.

I'd love the option to have this installed at factories. Doing the shooter lane the other night, and the eject, was pretty challenging for a first time owner. Not to mention nerve wracking.

LTG is never intrusive! I was watching your panel from Chicago this past fall with my friend the other night. Your insights and carefree attitudes are a sight to behold. That video to rosh had me cracking up too!

I just saw this on facebook too!!!!

So what's the Twilight Zone incident about..?

Yikes. Yeah, forum politics and decorum can often be a weird thing for sure. I wonder why no one posted after you had? Seems like you guys have ironed things out since, which is good! I definitely do remember the keyboard note, haha!

Well I hope all of you can enjoy some beers and Oktoberfest at TPF in a few weeks together!

Poor bees, but good for making honey hands.

That's the weird thing, the playfield art and backglass have been so nice!

Cheers to everyone's hard work! This is most excellent news!

That makes more sense. As much as I like the characters, reading "Oktob..." could diminish the draw towards the game name.

If Mustache Girl gets canned from employment, she might have to upgrade to Bearded Lady status to make ends meet, and that would be an entirely higher level of freaky deeky.

Long live Mustache Girl!

Hmm, Loni Anderson steps into the backglass? Definitely a different illustration there.

I really like that there's artwork on the apron near the drain! And the hands on the apron are a nice touch too!

API has consistent and really nice artwork all over their games. This looks really playful and fun! Can't wait to get to give it a go!

Regarding the music, having watched a solid hour of streaming throughout the day, it felt like there was one dominant track in particular.

The animations really need fleshed out. I like the ideas, and some of the transitions, but for what's being aspired to on screen, many things appear primitive. With Houdini, it somewhat fit the time period, but seeing one man walk about in the main game area, didn't look good at all, and the animations throughout are stilted.

When a stein is selected, I'd love to see an animation of it quickly flung down a bar, rather than see the weird urine looking gaussian blur blob behind it. The ideas are really sound, they just need executed a few levels higher than they are currently. Being that the screen was so large in the stream, I genuinely couldn't take my eyes off of it, and focus on the gameplay, that's how glaring these issues are to someone with a background in illustration.

I have the least issue with table layout, sans playing it. All of the playfield still looks pleasant and whimsical, which is a nice change up from modern pin aesthetics.

Also, Otto constantly being a static image feels barren and lifeless. If even not just a static image, at least a drop shadow behind him or him cropped in, rather than floating about on the screen.

Purple fonts with black strokes need to really disappear. There were peculiar stroke and font colors in Houdini that often clashed for me or were gaudy and way too vibrant, and lacking any animation or transitions within the coloration of the text. For excellent font usage and animation, refer to JJP with their work on Pirates.

I feel like the playfield art, layout, and many aspects of API's work has been very, very impressive thus far, but to compete toe to toe with JJP, the GUI and animation work needs a much, much higher level. Music has issues, and can be balanced down the road, but the impressions of the backglass graphic work will set an immediate and somewhat unpleasant impression to anyone that plays this pin.

API needs to knock this out of the park, as Houdini was such a fantastic freshman effort, but Oktoberfest needs to take this to another level to compete with JJP. Stern has and will always have their own piece of the pie, and for JJP or API to cut into that, they both need to create solid and consistent games.

Looking forward to seeing more at TPF!

Thanks for noting my opinion @Yelobird, you and your wife certainly need to have a grasp on visual design to do what you both do so well with mods!

I want API to smash this out of the park, and be right there with Stern and JJP, but there are some rough visuals that need tended to, to put them on par with those two. And those two certainly have issues with all of their animations as well.

I think POTC being streamlined without clips, allowed them to focus on a core idea, and make it as polished as they possibly could. Lord knows, Dialed-In has incredible polish in it's LCD work, but some of those character designs and animations are not nearly as smooth as those incredible skulls, pistols, flames, etc in POTC. Both Dialed-In and Oktoberfest are creating worlds visually in ways that are new to pinball, and for that I applaud all of those creators!

Pinball needs as high a production level visually in animation and font design, as any video game, ad, film, etc out there now. These companies aren't just competing with each other, but a visual standard across media industries globally.

I was, well I already said, that a page or two back regarding these two games specifically. Played some POTC yesterday, and those animations are always so exciting to see, no matter how many.....(or few given I suck) times I see them.

API does such an overwhelmingly great job in so many ways, but this is a literal night and day difference in this regard. I really hope they improve this aspect over time.

.......aaaaaaand $5800 for most Stern Pro's, where they've finally caught up to JJP in this regard. The Beatles is pricier, sure, but looks very, very meticulous with font design, image integration, and animations. The Munsters has many clips supplementing it's art package, but the created animations look polished, as do fonts. Not perfect or JJP level, but professional quality.

Interestingly enough, I played the Beatles with so much crowd noise the other night, and I lost nearly any appeal to connect with the game. For different games, specific aspects DO tie into game enjoyment. If the ship cannon isn't firing or the Black Pearl isn't rocking in POTC, yes that would have an effect on enjoyment. Just as if these animations aren't of a higher quality, they will detract from the high quality work on the playfield and cabinet. It's all one package, and once an LCD is integrated into that package, whether you personally don't look at it frequently while playing, you definitely will more so while playing with a friend.

And whether a Stern is lower priced, API is mid, and JJP high, there IS parity when these machines sit next to each other in a pinball friendly environment. You'll see and compare, sans acknowledgement of price. Certainly non pinball folks will, without ever getting into the minutiae that goes on in this forum.

Makes the most sense to wait for TPF for further insights on how this game has developed. At this point we know art and code isn't final, and most likely art will be more so in two weeks when many here get to see it in person for the first time.

I just wish I could be there too first-hand!

Did they change the name of Level 257...? I was there a few years back for Pac-Man's 35th birthday.

The bumper car riders are still gone, and the American Pinball sticker is back to a white background.

Did you play it?

If it in anyway realistically looked like the main Otto, it would be less cute, and bizarre looking I'd say, not in a gufaw gufaw way either.

Oooh thanks to you both for your impressions! Going to have to go nag over in the Helicon Brewing thread to see when we'll get one in there!

That's a shame about the name change. I guess Level 257 was too obtuse for people outside of arcade gaming.

I was thinking earlier, I know a pin is a total design package of team pride for all of you working on it at length, but in the same sense in a way to allow the original design to exist, as well as people's desires for different music selections, could an option be coded in for random or direct playlist selection to be added by the home user via the usb stick? Allow the original song selection to exist, and also an option to weave in Chicken Dance or more polka, Danish Death Metal, whathaveyou, via the main interface at startup or from within the menu system in the coin door?

Very strong presence for Oktoberfest with you and Marty tonight Josh! I really loved the amber beer GI lighting post ball drain. Things are really coming together nicely!

Should be available in the TPF Twitch recent streams.

https://m.twitch.tv/search?term=texas%20pinball%20festival&category=vods

Now I need to go watch and be nauseated by that review....

Has anyone been talking about the ridiculous shit Franci did with his "joke" to his Stern cohort/compatriot Yeti? Man, I'm so glad no one else in this industry behaves like that. It was embarrassing and truly unfunny, and so many other artists might have valued that TWIPY.

Thank you for the clarification. I definitely bought into it thinking it was an inside joke between the two of them, and a real trophy.

Doesn't mean it was funny though, at least to me anyway. Andy Kaufman, he is not.

Still rings to me of the overall "attitude" I feel from anyone representing Stern, smug and arrogant. Anyone not in on this inside "joke", would see this as a slight, and this is a small enough industry where more class than hijinks would do it well.

Oh well.

But Jeff wasn't responsible for the animations in Houdini, and I assume Oktoberfest as well.

I've been out of art school for two decades now, don't work in the illustration field I majored in, yet I still wouldn't find this level of LCD font usage and "animation" acceptable in a portfolio, much less an art based package for a hobby based interest in the thousands of dollars. This aspect, and this alone, to me, separates American Pinball from being on a toe to toe level with JJP.

To a point, art is subjective. To a point. But this is just a plain poor usage of odd color complementary usage and font size and choice, awkward and stilted poorly visualized animated figures, and most of all that dog prepping nervously to go down the slides, looks more like an anxious goat than a dashshund.

I adore API's build quality, code work, table layout , sound design, table and cab art, but the LCD animation and balance is beyond poor, and I'm more sad about that than irked.

Josh, I really respect your passion for your work, your dedication to API and it's vision, and I've watched and listened to many interviews you've done, and appreciated your attitude and work on both Houdini and Oktoberfest, but people feeling contrary to the animation and font use in these two games, isn't based in vitriol or hate mongering. It's based on us wanting to see API succeed, and wanting to buy a better, more polished, and overall "best of the industry" level product from your company. People vocalizing in thoughtful ways, how API could improve one specific aspect in their presentation, is entirely different than deconstructing and being overly harsh on every single aspect of your game designs. This idea of animation quality and font usage has been echoed by multiple users across two different products. It hasn't been done in a way that negates the entirety of your games, rather specific aspects we're, to be honest, begging to be adjusted so we could hail API as a viable competitor to both JJP and Stern.

To me, those attitudes don't speak of animosity, rather goodwill and ideally, a desire to WANT to spend more towards your creations, not less.

I definitely agree with this attitude, but as much as people seem to take issue with Dialed In for it's theme not appealing to them, there are specific aspects to Oktoberfest that aren't appealing, that could more easily be corrected than DI.

I'm still anxious to play, but I'm less anxious to buy.

I'd say not being blind to it isn't accurate, Josh is vocalizing it's defense via the argument animators have contacted him, and stated it's not an issue for them. Not being blind would be acknowledging there are issues, wanting to correct them down the road, and making sure the next LCD animation package is of a much higher quality.

I'd say it's definitely not changing, yes, and as a result there are definitely also some select people not buying for home use. How many at this point, we have no idea. I hope to play it soon, and have a better idea personally how I feel about it overall.

I'm assuming the fantastic Seance image is his, maybe the goldfish, and the hands waving over the hat. Even there, it's more a static image than animation. Those images alone stand out eerily compared to the Houdini and Bess frames, which I assume are not his figure renderings. Those look like odd paper doll cutouts, both misproportioned and stilted in movement.

(Edit:. Seems I'm incorrect on some of what I was inferring about up above. Just to clarify, I was guessing on some of these based on style, and was incorrect.)

I don't understand this approach. How much could a really proficient animator/artist charge to get their vision properly aligned with the existing art package, several thousand dollars....under twenty thousand? To improve leaps and bounds, that's not a drastic amount to place towards a more polished product. Especially when you're asking $7400 from consumers by the hundreds, and ideally thousands of customers.

Great package design pays for itself with the success it will bring. Potentially lost sales won't. The real risk is...not...paying someone to come in and make this idea entirely cohesive in a way that compliments the already outstanding product package, rather than hinder it.

If API is asking that much money from it's customers, we deserve the best we can receive from them. Over $7K for a product that's entirely gratuitous for home owners, isn't a small asking price. It's quite exorbitant, and for most people half the price, or a bit less, of an automobile.

The issues exist also not just with animations, but also screen layout and type usage.

That start up skill shot screen, with the entire half of the right screen being black, with ALL that negative space, kills me every time I see it. I thought it was a placeholder graphic in October, but it keeps showing up time and time again....

I'm a current API customer. My opinion isn't more valid, but a possible repeat customer is definitely one to listen to in some capacity. What people like myself are stating isn't unreasonable, and the budget for a cohesive art package isn't as well, again when customers are being asked for more than $7K.

For me, the strength of the backglass, theme integration, and LCD usage is exactly the reason I want to buy The Hobbit from JJP. The gameplay isn't at the same level for me, but having one strength doesn't entirely diminish the other. In this case though, the LCD usage will do exactly the opposite for me, than the Hobbit. I wasn't incredibly keen on Houdini's LCD and font usage, but I appreciated enough aspects otherwise to make my very first pinball purchase from API.

To state the LCD has minimal value to a pinball player, suggests why even have a backglass or given amount of any information? Why not just have a headless machine with some minor score counter ala Cirqus Voltaire?

Why do cars even need extra trim, paint that has an appealing aesthetic, etc?

Regarding budgets Stern Pro's are substantially cheaper, and offer more cohesive art packages. I don't really like Yeti or Franchi's work, but I can still acknowledge how it fits the entire design, and gels with their theme usage.

And where or why on Earth are we insinuating that API is a broke ass startup? I'd imagine Spooky has far, far more risk involved, and as much as I was indifferent on their prior art packages, ACNC is genuinely quite impressive via the LCD usage.

And regarding budget, the consumer's budget also needs to be weighed in. At least four, maybe five companies by year's end are offering new games, and an enthusiast only has so much cash to spend on this hobby. So when competition is thick, these elements you personally may feel are minor, become MAJOR to other possible buyers. I've bought two pins this past year, which is crazy for me, can't buy one anytime in the next few months, so when I can....will my next pin go towards this game being a few months old at that point, or a new title by any other company or even an older game?

I think CGC starts at $6K. Stern's at $5600/5800, Spooky was $6K now $6400, and JJP base at $8500.

It's a tough sell for any game past a few thousand really. For me, anything past $2-3K seems like an irrational purchase. So once we're at the $5K and up range, it's all bananas and to me.

My second pin was POTC literally a week ago, and that's $2K over this, well the LE I bought. It's a non-sensical number for someone making sub $100K, but the game resonated on so many levels the price became secondary.....aside from the mass amounts of overtime I've been doing, never did that much prior to this hobby.

I think Deeproot will exist by year's end, and they have All Star levels of talent to knock this industry for a loop. Whether they pull through, who knows, but clearly massive potential is there, and what if they offer high quality and polish for sub Stern prices, like they're suggesting they will?

And your opinion matters as much as mine! It's just matter of where and if we spend our buccos here, there or over that way, and API, JJP, Stern, etc need to give heed to those voices, and they definitely do, in their own ways.

You seem like a rational and good natured person. Glad to have a back and forth with you.

I'd offer free art, but they most likely don't want mine even for free!

10399291_17631215207_5456_n (resized).jpg

I guess I just don't care about Stern's approach to pinball design to jump into that particular throng that deeply to discuss those issues. For me, I've detailed my points because I WANT to buy Oktoberfest, and wish specific elements, (which are not in anyway unachievable goals to strive towards) were improved upon significantly with their second game.

Other than tight shot layout, LCD usage was the primary point of conflict people took issue with on Houdini. It seems with Oktoberfest, possibly half of that equation has been improved upon, and the other half made more glaring via API's ambitious and admirable concepts for this game.

I think I'll jump off this dead horse until I get some play in, and even at that point, it's all a bit moot.

I mentioned the option of using the original theme's music or...crazy idea...allowing the user to insert their own playlist via usb, and resolve that issue entirely that so many seem to have.

I never saw a single comment to that idea, yet the issue still exists.

That's an abysmal mess of a game, but fortunately there is hope for Oktoberfest, not for America's Most Haunted.

I think there's a great deal of valid points here, but I find it ironic coming to the "defense" of someone that's been fairly outspoken about another game and creator's art package in well, less than delicate ways, and multiple times as well, unprovoked. I say this as someone also that has also been highly critical of Oktoberfest, and I'd be more than fine stating my artwork is poor or underdeveloped, if I decide the critique others.

I agree with Ben about the wrist angle, diagonals create more excitement for sure, but not as much about the broken bone he sees in that image.

I think tact, and being fairly careful about wording hasn't happened in several of his posts, (Being really blunt might fly smoother if any of us were ON the art team) so of course his work is given scrutiny as well. That's okay, as much as it is to be critical, in delicate and compassionate ways, towards API's work or your own on Alien.

We're all learning here...

P.S. I also definitely agree with your points regarding AMH's compelling footnote in pinball history, as other countless games deserve kudos as well, but that doesn't deny that people might view that art package as crude, not elegant, and unpleasing to the eye. That said, ACNC is really damn good, and most likely AMH paved the way for that really excellent art package.

Sure, but that wrist has come up at least two, three or more times. At that point, the issue of that specific art element becomes one more of one person's ego pressing outwards in a way that's more demanding to be acknowledged and "right" than helpful, and at a further point, unless you're on that development team, it becomes a matter of disrespect, emphasizing time and time again, that your vision is more valid than the creative team at work. (This is where I personally feel I need to be delicate in wording and tone. Do I want my ideas received and valued or to insult someone I admire?)

This entire board is about ego. Me typing this opinion is ego based. I'm taking your time in you reading this message, and hoping in some capacity you value my thoughts, as much I value yours when I read your thoughts. In that regard it's more a matter of respect, superceding what we find accurate artistically or critically.

I'm not familiar with the flack you took for Alien. I've only just seen an unboxing recently. I'd definitely want to understand your design process, the experience you had, and why people chose to see things critically in shitty ways more than constructive. But then again, I'm a bit new here, as you and you alone have mentioned a couple of times now, so maybe the approach of asking questions first and wanting to empathize, is lessoned as time goes by, and experience accrued, on forums like this.

You know Ben, I'd pay you that compliment, among others, if you weren't so keen on beating me, and everyone else to the punch yourself.

Man, I do really like the energy of the cabinet artwork for Oktoberfest and Houdini!

I entirely agree with both of your critiques, and I'd say everyone on this thread has provided some good suggestions. I think just after a point of pounding down the same issues, it feels more like "my way is the right way" versus accepting and respecting the design choices by a crew we're not a part of. Doesn't mean we're not trying to be helpful, but at this point, unless anyone is staffed or contracted, it feels like more shade is being thrown at the game than praise, and this close to launch...that doesn't feel fun/celebratory.

I really think if some typography changes were made/tweaked, the entire package might feel more smoothed out and polished, and something like that could be very easily modified and cheap to do, versus redoing entire animations.

Either way, I'm pretty psyched to get to play Oktoberfest, (JJP5), and the new Black Knight this friday at MGC!!!!

And Ben, I really can't imagine the process of how Spooky started, and I'm sure you have some compelling stories, and learned a lot during that process, and like Aurich mentioned, I know I wasn't around firsthand to see any of those things develop on here as they occurred.

I don't even own the game, but I'm excited by all of these fantastic responses!

No you wouldn't. Trust me, you wouldn't....

I think it's really just incompetent, bland, and uninteresting at best/worst.

Caught this sneaky lil guy on the artwork the other night. This one's for you LTG !

20190513_163508 (resized).jpg

Yup. I thought it was a funny nod to the unveil, and something I knew Lloyd would get a kick out of!

Monkey needs more sauce. More sauce!!!

He's not so sold on Wonka anymore. He has seen the error of his hype ways, and well...the game not being what he hoped it to be, I'd say.

Kaneda.

He rescinded it. Not sure who his source was, but at least her corrected himself. I'll listen to episodes on my way into work. He's sensational and engaging. It's okay for people to like different things, and have different views. Last time I checked.

That said, as an owner of a Houdini, I'm glad that info was incorrect. I hope another game by Joe is revealed sooooooon!

Posting this in a few topics, feel free to share.

I was concerned about Cliffy, due to his relative proximity to the current California fires and power outages, and he replied as such.

"I’m sorry but nothing going out right now as power has been cut, no internet, no way to print shipping labels. We are smothered in smoke and surrounded by fires and non-stop 50mph winds. Please let everyone know cliffys is down right now and could be a few more days without power
Sincerest apologies."

Thanks!